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How come no one has explicitly flipped this script? Many of the posts hint at it, but let's be honest here. What kind of woman "chooses" the boring, reliable, kind man for a husband then lusts and desires the hot bad boy? Apparently, there are a lot of these less-evolved women out there that lead a good, loving man on and "settle" because they can't land the hot, bad, stud she really wanted.

So while insulting men whose spirits have been broken by cheating wives appears to be the order of the day on this thread, let's just reflect a minute on the vileness of the wife who leads a good person on, makes them believe they really love them, then treats them like shit (withholds sex, emotionally cold) while wanting to be with others.

Notice I didn't say she actually cheats. She just wants other men. And treats her "good" husband accordingly.

For me, that is extremely cruel. But apparently, it is okay as long they don't actually commit physical adultery.

Now back to telling men how un-evolved and stupid they are for being insecure in such a kind a loving way...

[This message edited by reallyscrewedup7 at 5:31 AM, May 2nd (Thursday)]

I think maybe the modern man is capable of a little more finesse.

You're not going to change a zillion years of evolution in one or two generations.

And if the world economy collapses, and men return to tilling the fields behind a horse, and women to tending the hearth and worrying about marauders, who knows; big, strong, testosterone-ridden men may come back in fashion.

Coco -

PUA = Pick-up artist

If you want to go full Darwin on this thing, we're talking about the strongest in the pack just grabbing up the fertile females and killing his rivals. Maybe it's just me, but it's 2019 out there, and I think maybe the modern man is capable of a little more finesse.

Capable of more? No doubt. Programmed genetically for more? Nope. Not yet. Perhaps in another couple of million years we'll select out the traits that have made us want to sleep with anything that walks. However, if we do, it likely means the end of humanity as that drive is also what causes most of the pregnancies and children born each year. Also, there's the issue of women selecting for the "cave man" traits, we'll never be rid of them if the men who exhibit them continue to be more successful reproductively (and statistics tell us they are, IQ and number of children had are inversely related; we're actually selecting against the "less cave man" traits).

Maybe I'm missing something here. My understanding was the definition for "good provider" was along the lines of 'I have $ in my wallet and she helps choose how to spend it'. Is that not the essence of it?

If so... Why would want to be valued for that? Or better yet, why would I want my wife to value me for that? Wouldn't it just mean the dude with the biggest bank account available to her is the best provider? This is getting into the wallet with legs territory that really burned me during the first two years following dday.

I mean, i get not valuing me for my farts, no matter how unique they are, but valuing me because I am reliable in paying bills makes about as much sense.

Maybe I'm missing something here. My understanding was the definition for "good provider" was along the lines of 'I have $ in my wallet and she helps choose how to spend it'. Is that not the essence of it?

If so... Why would want to be valued for that? Or better yet, why would I want my wife to value me for that?

Bingo, although it does transcend beyond that narrow idea to the financial security provided to children and retirement. Nonetheless, your point is spot-on in many instances.

In Dr. Zhivago, Lara is counseled about her boyfriend by a predator, words to this effect:

“He is a do-gooder, an earnest intellectual that women profess to love, but secretly hate.”

If you want to go full Darwin on this thing, we're talking about the strongest in the pack just grabbing up the fertile females and killing his rivals. Maybe it's just me, but it's 2019 out there, and I think maybe the modern man is capable of a little more finesse.

The only reason I haven’t crushed my “rival’s” skull is that I am also biologically programmed to feed and protect my woman and our children, which I cannot do from prison.

Sufficient finesse?

What kind of woman "chooses" the boring, reliable, kind man for a husband then lusts and desires the hot bad boy? Apparently, there are a lot of these less-evolved women out there that lead a good, loving man on and "settle" because they can't land the hot, bad, stud she really wanted.

Um... are they any different than all the men that want someone to raise their kids, cook their dinner, do their laundry while they're out wining and dining some wildly inappropriate AP? A stripper, someone covered in tattoos, a party girl with multiple kids from multiple baby daddies, etc.

In my experience, it's a slap in the face when you realize that you were basically the unpaid housekeeper/nanny, living on a shoestring budget while your WH is out wining and dining another woman and/or buying her lavish gifts. Meanwhile you haven't been to the salon in a year for a haircut because it wasn't on the household budget you thought you were working with.

Um... are they any different than all the men that want someone to raise their kids, cook their dinner, do their laundry while they're out wining and dining some wildly inappropriate AP?

Nope, not even a little bit different. But I've also never heard a guy proffer that they are looking for that kind of woman (someone to cook/do the laundry/raise the kids). Men, in my experience, are far more consistent in the kind of woman they want to meet/date/marry, and it's got nothing to do with "make me a sandwich" (although, I do agree, there's a ton of misinformation out there, starting with "the way to a man's heart is through his stomach".. It's not, go about 6 in lower, you'll have much better success in love).

Your analogy is a good one, and yes, you personally have experience exactly what we're talking about as a problem for men. I just don't see that same problem as much in my male friends. They aren't saying "I wish I could find a good cook" and then dating strippers. They are saying "I wish I could date a stripper" and then trying to date a stripper. What they profess to want in a woman is pretty consistent with what they seek in the dating market.

I’m a bw - I was never attracted to the nice guy, always the asshole athlete. So I got what I signed up for. I was 18, wanted to start my life and have the family I never had, met him at college. I never even gave the nice guys a second glance. I’m totally at fault for that, but you really can’t control attraction, especially at 18. We married 8 years later, had successful careers etc, started a family.

What I was expected to give was very different from what I got. I gave loyalty and emotional support, he supplied basic needs, money, food lodging. By any standard I have lived a privileged life materially and I don’t need to work. I’ve always appreciated that and voiced it. But the awful truth is I married exactly what I had grown up with - basic needs met, emotional needs ridiculed. Called ungrateful, spoiled unappreciative etc., when we would argue. Doesn’t take a therapist to parse that.

When we met and started out, we had nothing. He became reliable for the basics well after we met, his family had zero. I married him because I loved him. He married me because I was mindful and grounding, dependable and one hell of a cook/hostess/partner, I looked good on his arm and made him look good. I was smart and well educated and worldly blue collar to his hillbilly background, although he was smart and had gotten away to attend a prestigious uni, which he fully deserved. I loved him so much I could barely stand it. I adored him. I thought we would have so much fun together forever, and for the most part, we did.

When he fucked an uneducated dirty pillowcase subordinate I was shocked. She was embarrassing in every sense. Mr tough guy asshole athlete is really an insecure needy child, and he loved that she worshipped him no matter how he behaved. I had been calling him out on decisions that were harming us. He threw a tantrum because no one was the boss of him, and everything was my fault anyway. What a lonely time. They didn’t love each other, but they “got” each other the way 2 people who work together with brain damaged clients (literally, that was their job) and social workers only can. It was made clear to me how ridiculous and disgusting I was, and most importantly, how I had been discarded from the inner circle, because every bully athlete asshole always has that his his arsenal. It’s effective.

It’s been 5 years. Was I plan b because I’m a loyal partner, reliable and a great mom? Mow was none of those. My feelings about him have changed for sure. I’m not proud of our 31 years anymore. I fantasize a lot about what I could have done differently in my choices of mate.

What we both know is that he married up in character and moral fibre. I have no idea what that feels like, since I’ve always been held to a higher standard, and when I tried to expect the same I was called a snobby bitch who demanded perfection. I just wanted to be scooped up and loved and emotionally supported, which was snobby of me. I never vowed perfection, but we both vowed loyalty, so I never quite got that argument other than as a way to put me down and stop the conversation.

I think he stays with me because I’m reliable. A 50+ mow who blows her boss on demand must be super sexy fun, but you can’t really trust her, nor do you want her around your kids. She’s neglecting her own kids. And actually, she really should be working, not blowing, so that’s not cool. I’m the prize, but I don’t feel like it, I feel like the comfy shoe you slip on after you’ve been out all day having fun. And now that I’m 50, I’ll never be that for anyone, no matter how hot, fit, smokin’ I am.

I remember liking Dr Zhivago's wife... Of course she wasn't nearly as "hot" as Lara...

Dr. Zhivago, Gone with the Wind, Titanic, all romantic movies very popular with women. Troubling.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 7:50 AM, May 2nd (Thursday)]

Northerngal, I'm betting there isn't a man here that will challenge your assessment of your married experience. I know I won't. When you wrote this...

He threw a tantrum because no one was the boss of him, and everything was my fault anyway. What a lonely time. They didn’t love each other, but they “got” each other the way 2 people who work together with brain damaged clients

...I thought maybe you'd peeked into my own life. Change the "he's" to "she's" and I could have written the above. And so you can well a imagine that if a man touches on the Plan A v. Plan B scenario having experienced what you have, and then reads posts that scoff at his insecurity, its a bit tough to stomach.

I remember liking Dr Zhivago's wife.

I liked Ashley’s wife, too. Do women really want Rhett?

Nottheman, I do get it and I totally understand that this happens to both sexes.

I was not an insecure person in my marriage or any aspect of my life until the affair. My wh hated insecure needy people, because he was those things. Now I’m insecure about the fact I’m insecure.

Bottom line, I was present the entire marriage. What I gave, I gave unconditionally and without the expectation of a transaction. I was authentic in my relationship. I bent over backwards so he would feel supported, he worked so hard as an entrepreneur and I know that the stress of supporting a family is huge. So I know I’m the prize and a great wife, even though his actions over and over told me otherwise. He was not present. He chose another woman over his family for a time, and as a result destroyed his relationship with our oldest who then left for school. He squandered those last years with his children and he will never get that back. He viewed himself as precious and gravitated only to those who told him he was special. Mow was fired, was an embarrassment and he gave her that precious time. I viewed my family and time as precious, and for a time, that made me a source of ridicule. Life is strange indeed.

I’ve said it here before and I’ll say it again. There’s nothing sexier than a man who stands up for his family, and there’s nothing more ridiculous than a man who thinks fucking another woman makes him manly. I’ve asked my wh how he was attracted to a woman who was hurting his family, as he was hurting hers. He should have been insulted, not flattered. That’s the crux of my worry.

Now I’m insecure about the fact I’m insecure.

<laughing> And I'll add, so effing, perfectly framed.

As for this...

and there’s nothing more ridiculous than a man who thinks fucking another woman makes him manly. I’ve asked my wh how he was attracted to a woman who was hurting his family, as he was hurting hers. He should have been insulted, not flattered. That’s the crux of my worry.

...remember that you're preaching to the choir. But, by all means, keep preaching and you'll get a loud chorus of "Amens" from most of us men reading here.

I know I’m preaching to the choir, but I’m saying it again because of how many men on here feel about being cheated on. I keep telling myself things so I believe it.

In one of our mc (I could run a mc yelp-like ranking site in 2 major North American cities) sessions, wh talked about his need to be successful, that the only way to get love in foo was thru achievement. He has a very fucked up foo, with whom I an nc. Conditional, transactional love exactly like mow. Anyway, the mc said “what are you searching for with this achievement?” “I don’t know but I’m afraid if I don’t go after every opportunity that I will miss out on the big success. If people are approaching me with opportunities it’s because I’m worthy and special and I need to drop everything to pursue it.”

The mc looked at him and said “the golden ticket, the prize, is sitting right next to you and you’re ignoring it. You have what you need to be successful and until you focus on her and your marriage, you will continue to chase after meaningless shiny things. The greatness comes when you prioritize and adore what’s sitting right there.” So that was his epiphany.

I’m still waiting for my epiphany.

nd there’s nothing more ridiculous than a man who thinks fucking another woman makes him manly. I’ve asked my wh how he was attracted to a woman who was hurting his family, as he was hurting hers. He should have been insulted, not flattered. That’s the crux of my worry.

...remember that you're preaching to the choir. But, by all means, keep preaching and you'll get a loud chorus of "Amens" from most of us men reading here.

Amen!

Just like men thinking that beating up another man makes them manly, or bullying or any other typically "bad" male behaviors. The thing is, despite how much I agree with you, that's not going to change the way that many men, particularly those who are after A's, are going to act. Having an A, you self-select into the group of men who think it's "manly" to sleep with other men's wives. Stop rewarding them for being this way and they'll stop doing it as much. It swings both ways, and men and women are both to blame for the state of things in this particular area. If being a "bad boy" didn't work so well with women, you'd find a lot less bad boys and a lot more "good men".

RIO I agree with you. But I think there’s not so much rewarding the behaviour as not acknowledging it.

There’s shame for bs with infidelity and often that results in not talking about it, which tacitly doesn’t condemn it. A lot of people are so terrified of truth that they yell “bitter bunny! Dirty laundry is ugly!” when difficult things arise. Which clams people up more. Plus human nature by default finds ways to blame the victim so that our brain can say “phew, I dont live like tha5 so I’m immune to that infidelity/disease/accident.”

No one is immune to anything, which is a frightening way to live all the time but it’s just true.

We all want to be the *exception. Like me. I knew I was married to an asshole who lied to everyone, but I thought I was special to him and that I was therefore immune. That he wouldn’t treat me like that. And for a long time it was true. And when it wasn’t, my legs were taken out from under me so quickly, I was in shock for months.

While I’m not responsible for his being the chief of cheater mountain, I’m responsible for ignoring red flags and having the arrogance to think I was precious to him or anyone.