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So, was the OM who interloped upon your marriage just doing what nature intended him to do? following his natural inclinations? emulating acceptable learned behavior to get a sexual reward? Is he not responsible for trespassing on your marriage and on your life?

I don't understand. What point are you making here?

are going about it the entirely wrong way. They are nice men, but they attract no female attention because "nice and reliable" while it might be what your girlfriends opine to desire when actually confronted with it, they feel no attraction. The men they are attracted to are my "other" group of friends, the guys out carousing and using plenty of "red pill" techniques on women to generate interest and sexual desire.

See, I have an issue with this whole concept of “going about it the wrong way”. Like it’s all some stupid game where I’m trying to out maneuver the opposing team so I can “score”.

I am a nice guy simply because I like being a nice guy. Not as a fucking strategy to accomplish some fucking goal. My core personality and behaviors are internally driven not externally guided. If 99% of women didn’t value me because I’m a “nice guy” then fuck them I’ll try and find me a 1 percenter out there somewhere. I’m sure as shit not going to tailor my behavior to fit some image just because I think it’s more likely to get me laid.

I try to live my life in a manner that reflects my internal value structure. If that doesn’t necessarily get me what I want from other people? Well shit, guess it sucks to be me but I’m not going to compromise my values for some arbitrary rules of the “game”. That’s called character and in my book character fucking matters.

Not to paraphrase all of our mothers overly much but... if a woman doesn’t value me for the person I am I don’t want her as a “friend” anyway.

I seriously do not get this mentality sometimes. I mean really, how is acting all “red pill” any less of a fucking pick me dance than trying to nice a woman back? It’s just some kind of bizzaro world mirror image of the same fucking thing. It’s compromising your integrity and altering your behavior and value system to try and make someone love you (or fuck you I guess). It’s two sides of the same damn coin.

I don’t want a woman to be attracted to some persona that I project. I want her to be attracted to me. To the person I am. And that person is a nice fucking guy, full stop.

And just for the record. Before I finally settled down and married, I had a managed to enjoy a rich, full, and varied sex life with more than the average number of willing partners over the years. Most of whom I remained friendly with after we had ended the romantic aspect of our relationships. And I managed to accomplish all of that whilst, dare I say despite, being a “nice guy”. So not only do I object to the methodology of this whole “red pill” argument, I repudiate it’s entire fucking premise that somehow nice guys finish last.

The whole thing has always struck me as some kind of misogynistic anger born out of curdled bitterness from past rejections. Fuck, I get it, rejection sucks ass, but for gods sakes you just gotta sack up, dust yourself off and keep on trying to find someone who values you for the person that you are not the person that you fucking think they want you to be.

It’s all this stupid fucking game playing and validation seeking and disingenuousness that causes so many problems in male female relationships.

Or maybe I’m wrong, I’m sure you all will let me know.

HT

But, walking around with that mentality is a story that you keep telling yourself that keeps you locked in misery. If your wife (not yours specifically RIO - talking generally now) is not willing to make an investment in you that shows you that she is all in after being given that opportunity, then all you are doing is torturing yourself (and emasculating yourself) by staying. If you are staying, and she is investing, then at some point (not talking to newbies) you have to put down the story you are telling yourself and holding you back from your own happiness. It's just as easy to believe that your wife was put into a trance by a magical penis as it is to believe that your wife had some shit to fix that had nothing to do with you, what you do or don't do.

HO, but what if? What if the dumbass like me is trying to thread a different needle? What if, because of the immense time that I've spent building a family and legacy which means fuck-all to me, I'm looking for a path to what I want? And what if using married-RedPill concepts I've actually seen a change in the way my Wayward has begun interacting with me? I'm saying that this is the narrative currently explored and without naming names is being scoffed at. How one behaves affects their surroundings. This is my takeaway from the last year. Hard stop...

Or maybe I’m wrong, I’m sure you all will let me know.

Had to laugh; made my post and saw that you beat me to the punch. No, brother, won't say you are wrong. But neither am I. The narrative I now subscribe to is presenting the most marketable version of myself to get what I want. Flail away if you care...

It’s all this stupid fucking game playing and validation seeking and disingenuousness that causes so many problems in male female relationships.

There was so many good quotes from your post, HT, that I found myself just highlighting your whole post. Good post. Maybe some men can receive it better hearing it from a man. Or, not.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 10:51 AM, May 7th (Tuesday)]

The moment women stop rewarding men for being the "handsome asshole" is the moment the red pill/pick up artist stuff will stop.

Another poster in this thread mentioned that the advice that men should work out and stop being nice isn't the message men should be sent. Well, if you want to send a different message, the above quote is how it's done. When women start giving bad boys the cold shoulder and fucking nice guys instead, the message will change.

Is it likely? Doesn't seem that way to me. Like the other men here, it's been my experience that being emotionally available and kind gets me the kind of platonic appreciation I want nothing to do with while being kind of a jerk and playing games gets me invited to stay the night. I've only been around for 30 years but during that time I've seen this pattern play out consistently. Women claim to want one thing but respond to something else, and the guys whose natural state is to be the "handsome asshole" or who learn to play the part reap the benefits while the guys who insist on being nice guys spend their nights alone. This won't change until being a bad boy is no longer consistently rewarded.

Rideitout, how weak that you had to fake your personality to get the desired attention. It speaks more about your own inauthentic nature and you hiding your real self behind such trite generalities. Nothing 'alpha' or 'red pilled' about that. Also, I don't see what this topic has got to do with infidelity. Theorizing on how the AP scored with your partner is useless. It gives the BS this false notion that you could've done something to stop it. If only their pure WS was aware of their devious little ways. Many BH here put their wives on a pedestal who was charmed by this conniving Casanova who had what they didn't. It's their own form of coping with the affair. It minimizes the involvement of the woman and again puts undue burden on the men involved.

AP in my case looked like poor man's version of Jack Black. I've never met him but my friends told me that he's a self depreciating introvert who struggles to carry a conversation. Also a bit passive aggressive. Basically the opposite of me(straight forward, generally affable). So who was the alpha and who was the beta here? Did my EX choosing him means he is a 'better man' than me? Such a weird topic this. No bearing on anything infidelity related.

It’s all this stupid fucking game playing and validation seeking and disingenuousness that causes so many problems in male female relationships.

I think that a ton of women with broken ankles and hammer toe from wearing high heels AND a bunch of men who spent too much of their lives learning "game" to get women into bed would agree with you. But just because I don't want it to be a "game" doesn't change the nature of it. It's like saying people who provide immense value to society should make a lot of money (teachers, for example). Sure, they should, but they don't. And I can either accept it and choose another job (what I did), or follow my passion and make a less than wonderful salary. I don't want it to be that way, I don't want to have to make that decision (put simply, a lot of sexual options and access or "be myself" and go without).

I wish we (humans) could stop playing most of the games that we play with one and to take advantage of one another. But wishing won't change the reality. I wish I could eat burgers and fries for every meal of the day, not go to the gym and still look like a fitness model. I wish a lot of things, but, if I want to look like a fitness model, I better start eating right and working out. Wishing away reality doesn't make it any less real.

Rideitout, how weak that you had to fake your personality to get the desired attention.

I'll just look past the personal insult and ask "how weak is it of women to "have to" paint their faces and wear push up bras to get the desired attention"? Sure, I'd love to be the guy who gave 0 f**ks and had women throwing themselves at me from moving cars. That wasn't me. I suspect it's VERY FEW men. Speaking personally, I had to learn "what women want" and then learn how to give it to them. Weak? I suppose. Effective? You godd**n right it is.

The best twist on all this.. In the land of cosmic karma, I got mine. You see, all those lines/techniques I learned to get women interested/sexually aroused? Same exact things my W's AP used on her. So, what goes around, comes around.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 11:08 AM, May 7th (Tuesday)]

I wish we (humans) could stop playing most of the games that we play with one and to take advantage of one another.

The thing is, you don't have to participate. It is a choice.

NTV...

Ya know I blame Aerosmith for all of this.

Dude (Looks Like a Lady)

This???

Well... I was thinking walk this way. But if that's your thing no judgment here.

Great post, HoldingTogether. If we had a standing ovation emoji, I'd be using it right now.

What's interesting, if we're taking the discussion back to infidelity, is that not every cheater is a "red pill" guy or and "alpha male" or whatever other descriptive labels might be in use. Some, like my fWH are actually the "nice guy" type. My fWH certainly was.... and wow, did the girls ever eat it up. He had no lack of interested females back in the day, including me. I wouldn't have even noticed him if it weren't for that, let alone married him.

It wasn't until the midlife when he broke down. Underneath it all, he could feel the sting of nonconformity, the toxic shame of not being "masculine" enough in his self-view to fit the social script surrounding him. According to Terrence Real, this happens to quite a number of men. They end up pushing away covert depression and feelings of insecurity which have sometimes stalked them for many years, burning their lives down in the flames of grandiosity. And the saddest part is that most of them don't even know why.

Authenticity is the answer. Not conformity to someone else's standard or game-playing. It's the only way to be truly accepted for who you really are.

The thing is, you don't have to participate. It is a choice.

I can't argue with that. But, if I hadn't, I might be the 40+ year old virgin today. No, you don't have to participate, but.. If you want to have sex.. Well you're probably going to have to cave in at some point. Maybe not, some men are really that attractive/rich or are just "naturals" that I'm sure they don't have to play any "game". I was/am not one of those men. Just like some women are so beautiful that they can wear a smock out of the house and have men tripping over themselves to talk to them. Most, however, are not, and that's where makeup/heels/sexy clothes help them compete.

If the choice was "Play Dungeons and Dragons with my friends and have lots of pretty women available for dates without lying" well, of course I would have chosen that. Nobody WANTS to learn "game" or how to stimulate sexual desire, they just want it (sexual desire) to be there. But that's not the real choice, the real choice is "Play D&D, then masturbate" or "Go act a certain way to women and have sex". Most people would far prefer to "be themselves" but become other people to elicit a certain response. It's why I wear suits to business meetings, because of the results that it gets me, not because I enjoy suits or dressing nicely.

Ya know I blame Aerosmith for all of this.

Dude (Looks Like a Lady)

This???

Well... I was thinking walk this way. But if that's your thing no judgment here.

Well effing Ouch.

The thing is, you don't have to participate. It is a choice.

Yeah, sure. Easily said as a woman.

I'll just look past the personal insult and ask "how weak is it of women to "have to" paint their faces and wear push up bras to get the desired attention"? Sure, I'd love to be the guy who gave 0 f**ks and had women throwing themselves at me from moving cars. That wasn't me. I suspect it's VERY FEW men. Speaking personally, I had to learn "what women want" and then learn how to give it to them. Weak? I suppose. Effective? You godd**n right it is.

Right... Or, whatever, stay frustrated but true to your convictions.

It's why I wear suits to business meetings, because of the results that it gets me, not because I enjoy suits or dressing nicely.

IOW's, real life shit...

stay frustrated but true to your convictions.

It is called integrity. One of the best and sexiest fucking traits anyone can have. Added bonus, you can be proud of and respect yourself, too.

It is called integrity. One of the best and sexiest fucking traits anyone can have. Added bonus, you can be proud of and respect yourself, too.

Completely agree. You could not have said something I more thoroughly agree with. And I'll add, balance that with a dose of life's realities.

It wasn't meant as an insult and I apologize if you felt that way. Just that you saying that you were basically 'forced' to act a certain way even if you didn't really want to is not owning your s**t. And man, you beat yourself up and give the AP too much credit while using this to excuse your wife. Do you honestly think that if he hadn't pushed her in a certain way that she wouldn't have cheated? A grown, educated adult woman was so powerless against these tricks? This is a constant theme in your posts. A way to absolve your WW. While so many Waywards have noted the different routes their affair took, you are stuck on this predator AP pushing the 'right buttons' route. Your WW was no victim. Only we the betrayed are the ones who have zero culpability.

Also, Push up bras? Make up? Please. Some use them. Some don't. Same with men. Some hide their insecurities behind this PUA stuff while most don't. There's so much variance and you've reduced the whole thing to a binary view. Lastly, I don't see how discussing mating strategies is related to infidelity.

Oh I forgot about the question I wished to ask. Let us assume that this alpha beta binary exists. Did any betrayed husband here feels/felt that the AP was 'more Alpha' than them?

I certainly don't think so. There's basically zero similarities between me and my XWW's AP.