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I can't see where she said "You Won" impulsively...

It reminds me of when my wife lost a pregnancy, and people kept coming up and saying the wrong things. You can try again, they’re in a better place, part of god’s plan, better now than later, etc. This was really upsetting to my wife.

My advice to her was to look into their hearts and see that they were trying to help, however bumbling of a job they were doing. To ignore the words and hear "we love you and we care".

Maybe AN’s wife was doing the best she could, in a bumbling way. Frankly, there really is nothing a WS can say to truly make it right, but lots to make it worse.

Their only real job is to stand in the storm that they created, and be there.

[This message edited by HouseOfPlane at 9:14 PM, Thursday, March 23rd]

HO - I agree mostly with your assessment of shit WS says. However, she said this during a carefully orchestrated MC session where she and her IC conspired together and dropped a nuclear bomb on AN's head. They had both evidently rehearsed how things would go and how to present them to AN. I can't see where she said "You Won" impulsively... but I wasn't there. AN was. In his original post he said "Honestly, I felt trapped, stunned, as the details poured out".

This is pure speculation on how things went when she said "you won". OP hasn't provided us any definitive information that could prove that it was Carefully orchestrated, conspired together, evidently rehearsed . So, you cannot be certain on that.

No. You are right. It is pure speculation from my end. I can't be certain.

But I can guess she was well coached from somewhere by the sheer amount of information she dropped on AN at the time of discovery and disclosure. The counselor asked AN to let Mrs. AN speak and say everything she had to say before he spoke. So the counselor knew beforehand what Mrs. AN was about to do. Then Mrs. AN presented very detailed timelines, Whats AP messages, emails, NC letter,etc. She was very well prepared it appears to me. Maybe she might have gone over this with the counselor beforehand? Therefore, maybe the counselor apparently knew what was going to happen beforehand and therefore, she asked AN to hold his tongue until Mrs. AN finished? In my speculation it is not like the counselor was totally in the dark about what was going to happen before Mrs. AN began unloading on AN.

Just my speculation. Just my opinion.

[This message edited by lrpprl at 9:41 PM, Thursday, March 23rd]

I don't deny that "You won" shouldn't be taken too lightly regardless in what tone and context it was spoken. It did come from her mind impulsively or otherwise. If she, as she stated, wasn't attracted to AP didn't care about him and disliked him at times then he shouldn't be in a competition competing against OP where the prize was Mrs.Asp. "You won" implies that in her mind there was a competition between OP and AP and winner would get Mrs.Asp. For some reasons AP lost the competition. But it's in the past and don't see how this could help OP now.

The relevant questions now are - Does she still have that "You won" mindset?
Does she still believe that she came to back to OP because he won?

Only OP and his wife can answer them. Answering these questions will tell where they are heading.

"You won"

So he won her affections. He won her. The question then is did she win his affections in return. Did she win him? It should be an every day question.

I’ve quoted this in lots of threads, but AN, if you’ve ever seen The Princess Bride, when Wesley was captured by the Dead Pirate Roberts, and each night he would say something along the lines of "Good work Wesley, good night, I’ll most likely kill you in the morning".

Replace "kill" with "divorce" and it’s not a bad attitude to take with your wife. Day by day, let good deeds become habit. You are in control of the decision as to whether she has won you or not, and it is made every day.

She was taking control with her "you won" comment whether intentioned or accidental. A key to surviving any kind of disaster like this is for you to be control. When in doubt, ask yourself which action keeps you in control, and do that.

Her job is to stand in the storm.

oh boy! Wow. Just wow! So much to digest (I have honestly read everything, although I don't think it would be possible for me to answer every one of the treads that have been raised on here, I have followed the advice to "take what I need and leave the rest".

So an update.... WW is still sleeping in the Caravan (travel trailer) and has agreed she will remain there for the time being. She says she respects my feelings that sex (and specifically the type of sex) that would likely occur is not really conducive to working through things. (not that she's particularly happy about it). For me though, not sharing a bed is a constant reminder that this part of our M is still very much broken and needs much work.

So... progress on the sex therapy. WW and I live in a regional city, where true Sex Therapists (as opposed to Marriage or Individual Counsellors who dabble) are pretty thin on the ground (ie. non-existent!).

WW has revealed that my suggestion for ST (sex therapy) supported what IC has been suggesting to WW, ie. that WW has a most dysfunctional and warped view of sex, likely a result of deep rooted historical biases and internalisations that need to be properly processed. The IC believes that WW needs to work through these sexual neuroses, as IC recognises that progress in there areas without addressing ST will be difficult. So there is that - great huh? </SARCASM>.

WW is most uncomfortable at the idea of "digging all this up", but as she can see it is important to me, is willing to commit to making an honest effort to engage.

We have made contact with a ST that is willing to work with WW via telehealth, and we have an initial sessions early next week (initially together, but then 1 on 1 with WW).

I have also had the opportunity to sit in for part of the WW IC session to help me understand what areas they are working on, and answer some queries I had about things. I can now advise that the whole "she/her" thing was a "mental conceit" (or something) introduced by IC to help WW look objectively and describe her actions and feelings during the A. IC did explain that WW is finding it difficult to let this go, and it is something they are working on - having WW recognise that other person is a part of herself, and that holding her sexual personhood apart is not good for her mental health. (No sh... er okay!)

WW and I have found some time to have some deep and meaningful discussions about her statement about not caring about the AP etc.

I haven't really had time to process this, but I'll just pretty much dump it here and chew over it for a bit.

Basically - WW admits that she has always struggled to be the "good girl" that society(?) required of her. She told me she was ashamed that when she was younger, she struggle(d/s) with strong sexual urges, desires and fantasies, which she "knew" were not what she was "supposed" to be feeling, and she was embarrassed that they would arrive unbidden to her, and she would feel ashamed that her body responded to those imaginations and fantasies.

So... the pushed them down... tried to box them up. Good girls don't and all that crap. She said that with AP she could do things with him coz she "didn't have to face someone respected and cared for deeply the next day". She could not reconcile that other part of herself in the context of what she imagines a good wife and mother should be. So I was apparently denied precisely *because* she respected me, and felt she would not be able to endure the (imagined) judgement she would face by giving into her "deviancy". I mean WTH?

With AP, she couldn't care less what he thought of her. She did/does not respect him, and saw him only as an outlet for that "other" side of her or something??? (help me out here...???)

So she sees that she needs to deal with all this stuff, past, self talk, internalizations etc as WW agrees that the dichotomy in her persona is harming her mentally.

So - what do I want out of all of this?

Simple - Whatever the outcome for our M, I want as much as possible for us both to be in a better place mentally than the torture we are putting ourselves (and each other) through. If we stay together, then we will be healthier people together working it out, if not and we decide to call time, we will be healthier people for any future partners.

Don't think I can be any fairer than that.

In the meantime, I'm working through the stabs and barbs I feel as I pick over the details WW has provided, to help me understand some of the things that occurred within our M and relationship prior to the A.

It's good that she is taking those baby steps. Good to see you taking back control. I pray you both reach a better place as early as possible.

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 11:38 AM, Friday, March 24th]

Sounds like you have a plan.

How do you feel about the fact that your WW and you are not sharing a bed, thus not having sex, which she probably is ecstatic about because of all her issues, yet you aren’t even having "vanilla" sex right now?

You are the betrayed, yet your WW enjoyed her great sex with AP, is currently getting her very understanding snd empathetic husband, snd at the same time gets to avoid what she at this time prefers to avoid - sex with her husband?

Basically - WW admits that she has always struggled to be the "good girl" that society(?) required of her. She told me she was ashamed that when she was younger, she struggle(d/s) with strong sexual urges, desires and fantasies, which she "knew" were not what she was "supposed" to be feeling, and she was embarrassed that they would arrive unbidden to her, and she would feel ashamed that her body responded to those imaginations and fantasies.

So... the pushed them down... tried to box them up. Good girls don't and all that crap. She said that with AP she could do things with him coz she "didn't have to face someone respected and cared for deeply the next day". She could not reconcile that other part of herself in the context of what she imagines a good wife and mother should be. So I was apparently denied precisely *because* she respected me, and felt she would not be able to endure the (imagined) judgement she would face by giving into her "deviancy". I mean WTH?

With AP, she couldn't care less what he thought of her. She did/does not respect him, and saw him only as an outlet for that "other" side of her or something??? (help me out here...???)

My friend, it's good that you are trying to wrap your mind around this, but I have to remind you that this is a textbook Madonna/whore syndrome. You could literally write the same story by cutting out the pages of a psychology text. I point this out because this concept leaps from the words in your posts, even though you've posted only a handful of times. I'm honestly a bit incredulous that you are now suggesting this is coming as even a slight revelation to you.

The real question you need to answer is whether you're willing to continue being married to a woman whose sexuality is so intractably suppressed that (a) she can't properly lay her husband, and (b) the only way she can release her sexuality to date is by cheating in the most monstrous of ways? Unless she sincerely desires to reject her upbringing and, by extension, her family, for the benefit of her husband, you're Sisyphus at this point.

Questions to ask yourself:

(a) Is she a long-distance runner (or, as the Finns say, does she have "sisu")? The effort required to achieve normal will be giant, and will need to be sustained over many years. Does she have what it takes to do this?

(b) Does she prioritize your happiness as a man to a sufficient degree to make that sort of sustained effort for the sake of your happiness? If she's doing this merely as divorce prevention, she'll be inclined to do just barely enough to keep you stringing along. If she is truly focused on your happiness, she'll go over-the-top with her efforts. Which is it?

(c) I still believe the odds are not in your favor. You're talking a long-term investment of your life. Like upwards of 10 years. You'll never get those years back. I would urge you to listen to the logic of this and at least consider whether you are willing to do this. You've already invested 20+ years into a sexually unsatisfactory marriage. Please look in the bathroom mirror and have a conversation with your 60-year old self. Will that man thank you for remaining in this marriage? Will he wish you had let it go so you could find happiness with somebody new, somebody with a functional relationship to her sexuality?

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 2:31 PM, Friday, March 24th]

I mostly lurk but I did want to ask a question of Mr. AN. How does your wife square or explain some of the things she did later in the affair?

Specifically the denial of sex at AP’s request and also taking provocative pictures with you in the background. If she didn’t care or respect AP, why did she do those things? I know there’s the subversive aspect, and illogical things occur during an affair. Do you think these things were done specifically to disrespect you? How does she explain these aspects?

AN, based on what you wrote about your wife, the sad thing is that you did not have an honest, open marriage even before the A. She was living two lives, an inner and outer one. We all do a little bit, she did a*lot*.

The two of you have the opportunity to have an actual honest, open, nothing held back relationship coming out of this. The key is to value that honesty above all else. That relationship can be as a married couple or as divorced parents, s friends. It is still a relationship to be valued.

Stay in control, AN.

Sending strength!

[This message edited by HouseOfPlane at 1:16 PM, Friday, March 24th]

She's not being honest with you.

An affair is the epitome of disrespect towards your spouse.

She can't use the common wayward excuse that she kept her affair separated from the marriage, and put the affair in a box when with you.

She involved you in the affair. Or,rather,involved the affair/OM in the marriage. She stopped having sex with you, at his request. She took provocative pics with you in the background, and sent them to him.

She was incredibly disrespectful towards you. She did not respect you during the affair.

Also..her IC has been pushing her to see a sex therapist for awhile,and she refused. She's now agreed because there is a very real threat of divorce if she doesn't. She's already told you not to expect her to "become a whore," which in her mind,means don't expect her to be adventurous in bed. One has to wonder how much she will get out if seeing a ST,since she's going under "forced" conditions,and has already said she won't get anything from it.

We tell BS, when they arrive in JFO, the WS has to want to put in the work. That dragging them through R won't work. They have to be proactive. I don't think this is any different. She has to want to put in the work,and be proactive. She's done a lot of that. But she doesn't seem to want to do this. She's doing it because she feels she has to.

So I was apparently denied precisely *because* she respected me, and felt she would not be able to endure the (imagined) judgement she would face by giving into her "deviancy". I mean WTH?

With AP, she couldn't care less what he thought of her. She did/does not respect him, and saw him only as an outlet for that "other" side of her or something??? (help me out here...???)

I feel like I understand every word she's saying.

Your WW was taught that good people refrain from having kinky sex. Women aren't even supposed to want it. She was probably also taught that it's a man's role to try to get deviant sex -- driven against his will by those baser instincts-- and a woman's role to hold the line and save both of you from the immortal consequences. She loves you, and so she fit your marriage into the box that she was told God had made for it. In her mind, this was protecting you both, not just from outside threat, but from yourselves and your weaknesses of the flesh.

The AP's mortal soul, however, was not her responsibility. He was married, she was married, and she had finally convinced herself that she wasn't that kind of girl. At first, his mild flattery felt enjoyable and safe. She didn't expect that crossing that early line would blast open the lockdown she was holding on her natural sexuality. She was shocked, she was scared, and she was intrigued.

This was where the wayward self-lying kicked in. Your WW sounds like me in some respects. I was a compartmentalizer. I set up a world in my own head where what I was doing "wasn't real" and "didn't count." I believed my love for my BH and my plans for the future were "real." What I was doing with OM didn't fit that narrative, so when cognitive dissonance emerged, I locked that part of my thinking up in a little box and shoved it in a dark corner. Your WW's entire adolescence trained her for that maneuver: if you know something you want is wrong, then deny it, suppress it, and pretend it isn't real. Unfortunately, this time, what she boxed up was her integrity -- shoved it right in the corner with the moldy containers that were already holding her healthy sexuality and her self-esteem, squelched by the way she was raised.

In addition, your WW has submissive impulses. Along comes this dominant asshole, and what he tells her to do is also what the hormones are telling her to do. She doesn't even like this dude, so if it's damning him to hell, is easier to justify that as his problem. She'll use him the same way he's using her. As far as her own immortal soul, she'll do her best not to think about that, because admitting to herself that she's betraying you and betraying herself is too painful to face.

I'm sure some people will interpret this as me saying your WW didn't have free will here. She did. I did. Neither of us were forced or hypnotized by our affair partners. We are 100% accountable for our choices. If we hadn't known we were doing something terribly wrong, we wouldn't have had to compartmentalize. I agree with posters who say that she needs to let go of this third person bullshit and turn and look in the mirror. I'm glad her therapist is helping her look at that.

But I disagree with posters who say the whys don't matter. If a house has a cracked foundation, then spackling it over solves nothing. Maybe it has to be torn down, maybe it can be reinforced, but if you don't figure out what caused it, you'll always be wondering if it's about to collapse again. And I do have empathy for how your WW's FOO and coping mechanisms smoothed the path towards betrayal -- even as I agree, and would tell her if she visited the Wayward Side, that she was the one who chose to walk it.

Agree with dude.

The separation is to give you space to clear your head on what you want.

Also to lay down the ultimatum to her that you are going to work on this together or you are going to go your separate ways.

If you are in agreement that you are going to work on things then move her back in and start having sex again.

Couples need to have sex even if it’s a little forced.

That’s not pulled out of an ass. Many professionals give the advice if scheduled sex nights.

You need to work on intimacy between you that is the problem.

More separation will not help with that.

When I look at what AN just wrote about his wife I see very similar FOO issues with Mrs. Walloped. They seem almost interchangeable in my own mind.

Mrs. Walloped's mother was emotionally abusive toward her and did some really horrible things to her when she was a child. Therefore, Mrs. Walloped felt she had to be perfect, prim, and proper in everything. Eventually the air in her balloon got pushed to the end and an explosion happened... she became susceptible to having an affair. Mrs. Walloped described her affair as being one of sexual freedom, even if she did not use that term. She walked around AP's apartment naked and without a care in the world. No husband, no children, nothing prevented her from doing what she wanted sexually. In fact, she said she was in total control of the sexual aspect of their affair and loved having the power to have her AP literally beg her for sex. A totally different woman from the one she was at her home with her husband and children.

As I recall I believe it was Freud who described the Madonna/Whore complex, but he was describing it for men more than woman. I could be wrong but Freud described it as having Madonna/mistress complex. Growing up I heard that in a marriage a man wanted both a lady in the parlor and a whore in the bedroom. However, there were some men who could not handle a wife being both, so they had trouble having desire for their wives in the bedroom. Thus they looked elsewhere to satisfy their sexual wants and needs. At that time, and in my generation, "good" girls just did not have those kind of thoughts... especially in the religious community of which my family was a part.

For AN's sake, I sure hope this all gets worked out. He seems like a good guy who deserves a good marriage.

Confused282: you really seem confused.

AN, sounds like a bit more progress has been made, good for you.

BraveSirRobin's last post seemed very relevant in understanding your WW. I have to say, kink adds to discomfort in being open with your spouse. I'm a guy and have experienced the exact same thing. I avoided discussing my bdsm related interests for years for fear of being seen as odd, weird or being rejected. This was a long time ago, really before the internet had made all kinks easily discoverable, understandable and accessible. Eventually it came out and I discovered that my wife was open to it and then she found she enjoyed it too. Not quite in the same way but with enough overlap where we have long since incorporated it into our sex life with some regularity.

There are all sorts of reasons for being inhibited sexually, it's very common. And the kinkier your desires are the more shame may be part of the story. People are turned on by their fetish and are drawn to it powerfully. Then they orgasm and may feel ashamed. But the desire doesn't go away. This dynamic may have been occurring with your WW if she was turned on by the submission dynamic. If that is the case, it might work like this... Posom would tell her something to do for him while they were apart and the whole idea of giving in might excite that part of WW. It would act like extended foreplay. Sexual tension building along with each task. If that was what was happening, it would make it very compelling for her to do what she was told. She wouldn't be thinking of doing it to hurt you, she would be doing it to continue the D/s foreplay, to feel the sexual tension build. And this is a bit graphic but if she wasn't masturbating during all this then she could be hugely swept up in that game. If she is more submissive, then thoughts of hurting you by denying you would be very far from her mind if that dynamic was happening. In bdsm it's called sub-space and it can be compelling.

Of course I don't know if that was the case. It could be but the other interpretation is the far more usual one; posom was giving her the attention she craved and to keep getting that attention she would do as he asked. If there was no sub-space, no submissive fetish involved, I actually have more concern about why she would deny you since posom would never know the difference. One explanation could be limerance. Wanting to please him not because she is a 'sexual submissive' per se but because she thought she might love him. That may not seem likely given how she has described him but she may be covering up how she felt about him when this all was happening and just sharing how she feels now about him. I think that may also relate to the "you won" comment because that expression could mean she did have feelings for him. Another explanation might be she just didn't think about it or you in the moment. Wrapped up in her world she never thought you'd know so what did it matter?

Only she knows. If I were you, I'd want to know the truth behind her following his demands, even the ones that directly involved you, her loyal husband.

Couples need to have sex even if it’s a little forced.

That’s not pulled out of an ass. Many professionals give the advice if scheduled sex nights.

Scheduling sex nights is so that couples who are busy working,raising kids,etc, make time for each other. They also have the right to be too tired,or not in the mood, when that night comes around.

It's not even remotely close to forced sex. Even "a little."

[This message edited by HellFire at 3:58 PM, Friday, March 24th]

AN, you added comments that make it sound like you don't get it ("WTH?" and "Help me out here.") which surprises me a little. You get it, right? If not, read what BSR and Trdd wrote.

"Mental conceit" = mental construct or personal construct? Google says: "Personal construct theory suggests that people develop personal constructs about how the world works. People then use these constructs to make sense of their observations and experiences. The world we live in is the same for all of us, but the way we experience it is different for each individual."

With AP, she couldn't care less what he thought of her. She did/does not respect him, and saw him only as an outlet for that "other" side of her or something??? (help me out here...???)

I liked what Bsr wrote, and to make it simpler, many of us have experienced telling something to a complete stranger that we haven’t told anyone in our life. Sometimes because we haven’t processed it but usually more shame based.

AN, based on what you wrote about your wife, the sad thing is that you did not have an honest, open marriage even before the A. She was living two lives, an inner and outer one. We all do a little bit, she did a*lot*.

I am going to push back on this a bit. All relationships are as authentic as the people in them. But I don’t think the Pre-affair marriage is a lie just because she hadn’t come to terms with her sexuality. It’s not a betrayal in other words. One would imagine their sex life has always been what it is, he married her and an accepted who she was flaws and all. I think that’s a pretty honest exchange.

After an affair, most question the reality of the pre A marriage, that’s normal, but there is nothing that points to betrayal here.

How do you feel about the fact that your WW and you are not sharing a bed, thus not having sex, which she probably is ecstatic about because of all her issues, yet you aren’t even having "vanilla" sex right now?

And this is the crux as to why this often becomes a gender discussion.

This post almost suggested she is being rewarded for her behavior by not having to have sex with him. That he is the one making the sacrifice or taking the punishment.

He is is choosing to sleep separately in order not to be sex bombed, create more tension around the matter that they can’t walk back, and prevent further damage to himself and the marriage he is trying to save.

This is the coddling some kept throwing out. Because the over arching view is that she just needs to fuck the shit out if him so he can feel better.

That’s not a healthy approach. Many are suggesting marital coercion, and maybe some of you would find it interesting to see when women force themselves to have sex to please their mate on an ongoing basis it actually will kill her sex drive and cause polarization in the marriage.

Don’t shoot the messenger.

Most healthy females want sex on a regular basis just like men. But when they have to robotically perform too much, the well goes dry. Females need to feel desire, and when pushed too much that creative space dries up.

Therapists now do not recommend scheduled sex. They recommend non sexual affection through the day and spending at least 15 minutes a day of connecting and talking. This allows the female to keep adding to the well rather than subtracting from it. It allows her to be remind d of your love and gives her a chance to appreciate you.

That is not going to fix this situation, but that’s a recommendation they would have in an otherwise healthy marriage which right now this one is not.

(I can understand sometimes like here we are not dealing with a healthy female)

What AN is doing is the best way to get to a place they will both benefit from a long lasting satisfying sex life. And then the onus is on the ww to find a path to a good connection with her sexuality and to do her part in unleashing the stranglehold she has over her own desire.

If both are successful becomes a functioning sex life. Otherwise the likely scenario is she will sex bomb the crap out of him until he is contented and pull it away later.

He can still divorce her if it doesn’t work.

Is AN making a sacrifice now for perhaps the greater good of his reconciliation? Absolutely. Will it work? No one knows, but it’s absolutely the best formula.

This is not coddling the we this is working together on a problem they are having during their reconciliation.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:38 PM, Friday, March 24th]