SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I didn't say all men. But, this is a message that men give other men. It isn't the message women want sent out. Do I want a nice man or a cut asshole? We do want nice men. The message I objected to was "Stop being nice". What a load of crap. Yeah, go and be assholes, men.

Actually, this really isn't the message that most men give other men. I was raised to be the "nice guy". Most of my friends in HS were "nice guys". Even in college, I was mostly in the "nice guy" category. But that's where I started to see the other side of it, where some of the not so nice guys let me into their world and I started to see an uncomfortable truth. Us "nice guys" would sit around on the weekend without a date, would help girls it their homework and laundry and take them to dinner. But at night, they were going to the frat houses to meet up with/sleep with guys that were exactly the opposite of "nice". So I flipped the script, and, like others who've done this before, found that the "frat guy" mentality with women was more (dramatically more) effective in generating sexual desire in more women than the "nice guy" persona that I'd been trying before. I'd venture a guess that most guys who go down the "red pill" or "pick up artist" route have a similar experience. Yes, there are "naturals", people who are just "assholes" or "consummate Casanova's", but I don't think that most or many men who date/sleep with lots of women. It's a learned behavior (it was for me) to elicit a sexual reaction, and one that's not generally father/son material, but learned later in life as a response to "this sh*t ain't working" (being the nice guy).

It's the same for women, just perhaps a little bit more honest from all the sexes. Parents usually teach "you be you" and "your beautiful just the way you are" and then teach their children how to apply makeup, wear high heels and either they or society teaches them how to dress sexy. Those actions, much like "be a nice guy" are completely counter to the message we send young girls (just be you and you'll find "the one"). As uncomfortable as it is to say, we (as a society) seem to realize that if "being you" is not wearing makeup/pretty clothes/keeping in shape/dressing provocatively one of two things is going to happen; you won't find a mate, or more likely, you won't find as high quality a mate as you could if you'd done these things. And I'd hold out that the same exists for men, sure, I can "be me" and play video games all day, put down the weights and stop spending an hour a day approaching women (when I was dating) but.. I'm probably not going to find a mate if I do that and certainly wouldn't have found my W. The real formula for attracting attractive women is simple, be in shape, be aloof and act as if (or actually do) you have multiple options and make a lot of money in a "high status" job. Let me tell you, while this is an unknowable number, I'd bet my life that men following that routine will find they have a far more opportunities to date/sleep with/marry attractive women than men following the "just be a nice man" routine. And there's nothing wrong with that! IMHO, women should want physically fit, wealthy, "high status" men. Some of the push/pull, aloof stuff bothers me a bit, but I understand why it's attractive, people want what they feel they cannot have. It's why, IMHO, hysterical bonding is so powerful in a lot of cases, because you're not sure if you can "still have" it. I hate it (that many women are attracted to that characteristic), but me hating isn't going to change it at all.

When men try to base their life on female definitions of what a "good man" should be...that man ends up in the friend zone or worse, every...single...time.

This has been my experience as well. Truly the worst dating advice I've ever gotten has been from female friends. "Buy her something", "Take her out to dinner", etc. Never had any of that work worth a hoot for me. Without knowing a single thing about the relationship, the advice I'd give someone who's bemoaning lack of interest from a woman is simple, "Stop calling her, cut her off and wait". Pretty much the 180, just in dating terms.

Can't stand the Red Pill bullshit.

Like most things, the problem with RP stuff is that there's a LOT of bullshit with a few gems in there. It takes a lot of digging to get through the BS to the good stuff. But, what the poster was saying and I agree with this, RP "dating psychology" has, for me personally, been shown to be far more effective and true to reality than more "mainstream" dating advice.

Reverse the genders and you would be screaming that men don't get to define what women should be or how they should act.

But we do. I just think we're more transparent with our desires, and women are more honest (NOT entirely, just more) with one another about what men really like. But, make no mistake, the only person's who's vote matters, the only thing that counts when determining this is "does it work on the opposite sex". Probably the best example of this would be a girl wearing a super short skirt somewhere, many of the women will think "Why would you leave the house like that" where a lot of men will think "Thank you for leaving the house like that". I'm sure she could be wearing it for comfort, but, in many cases, she's wearing is because she's following the male definition of "sexy" and what turns us on. We define what's sexy in women and women define what's sexy in men. It's just that men's definition and desires seem to line up better, "I like women in mini-skirts" and then, seeing a woman in a mini-skirt, they like it. Often times women will say "I love nice guys" but, when confronted with a nice guy, they have no sexual interest at all.

I didn't try to define masculinity, just giving my opinion that this is the wrong message men give each other. P.S. Can't stand the Red Pill bullshit. Won't scream about it, though, just let you know it is bullshit.

I wonder if comments like these are informed? or are they tipping the hand that feels threatened by a system of thought that works? That men look to other men for a way to successfully navigate inter-gender dynamics isn't bullshit if it levels the playing field. And it is a playing field.

ETA: And then there's this...

It isn't the message women want sent out.

And my response? AWWWW, too effing bad.

ETA2:

Truly the worst dating advice I've ever gotten has been from female friends.

This goes for marital advice, too. I, as a man, am better served talking to men, not women.

Last ETA done to un-generalize, or is that de-generalize? You get my point...

[This message edited by NotTheManIwas at 7:55 AM, May 7th (Tuesday)]

So in summary, it sounds like the old saying can be amended to say:

Men want a lady in the streets and a freak in the sheets

Women want a freak in the streets and a freak in the sheets

[This message edited by cheatstroke at 7:43 AM, May 7th (Tuesday)]

No insult intended, Ride.

You ask how to tell if your W is telling you the truth. I would recommend:

1) Face the pain. Take it in. Know it. Release it, or put it on the side so you can take it into account as you make your decisions.

2) Use the many logical questioning techniques that have been successful at getting to spill his/her guts. Use the same technique to resolve contradictions in your W's responses.

3) Listen to your gut. Your gut will say 'truth' or ';ie' or 'IDK.' If your gut says , 'IDK,' do not - repeat, DO NOT - force the IDK into truth or lie. Leave is as IDK.

4) Learn to live with uncertainty. Learn to live with knowing that you observe what your senses tell you, but we live in a vast universe, and our senses can tell us about only an infinitesimal part of our universe ... which means: Whatever 'it' is, it ain't necessarily so.

*****

IOW, I know there's a small possibility that my W is snowing me - after all, if she's lying to herself, she's lying to me.

But committing to her and our M is 100% or 0%. I have to make that choice without complete knowledge.

There's no way to eliminate risk.

(signed) sisoon, wearing a philosopher's hat

Actually, this really isn't the message that most men give other men

It's often seen on this site.

I think the problem I have with the message is just - it assumes the man had responsibility for his wife's affair because he wasn't a certain way. I call bullshit on that, I really do.

And to your point of women decide what's sexy for men, I agree with you. Inconsiderate jackass isn't in my definition. I have a lot of single friends right now, it's the age where many have gotten divorced. And, I will tell you they are begging to find a nice guy. They are actually pretty rare at mid-age. More commonly, they are getting dick pics and invitations for no strings encounters, which most do not partake in. They collectively tell me that it's impossible to find a connection out there, and many give up on dating.

I say that because the reality is I do think just like men leave women bitter, I think that's the case with men as well. I think if you are the rare man who can stay open, the right lady is out there and probably in more quantity than someone like you guys who are Mr. Nice guys. I can tell you that's going to be the more possible path to happiness. Or, you can get completely ripped, and attract women who only care about that. Or, you can do the red pill stuff and attract women who are broken enough to like that instead of real connection. I think it's a recipe for disaster. And, since Rideitout says we are the ones who define sexy, I can tell you for a lasting connection it's Mr. Nice guy all day long.

I also don't disagree that men find women who wear short skirts sexy. It's not a mystery to me why the men come on here and belabor the affair sex more than anything else...It's really how they do feel love. I didn't say it's how they show it really...it's that their wife desires them. It's part of a romantic relationship, it makes sense.

I can tell you for a lasting connection it's Mr. Nice guy all day long.

HO, firstly, much respect for how you've evolved. That preface needed saying, but your line above preaches to the wrong choir. Given the BH's experience, that line above will get zero traction. Speaking personally, I categorically reject it.

ETA: I'll add that in the aftermath of betrayal, your line above inadvertently does the BH a disservice. We're looking for what works, not some Pollyanna platitude.

[This message edited by NotTheManIwas at 9:10 AM, May 7th (Tuesday)]

Well, Rideitout said women get to decide what is sexy. If that is true, and I believe it is, it precludes you from having an opinion about what women think is sexy in a man.

I think you miss my point - the affair is never a statement about YOU. I know that's hard to internalize, but your wife didn't fuck someone because he was better. She fucked someone else because she herself is or was fucked up.

If you want to tell me what a man thinks is sexy, (I am not asking you to tell me, I do think I have a handle on that) then I think it's valid. You are a man and you would know. But, don't base changing yourself from being the best man you can be because someone else was disloyal to you.

The whole thing is - if you let your spouse cheating on you define your self worth, then you need to work on defining that for yourself. Her cheating has nothing to do with you being worthy of more ---especially if you are a nice guy. Again, I will tell you I have a gaggle of girlfriends who can not find one, you would be a commodity if you are one.

ETA: I am 100% certain that I would have vultures circling my husband to come in if they thought for one minute we were having problems. They all think he's sexy and a lot of that is because of how reliable of a partner he is. I am the asshat who decided to forget that.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:14 AM, May 7th (Tuesday)]

We're looking for what works, not some Pollyanna platitude.

And that's what the "just be a nice guy" thing sounds like to me. I think the equivalent for a woman would be "The way to man's heart is through his stomach". Well, yes, it's nice, and it's not a bad thing, but in no way would I ever consider dating a woman because she's a good cook. The way to my heart is through my eyes (pretty/sexy), mind (good conversation) and yes, a bit lower than my stomach (sexy). But telling any woman "The way to RIO's heart is food and conversation" does her a great disservice (if, for some crazy reason, she decides she wants to date me) because it's not at all the entire story. I'd much rather date a sexy woman who's great in bed but can't cook soup in the microwave than a 5 star chef who's unattractive and frigid in bed. Not what people want to hear perhaps, but, it's just my personal reality. And I think that we're far more honest with women, encouraging them to do the things that men find attractive (mini-skirts and makeup that appears like a "sex flush", for example) while doing the opposite for men "Just be a good guy". Well, that might be a good mantra (in fact, it is) to live by, but it's not the thing that's most likely to incite sexual desire in a woman anymore than slaving away in the kitchen is going to incite desire in most men. It's a "nice to have" not a must have.

HO, all I'll say in response is this...

We're looking for what works, not some Pollyanna platitude.

Rarely has this man received "what works" from a woman's opinion. Other men can chime in if they concur or otherwise. I'm pushing 60 and I think that's enuf time to ascertain whether men opining to me has more value than that of women with an "agenda."

I welcome what you say. It fleshes out my context. But for functional "works," I wanna hear from a "brother."

ETA: I am 100% certain that I would have vultures circling my husband to come in if they thought for one minute we were having problems. They all think he's sexy and a lot of that is because of how reliable of a partner he is. I am the asshat who decided to forget that.

Ok, lady, stop right there. I've been following your posts for some time, and his reliability isn't what you've (maybe inadvertently) expressed as sexy. What I've gotten from your myriad posts is that yours is a self assured (not to be fucked with) man. You ran the risk of losing what "truly" attracted other women to him.

Look... you wanna argue? fine. I'm just saying what I've discerned having followed you (with admiration, I might add) for some time now.

Um, so, which friends?

Ok, lady, stop right there. I've been following your posts for some time, and his reliability isn't what you've (maybe inadvertently) expressed as sexy. What I've gotten from your myriad posts is that yours is a self assured (not to be fucked with) man. You ran the risk of losing what "truly" attracted other women to him.

Look... you wanna argue? fine. I'm just saying what I've discerned having followed you (with admiration, I might add) for some time now.

I wouldn't argue that I like that he respects himself - enough not to let what I did define him or his own worth. And, I don't need his paycheck, or whatever else you might be talking about in terms of reliability. But, he has been the one who has been there for me. He's been honest with me, and he's been kind to me. I would definitely say those things are sexy. It does help that I also like certain talents he has. But, overall he is a good and nice man, and yes that is part of what makes him sexy.

Um, so, which friends?

K, that shit is funny...

Again, I will tell you I have a gaggle of girlfriends who can not find one, you would be a commodity if you are one.

And I have plenty of guy friends who are "reliable" and respectable men who can't get a date to save their life. Wonder why this might be? IMHO, it's because they (the guys, not sure about the women) are going about it the entirely wrong way. They are nice men, but they attract no female attention because "nice and reliable" while it might be what your girlfriends opine to desire when actually confronted with it, they feel no attraction. The men they are attracted to are my "other" group of friends, the guys out carousing and using plenty of "red pill" techniques on women to generate interest and sexual desire.

The results, frankly, speak for themselves. I know good looking guys who can't get a date in a whore house because they are far "too nice" and very average/overbearing/a**hole men who've cheated on their wive with more women than I've slept with in my entire life by being the "aloof asshole" and using psychological manipulation techniques to get women into bed.

In some ways, I feel like this is telling a woman "just wear baggy jeans, your Disney t-shirt to a nightclub; don't worry about doing your hair or makeup; guys will like you for you". Well, maybe, if you're exceptionally attractive and that's noticable under the mouse ears shirt, it might work. But what will work a LOT better is doing your makeup, doing your hair, putting on the 4in heels, push up bra and short skirt and going to the club. We can all want and aspire to better, but, the reality is, most of us aren't better. There's a reason the makeup and cosmetics industry is worth what it is, because it works. If it didn't, women would stop doing it. And I think that's what we're seeing now in men, they are "stopping" the nice guy routine because it doesn't work, at least not as well as the other stuff does. And older women who are dating are just dealing with more guys who've been there/done that and have gone the other route. You can't find nice guys because the nice guys have all become the thing that "works" to get what they want. Just like you can't find a girl in a Mickey Mouse t-shirt in a club. If it worked equally well to the miniskirt and heels, I'm sure women would wear a tshirt, it's more comfortable and probably more "the real them" than the skirt and shoes. But we don't even try to push that agenda with women, where we do with men; filling their heads with behaviors that simply do not stimulate sexual desire in most women. A little intellectual honesty would be good, I'm not going to claim that I don't find women dressed in miniskirts sexy, I do! It works. And perhaps that's the difference, we all "know" that it works on men, where a lot of think that it doesn't work in the reverse on women. No, not all women, but just like "most men" are attracted to women in miniskirts it seems that "many women" are attracted to men exhibiting "red pill" mentality. Certainly the women who are open to ONS or affairs, which, of course, a lot of those guys are specifically looking to attract with these behaviors (certainly, speaking for myself, I was).

It does help that I also like certain talents he has. But, overall he is a good and nice man, and yes that is part of what makes him sexy.

<sigh> Calling you out. If he was smarmy in any way, you'd not have evolved. Just sayin'...

@NotTheManIWas

And my response? AWWWW, too effing bad.

My response, too bad. That is how most women feel.

A little intellectual honesty would be good,

Here, here...

I didn't say all men. But, this is a message that men give other men.

I've been thinking about that a bunch lately... just who is it holding the yardstick for what is masculine and what is not. If anyone has read any work by Terrence Real, I think they'd agree that there needs to be something of a male revolution, akin to women's lib. I can imagine a movement where males in our society break through the chains of stereotype and learn to embrace themselves as emotionally whole human beings. Boys and men are shoved into the social construct of "masculinity" like square pegs pounded into round holes. They bleed shame whenever anyone notices that it's not a perfect fit, and they hide that shame in feats of grandiosity and aggressive attitudes, standing guard over the very prison of patriarchal convention which has diminished them. The conditioning is so thorough that most don't notice that they, themselves, are holding the key to freedom.

No one "emasculates" a man but that man himself. Because HE is the one who defines his own masculinity. HE is the one who decides if he's man enough. And although others may try, it's completely within his power to refuse to be shamed or form-fitted into a social construct.

My response, too bad. That is how most women feel.

I know, right? And in a gyno-influenced world, that's all that fuckin' matters now, yeah?

In some ways, I feel like this is telling a woman "just wear baggy jeans, your Disney t-shirt to a nightclub; don't worry about doing your hair or makeup; guys will like you for you". Well, maybe, if you're exceptionally attractive and that's noticable under the mouse ears shirt, it might work. But what will work a LOT better is doing your makeup, doing your hair, putting on the 4in heels, push up bra and short skirt and going to the club. We can all want and aspire to better,

I don't disagree at all with what initially attracts people. Obviously, I work hard to be attractive to H. I am not saying don't work out, be your best you. But, I am saying in a long term relationship we do want Mr. Nice Guy. I am not saying Mr. Nice Guy can't slam me up against a wall - I am just saying that reliability and niceness DOES stoke the fires in a long term marriage. We do want that sweetness, and we do want you to be you. There is a big difference between attracting a new mate and keeping one. The bad boy thing only works short term. Just like the hot girl that dresses up for you is probably hanging out on sunday morning in yoga pants and messy bun, wearing her glasses instead of contacts, might not have even brushed her teeth yet and you still want to jump her right then and there.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:47 AM, May 7th (Tuesday)]