SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Whenever we experience a trauma, our brains automatically try to figure out why it happened and how to avoid similar trauma in the future. Burn yourself on a hot stove, for instance, and your brain rewires itself to ensure that you don't do it again.

The betrayal of infidelity is a trauma. Our brains automatically, instinctively try to figure out why we were betrayed. It's a perfectly natural response. "What did I do wrong to warrant this trauma" is simply how the brain functions. The "pick-me dance" is a normal and natural reaction.

Even I experienced this after my ex had a ONS. No affair, no "in luv" with another man, no reason at all to feel I was in a competition. It didn't last long, a couple of weeks. Anger took over quickly enough and I saw that shit for what it was.

Your mental masturbation on the subject may be impressive to you, and even feel good, but you're missing something that only experience can teach: compassion and empathy.

Yes, the "pick-me dance" doesn't work. Yes, it can have the opposite effect intended. Yes, it is a bit self-degrading. It is, nevertheless, extremely common, completely expected, and perfectly natural.

Denigrating those who experience this is not going to help anyone. Sharing our personal experiences, helping others to understand why it happens, on an individual basis, is going to help, even if you have to do so over and over again. Generally speaking, 2x4s aren't necessary, won't typically register, and are often simply cruel to a betrayed spouse in a world of pain and confusion.

***

What is going on, hahaha, don't want to go all morbs here but reading comprehension feels at an all time low today

This was not funny or amusing at all, incredibly uncool, exceptionally immature and cruel.

@Unhinged

Jeez, do you ever have a day off? Must be some fun at parties.

I can take disagreements, hell I have them on here all the time here but generally they offer something valuable in the dialogue. This is usually why I wouldn't encourage our interactions. I don't think they ever seem healthy.

Your comment just ignore the full discussions that's already taken place and drags us back to square one. Literally everything in the comment. Every single thing has been raised and discussed.

Your mental masturbation on the subject may be impressive to you, and even feel good, but you're missing something that only experience can teach: compassion and empathy.

Imagine writing this

This was not funny or amusing at all, incredibly uncool, exceptionally immature and cruel.

Then this.

Right back at you tiger.

Tell you what, I've always got on with Morbs (to my mind) and we've had great chats, if she shows any level of issue over this - I will remove the section and personally message her an apology. Because clearly no offense was not intended by that joke. I'm fairly certain she won't see it that way either, lest I wouldn't have said it. But I'm sure she will appreciate your shiny white helmet and shield.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 4:36 PM, Thursday, September 3rd]

My case was different in that I was told and shut down immediately and got on with living. I did not have a choice. Too young, elderly parents, no financial help and small children. I do not know what went on because my husband was out of town and things happened. I don’t call it rug sweeping I call it packing it up and putting it in a box and hiding it in the attic.
What I read here, especially what I saw in family members, and other friends who got cheated on, the very first thing that happens is their bodies go into absolute shock. Their hormones are all over the place. They’re loaded with cortisol and adrenaline with no place to put all that energy which is designed to get them away from danger. They throw up, they have uncontrollable diarrhea. They have chills, they have fevers. They lose an enormous amount of weight. And they cry and they cry and they cry. I don’t ever want to hear another person cry as hard as I heard a family member when he was blindsided. He was left with the kids. She came back after a while and they made peace, but they never were a couple again. I don’t think he ever completely recovered from it and I don’t think any BS recovers from it completely. I’ve used this analogy before, but it’s like being shot. You would deal with the reverberations of that for the rest of your life, and you’re going to as well by being cheated on, and often times abandoned. I don’t know how human beings, who believe themselves to be moral, can turn on a family and particularly a significant other and treat them the way they do. I just keep reminding myself that we are members of the animal Kingdom and we are predators and we’ve got a whole lot under the surface. That’s not nice to think about because it goes on.

I am going to side step the exchange between you and unhinged but I am going to take a moment to just give some food for thought about the morbs/reading comprehension (though she said poor listening which is kinder).

I think what maybe you don’t expect is that we are unable to read what you write without the filter of our experiences. We have all gone though a hard earned perspective on it, even yourself being effected by your fathers choices, and his inability to relate to you in the aftermath.

What we hear in what you say isn’t what you hear in what you say.

Similarly to I really felt sort of dispassionate when I was writing my reply earlier but you read it as aggressive. Which, I admit maybe it was there without my awareness.

I do not actually hear you being toxic, or disparaging in the tone of the OP. But I can understand that people filter that through their experiences with you.

I just think in terms of if you thought we would agree, why write it? I feel like sometimes the reason that you get negative responses is because in trying to understand infidelity and all things related you tend to oversimplify it.

It’s supportive to tell bs things like hellfire wrote, or to tell the bs you are the prize. These are usually true, though in some cases, the bs really isn’t the prize, the ws should have divorced them instead of cheating on them but I digress.

But there is a distinctive difference in internalizing logical truth and processing trauma and they aren’t mutually exclusive.

Ironically I think that’s the exact same thing morbs is bumping up against.
It isn’t that we aren’t reading it right or listening, we aren’t agreeing with some portion of it.

I hope you understand I am trying to translate for you why you keep getting shot down in an understandable way, rather than trying to become part of the conflict or taking any sort of sides in the matter.

I think many of us often feel you aren’t listening or comprehending, but I believe you try to. Sometimes you do twist things into a debate and I do think that’s why our communication broke down the other day. You became more interested in proving a point than really trying to understand, because I personally do not think you could have been so obtuse not to get what I was telling you about my experience. But I also get that you were feeling piled up in and I can’t dismiss that as a factor anymore than we can dismiss common psychological reactions to trauma as something that can be logically reversed.

I hope you can find this helpful, it’s meant to be. But it boils down to what you are saying and what we are hearing aren’t going to match up.

** Member to Member **

DRS again argues from inexperience with R (and fear, IMO) to describe his nightmare version of R, and he calls it 'objective'. He does not seem to understand that if R is not working, a BS can D

It is not logical or objective to pick out specific cases and claim they are universal, especially in the face of conflicting testimony.

DRS judges external behavior when it's the internal motivation that distinguishes the successful from the unsuccessful healer. IOW, one can R from strength or weakness, just as one can D from strength or weakness.

*****

If you're a BS in or considering R, my reco is to check posters' experience with R and to place weight on the words of those who have 1st hand experience.

The best course for new BSes is to recognize that preconceptions should always be questioned, because the experience of being betrayed is very difficult to imagine. Those who rely on decisions they made as children need to consider that those decisions simply may not be best for adults.

I agree with DRS that fear is an enemy after d-day. I'm surprised that DRS has not considered that fear is a major driver in his attitudes towards R.

Read the posts of those who R'ed successfully, experienced false R (i.e. the WSes failed again or rebuilt too slowly), and those who worked on R for a while - even years - and decided it wasn't for them.

*****

The idea that the BS has all the power is flat out wrong.

Both partners have power over themselves and over the relationship. All the BS can do is establish and maintain boundaries. The WS chooses to honor those boundaries or not. The WS has the same power the BS does to establish boundaries, and the BS chooses to honor them or not. If the boundaries and desires fit well enough, R is possible. If they don't, D would seem to be the best choice.

*****

The study that concluded a cheater is 3 times more likely to cheat again than than someone who hasn't cheated is based on 19 people or couples, IIRC. If my memory is correct, that number is statistical malpractice, and it's a significant logical error to place any credence at all on that number.

*****

DRS may be afraid to date someone who cheated.

I'm with foreverlabeled - I believe a former cheater who has changed from cheater to good partner is a better bet for fidelity than any random person one might meet. But we're guessing here - no one has statistics on this.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:45 PM, Thursday, September 3rd]

They bargain, they plead, and they elevate the person who burnt their world down into the arbiter of their self worth.

behaves as though the wayward partner holds all the value and all the power.

That is trauma physiology and nervous system dysregulation. Denial, anger, bargaining, and depression. These aren’t evidence that the WS holds the value. They’re evidence that the BS’s system has been blown apart. You’re calling it "elevating the WS." I’m saying it’s the body trying to stop the freefall. That distinction matters because it determines what actually helps.

uncompromising reframing of reality to break the trance. 

Agreed. But in the real world, a deliberate, sharp jolt to the system does more harm than good. A "wake‑up call" only works on someone whose cognitive brakes are still functioning. A BS in acute betrayal trauma (4 months out.. 6 months out... nearing 12 months out) does not have access to those brakes. You cannot bark someone out of a trauma response. If a soldier came home shaking, disoriented, and dissociated, no one would stand over them shouting "snap out of it." You stabilize them first. The complex trauma of infidelity mirrors this. The nervous system has to be brought back online before any reframing can land. And I don't think that is a timeline you are patient enough to meet them at. Mostly because I don't think you experienced that drop I mentioned earlier.

firm anchor of dignity to hold onto while their nervous system catches up.

A firm anchor is essential but it has to be something the BS can actually reach. Again what you propose 4 months out from Dday is like feeding them a different flavor of shit sandwich while actively choking on the first one.

Showing them the absurdity of begging the thief who robbed them just might.

We have to name the wound before we name the absurdity. That’s the point I was making about the pick‑me dance. They aren't begging for the WS they are begging for what they lost. I think we do it a grave disservice to call it the pick-me dance. It’s catchy, but it’s clinically inaccurate and emotionally shaming. It frames the BS as performing for approval rather than reacting to catastrophic attachment collapse. Survival-reach or the safety-seeking is more accurate.

None of this keeps a BS in a fog. It clears it by naming the injury instead of scolding the reaction. When someone’s world has been split open, they don’t need intensity, they need orientation. You don’t steady a person by demanding composure while the floor is still falling away beneath them. You steady them by acknowledging the collapse and giving them something solid to hold while they regain their footing. If we skip that step, we aren’t offering clarity to an already shattered moment.

Wow foreverlabeled, You are naming things I understand but can not articulate. I appreciate your posts.

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:44 PM, Thursday, September 3rd]

DRS again argues from inexperience with R (and fear, IMO) to describe his nightmare version of R, and he calls it 'objective'. He does not seem to understand that if R is not working, a BS can D

Nice bit of poetry! Except... I didn't do this at all, did I? My post was written in response to someone’s actual, lived experience. We can agree on one thing, though: it is a nightmare. A nightmare plenty of people are currently living through, even if you’re dismissing them just because you had such a golden run. And for the record, I never once claimed that someone attempting R is legally barred from choosing D.

It is not logical or objective to pick out specific cases and claim they are universal, especially in the face of conflicting testimony

So... exactly what you’re doing right now? I posted about a specific case, conflicting testimony showed up, and you arbitrarily chose to back the ones that make you feel warm and fuzzy. Could that be because those testimonies align neatly with your confirmation bias while mine makes you uncomfortable? Truly, a masterclass in objectivity.

I agree with DRS that fear is an enemy after d-day. I'm surprised that DRS has not considered that fear is a major driver in his attitudes towards R

An interesting psychological analysis! But have you considered the fear my posts seem to trigger in you? The level of defensiveness here reads like someone terrified I might actually have a point. Scared you made the wrong call? Scared of confronting the lost years? Definitely worth considering. I've told you previously, every time you projective a motive on me, I will mirror it back.

Read the posts of those who R'ed successfully, experienced false R (i.e. the WSes failed again or rebuilt too slowly), and those who worked on R for a while - even years - and decided it wasn't for them.

I’m actually totally on board with reading widely. Just maybe not exclusively in a single forum where survivorship bias is doing all the heavy lifting. Broader spaces like Reddit might be more useful for getting a candid mix of experiences from people who aren't just trying to validate their own choices.

The idea that the BS has all the power is flat out wrong.

Both partners have power over themselves and over the relationship. All the BS can do is establish and maintain boundaries. The WS chooses to honor those boundaries or not. The WS has the same power the BS does to establish boundaries, and the BS chooses to honor them or not. If the boundaries and desires fit well enough, R is possible. If they don't, D would seem to be the best choicev

Sounds super empowering on paper. "I set a boundary that you shouldn't cheat!" (Spoiler: it was in the wedding vows, and they cheated anyway.) "Okay, new boundary: don't cheat again!" Notice how boundaries aren't magical force fields?

When I talk about "power," I’m not talking about abstract autonomy—I’m talking about leverage.

Think of it like a landlord negotiating with a tenant who just set fire to the kitchen. The landlord setting a "boundary" that says "please don't burn down the living room next" isn't an exercise of power—that's just desperate damage control.

That is the asymmetry of leverage in R. What does the BS stand to win if it works? The privilege of fighting tooth and nail to stay with someone who betrayed them. Yippee. What does the WS win? A loyal, devoted partner who stuck by them even after getting stabbed in the back. That is the power dynamic I’m referring to, and it's clearly in the hands of the BS to realize just how much power is in their hands. They are in the stronger negotiation position.

I'm with foreverlabeled - I believe a former cheater who has changed from cheater to good partner is a better bet for fidelity than any random person one might meet. But we're guessing here - no one has statistics on this

Haha, right. That's like saying if I knew someone wouldn't cheat I'd pick that one. But how exactly is one supposed to verify that transformation? Pure vibes? Trusting the word of a proven liar because they cross-their-heart-hope-to-die this time? If you’re buying that, step right up—I’ve got a fantastic deal on a bridge in Brooklyn you'll love. The single best predictor of someone's future behavior is their past behavior, not their post-infidelity pinky promise.

The study that concluded a cheater is 3 times more likely to cheat again than than someone who hasn't cheated is based on 19 people or couples, IIRC. If my memory is correct, that number is statistical malpractice, and it's a significant logical error to place any credence at all on that number

Forgot to add, 484 participants

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 6:56 PM, Thursday, September 3rd]

I’m actually totally on board with reading widely. Just maybe not exclusively in a single forum where survivorship bias is doing all the heavy lifting. Broader spaces like Reddit might be more useful for getting a candid mix of experiences from people who aren't just trying to validate their own choices.

Haha, right. That's like saying if I knew someone wouldn't cheat I'd pick that one. But how exactly is one supposed to verify that transformation? Pure vibes? Trusting the word of a proven liar because they cross-their-heart-hope-to-die this time? If you’re buying that, step right up—I’ve got a fantastic deal on a bridge in Brooklyn you'll love. The single best predictor of someone's future behavior is their past behavior, not their post-infidelity pinky promise.

We agree then, this community is not the best place for you. You aren’t here to learn you are here to judge, and think we are idiots. Go out to Reddit and other sites that support your worldview. We are here to recover, and help others recover. Your purposes of being here do not fit that model. You have written some insulting material in a community of vulnerable people, I am not sure you are as principled as you like to believe. I can’t even try to be diplomatic with you after these spirals, you want to win, but attempting to make this a game makes you a loser.

I hope you will leave, at this point how can anyone feel safe with your "support". You haven’t evolved at all since being here you have made that very clear.

We are here to recover, and help others recover. Your purposes of being here do not fit that model.

What a tonal shift. The entire purpose of this thread was to find a unified post that would be helpful to BS

When have I called anyone an idiot or tried to make anything a game.

Where have I demonstrated a lack of principles.

I don't think I've insulted any vulnerable members merely responded to them in the tone they've addressed me.

I do not understand your response at all here. Because I made reference to another forum? Because I defended a position that I think is very reasonable.

I urge anyone to read the first post and tell me my intentions were not positive. I genuinely thought this would be a relatively mild post that would garner general consensus.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 10:01 PM, Thursday, September 3rd]

The single best predictor of someone's future behavior is their past behavior, not their post-infidelity pinky promise.

Quoting an introductory psychology maxim without its core caveat isn’t the intellectual flex you think it is. In behavioral psychology, past behavior predicts future behavior under stable, unchanged conditions. That’s the part you left out. You can’t possibly know if someone is operating under the same conditions, the same pressures, the same internal landscape, or the same relational dynamics they were before. That’s why you observe current behavior, because it’s the only data point that exists in real time. Former cheater/Non cheater, even that doesn’t guarantee future outcomes, because conditions change and people change. Past behavior is a reference point, not a prophecy.

If past behaviour dictates future behaviour, what explains why a faithful spouse of 40 years suddenly cheats on their partner? I've always wondered that.

@foreverlabeled

I didn't suggest it was a flex and I didn't suggest it was a prophecy.

You can’t possibly know if someone is operating under the same conditions, the same pressures, the same internal landscape, or the same relational dynamics they were before.

Agreed, you can't.

That’s why you observe current behavior, because it’s the only data point that exists in real time

How is one precisely able to do that within the parameters of the discussion point, which was:

if you were single today and met someone on a first date who casually disclosed right off the bat that they had systematically cheated on their previous partner, would you ever consider seeing them again?

Are they supposed to determine it over how the spoke to the waiter? What wine they got? Would the more rational position not be get out at this point?

@Evio

It doesn't, it's just a rule of thumb.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 7:36 PM, Thursday, September 3rd]

@sisoon

I agree with DRS that fear is an enemy after d-day. I'm surprised that DRS has not considered that fear is a major driver in his attitudes towards R.

There are certainly people who decide that when it comes to R with the WS however, the juice just aint worth the squeeze. And they have a hard time understanding how it ever could be worth it. They view R as deep down the BP settling for something that is, well, far less than they deserve.

I absolutely get the sensation of the BP just wanting their life back and even, as awful as it sounds on some level, wanting back what was 'theirs'. That sensation of just wanting the other person back more than anything else. I just have such such a hard time though, imagining how someone could be in love with their partner and want to physically be with someone else. I mean I suppose in instances where there were all these built-up resentments over the course of the marriage or where the BP was difficult sure. But really, I cannot wrap my head around that concept of someone in love with their partner and still cheating, and frankly I don't think I even WANT to.

It is so much easier for me to imagine instances where the WS had 'settled' for their BS as in they married someone they were not in love with--the WS married for security not feelings. And then after DDay, the WS wants back in because they need the security back. Also, I am aware of how in too many instances it is the BH who is pressured to 'get with the program' and R with his WW.

This all certainly colours the takes I give in my posts.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 8:14 PM, Thursday, September 3rd]

Won’t be fooled—-

I understand your post and I agree with you on its premise where you say you can’t picture being in love with someone and cheating on them. (I know, I was surprised too)

I think that there are affairs that happen in good marriages. But during the course of marriages that last decades it’s unrealistic the two people in them are always connected and always in love. There is an ebb and flow that if you don’t keep your hands on the wheel it can go off course. You can get caught up in your own bullshit.

I never once thought my husband was a lesser man than the man I cheated with. I simply believed that our relationship was over instead of seeing we were in a ditch. And I was too complacent to make a change. I believe I had an affair to blow up my marriage in a passive aggressive way. It wasn’t that clean of a truth that I realized it at the time, I see that part in hindsight.

But I agree if we had been in love and connected at a the time I was also having a personal crisis, that it would not have happened. There was a vulnerability that hadn’t been there before and hasn’t been there since.

What I lacked was the ability to commit when things were hard. Not that we hadn’t had a lot of times that were hard with two decades of marriage prior, but we also were never so disconnected while experiencing multiple life events at once.

It’s not an excuse but to bring me to my point—-love and connection can change. It doesn’t mean anyone settled at the beginning, but people evolve and change and sometimes they should get a divorce. I didn’t want to give up my certainty and security, split up my family, but I didn’t constructively reach for him. I told him a few times how I was feeling but we were both so busy and had so many changes happening it was hard for us to focus on it.

I will never advocate for the choice to cheat. My point in responding to you is I am not alone in the fact I had a happy and satisfying marriage for a very long sustained time. And when reconciliation seemed to be a possibility, I still wasn’t sure we would fall in love again. It sure didn’t happen immediately for either of us. It took me proving I was worth the chance, him getting lost because now he is in crisis and we are not feeling loved and connected, and so he chose the same route.

Both of us today understand fully the is not an advisable route, we have both suffered greatly from my choices and his choices. But I do love him very much today and I feel he loves me more than I have ever felt it.

I know you think this is rare, but there are many couples like us, and women especially tend to cheat to end relationships. They do not make up as large of a percentage of cake eaters as their male counterparts but they do it. And I do think some women see a wallet or settle.

But cheating doesn’t mean there was no love prior, and it makes the chances much lower there will be live again. It’s just not nil.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:26 PM, Thursday, September 3rd]

Are they supposed to determine it over how the spoke to the waiter? What wine they got? Would the more rational position not be get out at this point?

No.

Maybe the conversation wouldn't end there, maybe the person they are sitting across from would be curious and open minded enough to hear a follow-up.

Mayne the conversation might look like this..

So why did your last relationship end?

​I would like to be honest here and say it's because I cheated.

​(Current behavior, honesty) ✔️

​But I have learned from it, I did some really deep healing to understand why I made that extremely painful decision to hurt someone so deeply.

​(Current behavior, able to take accountability) ✔️

​I spent a long time in therapy unpacking my own insecurities and passive habits, taking complete responsibility for choosing betrayal over direct communication.

​(Current behavior, self-awareness & consciousness) ✔️

​I deeply respect the lasting pain my actions caused, and I honor how sensitive this topic is without expecting anyone to justify or excuse what I did.

​(Current behavior, empathy & respect) ✔️

​That process forced me to rebuild my foundation around total transparency, radical truthfulness, and emotional responsibility.

​(Current behavior, core values & integrity) ✔️

​Today, I prioritize immediate, open communication, even when it's uncomfortable, so trust is actively protected rather than taken for granted.

​(Current behavior, proactive understanding & healthy boundaries) ✔️

^^^^ That’s exactly the kind of person I would respect. And to be clear, we’re talking about a former cheater who has done their work and can own their history without flinching. Your unremorseful cheater would never have this conversation, they don’t have the internal structure for it. But someone who has actually rebuilt themselves will show it in real time.

And I’m not saying you leap into anything with them. What I’ve learned is that paying attention before any intimacy, before any attachment starts shaping your judgment, is where the clarity lives. When you’re simply observing, no chemistry, no emotional momentum, no investment, you can actually see who someone is now. Their honesty, their accountability, their empathy, their values. All of that eventually shows up in one way or another.

But you’re immediately dismissing them based on their past, and that’s fine. Everyone has preferences, and you’re absolutely entitled to yours. I’m not trying to change your mind. I’m explaining why some people might give a former cheater a chance, not because of their history, but because of their current behavior and who they’ve become since.

I haven't but reading over that chain now. Really beautiful initial response. Shame she doesn't appear to be around. Would love to have knew her story.

Yeah, I miss her a lot. She made us better.

In all honest, how do you think our interactions would have went when you were in the eye of the storm? Do you think my temperament would have been of zero benefit to you personally?

I got value from almost everyone who invested time. But you most closely resemble the message (if not style) of WBFA to my ear. And while I have said multiple times publicly that I appreciate him and his passion for my personal well being, there is no hiding that he pissed me off often, mostly when I perceived pushing on timeframe. That wasn’t just him, anyone whose message was that I needed to hurry up and decide, I got very defensive of my process. It was my life, I was going to live with the consequences, I’ll make my decision when I want to, thank you very much. I think if you just kept beating this drum, I would have tuned you out.

Yes, I agree. It is just merely a preference. I wrote this as such, as I believe the majority of people would indeed run for the hills in this hypothetical and therefore what I wrote would be a relatable perspective to a BS. Perhaps I'm wrong on that. My lived experience leads me away from that conclusion l but I'm open to it being the case. I do only have a limited sample size to ask that question to in my life.

Perhaps the majority of people are more understanding. Perhaps they're more risk adverse. The fundamental risk in relying on articulate self-awareness as proof of transformation is that high-level emotional vocabulary can be mastered far more easily than high-level moral character.

Really, physiologically speaking, you'd need consistency of actions to prove a liar has reformed, I just don't see the benefit in investing the time required to determine that in these parameters. None of that is to say your wrong or that someone can't reform of course.

@InkHulk

Thank you for the feedback, your case is the perfect example of where I would be trying to help. Whilst I don't think I would have pushed for a timeline. i probably would have heavily outlined the pitfalls of inactivity. Don't know how you get around that. Obviously I don't want to be tuned out, just a waste of everyone's time that way.

Suppose that's the beauty of having multitude of perspectives, you can only relate to some people. Bound to annoy others.

Whilst I don't think I would have pushed for a timeline. i probably would have heavily outlined the pitfalls of inactivity. Don't know how you get around that. Obviously I don't want to be tuned out, just a waste of everyone's time that way.

I didn’t need that knowledge anymore. I had it. I read a hundred stories, I knew the hazards. But none of that gave me the map to my personal story.

I can only remember one poster that I really told off with the hope that he would stay away. He decided I was too indecisive, kept posting shit like "wash, rinse, repeat". What complete assholery. Warn an adult once, that is kindness. Badger them when they make a choice you disagree with, that is something entirely different.

You’re right that consistency of action is the real proof. That’s the entire point. Some people are willing to invest the time required to evaluate that consistency, and some aren’t. Both positions are valid. I’m not arguing that anyone should give a former cheater a chance, only that some people choose to evaluate current behavior rather than dismissing someone solely on their past.

My preference is someone who is open-minded. So if someone is immediately closed off and judgmental about my past, that tells me they’ll likely be closed off and judgmental in many other areas of life. The same applies to someone who lacks self awareness, someone who lacks empathy, or someone who lacks communication skills. No thanks. Big pass.

And yes, emotional vocabulary can be learned faster than moral character. I agree with that. But that’s why I emphasized observation, not blind acceptance. You don’t rely on words alone. You watch how someone shows up over time. And that checklist I laid out would be enough for me to take the risk. I’ve been with men who cannot accept accountability, who are dismissive, who get defensive at the slightest discomfort. Hearing someone speak honestly and openly would be a breath of fresh air, even if the topic is a painful part of their past. That’s the part missing from the "past predicts future behavior" argument, being on the other side of that conversation (which isn’t hypothetical, it’s one I’ve had when asked that exact question) shows the person has not remained unchanged.

My lived experience leads me in a different direction, but I’m open to the possibility that I’m in the minority. I don’t claim universal insight; I claim perspective.

That wasn’t just him — anyone whose message was that I needed to hurry up and decide, I got very defensive of my process. It was my life, I was going to live with the consequences, I’ll make my decision when I want to, thank you very much. I think if you just kept beating this drum, I would have tuned you out.

Thank you for the feedback. Your case is the perfect example of where I would be trying to help. Whilst I don't think I would have pushed for a timeline, I probably would have heavily outlined the pitfalls of inactivity. Don’t know how you get around that. Obviously I don't want to be tuned out — just a waste of everyone’s time that way.

On another note, our last exchange. I didn’t abandon it because "you got" me. I had plenty to say, but ultimately decided it wasn’t worth my time. Part of that draft mentioned this very thing. If your advice was so damn helpful, then where are all the BS who say they appreciate it? Are they in the room with us? The only person backing you is WBFA and… well… I digress. I only ever see BS saying how unhelpful, hurtful, or harmful your message was. And maybe that’s part of why Hiking suggested you stick to Reddit. I’m sure your advice would do well if no soliciting had a subreddit there. She probably does, you should check it out.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 11:31 PM, Thursday, September 3rd]