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It is called integrity. One of the best and sexiest fucking traits anyone can have. Added bonus, you can be proud of and respect yourself, too.

And while my mind agrees with you, my experiences do not line up with this.

Let me make this about me personally to make sure I'm not projecting.. I knew a lot of really nice, honest women with integrity and caring when I was younger and dating. Women who were smart, women who would make great mothers. All admirable and valuable traits, no doubt. But not the kind of women I dated (in general), because, putting it bluntly, they didn't sexually arouse me. You can have all the integrity in the world, but, if you're not attractive to me sexually, I'm not going to date you. It's the filter through which all people are put into buckets. No matter how awesome you are, if you're just not attractive me, integrity or not, I'm not going to want to date you.

Now, I realize this is different for women. I could look at a woman and give you a "yes/no" answer in 10 seconds as to "would you date her". Yes, that's shallow. But it's also true, no amount of "but she's a great person" will make me feel a sexual attraction, no matter how much I might want it to.. It just won't.

And perhaps that's where it's different for women, they weight things differently. So, without integrity, no matter how hot the guy is, it's just a "no" (although that seriously calls into question how any woman gets into an A if "integrity" is high on the selection criteria list; apart from killing kittens in your spare time for fun, I'm not sure how much less integrity someone could have than engaging in an A). But for me, without sexual attraction, it's just a "No". No amount of integrity or kindness will change it, I might love you and be in awe of you as a person, but I won't want to sleep with you, and that's how I differentiate between lovers and friends.

I'm going out on limb here, but my personal experience doesn't rate "integrity" as a value that many women select for. In fact, during the time when I was having the most sex of my life, I'd say that my personal "integrity" was about 0. If you were a woman and my mouth was moving, I was probably lying or playing some angle to get you into bed. And yet, the results spoke for themselves, 0 integrity, a lot of game and lots and lots of sex. Now, in my M, I'd say my integrity was very high, I worked hard to make sure I kept my word and worked to make our lives better together. And the sex was near an all time low for me. So, while I don't question that you select for integrity and find it attractive, I'd put forth that the prevalence of female A's and my (and other men's) experience in giving women what the "Red Pill" says they want indicates that perhaps your not that common? And that really is a question, I don't know. It seems like people want to put forth things like "I just want a girl who's honest, loving and kind" as their selection criteria, but, when they meet that girl, they run in the other direction because she's not what they really want.. I see less of this in men, but I think both sexes are guilty here.

@Rustylife, you are wise beyond your years.

Rideitout,

This argument you are making is a red herring. No one is trying to argue that a certain level of personal hygiene and fucking basic maintenance of your appearance are should be irrelevant. The issue is the idea that some sort of base level alteration and dishonesty about who you are as a person inside is a good fucking strategy for getting your dick wet. There is world of a difference between washing your hair or putting on flattering clothing and purposely acting like a fucking dickwad. Continuing to try and conflate the two to further your argument is ridiculous.

And as for this “don’t hate the player hate the games” kind of statement here:

But just because I don't want it to be a "game" doesn't change the nature of it

That kind of argument is the basest sort of rationalization. To paraphrase our moms yet again: Just because everyone is fucking doing it doesn’t make it ok. If men suddenly decide to go all cromagnon again whacking women over the head with clubs and dragging them off to there caves to fuck them I am going to fucking object to that shit. And if someone tries to tell me that that’s how the “game” is played then I will be sitting that fucking game out.

Again, it’s character, either you have it or you don’t. I would argue that doing the right thing, especially when it doesn’t necessarily get you the outcome you desire, is pretty much the fucking definition of character.

And I ask again: How what you are advocating any fucking different than the pick me dance that I have seen you condem time and time again?. Both involve compromising your core values and beliefs and putting on a false front to try and manipulate another person into liking/loving you. Again, I would argue that they are just 2 sides of the same damn coin. Do prefer the one over the other because one portrays strength while the other portrays weakness? Is it a dominance vs submissive thing?

Additionally, I reject your premise that one has to “play the game or be a virgin”. Again, how do you answer my statement that I got plenty of sex in my teens and twenties all whilst being a “nice guy”. Fuck I even liked playing dungeons and dragons to use your earlier example . Sure I combed my hair nicely and tried to dress flatteringly as well but I certainly didn’t try to be a “bad guy”.

Ht

Do you honestly think that if he hadn't pushed her in a certain way that she wouldn't have cheated?

Yes. I'm certain of it in fact. I know I could have prevented it and didn't act. Now, SHOULD I have had to act? The answer is a resounding NO, F**K NO in fact. But could I have stopped it? Yes, I could have, no question in my mind at all. Now I know that other people have different situations and I don't feel that many, most, or even a large majority of affairs could have been stopped by the BS. But I know I could have and didn't. Perhaps the biggest mistake of my life.

A grown, educated adult woman was so powerless against these tricks?

No more than a man is powerless against a mini-skirt. If you're reading "cannot resist the catnip that is pick up artistry" you're reading me wrong.

you are stuck on this predator AP pushing the 'right buttons' route.

Because that's the reality. That's what happened. Now, did she let him push the buttons? Of course. Should she have even been in a "button pushing" situation? No, absolutely not. But, yes, the AP woke up that morning and thought "this is the day I'm gonna try to f**k Mrs. RIO" and then, that's exactly what he did. Just like it's what I'd do in an A. The concept of "sliding into bed" with another person is foreign to me, if I'm getting in bed, it's because I took action to get there. And he was exactly the same as me (sick as it makes me to say that).

Your WW was no victim.

On this point, we totally agree. Just like "victims" of con men, or ponzi schemes or other "taxation on the stupid" aren't usually victims either, they are greedy, stupid or both.

I’m sure as shit not going to tailor my behavior to fit some image just because I think it’s more likely to get me laid.

That’s the kind of guy I like, personally. I’ve been attracted to “nice guys”, guys with “game”, and guys with various combinations thereof, but what they all have in common is they were being themselves. That’s what this girl likes.

And I ask again: How what you are advocating any fucking different than the pick me dance that I have seen you condem time and time again?. Both involve compromising your core values and beliefs and putting on a false front to try and manipulate another person into liking/loving you. Again, I would argue that they are just 2 sides of the same damn coin. Do prefer the one over the other because one portrays strength while the other portrays weakness? Is it a dominance vs submissive thing?

OK, this is getting too heated, so I'm going to pick and choose and try not to offend.

I don't advocate for the "pick me" dance because it doesn't work. If it did work, and most people who did it went on to have good R's, I'd change my tune. I do not feel the same about the dating game, if acting a certain way didn't work, in my personal experience, I'd tell people "don't do that". But it does work, again, in my experience; so I advocate differently.

Additionally, I reject your premise that one has to “play the game or be a virgin”. Again, how do you answer my statement that I got plenty of sex in my teens and twenties all whilst being a “nice guy”. Fuck I even liked playing dungeons and dragons to use your earlier example . Sure I combed my hair nicely and tried to dress flatteringly as well but I certainly didn’t try to be a “bad guy”.

I'd say your probably better looking than I am. Or had more hobbies that gave you common interests/interactions with women. Or that the women you interacted with were more sexually free than those I interacted with. Or that maybe your a natural with women and can just "be you" and they find that attractive. And no matter what the cause, I'm deeply jealous and envious of you.

That’s the kind of guy I like, personally. I’ve been attracted to “nice guys”, guys with “game”, and guys with various combinations thereof, but what they all have in common is they were being themselves. That’s what this girl likes.

I guess the problem is, if I'm "being myself" we'd never cross paths or speak. It took active engagement from me to go out and meet women, and that engagement meant that I had to be "someone else" at least a little bit. The guy who likes to go to a bar (not me). The guy who likes to go to expensive dinners (not me). The guy who likes to go to spin classes (not me). As a married man, I can honestly say, if I were looking for an AP, I have 0 people in my social circle I can call because I don't know any women I'd care to have an A with. And unless I altered my social circle after D, it would be the same. The "real me" doesn't meet women, I type, I code, I think, I walk.. I have lots of hobbies that are very solitary or, if not, 99% men who participate in them. Sure, I could (and would) pick up new hobbies if I D'ed and was looking for a new partner, but, would that really be me? Going to spin class wearing my best new tights? Or would that be me putting on a "front" to try to meet women?

[This message edited by Rideitout at 12:03 PM, May 7th (Tuesday)]

OK, this is getting too heated, so I'm going to pick and choose and try not to offend.

Just to be clear in the absence of body language tone or context...I’m not feeling heated.... I just really really like to say fuck a lot. Like a whole lot. Really, ask anyone

And RIO, I completely agree that one can have all the [insert admirable qualities here] in the world, but if the attraction isn’t there, it’s irrelevant.

I don't advocate for the "pick me" dance because it doesn't work. If it did work, and most people who did it went on to have good R's, I'd change my tune. I do not feel the same about the dating game, if acting a certain way didn't work, in my personal experience, I'd tell people "don't do that". But it does work, again, in my experience; so I advocate differently.

So, manipulation is okay as long as it results in the desired outcome?

Just to be clear in the absence of body language tone or context...I’m not feeling heated.... I just really really like to say fuck a lot. Like a whole lot. Really, ask anyone

My language is quite... um, peppered, IRL too. I can't count the number of times I've had to edit.

And, as for something working or not being the primary criterion of wether or not to do it, let me just say:

Bilking old people out of their social security works.

Selling methanphetamine to middle schoolers is a booming market and works a real treat.

But I won’t be doing either of those anytime soon. Efficacy as a sole argument ignores the importance of ethical behavior. You can make a better argument than that.

Just to be clear in the absence of body language tone or context...I’m not feeling heated.... I just really really like to say fuck a lot. Like a whole lot. Really, ask anyone

LOL, OK then..

This argument you are making is a red herring. No one is trying to argue that a certain level of personal hygiene and fucking basic maintenance of your appearance are should be irrelevant. The issue is the idea that some sort of base level alteration and dishonesty about who you are as a person inside is a good fucking strategy for getting your dick wet. There is world of a difference between washing your hair or putting on flattering clothing and purposely acting like a fucking dickwad. Continuing to try and conflate the two to further your argument is ridiculous.

I'd say it's inarguable that for me, personally, some "base level alteration" was a fantastic strategy for getting my dick wet. It worked. In fact, it worked so well that eventually it became "natural" (and let me tell you, that was truly terrifying to realize what I'd become). But I just can't see arguing against it, anymore than I can see arguing that wearing a mini-skirt and 4in heels to a club is going to get you more male attention and sexual opportunity than wearing your Micky Mouse t-shirt and old jeans. Clean or not. Hair done or not. People do these things because it works. And society changes, years ago it was corsets, big hair, unshaven legs, beards.. But all of it, when it stops working, people move on and do something else/new. If it doesn't work, it's adoption falls and eventually it dies (when will bell bottoms come back!!).

I'm not actually talking about being a "dickwad". Although it may seem that way to some, it's more about being aloof and unavailable. That's the essence of "game"; options, dressed nicely, stimulate desire with conversation.. That can be done ethically (like my W wearing revealing clothes around the bedroom) or it can be done unethically (wearing those clothes to meet the AP). And I'd agree, most of the time, it's further to the "unethical side" than not. Yes, I'd outright lie about things if I couldn't deflect them entirely. That was rare, but it did happen. I'd say it would be like a girl getting called on a "falsie" or a push up bra.. Eventually, yes, my boobs aren't that big/perky, it's the bra. But most of the time, it's just nice to look at and nobody calls you on it.

@HT

I just really really like to say fuck a lot. Like a whole lot. Really, ask anyone

OMG! I knew I fucking liked you and your posts and now I fucking know why! I like to say fuck a lot, too, and am always amazed when people think I am angry.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 12:17 PM, May 7th (Tuesday)]

I'd say your probably better looking than I am. Or had more hobbies that gave you common interests/interactions with women. Or that the women you interacted with were more sexually free than those I interacted with. Or that maybe your a natural with women and can just "be you" and they find that attractive. And no matter what the cause, I'm deeply jealous and envious of you.

In fairness I guess another possibility is that I actually am an asshole and I just think I’m a nice guy.

Just in the interest of exploring all possibilities.

As someone who has been watching this thread in both interest in horror I just wanted to jump in and let HoldingTogether know that I've really (fucking ) appreciated your recent posts on this topic. They reflect the sort of confidence/authenticity that I think many women would probably be actually attracted to. I also think that your comments may have the ability to get through in a way that a lot of similar comments by women might not....

RIO - I think you're conflating initial physical attraction with the qualities that one looks for in a long-term mate. Certainly you married your wife for more than her mini-skirt.

Just to be clear in the absence of body language tone or context...I’m not feeling heated.... I just really really like to say fuck a lot. Like a whole lot. Really, ask anyone

And just to clear the decks, this is not me. I only cuss on here to place emphasis and create the place holder for body language tone or context. Just sayin'

Fuck.

And I mean that 14 different ways.

Seems an appropriate time to share a true story I heard a few weeks ago.

A woman is at a black tie event with her husband in the 80s in Chicago. They are apart in separate parts of the ballroom and the woman is approached by an attractive man of similar age. Looking right into her eyes, he says without introduction "You wanna fuck?"

Startled she replies, "No...I don't. You must get slapped a lot by asking that question!?!"

He replied, "Yes I do. But I also get fucked a lot."

RIO,

I see your point. I agree that it’s not necessarily easy to happen to meet a compatible partner (for just sex OR also a relationship) just by going about one’s natural business.

I, somehow, have managed to find a few satisfactory relationships that included good sex AND two marriages (albeit to the same man, fair enough) without the benefit of bars OR spin class, and indeed without much altering my usual behavior, but I suppose I’ve just been lucky.

I see your point. I agree that it’s not necessarily easy to happen to meet a compatible partner (for just sex OR also a relationship) just by going about one’s natural business.

Especially when you've spent most of your adult life actively snubbing and maintaining distance from women. I'm sure it would be easier if I hadn't done that, but, then again, I wasn't exactly looking to keep a few on the "back burner" after I met my W.

I don't want to make it overly bleak, I know where to go to meet women and likely to find new partners. I'm sure I'd spend more time there if I were to D. But it would be an active effort, "going out tonight to see if I can meet/sleep with someone" not something that happens in the course of my day to day life. Day to day, I might not see anyone I'm attracted to for weeks at a time. Partially because I don't live in a city, and partially because I actively avoid the places women hang out for the places that I enjoy that are less female friendly.