SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Yes, she took an STD test and all was negative.

Did not do the polygraph.

Your wife has more regret than remorse, that is never good. Her down playing what she did is alarming. How can you learn from a mistake when you didn't make one.

The fact that she thinks she past the test is scary.

What you wife lacks is empathy which is key in reconciliation.

FWIW, I didn't ask for a poly. Results wouldn't have made a difference. I knew enough to not need confirmation. I did require STD/STI testing.

There's a saying here to take what you need and leave the rest.

So your wife does not think what she has done is as bad as some. She needs to understand that is the issue. The intent was there no matter how far it got. What is meant by wondering hands? Did she physically touch any part of him other than the kiss or hands? A handjob is physically cheating. May not be sex but then again i do not think she is telling you how far it got.

Your wife appears to be pretty immature in the way she is looking at this. Minimization is a omnipresent feature of cheaters, but sometimes it is just lying, other times it reveals an immaturity which I find makes the lying even worse, and does not fill one with hope that the cheater can process and grow in a way that makes them safe - if you ever want to truly stay with them after betrayal.

She seems to be caught up in a straw-man argument of whether or not she had invited this sleazebag over - the second time - with the intent of fucking him. So that is an issue.

Back to her straw-man argument of her lying and saying that you want her to admit that "she wanted intercourse", all that can be characterized as is a stupid and childish line of reasoning.

Personally, as soon as a dick goes in somebodies' wife's mouth (or any other orifice) who is not her husband, I think the "sex line" is truly crossed.

Nothing happened that she didn't want to happen. So she is picking something further down the line to make what she did do (or will admit to at least), look better by comparison.

The truth of the matter is she was "open" to much more than pleasant conversation, or else his dick would have never found its way into her mouth.

I've been in settings with women who were "ready!", who were "open", and who it "wasn't gonna happen" with.

And when you are with a woman who it isn't going to happen with, it ain't gonna happen. So she was at least open to sucking dick.

How do we know this? Because she did it.

To be "open" doesn't mean she has to write on a piece of paper beforehand: Sucking dick, yes, vaginal sex, no. She set the conditions. After that, it just has to happen, with her consent.

And frankly, there is no way to be sure of what was said before she had this man over to your home, a second time after already crossing boundaries, no less.

She 100% for sure was between "ready!" and "open". Be certain of that.

***

I understand Bigger's comparison of "just browsing" the hardware store with no intention of buying anything and coming home with a table saw that costs a grand, but in truth, that is much more spur of the moment and whimsical. I don't agree with the comparison - you don't just "browse" with strange men.

I think a better comparison is if you drove down to your local hooker stroll, and engaged in some petting with a hooker. Then you went back a week later "Just to test yourself" and somehow found yourself getting blown by a hooker.

The point here, is that unlike browsing the store, there is no fathomable reason for you to be down at the hooker stroll other than to do things with hookers. Just your presence there is wildly inappropriate, and any idiot knows that.

Imagine this: 'Hey wife, I was down at hooker alley because I wanted to test myself". How absurd.

Similarly, there is no fathomable reason for your wife to find herself, nay, intentionally make arrangements, to be alone with this man, other than to take their activities further down the sexual road, assuming she didn't lie about how far they went the first time.

She is trying to spin this as something that wasn't intentional, and it was 100% intentional. She knew what she was doing the whole time. She even had time in-between sessions A and B to come to her senses. She didn't care.

She doesn't identify with the other cheaters she reads about? Bullshit. YOU ARE WHAT YOU DO. And that is all there is to it.

- Wives don't find themselves with men who are not their husband in settings where inappropriate sexual conduct is likely "by accident".
- Kissing and petting don't happen "by accident".
- Dicks don't find their ways into mouths "by accident".

The "perfect storm" happened because she created the perfect storm. Period.

She was not bewitched, charmed out of her pants, played, none of that. She did what she wanted to do.

Lots of people want to talk about "the whys". Well there it is: She wanted to.

I think at this early stage "the whats" are much more important, in order for you to decide whether you want to stay with this woman.

99% of cheaters would rather focus on the whys than the whats. There is a reason "why", because the whats are usually bad, really bad.

***

Are you having her write these things down? Cheaters love to change their words up after the fact: "I didn't say that", "I don't remember saying that", "I didn't mean that".

- Have your wife write down what she thought she was testing.
- Have you wife write down what she wanted to talk about with him.
- Have her write down what they actually talked about.
- Have her write about what they talked about just prior to the act, right before the conversation stopped and body parts emerged, then merged. (How about them Cubs? Dick is suddenly out of pants then in mouth. Nope.)
- Ask her how long they were together, and when in that period of time, the conversation stopped and the action started. (I can pretty much promise you that she will push back on this aspect, claim she doesn't know and so on. Tell her to estimate.)

You will be faced with a hot mess of bullshit answers, but they will be committed to paper, so she cannot claim she didn't say it.

Then you have to decide if this is a person who you can stay with, live with what she did, how she is behaving afterwards, who she truly is, if she is a risk of doing this again, and be able to face yourself every day.

It is always so disturbing when we find out the person we thought was so special is so utterly typical.

Good luck to you.

I don't believe she invited him for a booty call or something like that, but a "conversation" is absolutely preposterous.

Gently now, I think both you and your WW are in Denial.

Your WW is in denial because she cannot come to grips with what she did. She sees herself as 'good' person, and good people do not do such things. She cannot believe that she had made a decision to call the AP over on the pretext of handing over a cheque, which had the high possibility of another physical encounter. She rationalizes to herself that she wanted to 'test' her (I assume) willpower to resist. Did you ask her what if her 'test' had failed?

As to you being in denial, the first part of the quote above indicates that you are in denial. Of course the invitation was for a possible booty call. This is not a court of law, where the defendant is considered innocent until proven guilty. Your WW is already guilty, but you are now acting as her lawyer believing that she is innocent. My suggestion is to think the other way around, guilty until she proves herself to be innocent. The onus of proof of innocence lies on the shoulder of the wayward.

Did not do the polygraph.

Sounds ominous.

PFB, had to scroll back and reread your initial post. You've been on quite a journey and have made some progress. That is a good thing. Ake whatvi have to say or leave it. Your call.

Your initial post reminds me of where I started after Dday#2. My WW tried to sell me on the narrative that she had been seduced by a player, that she was vulnerable to his powers. Yeah, didn't take me long to see past that bullshit. You can't be a strong, independant woman while simultaneously being a damsel in distress. She's not a transformer. Turns out, she was way worse than she initially sold me on.

The thing is, I was desperate to see her that way, as a niave and vulnerable woman who made a silly mistake. It took some pushing, but I got out of that mindset pretty quick with the help of this site. Just wish I had found it earlier. You want to know if something is bullshit? Just run it by the vets here. They will suss it out PDQ.

I'm going to go on record as saying that there is more you will discover. Usually because there is. The one thing about cheaters is that they always self preserve. You might want to read Fibble's thread. His ww gave a pretty convincing show early on and even he was convinced. Then the other shoe dropped. Then there is lifedestroyer, a WS whose posts almost had me convinced, and maybe even herself too. I guess we just desperately want to believe that there unicorns out there. At least one or two. He'll, it's one of thecreasons I still watch Rom Coms.

Many of us BHs are reluctant to see our WW's for who they truly are and admit what they are truly capable of, even after they have repeatedly shown us. Its like we (me included) need to have it beaten into our thick skulls. Maybe it's a Madonna/where complex at work? Or maybe we cannot admit that we were that wrong about them or chose poorly? Or maybe if we admit it, then we fear cannot recover from that? Who knows. But the best thing you can do is try to ween yourself off of the ideal through which you viewed your WW.

Pretty much everyone here has commented that you WW'S story is anywhere from suspect to flat out ridiculous. If you add up the sum of the aggregate wisdom speaking, which has been dearly purchased, you will see just how probable it is that there is more to her story that she is willing to admit. The reasons are varied, but fall along the lines of too ashamed, think you will leave, or wanted to spare you more pain. Yeah, we've heard it all before.

I don't know you, but judging from your posts you seem like a genuinely good man, albeit a more passive one. Maybe you are consumed with doing "the right thing" based on a moral code. Take it from me, it will kill you. It's okay to get angry. It's okay to kick your Ww to the curb if cheating is a deal-breaker. What is not okay is to purposely hold onto some comfortable lie in order to somehow outlast the shock of betrayal. Really ask yourself if that is what you are doing? The subconscious mind is a powerful force and sooner or later your suspicion and resentment will bubble up through the containment field you have constructed and it will have festerd into something much worse and more difficult in the meanwhile.

Do what is best for you and your marriage. Do the timeline and poly.

And that's all I got to say about that.

PS. I really hoping for good things for you, whatever form they take.

Not doing the poly is a big mistake in my opinion

A good IC would help her grapple with why she invited him over a second time.

As far as if she is telling the full truth or not... you see the forum lands in skeptical. But we do have to remember that in this case she confessed immediately of her own volition. Yes, it was trickle truth but she did what most WS do not, confess despite no suspicion from the BS. That counts quite a lot toward the current story being the truth.

I do like the idea of having her write out her reasoning for the second invite as faithfulman describes above.

[This message edited by Trdd at 12:32 PM, Tuesday, October 11th]

As far as if she is telling the full truth or not... you see the forum lands in skeptical. But we do have to remember that in this case she confessed immediately of her own volition. Yes, it was trickle truth but she did what most WS do not, confess despite no suspicion from the BS. That counts quite a lot toward the current story being the truth.

None of that is contradictory to the full rationale behind the second meeting to be not as benign as she is currently admitting. If you were in a situation where even sparks were flying with someone not your spouse, even with no physical interactions, wouldn't you take steps to avoid being alone with that person again. I know I wouldn't set up another private meeting. His wayward went even further on the first incident, and happily arranged another get together. She may have had herself convinced at the time that it wasn't for getting another bite of the forbidden fruit, for any number of reasons, but deep down it really was. We convince ourselves all sorts of crap to allow us to do something we know we shouldn't. Until she recognizes that, admits that at least to herself, and takes the proper steps to address the why of that, she is a serious risk to reoffend. PFB84, IOW, is right to be concerned that his WW is insistent that it wasn't a consideration, because the only thing that makes sense is it was. May be not necessarily expected or preplanned, but she wasn't total adverse to it either. I'd even lean towards deep down she was hopeful for it.

As far as if she is telling the full truth or not... you see the forum lands in skeptical. But we do have to remember that in this case she confessed immediately of her own volition. Yes, it was trickle truth but she did what most WS do not, confess despite no suspicion from the BS. That counts quite a lot toward the current story being the truth.

As a BS who's WS "confessed all voluntarily", I call bullshit on this. Sorry PFB84, but a "confession" means nothing. NOTHING.

Mine "confessed immediately of his own volition" on dday1 too. Whoops - turns out he left out a whole bunch of stuff. Then he "told me everything" so we could "move forward" a few weeks later. Whoops, turns out there was still more. Then when we decided to separate he "laid it all on the table" because I "deserved the whole truth". HA - again somehow a whoooooole bunch of stuff got edited out of THAT truth telling. I was so shocked and reeling from the whole thing that I really bamboozled myself into believing him, mostly because I desperately wanted to think he at least cared about me enough to be honest. But he didn't. Honesty had sailed away on the same ship with his integrity and respect, never to be seen or heard from again. It was hard for me to accept that and to really admit to myself that this was absolutely not the person I knew anymore and that THIS person now was not one I wanted to be around anymore.

The collective BH/BW wisdom around here is that what you think you KNOW is typically only a fraction of what actually happened and I say that because time and time and time again I have seen it on here for the last almost 4 years. In fact, I've been wracking my brain and honestly can't remember a single instance of a ws's "full confession" that ever turned out to be an actual full confession. ws's lie, then they lie some more, then they lie about their lies and on and on and on.

That's not to say that all hope is lost - some ws's do snap back to reality and stop spinning tales. They're rare, but it does happen. But again looking back on my almost 4 years here, I think the cases where that reality snap happens are ones where the BS lays down the hammer hard and stops swallowing the load of shite the ws is shoveling at them. Only you know for certain where you're at, but deep down where you don't want to even look, do you *really* think you have the 'full' truth?

IMO the poly has two purposes in this particular case. First, is the obvious which is to confirm no prior A’s and if the entire truth is out there.

The second is to show your anger and incredulousness - that your WW is minimizing your pain, attempting to move directly towards rebuilding the relationship.

Obviously your words are not having an effect on her in this regard. Decisive action is now what’s required to make your WW completely understand what you need and what she’s trying to gloss over.

I waffled on the poly but ended up collecting sufficient info to verify my fWW's story in other ways.

I can recommend saddling up AP's buddy with drinks to get his side of the story. Or you wife with drinks she is having with her bestie that you record. Worked for me. Also found out my wife's best friend was in an A. So, two birds, one stone.

You could become Captain Infidelity's sidekick.

I can see the arguments against it though as well.

Perhaps you should say to her. 'Your actions were a gun shot at me/our marriage. It may not have been a head shot but it is serious.' She needs to realise that any form of infidelity is serious. Incapacitating.

Poly’s are so misunderstood.
This is coming from a poster who has advocated for their usage here on SI for years.
They are so misunderstood…

Let’s get the stoopid reason for a poly out of the way: They are never used as punishment. It’s not like the old (probably now banned) kids’ games where you could give your opponent a mild electric shock. If you think punishment is required you would be better keying your spouses vehicle, spitting in their coffee or making them listen to Bieber.

Then let’s get one misunderstanding out of the way: A poly does not give you the truth.
If the person being questioned truly thinks 2+2=5 they would pass with a "no" if asked if 2+2=4.
What the poly can give you is a strong verification of if the person being questioned is honest.

Because of this the poly needs to have a purpose as far as reconciling a marriage is concerned.

If you have already decided that infidelity is a deal-breaker or that you want to divorce no matter what… skip the cost of the poly and use the funds for a retainer on a decent divorce attorney. Knowing your spouse did it 5 times rather than 4 won’t make you any less divorced.

If however you want a shot at reconciliation then a KEY FACTOR IMHO is that the WS is being honest and is committed.
Having to tell the details to the level the BS needs and having to be totally open and honest is hard. It’s hard to open up and acknowledge your mistakes and wrongdoings and to shoulder your accountability. I personally think infidelity is always some form of character flaw, and for someone with a character flaw to find the strength to be honest… That’s hard.
I personally am OK with the wife in this instance occasionally falling back to minimizing her affair. It’s like a boxer keeping his gloves up and out of range to catch his breath. As long as she isn’t allowed to rest for too long or to believe her reasoning. I’m fine with one step backwards, as long as it’s followed by two steps onwards.

OK – So when a BS has hammered on the spouse that they need the truth, that there can’t be any secrets and that a base where the BS believes he has the truth, knows enough about the affair to believe it’s over, has the knowledge to verify that etc. a poly can be a fantastic tool to verify the WS has been honest. That the truth is on the table.
But for that tool to have a purpose the BS needs to believe the outcome.
Both ways.
If the WS fails the poly then the BS needs to accept the WS isn’t a candidate for reconciliation. At least not now. It then becomes a question of a) does the BS think it’s worth the time and effort to get the WS to understand the gravity of the situation and repeat the poly maybe 2-3 weeks from now or b) does the BS accept that R isn’t possible since the WS isn’t honest.

Keep in mind that to be totally honest one needs to trust the person you are honest to. Reconciling is a complex equation that involves high levels of trust and honesty from both. First thing out the window at d-day is any trust we BS have for our WS so the first months (and even years) of R require some form of rebuilding of a new form of trust. For that period the lack of trust can be made up by the trust the WS needs to show us, the BS.

OK – with all the above in mind – We BS could use a poly when we believe we know everything we need to know to move to the next step to verify or support our assumption is correct.

If we get that verification… we too need to move on… We aren’t forfeiting any right to ask more questions, but we are acknowledging that the WS is probably being honest, and that we probably have a pretty clear picture of what happened. The rest is probably only fillers – like did the OM use cream in his coffee or drink it black.

If we get verification that the WS isn’t being honest… We need to move on knowing that reconciliation has been dealt a heavy blow. To me that is deciding to head towards divorce as an inevitable consequence unless there is some serious change.

In this instance – in this case – I think that if the original poster believes he has the truth he can skip the poly. But then he has to accept that he’s omitting a tool that could alleviate his doubts about the truth. If he can draw a virtual line under the discovery phase and progress more towards reconciliation… then fine… skip the poly.

--
This instance is a difficult one.
Infidelity is infidelity. Its ALWAYS hard, and the old adage "the worst type of infidelity is the type YOU experienced" holds true.
I doubt the OP finds any solace in that his wife "only" did A or B or C or D.
I remember as a kid a strange game where you had to chose between two bad options. Sort of like "would you rather be whipped or kicked" sort-of-questions. If I was asked "Would you rather your wife have an affair like PFB84 wife had or like Mrs Walloped had [place nearly any WW name here…]" I guess that I would choose the former. Just like "would you want to be stabbed once with a knife or 20 times with an ice-pick" the single stab would win out. But most of all I would prefer neither.

This is a situation where one needs to be careful not to minimize, but there are lots of positives in how things transpired. No less of a stab, no less of a risk to the marriage. Maybe it’s like trying to find comfort in that the knife twisted in PFB84 heart was sterilized.

My point about her confession being an indicator that she may have revealed the whole truth did not include her rationalization about the second visit. I think she is rationalizing about it and thus the mention that an IC may get to the bottom of that.

As far as some posts calling bullshit on the idea that a confession like hers is an indicator that PFB84 may have the real truth at this point, well, I get it. If your wayward confessed with no suspicion on your part but lied for months anyway then I see why you are burned and place little stock in the confession. However, they did still confess and you probably would never have known about it if they didn't, so that's something.

I am still skeptical the sex with him did not go further. And I think she is rationalizing and needs to see what she is really capable of. However, if the affair was discovered by the BS and she was telling him "I stopped in the middle of a bj", I would be far more skeptical than I am. Instead, she confessed to this almost immediately and her search history supports her story. That reduces my skepticism but even if it does not eliminate it. If I had to guess, I'd say only 5% of the cases we see here include an unforced confession. And those that do have a confession with no suspicion often occur long after the event happened. It doesn't definitively mean PFB84 has the whole truth but his WW is an outlier on SI. And I believe that it counts for something, whether she actually finished the bj or not.

On the other hand, I received an immediate confession, chose to believe it and it all worked out relatively well for me... so I am biased.

[qoute]I believe that it counts for something, whether she actually finished the bj or not.

I agree with you for the most part. PFB84 probably has enough truth on what went on to make a decision on whether or not to offer R. Especially if he assumes that there's still some rationalization and minimizing from his WW. Not enough to make a difference but there's always some. Her insistence on the reasoning for the second meeting being totally innocent though is a sign she has work to do. I think it's in both of their best interest for PFB84 to continue to hold her feet to the fire on that and the line on how far she went. At least for now.

I have agree your W has regret, but no remorse. She regrets her choices, but is refusing to see just how bad she has hurt you. She says she does, but the give away is her trying to re-write the story of her A. Do not let her. The facts speak for themselves. Her skewed truths require lots of extra details that don't really matter.

She had an A while M'd to you. Yes some stories appear worse, but the worst infidelity is the one that happenend to you. Neither of you have to live in those Ms. KWIM?

I think you need to pause making any decisions right now. You saying you want to work things out gives your W rationale to avoid the hard work she needs to do on herself. She then has a chance to make amends to you. Who has stood by her all this time supporting her in so many ways. Her A has shown a complete lack of appeeciation for that.

Keep working on yourself and you need to keep a D on the table. She isn't a true partner right now and she has her own best interest at heart. I know you don't believe me yet. She is faking right now and until she gets to a point of true remorse there is little point in trying to rebuild anything.

Ring with the same person that tore your heart out of your chest will just lead you to more pain. I am sorry, but that is the truth.

If she refuses to figure out why she was such a bad wife and can't begin to be honest with herself than R is doomed. Sure, you might stay M'd, but really that is just running out the clock and not living life.

I always say that WS need to hit rock bottom before they really understand what the A has done to their spouse. She needs those consequences and you need to stop being the person that helps her avoids those. Facts, right?

She deserves a Divorce. That is the natural outcome of being caught cheating on your partner. Sure, she confessed, but does that change any of the facts here? No.

You are willing to give it a chance and that is fine. The problem is when you don't see progress or remorse over a period of time. She used the pity party for herself to allow her to cross boundaries and avoid realizing just how horrible of a wife ahe has been recently.

My W used to do that too. "You deserve better." "I can't believe I added this to your already full plate." "I am a horrible person."

When I stopped talking her out of those things and agreed with her is when she began to hit rock bottom. She began the journey to the wife I deserved. Tough love? Naw. It is more akin to I saw a never ending co-dependent cycle that I refused to take part in. Only when she showed me how she was different did I begin to see real hope for R.

PFB84. Numb&dumb hit the nail on the head. Passivity on your part will not serve you snd R well. Your resentment will build over the years and R will be derailed. You’re a good person and husband so you’ll white knuckle it and secretly be unhappy.

I recommend reading some prior threads on the topic of "but I thought things were great." You will be faking happiness and your WW will be ecstatic that she had her A, the M survived, snd her loving husband snd family are intact. Meanwhile you’re miserable and seething.

However, you won’t say a word, being the trooper you are. Why rehash her A and your pain when everyone is happy, except our of course. Then, one day you’ll reach your limit snd it all comes out. D on the table snd/or R completely derailed. Why? Because you were never in R in the first place.

Not sure if you are still around OP, but I don't think you should let her "lack of intent" bullshit stand.

Look at it this way: If she really had no intention of further physical activity - then going forward she is at risk of "unintentionally" falling mouth-first onto the dick of any man she meets.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 10:16 AM, Friday, October 14th]