SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I do think the point you are making is worth underlining though. What happens after betrayal is very different. You were the one bringing home your paycheck, helping with the house and kids, putting your effort in. You accepted the less sex, remained faithful. Then, she gave the sex to someone else with really nothing in return. He didn't have to do any real work for it. It makes you feel foolish for accepting what you accepted. I get it. So, new boundaries and expectations for the marriage are put up.

Not to mention, regardless if you are a BW or a BH, your spouse went out and made someone else more important than you. To even begin to heal that particular wound, the wayward really needs to prove to you it's YOU they really want. That they will choose you and your needs. They will give you effort and enthusiasm. And, if they won't then what really is the point?

hikingout, you DO truly get it.

I love your posts.

And this just fucking pains me...

I was nasty with my husband because I had this insane idea that if I were choosing to only have sex with him, I'd make sure it was a good time.

Many of us men can't even fathom having this and still going out to chase tail. <head.just.shaking>

Well... that's because you're not WHs, you're BHs, right?

It wasn't until I came to SI (unfortunately) are started reading about other's married sex lives that I realized my WH and I were probably not the norm -- sex multiple times a week (multiple times in a day if we could pull it off with two little kids in the house -- no easy feat), different locations in the house, different positions, oral, anal, toys, regular bjs just for fun...

But a guy who's wife is a freak in bed and will give him all the sex he wants (which I realize is a lot of the BW's here, and I'm just so sorry for you; you're doing the right thing and getting the wrong results)?? What the heck is wrong with that guy?

Yeah... I mean, that's what I thought, too, and was kind of in denial that he would be having sex with his COW AP, who was not pretty, was a decade older than him, and was literally at least twice his size. But...

And that proves my point that it isn't about us.

^^^^^This.^^^^^ At the time she promised him NSA sex. He was so flattered because (as he said once during his A), how could she resist him? To which I replied, there's nothing attractive about a man that's willing to cheat on his wife. I also pointed out that, for most women, getting NSA sex from single men is easy, and if she had to go after married men to get that, there was a reason. That wounded his ego a little bit.

She told him he was a great father! A wonderful man! He deserved to go out and have fun and his wife didn't want to go out with him. She said his wife was always telling him what to do and trying to control him. In reality, I was at home with a colicky infant, and me texting him to find out when he was coming home was because I was trying to help the oldest with homework, while getting dinner ready, while holding an infant that would wail for hours and I felt like I was drowning and needed his help to take care of his children. But I digress.

During his A, he described his AP as this wonderful, fun, caring woman, that was his best friend. She only wanted him to be happy. She had had a really hard life and just needed a friend, and WH was that person who was going to make everything better.

Now he looks back and is repulsed he found her attractive -- he rationalized it as ugly girls need love, too, and by paying attention to her, it was almost like a good deed.

She physically assaulted him when he ended the A. She got me on the phone and verbally assaulted and threatened me before WH interceded. She causes drama at work and makes things uncomfortable when they run into each other with other coworkers around (like very loudly and obnoxiously saying hi to everyone but ignorning WH).

And he says the sex wasn't even that great. It was pretty standard missionary + BJs. She wasn't as flexible and because of her size he actually was scared of having her on top.

He looks back now and says she could have been anyone that showed him attention because he was depressed, and instead of realizing his problems were coming from within, he blamed his unhappiness on me and the kids holding him back. It wasn't until I kicked him out and he was living with her that he realized all his problems were the same, except now he was living with his AP who suddenly wasn't so fun, was worried he was gonna cheat on her, and jealous of the time be spent with his kids.

There's a reason Bangbus isn't filmed in a sports car.

I have no idea what bangbus is. Should I Google it?

No.

[This message edited by ibonnie at 10:16 AM, May 1st (Wednesday)]

I feel like maybe I shouldn't weigh in here as my post in the R forum may have prompted this thread and many think I'm plan B and should be filing for D. But anyway.

Any of us who have had multiple sexual partners can critically think of ways that a past partner may have been better than our spouse in a certain way. Better at oral, better proportions, more adventurous . Certainly that was the case for me in some of those areas. There are even people who might be better at other emotional aspects like affirming us or listening to us. Our life partner isn't perfect but we want them to be the best person choice. We want and desire more love and desire from them and exclusivity. And the A steals so much of that.

As someone who is "the minivan" right now with a WS still in the fog it hurts a lot. She has promised to work toward complete healing and removal from her psyche of a man the she still has as much "love" for as me. The man she screwed is younger, taller and better looking than me. I can't change that. But he's also as toxic and unreliable as can get.

I know she's attracted to me, can I accept that another man is "more physically attractive" time will tell. And nothing like limerence and dopamine from the A puts the "beer goggles" onto attractiveness.

Even as the "minivan," sex has been way better since D-day (a turbo charged minivan perhaps with fun accessories), better than the A sex at times according to my WS, and now better than my previous partners. We're also more authentic and open perhaps to a fault since then.

But as the minivan, I too am proud that I've given my family and well-off lifestyle. And glad that my WS doesn't want to D and run away with half of it with the AP.

But ultimately being Plan B in any way isn't sustainable long term. The A makes us all Plan B at least temporarily.

R is about working toward being plan A again and if it doesn't work, it's not worth going through the motions as a long term plan B. I choose wanting to be Plan A again as long as she does the work to make that happen.

And finally, again in defense of vans. I was conceived in one back in the 70s. Try that in a Ferrari!

I don't feel like plan A or B. The posts that say I'd rather they chose me because they can't keep their hands off of me hit me hard. My wife and I had incredible sex by her own admission the AP doesn't do it for her. I'm reliable with a good job and I have always taken care of her. She's told me that I'm an incredible partner and have been so amazing but yet I'm not good enough. I do NOT get it. Not plan A or B and she finds me sexy and reliable and good sex...so WTF

This. Aside from being young, dumb and pregnant a huge reason why I married my WH is because I couldn't keep my hands off of him. Still can't, despite everything. Logically speaking, he's not the best looking guy, not super tall, in decent shape when he works out but naturally a little bit husky... but we have amazing chemistry, mind blowing sex, and we can't keep our hands off of each other.

None of this made any sense to me! To all of a sudden think he found his soulmate in an ugly older woman that was broke because she was a shopaholic and lived at home with her parents and her adult daughter.

But... affairs don't make sense. And the more you try to look at it logically, the more you drive yourself crazy.

One thing my WH has said post-A is that he was depressed, he didn't see the problem was himself, and deep down he felt like I was too good for him and he could never live up to my expectations (which were really all things he was thinking, I never made any demands of him). Whereas his AP just wanted to drink and party and have a good time, and that's where he head was at, and what he thought he deserved at the time. Maybe your WS has similar feelings? Like they're not good enough for you, but they're good enough for a crappy AP?

And glad that my WS doesn't want to D and run away with half of it with the AP.

Isn't this backwards? Shouldn't she be the one that's happy that you didn't pack all her shit and drop it all off along with her at the AP's house?

If she wanted to run away with him, but stayed with you bc he's unreliable, she's not doing youany favors, brother.

NotthemanIwas,

I was agreeing with you. I said the WS has to do the proving. Whatever the "proving" is.

I was saying that the reason that the women speak up is because they see crass = unloving. All I was saying is that it isn't loving. The love was destroyed by the WS. You aren't going to get loving words from a person who does not feel the love. I am not saying they even should at that point. The crassness of it is the bitterness of the betrayal.

Sorry, I think you misinterpreted my post. But, I do think that what I said about at some point that the rest of the debt has to be cleared, I am not talking in the beginning. No, I am really speaking to those who might be stuck in this mode years and years out. At some point, you just have to call it. Either you want to divorce and realized late that it was a dealbreaker, or you need to find a way to become happy together again. I know that you have said "real life shit" keeps you from doing that now. I just think at some point in time, that "real life shit" will not outweigh the need to find happiness for one or both of you.

But, no I wasn't talking to new BS's on that point and I didn't specify.

"Isn't this backwards? Shouldn't she be the one that's happy that you didn't pack all her shit and drop it all off along with her at the AP's house?

If she wanted to run away with him, but stayed with you bc he's unreliable, she's not doing youany favors, brother."

She has thanked me on multiple occasions for sticking with her. And the A was always on the premise she wouldn't run away with him.

But yeah D-day I rushed to "pick me" and "oh I'm so glad you picked staying with me and never leaving me for him" vs. GTF out, I'm not sure. Which certainly could limit the gratitude.

***posting as a member

Guys in the modern world we aren't allowed to express masculine traits the same way our fathers did. Just about anything in the space is too easily written off as, "toxic masculinity," much like women can be branded as slaves to their emotions. The problem is that parts of that previous generations perceptions have stuck around. This contradiction leaves a lot of men very insecure about their roles in the world. The expectations with none of the excuses creates a very fragile imbalance. We have to be strong and at the same time emotional available. Honestly how many women say that they want an emotionally available man, yet are turned off by that at the same time? Not all women of course, but it does happen. Most guys say they'd love to have a freak for a wife, but in practice is that what they really want? Someone who can't hold a conversation and appreciate life outside of the bedroom ? I doubt that would last either.

I say this all the time. To some men, maybe even a lot of me, respect is very big deal. It is pre-requisite to love and feeling valued. If your H does not feel respected you don't really have "him." What most men I speak with is that we want to be valued for more than the sum of our parts. We want to respected and loved for beyond what we provide our wives and families. You can do that after a Divorce too. Why stay M'd at all ? Why be M'd at all ?

After Day I felt like a sperm donor, wallet, handy man and babysitter. Those were things my W valued for sure, but it all was directly tied to what I could do for her. Selfishness led to me being taken for granted. She did not respect me. I felt less loved. She in turn noticed the absence of that warmth. If she somehow could get all of those things without having me being there then what was unique to me that made me special to her? It is not very affirming that most of those things could be outsourced. I was replaceable. I think a lot of men even before fidelity carry that insecurity around. We don't feel the permanence anymore.

So the one thing that allows me to feel more than the sum of those parts is that my W genuinely wants to be intimate with me in both physical and emotional spaces. She would miss me if I was no longer there. Prior to Dday we swapped services. I provided a whole host of services and she had sex with me. Healthy? No.

The fact that she willingly wanted to have sex with me at least gave me a little evidence that she like me for me and not what I could give her. I wanted to believe that she loved me for who I am.

I know you said husbands versus betrayed husbands, but my point stands is that all husbands want to be respected by their wife. We all want to see evidence that our wifes really like our company and that they are sexually attracted to us. Reliable isn't sexy. It is nice to be valued, but those things a commodities. We could easily have them met elsewhere.

I cannot overstate the significance, weight and fragile security that a lot of men attribute to their physical relationship with their wife. If you wife treats sex like an item on a list that also includes household tasks then what kind of relationship do you really have ? One based on sharing of, "life tasks, but nothing beyond that. It is impossible not to feel, " used," much in the same way a wife might notice her husband only pays attention to her when he wants sex. This is one of the things left over from the previous generation. Men just want sex period. Any emotional significance is dismissed because men are not "complex creates with complex emotions. We get a hard on and we make it go away. It is better to have a partner to do that therfore . . .you get the idea.

Sure you can appreciate what someone does for you, but does that mean you love them ? I appreciate when my co-worker grabs me a starbucks on the way back from their dentist appointment, but that doesn't mean I love them. Heck, I might not even respect them. If I never saw them again how much would I really miss them ? That relationship is based on proximity and what I can get out of that relationship. Nothing more, nothing less.

In full disclosure I get what you are saying. My W provides a lot of things that I do value in my day to day life, but it has to go beyond that. I need to see glimpses of the girl I asked to M me. She needs to see glimpses of the man that gave her butterflies. That includes having fun without the kids. It includes someone who can give me a look that says "Once these dishes are done I am going to rock your world." It is knowing that someone else see value in me beyond the sum of my parts and loves me for that. Is that really any different than what most wives want ?

Numbanddumb,

I love your post. Every word of it to me is the rawest of truth. It inspires me.

I cannot overstate the significance, weight and fragile security that a lot of men attribute to their physical relationship with their wife. If you wife treats sex like an item on a list that also includes household tasks then what kind of relationship do you really have ? One based on sharing of, "life tasks, but nothing beyond that. It is impossible not to feel, " used," much in the same way a wife might notice her husband only pays attention to her when he wants sex. This is one of the things left over from the previous generation. Men just want sex period. Any emotional significance is dismissed because men are not "complex creates with complex emotions. We get a hard on and we make it go away. It is better to have a partner to do that therfore . . .you get the idea.

Every relationship book I have ever read tries to explain this, and I don't think any of them illustrated it as well as you did here.

Anyway, thank you.

Alright,then, since we're piling on, I'll add that the female poster who wrote this...

I was nasty with my husband because I had this insane idea that if I were choosing to only have sex with him, I'd make sure it was a good time.

...is also apparently a Vette aficionado. How is that not ideal? Lady, point him out to us because I'm betting I can gather a couple of the fellas here on SI to gang throttle some sense into him.

Ha ha ha, I appreciate all this! You guys make me feel better. There's always this voice that says "you weren't enough" and it slays me. To hear this helps me drown that voice. I was a fantastic wife. He was a complete idiot and he will NEVER have the likes of me again.

Knowing if it's "true love" or not (whatever the hell that is, by the way) is unknowable until the other person proves it is actually *not* true love, or one of you dies before you can break up.

It’s possible no truer words have ever been spoken on this website.

It is a segmentation or compartmentalization of person and personality. It points to a lack of ability to be whole and integrate all parts of your self and your life in a healthy manner.

There wasn't anything much more sexy than seeing my husband being my husband in every day, real life situations - him gently holding our infant son or napping on the couch with his favorite cat curled up next to him or in the morning with his coffee mug and messed up hair putting on reading glasses or his first grey chest hairs... I could go on and on. I think that's true for many women. There's a calendar called Porn for Women that has pics of hot guys vacuuming and doing housework.

And if I'm going to have anal sex or get my freak on with someone, it's certainly going to be the man that put the suppository in my butt while I was vomiting post surgery. But that's me post marriage when closeness and sex became more closely related. I had casual sex in my college days. Many of those people I wouldn't have considered as life partners. I didn't care about common interests or values or lifestyle. I wasn't looking for a life partner then.

Talking to my husband, he felt differently about relationships and sex. He didn't have much casual sex when he was young but might have if it were offered more. Vulnerability at showing his complete self and asking for his desires to be met was hard for him, both in marriage and outside. It was easier to sit in resentment and convince himself that he's right and I'm wrong than to risk rejection. Someone else came along and complemented and flattered more, was reasonably attractive, pursued, and was there at his bidding. That's all it took. He talked himself into looking past any of her negative qualities.

Did he value me for all my qualities? Not at the time. It was a combination of resentment and entitlement and trying to distance himself and excuse his behavior. That doesn't lessen my value though. What's the saying - something like if a person throws away a $100 bill, does it lessen it's value?

It is a segmentation or compartmentalization of person and personality. It points to a lack of ability to be whole and integrate all parts of your self and your life in a healthy manner.

There wasn't anything much more sexy than seeing my husband being my husband in every day, real life situations - him gently holding our infant son or napping on the couch with his favorite cat curled up next to him or in the morning with his coffee mug and messed up hair putting on reading glasses or his first grey chest hairs... I could go on and on. I think that's true for many women. There's a calendar called Porn for Women that has pics of hot guys vacuuming and doing housework.

And if I'm going to have anal sex or get my freak on with someone, it's certainly going to be the man that put the suppository in my butt while I was vomiting post surgery. But that's me post marriage when closeness and sex became more closely related. I had casual sex in my college days. Many of those people I wouldn't have considered as life partners. I didn't care about common interests or values or lifestyle. I wasn't looking for a life partner then.

Talking to my husband, he felt differently about relationships and sex. He didn't have much casual sex when he was young but might have if it were offered more. Vulnerability at showing his complete self and asking for his desires to be met was hard for him, both in marriage and outside. It was easier to sit in resentment and convince himself that he's right and I'm wrong than to risk rejection. Someone else came along and complemented and flattered more, was reasonably attractive, pursued, and was there at his bidding. That's all it took. He talked himself into looking past any of her negative qualities.

Did he value me for all my qualities? Not at the time. It was a combination of resentment and entitlement and trying to distance himself and excuse his behavior. That doesn't lessen my value though. What's the saying - something like if a person throws away a $100 bill, does it lessen it's value?

And if I'm going to have anal sex or get my freak on with someone, it's certainly going to be the man that put the suppository in my butt while I was vomiting post surgery. But that's me post marriage when closeness and sex became more closely related. I had casual sex in my college days. Many of those people I wouldn't have considered as life partners. I didn't care about common interests or values or lifestyle. I wasn't looking for a life partner then.

That's great, but that's also not common. While I haven't read the story yet, I'm sure it exists of the faithful H putting the anal suppository in and being denied anal sex for years only for that same WW to give it up to the AP on the first date. That's the fundamental problem here, what your saying is the way it "should be" in my eyes. You, as my H/W, get all the best of me (kinky sex) and the worst of me (please help me to the bathroom). The issue is that many WS's seem to have affairs, give away the best (and none of the worst) and then expect their faithful BS to accept less than the "best". That's not going to fly.

"There's a reason Bangbus isn't filmed in a sports car."

I love that you have sufficient familiarity with this subject to state this definitively.

And NotTheManIWas, no I am not one to be emotionally steamrolled. Quite the opposite. At the risk of being arrogant, I am successful in my career because I walk in a room and command it with presence. That makes dealing with the humiliation my wife has inflicted more difficult - I'm not at all used to "losing."

But, the pixie dust is a powerful thing, especially when applied often and with enthusiasm.

And yes, if my terms and manner of speaking seem crass, it is because I have to think about what my wife did in the most graphic, disgusting ways in order to process it and decide if I can forgive her for it and live a happy life with her. If I try to speak delicately about her indiscretions, I'm not being honest with myself. If I'm not prepared to forgive the worst version of her transgressions, then I need to cut her loose now. I won't flog her for this much longer, she doesn't deserve that. I'm getting to the point where I if I can't forgive her, I need to let her go. Hence why this whole "Plan B" thing is so difficult for me.

All of your comments are helpful. I'm so glad I found this forum.

What's the saying - something like if a person throws away a $100 bill, does it lessen it's value?

Never heard that one before, but reminds me of:

[This message edited by ibonnie at 11:31 AM, May 1st (Wednesday)]

.... all husbands want to be respected by their wife. We all want to see evidence that our wifes really like our company and that they are sexually attracted to us. Reliable isn't sexy. It is nice to be valued, but those things a commodities. We could easily have them met elsewhere.

I cannot overstate the significance, weight and fragile security that a lot of men attribute to their physical relationship with their wife.

You know, I once bought into these ideas very heavily. But speaking only for myself, I can't respect a man who is led through his life by little more than the meat between his legs. We've had thread, after thread, after thread about this topic, and my takeaway isn't that men want to feel close to their wives. How can we believe that after the constant drumbeat of locker-room crassness and demands for "porn star sex"? No, I've come to believe it's more like too many men feel entitled to the use of their wives bodies, and if that wife is a former cheater?... in any manner they please and God help her if she doesn't have a smile on her face while he's using her.

I've come to the belief that male sexual insecurity isn't a state of being which should be tolerated, but rather something to be defeated. IOW, it shouldn't be accepted as "the norm", but rather a flaw.

This sense of entitlement is what caused my WH to betray me, my love, and every sacrifice I ever made for him and for our family. And it wasn't even like he wasn't getting sex at home. He just wanted to feel pursued, like some kind of fucking Disney princess. But you know what, after 30 years of marriage, "the butterflies" weren't exactly there for me either. And no matter how people get their freak on, it's eventually kind of old and stale if your whole measuring system is based on a sexual spasm.

The dirty little secret of long term marriage is that we are all of us... package deals. Yeah, my fWH loves me, sure he does. But I'd be kidding myself if I thought that he didn't sit down and do the fucking math on DDay. I'm not just the object of love and desire. I come with the full retirement package and all his worldly goods, as well as the respect of his children, extended family, and friends. I come with a history of caring for him while he's sick and forgiving him when he's an asshole. I am not Plan A, Plan B, Plan C or any other "plan". I am the embodiment of all plans, the place where he can have it all... if he's willing to be a whole and mature adult and if he's willing to respect my humanity.

The problem that men get into when they let their sexual insecurity run amok, is that they end up treating their women like sexual entertainment units. And fuck that noise. I've lived to long to tolerate being treated like a convenient sperm repository.

But a guy who's wife is a freak in bed and will give him all the sex he wants (which I realize is a lot of the BW's here, and I'm just so sorry for you; you're doing the right thing and getting the wrong results)?? What the heck is wrong with that guy? IDK anyone like that IRL, so I can't ask them, nearly all the men I know cheating have complained for years about dead bedroom. But I'm sure they are out there; I've read the stories here and my head just shakes every single time. Dude, do you have any idea how RARE what you have is? And you're shitting all over it for what? So you can trade the rare and wonderful thing you have already for what's almost certainly an illusion? Yeah, a lot of women will bang your brains out during an A; most will stop that behavior the moment you make them into a legitimate partner. It's like a rich guy wrestling a dollar bill out of a beggars hands, what the hell is wrong with you? I have 0 sympathy for this behavior in men.

My H had this. But I had aged (as had he) and he wanted younger and more beautiful. He wanted a Ferrari and he'd decided I was a Chevy. Something he never would have said earlier in our relationship.

I've never recovered from this issue right here. The rest is good but the above may never leave me.

ChamomilleTea,

If any of that was directed at me, I believe you have misapprehended how I feel and in particular how I feel about my wife.

I don't have sexual insecurities, I have an unfaithful wife.

It is up to her to make contributions to our marriage, just as it is my obligation to make contributions to our marriage. She knows what I want, the fact she's wiling to give me that doesn't make me a shallow, insecure, one-dimensional misogynist.

If you weren't remarking about me or my posts, then carry on.

[This message edited by DomesticTourist at 12:07 PM, May 1st (Wednesday)]

I've come to the belief that male sexual insecurity isn't a state of being which should be tolerated, but rather something to be defeated. IOW, it shouldn't be accepted as "the norm", but rather a flaw.

Ask yourself where that insecurity comes from. Why are men so worried about where their next "lay" will come from and women so unconcerned about the same thing. That'll give you a lot of insight in the difference between the sexes (and their reasons for cheating).

No, I've come to believe it's more like too many men feel entitled to the use of their wives bodies, and if that wife is a former cheater?... in any manner they please and God help her if she doesn't have a smile on her face while he's using her.

I think this cuts both ways. Women feel entitled to use or not use their husbands bodies the same way. Take out the trash. Not tonight dear. Work harder to make more money. But, end of the day, if you were married in a traditional ceremony, this is, in fact, what you signed up for in marriage. My body is hers, hers is mine. And while that seems stunningly antiquated and out of date, there's something to be said for the wisdom of ages here.

I've lived to long to tolerate being treated like a convenient sperm repository.

And I've lived too long to sit with my computer and beat off while my WW is out banging the OM through the bed. As I said, cuts both ways.