SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

This is well trodden ground but I keep finding myself typing out variations of this exact advice across different threads, so I am consolidating it here. To be clear: this post is aimed specifically at newly betrayed partners who are desperately trying to win back a cheating spouse. When you treat a betrayer like a prize to be won, you invert reality. This is a framework to help you reclaim your self esteem, step out of panic mode, and see who actually holds the power here. Feel free to add your thoughts—I cannot imagine this is the sort of post that will cause a substantial amount of debate

When infidelity is first uncovered, the immediate emotional fallout can often vapourise a betrayed spouse's self worth. You wake up to find the bedrock of your life blown apart, and the immediate, raw instinct for many is pure panic. Because your self esteem takes a direct torpedo hit below the waterline, leaving you feeling entirely inadequate and replaceable, a completely counterintuitive knee jerk reaction can kick in: you start trying to win them back. You enter the frantic pick me dance, desperately bargaining and bending over backwards to convince the person who betrayed you that you are worth keeping. This is why I would encourage all newly betrayed partners to be highly skeptical of their partner in the immediate aftermath of discovery. This is when you are most vulnerable. This is when you are most easily manipulated. This is when you need to look cold hard at the statistics and take them seriously.

It is the psychological equivalent of having your house burgled and responding by offering the thief a cup of tea, a foot massage, and a loyalty rewards card in the desperate hope they will not rob you again next Tuesday. We need to call this what it is: a complete inversion of reality. Your wayward partner is not a prize. They are not a grand trophy you lost, nor are they a catch you need to compete for. A person who responds to relationship friction or personal insecurity by lying, sneaking around, and burning down their partner's trust is not a high value asset; they are a cracked engine block painted over with shiny wax. You are the prize. You are the one who kept your integrity, stood by your commitment, and acted like an adult.

In fact, far from being a prize, a wayward partner should realise they are extraordinarily lucky you have not immediately served them divorce papers, declared them a lifelong mortal enemy, or placed a medieval curse upon their entire lineage. The absolute minimum expectation in this scenario is that they should be crawling over broken glass to make a compelling case for why you should ever grant them an audience again. Even then, it should not necessarily be enough. This is the bare minimum. Yet, to be entirely honest, they almost never make a good case for it. Outside of practicalities (and shared experiences, if that is important to you), I have never heard a particularly compelling case made by a wayward spouse as to why you should entertain reconciliation—and that is with them doing all the work, all the grovelling, and all the self flagellation. Think about it: if you were single today and met someone on a first date who casually disclosed right off the bat that they had systematically cheated on their previous partner, would you ever consider seeing them again? I venture most people would run for the hills before the starters even arrived. It makes zero sense to grant a pass to the person who actually committed the betrayal just because you happened to share a mortgage or a past with them.

You have all the power, not them. They stand to keep a loving and loyal partner to support them. You stand to gain an iteration of your marriage you likely would not have accepted at any other point in your life.

Now, let us address the phantom that haunts almost every betrayed partner’s middle of the night panic: what if they move on and live a glorious, happy fairytale life with someone better? If you are worried about that, you should really think again. In the real world adult dating pool, being a known cheater is perhaps the absolute biggest red flag imaginable. Nobody with a shred of emotional maturity, healthy self respect, or a functioning radar is touching a proven betrayer with a ten foot pole. Buying into a relationship with a known cheater is like buying a stolen car—you know it is dirty, and it is only a matter of time before it breaks down on you anyway. I certainly do not know anyone at my age who would take a chance on someone whose serious relationship ended due to their own infidelity. Ok, maybe if they were 20 or in college and they made a dumb choice, some people can look past that. But in their 30ies 40ies or 50ies? Married with a family? Nope. It's the ultimate warning sign.

So what does a wayward's actual post affair dating landscape look like? It usually boils down to a few miserable paths. They might get casual, shallow hookups with people who care as little about them as they cared about you—certainly not fulfilling. Or perhaps they find desperate people who have drained the dating pool so much already that they feel they need to settle for a self sabotaging liar just to avoid being alone. Does that sound like they have traded up? Otherwise, they are left having to lie for the rest of their life to every potential partner. Imagine having to lie about your history to everyone you date, knowing that if they knew the truth about you, they would drop you immediately. Imagine every single first date being an exercise in high stakes perjury, living in constant fear that an old acquaintance might bump into them at a bar and spill the truth. That is not a thriving dating life; it is witness protection for moral cowards. Going down that path will never allow them to feel true love. Yes, they can con another person into believing they are someone they are not, but they will always be aware deep down that the new partner does not love them—they just love the mask they wear.

Even if they do con the next sap, look at the recidivism rate in cheaters. A cheater is roughly three times more likely to cheat again compared to someone who has never been unfaithful (psychologytoday) - Let them have them!

You need to be willing to walk away no matter what you ultimately decide to do. If you don't even entertain the idea of divorce, all you are internally impliedly accepting is that you do not have standards. Not having standards will wreck you self-respect in time. If things go side ways and you do walk away, you are not losing out on some magnificent future by refusing to rebuild what they burned to the ground. Walking away and choosing a fresh start is not a defeat, but rather an eviction notice for a tenant who trashed the property. Once the initial shock wears off and you step back into the open air of your own worth, you realise that leaving is not the end of your story, but the quiet, triumphant beginning of getting your life back. So let them beg. Let them grovel whilst you make your informed decision. It's the bare minimum they can do. It's the bare minimum you should accept.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 2:05 PM, Thursday, September 3rd]

Good points but not everyone can just walk away.

People reconcile or choose to try to reconcile the marriage often due to financial or health issues. While they would love to choose D or S, unfortunately that is not an option.

You can tell yourself "I’m the prize" and "I deserve better" but when your world has imploded and your self-esteem is at rock bottom, it is going to be almost impossible to believe that.

Which is why the "pick me" dance is often the first thing a betrayed does.

If you cannot walk away, I suppose your choices are limited. In such cases, I am not sure anyone can help. All you are doing at that point is trying to minimise abuse—hoping the person you are trapped with will treat you well, despite having no real power to influence that. This post probably will not offer much comfort to those who truly have no choice.

Whilst there is undoubtedly a percentage of people in that position, they are far from the majority. Most people can leave if they need to. If you have that option, you should absolutely leverage it.

For anyone who genuinely has nowhere else to go and no money to sustain themselves, the path looks different. The goal there is to focus on building yourself up so that you eventually reach a position where leaving becomes possible. Gaining back the leverage. I feel deeply for those who are trapped. I can't imagine a worse fate than being trapped.

As for a betrayed partner's self esteem being at rock bottom, I completely agree. That was the entire point of the post: it shouldn't be.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 9:32 AM, Thursday, September 3rd]

DRS I think you’re missing something here. The majority of BS actually do leverage the option to leave. I can’t count how many times I’ve seen people here immediately consult a lawyer, draw up papers, and have them ready to serve. One of the first things recommended to a newly arrived BS is to look into that option. A lot of BS ask their WS to leave the home. Even in my own situation, that was one of the first steps. The minority is the BS who does nothing. Most people take action. Most people create leverage. Most people prepare for D even if they hope they won’t have to use it.

The ones who truly cannot leave are a different category entirely. Financial dependence, health issues, disability, immigration status, no family support, no safe place to go. Those situations exist, and they are heartbreaking. But they are not the majority. And they are not the baseline experience we should be using to frame betrayal trauma. When someone is genuinely trapped, the path is different. Their goal becomes building themselves up until leaving becomes possible. That is a long road, and I feel deeply for anyone who has to walk it.

But for most BS, the reason they don’t immediately walk away is not because they lack options. It is because their entire safety system has collapsed. When a spouse cheats, the betrayed partner’s nervous system doesn’t say, "Oh no, my standards." It says, "I am not safe in my own life." That is the disorienting panic. That is the nausea, the shaking, the hypervigilance, the inability to sleep, the intrusive thoughts. That is why people lose weight, lose hair, lose months of memory. The BS nervous system does not care about "I’m the prize." It cares that the person who was supposed to protect them suddenly became the source of danger.

Safety is the thing that gets ripped out by the roots. Safety is the thing that makes people freeze, cling, dissociate, or try to restore the connection. Safety is the thing that makes people stay even when they "should" leave. You can rebuild self esteem alone. You cannot rebuild safety alone. Safety requires the person who broke it to participate. That is why the "pick me" dance happens. It is not weakness. It is not a lack of standards. It is the body trying to restore safety through the only familiar source it has left.

And yes, self esteem absolutely gets hit. It gets hit hard. BS question their worth, their desirability, their value as a partner, their identity, their attractiveness, their entire sense of being chosen. That wound is real. It is painful. It can take years to rebuild. But it is not the thing that flips the nervous system into crisis. It is not the thing that makes someone feel like their world has imploded. It is not the thing that makes someone unable to breathe. The crisis comes from losing safety.

I can see why with your experience you might conflate the two. Self esteem is the most visible injury. It is the one people can articulate. It is the one that looks like the problem from the outside. Understandably it is a factor, but not in the way you think it is.

So no. The driving force is not ego. It is not pride. It is not "letting them beg." It is the collapse of the one thing every BS needs to function. Safety. Until someone has lived through that physiological drop, they really do not understand it.

I think you are missing the entire scope and intention of my post.

As I stated in the very first sentence of the thread, I wrote this specifically because I find myself repeatedly typing out variations of this exact advice to betrayed spouses who are actively stuck in the "pick me" dance, viewing their wayward partner as a trophy to win back, and failing to recognize their own leverage. If, as you claim, the majority of BS already consult lawyers (which I have no way of confirming or denying), set firm boundaries, and leverage their option to walk away, then wonderful—this post simply isn't directed at them. But the fact I've had to write variants of this several times indicates it's often not the case. The fact that many people handle discovery differently does not render the advice irrelevant for the substantial subset of people who don't.

Debating whether the initial panic is clinically driven by nervous system dysregulation and a loss of safety, versus a blow to self-esteem and standards, is beside the point. Whatever the underlying neurological trigger may be, the practical outcome on the ground is identical: the betrayed spouse acts against their own long-term interests, elevates the person who betrayed them, and bargains away their dignity in a frantic attempt to stabilize the situation.

My post was never intended to be an exhaustive academic dissertation on trauma psychology or polyvagal theory. It was written as a direct, pragmatic reality check for the specific group of people who are currently in the thick of that panic and need a mental shift to pull themselves out of it. It serves to remind them that their wayward partner is not a prize, that they hold the ultimate leverage, and that abandoning their standards out of fear will destroy their self-respect in time.

If someone is already leveraging their options and standing firm, they don't need this post. But for those who are bending over backward to appease a cheating spouse, the core message stands.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 1:40 PM, Thursday, September 3rd]

I agree with ForeverLabeled, and I don’t really understand, Doc, why you continually push back against the timing element of this topic. When you do, it’s like you are standing at the helm of the Titanic saying "you know, it’s really not in our interest to hit that iceberg".

We know. You are restating the conviction that pretty much 100% of people have before they learn they have been cheated on, that it is a deal breaker and we would never tolerate it. And then reality steps in. And a ton of people do end up getting out of the relationship, on a timeframe that works for them.

If all you are saying with statements like this is "cheating is bad", you’ve spilled a lot of ink to do so. I think this community is about navigating the crisis that comes after the collision, and the platitudes are no longer helpful.

What is going on, hahaha, don't want to go all morbs here but reading comprehension feels at an all time low today

@inkhulk

Where in this post did I discuss any of that? I feel like you are dragging in historic conversations into this one where they really aren't relevant.

This post has one sole purpose: to create a single, consolidated response for victims of betrayal who are bending over backwards to win back a cheating spouse as if they were a prize. It aims to highlight the flaws in that approach, help rebuild self esteem, and clarify who actually holds the power in this situation.

For context, I am currently in a discussion with a user on another forum who is in this exact situation:

Shortly after a personal event, he discovered his long term partner of two decades was being unfaithful. Four months on, he remains deeply traumatised, experiencing intense emotional turbulence and struggling to parse what is real.

While his partner claims the affair has ended, she refuses to disclose key details about the other person involved. This has driven him to obsessively search for answers, lose sleep, unable to eat... not even to mention begin to heal... yet he is too terrified to demand the truth for fear of losing her. This is not a unique situation; I have seen it time and time again. I've written similar response to this time and time again.

He is acting as though she is the prize and is terrified of kicking the hornet nest. All of this is compounded by the fact that he already feels underappreciated, having taken on the vast majority of household, financial, and parenting responsibilities while she pursued her own interests.

I'm merely putting together a response to this style of thinking. I'm open to taking notes but that is the goal.

Thanks though. I will embolden and make it incredibly clear in the intro so people know what the goal of this thread is, apologies I thought it was clear enough but clearly not.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 2:06 PM, Thursday, September 3rd]

I think in essence you can’t understand what you haven’t experienced. You can’t relate to reconciliation so when you write about it, it reads like fiction.

I bristled at the title. Begging has nothing to do with it from either direction. I do not ever remember begging anyone to do anything. Despite my wayward status, I felt he had every right to divorce, I mostly expected it when I planned my confession. Did part of me hope bringing it to him and telling the truth may have some impact? Yes, but there was no expectation. In fact, my thoughts and feelings were a lot like feeling low that we eatch d in real time in the forum as he planned to confess and we have continued to watch his journey. His experience was more closely like what I experienced with the added complication this had all just happened, and I hadn’t processed the lies I had been telling myself yet.

And my husband didn’t play the pick me dance for even a minute. I was free to go from his standpoint. Seeing that’s not what I wanted, he provided some time for things to play out. When they weren’t playing out the way that was needed we filled out our divorce settlement.

Some bs do play the pick me, but usually it’s a temporary reaction, part of the shock and denial of grief. But the anger will show up, it’s a natural part of the process of grieving.

The absolute minimum expectation in this scenario is that they should be crawling over broken glass to make a compelling case for why you should ever grant them an audience again. Even then, it should not necessarily be enough. This is the bare minimum. Yet, to be entirely honest, they almost never make a good case for it. Outside of practicalities (and shared experiences, if that is important to you), I have never heard a particularly compelling case made by a wayward spouse as to why you should entertain reconciliation—and that is with them doing all the work, all the grovelling, and all the self flagellation.

The groveling and self flagellation are both unhelpful to both partners.

Assuming the bs is willing, reconciliation happens over a period is years if the ws displays consistency in both self growth and intentional repair. And the bs still wants it.

The reason you think these things is you have a very 2D outlook. It’s not your fault, but when you study it by going to anonymous forums, your interpretation is an intellectual exercise.

Reconciliation is not an intellectual exercise. It’s a matter settled between two hearts.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:14 PM, Thursday, September 3rd]

I think in essence you can’t understand what you haven’t experienced. You can’t relate to reconciliation so when you write about it, it reads like fiction.

It may read like fiction to you, but I can guarantee it reads like a biology textbook to those who didn't come out the other side as intact as you did. Which is kind of why objective external opinions can be useful. Otherwise we have a ton of people who had awful failed R arguing that R is the most toxic concept known to man (see the majority of reddit) and a bunch of people in successful R stating why it can all end up so great.

Also—at the risk of repeating myself—no, I haven't experienced it directly. But film critics haven't made movies, and astrophysicists haven't all been to space. Outside perspective still carries weight.

And my husband didn’t play the pick me dance for even a minute. I was free to go from his standpoint. Seeing that’s not what I wanted, he provided some time for things to play out. When they weren’t playing out the way that was needed we filled out our divorce settlement.

If that wasn't your lived experience, then by your own logic, why comment on those for whom it is?

Some bs do play the pick me, but usually it’s a temporary reaction, part of the shock and denial of grief. But the anger will show up, it’s a natural part of the process of grieving.

Even if it's a temporary reaction, shouldn't we actively discourage it? Shouldn't we provide frameworks that highlight the pitfalls, rebuild their self-esteem, and remind them of their agency?

Take the user I referenced earlier, who is terrified to demand what he needs to heal out of fear of losing his "prize." Do you really believe it isn't beneficial to hammer home the fact that she is the lucky one here, not the other way around?

The groveling and self flagellation are both unhelpful to both partners.

They would certainly be helpful to me.

Assuming the bs is willing, reconciliation happens over a period is years if the ws displays consistency in both self growth and intentional repair. And the bs still wants it.

Agreed, but that is ultimately adjacent to my point. The betrayed spouse needs to recognize where the power actually lies. They are the prize—not the person who broke the trust.

The reason you think these things is you have a very 2D outlook. It’s not your fault, but when you study it by going to anonymous forums, your interpretation is an intellectual exercise.

Being in the middle of trauma undoubtedly alters your perspective, but emotional proximity doesn't automatically make an outlook correct. An objective, external lens has genuine value precisely because it isn't clouded by the fog of the experience itself.

Wow, didn't think a basic post on creating a text with the goal of this post would lead to debate. I thought I was the argumentative one ahahah

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 2:36 PM, Thursday, September 3rd]

On the other hand though, you take your power, hand them their arse, lay out your boundaries and requirements and go to town lighting them up for a considerable amount of time and they don’t run for the hills, they grovel, they make the changes, they work endlessly on themselves, they sit, they reflect, they read, they go to therapy, they spend every single waking hour trying their best to show you that you are their priority.

It’s like having your brain minced!, you can’t for the life in you work out why they would want to walk through the fiery depths of hell with no end date in sight, instead of just not cheating in the first place.

Pick me or the other hand, either way it’s just complete and utter fuckery.

I understood you.

Debating whether the initial panic is clinically driven by nervous system dysregulation and a loss of safety, versus a blow to self-esteem and standards, is beside the point.

I believe it is the very point that makes all the difference in what you are trying to articulate. It is incredibly helpful to name the source, because that source explains why the BSs you are referring to cannot move, why they are manipulated, and why they cling so desperately. I'm not convinced it is because they view the WS as some prize. You cannot pull someone out of panic by ignoring the reason they are in it. That is trauma physiology doing exactly what trauma physiology does.

viewing their wayward partner as a trophy to win back

I still think it is a safety issue. BS are not looking at their WS as a prize. They are grasping at the role the WS used to occupy. They want to be chosen again, they want the life that was blown apart, and they want the sense of safety that vanished in an instant. It becomes "pick our life again, pick me because we built this thing, pick safety again," even though that safety is no longer attainable from the person who destroyed it. But try telling the traumatized brain that.

they should be crawling over broken glass to make a compelling case for why you should ever grant them an audience again.

They typically do though, (unless they use this as an exit). That groveling makes it even harder for a BS to leave. Do not convolute this with a WS suddenly being honest or worthy. THAT is almost never the case. But we do tend to beg.

Think about it: if you were single today

I was merely trying to point out why this is not the knee jerk reaction you are championing for. I love the empowering display and the bid for clarity, but it takes time to get here. A long time. It is not something we can shove down someone’s throat when they are already choking on a shit sandwich.

My post was never intended to be an exhaustive academic dissertation on trauma psychology or polyvagal theory.

But you have to take that into consideration. It is the forefront of all matters infidelity related. If you ignore the trauma physiology, you end up oversimplifying the behavior and mislabeling the cause. That is where the disconnect is.

people who are currently in the thick of that panic and need a mental shift to pull themselves out of it.

And that mental shift only works if you understand what they are actually fighting. You cannot coach someone out of a trauma response by telling them to adopt a mindset they do not have access to yet. Otherwise we are not helping them climb out of the panic, we are just telling them how they "should" feel while their nervous system is still underwater.

We would do better to coach our BSs based on the psychology of trauma, not on predictions about whether their WS will fail in future relationships or whether they "should" crawl and beg. The focus should be on what the BS is actually experiencing, not on the imagined future of the WS. When we center the WS’s potential downfall, we end up giving advice that has nothing to do with the BS’s immediate reality. The core issue is safety. If we do not name that, we cannot reach the people who are drowning in the panic and reacting to the collapse the WS created.

They are underwater. They need a hand, not a lecture about swimming technique. It is the difference shouting instructions from the deck and experiencing the ship crack in half beneath you and following it down into the dark. And if we don’t account for that reality, our advice will never reach the people who are still sinking.

@foreverlabeled

I appreciate this reply and agree with many elements of what you write.

You are looking at this through the lens of trauma physiology and nervous system dysregulation. You are explaining why the engine is misfiring, and from a clinical standpoint, and as far as I see it, you are entirely correct. The brain in acute betrayal trauma is grasping for safety, attempting to restore a lost reality, and reacting out of primal panic. I do not dispute that for a second.

However understanding that your nervous system is dysregulated is key for long term healing, but in the immediate aftermath, many betrayed partners do not just experience internal trauma—they actively engage in self degrading behaviour. They bargain, they plead, and they elevate the person who burnt their world down into the arbiter of their self worth.

I'm sure a good debate can be had here over whether it's always a search for safety. I'm not sure that is necessity the case but for the sake of argument all it a search for safety or call it a trauma response, but the operational result is identical: the betrayed partner behaves as though the wayward partner holds all the value and all the power.

My post is not intended to be a gentle therapeutic session or a lecture on swimming technique while someone is drowning. It is intended to be a deliberate, sharp jolt to the system. It is designed to interrupt the cognitive loop that makes a betrayed partner think, "I must convince this person to choose me."

When someone is in the grip of panic, sometimes naming the physiological cause is not enough to stop the action. Sometimes you need a stark, uncompromising reframing of reality to break the trance. Wake up calls do work for some people. Reminding a betrayed partner that their betrayer is a broken asset—not a prize to be won—is is about giving them a firm anchor of dignity to hold onto while their nervous system catches up.

You focus on explaining the panic; I focus on dismantling the illusion that fuels the bargaining. Both have their place, but telling someone they are reacting to trauma does not always stop them from begging. Showing them the absurdity of begging the thief who robbed them just might. That is my hope.

For in the end and I'm sure you'd agree - keeping people in the fog of betrayal only benefits the manipulative abusive waywards. (not that I'm saying that's everyone) I fear that is what's happening to the chap I'm talking with.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 3:00 PM, Thursday, September 3rd]

Even if it's a temporary reaction, shouldn't we actively discourage it? Shouldn't we provide frameworks that highlight the pitfalls, rebuild their self-esteem, and remind them of their agency?

We actively discourage it here when we see it happening. In many ways. We do tell them they are the prize to be won, I can’t tell you how many times I have typed that over the years. We spell out to them that the ws needs to be the one doing the work.

Assuming the bs is willing, reconciliation happens over a period is years if the ws displays consistency in both self growth and intentional repair. And the bs still wants it.

Agreed, but that is ultimately adjacent to my point. The betrayed spouse needs to recognize where the power actually lies. They are the prize—not the person who broke the trust.

It’s not adjacent.

The point I was making is that without that reconciliation fails. It’s the very reason we watch members divorce. Ink divorced for this reason.

I get the point of this post is more- it’s outrageous that a cheating spouse gets begged back-whether that’s through pleading or rugsweeping. But it’s really just part of the persons arc towards the processing and growth needed to decide an outcome clearly.

Foreverlabeled nailed it, they had the safety drop. So when we see a bs they are in the beginning stages of grief which are natural and you can’t talk them out of it intellectually. In this site you will watch the bs’s give them the advice you are saying.

The groveling and self flagellation are both unhelpful to both partners.
They would certainly be helpful to me.

And this is why I said sometimes what you write sounds like a fictitious version. I am not saying that fiction can’t sound real or people can’t write believable things they haven’t experienced. Or that you never say things right. I am saying that because you don’t relate to it, sometimes it comes out differently than the experience.

For one, I don’t believe be helpful to you. You would maybe love to walk away from someone who is devastated you are leaving them after cheating.

But if you were truly reconciling you would think—-words are cheap. And I am not saying that a ws shouldn’t express their desire.l but it doesn’t fix it. It may state an intention but proving that intention requires one to move away from the navel gazing and self flagellation.

Why? Because that deep shame is something that overpowers the bs’s ability to express themselves. If every time the affair is brought up, the ws falls into a puddle of shame, the conversation can’t progress. It actually takes someone who can put those feelings aside and look at their bs and truly take them in. Shame hinders that greatly because it causes defensiveness, self pity, creates pity in the bs sometimes, and that’s not someone you can build with.

In fact, you always like to point at wwtl’s story, but I think that shake was maybe one of the biggest turnoffs to reconciliation there could have been. Sure, maybe he still would have decided he couldn’t do it but he has said in the past that seeing her feel so badly about herself all the time only made him see the woman who had the affair.

Reconciliation requires someone new show up.
Someone who can carry both the accountability and the weight of doing the relational repairs, and proving something…not just saying something. Not just doing the easy things like love bombing, sex bombing, etc.

But you have to take that into consideration. It is the forefront of all matters infidelity related. If you ignore the trauma physiology, you end up oversimplifying the behavior and mislabeling the cause. That is where the disconnect is.

I should really just let forever labeled tell it. I cross posted but she really always boils it down so much better.

This exact quote should be in the healing library. I have spent significant time this week trying to explain this to a fellow wayward and really it all boils down to this.

DR—- you can’t talk them out of the stage for reasons forever laid out, no more than a ws begging will have influence over a long term period.

These are all just phases of crawling away from the bomb site. They may spend some time wishing they could go back in to the burning building to get the sentimental things or basic necessities that they are currently losing, but as they stay near the flames the way of dealing with it will change because it has to. It’s a path that include logic but can never preclude the processing of emotions. And that’s why what she wrote is so dead on right.

You have a big heart for the bs who are doing this, and logically you know it’s not the right position and you wish you could take it from them by finding the right words. It’s just not how it works.

But we do say those words here, we do point out when it’s happening and why it’s not helpful. All of us do that even those labeled as a pro-r crowd.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:21 PM, Thursday, September 3rd]

We actively discourage it here when we see it happening. In many ways. We do tell them they are the prize to be won, I can’t tell you how many times I have typed that over the years. We spell out to them that the ws needs to be the one doing the work.

Then we are in complete agreement on that fundamental point.

I get the point of this post is more- it’s outrageous that a cheating spouse gets begged back-whether that’s through pleading or rugsweeping. But it’s really just part of the persons arc towards the processing and growth needed to decide an outcome clearly.

That is precisely the point of the post.

I understand your inclination to view every aspect of this through a complex lens, and perhaps I do take a more straightforward, pragmatic view at times. However, some things really are simple, and overanalysing can be just as unhelpful as oversimplifying.

I write variations of this post repeatedly because some people do not merely pass through this phase as a temporary step in their arc—they get permanently stuck in it. The individual I am currently supporting on another forum has been paralyzed in this exact state for four months. Four months might seem like a drop in the ocean in the grand scheme of trauma recovery, but I have encountered betrayed partners who remain frozen in inactivity for years, terrified to ask for what they need to heal because they fear their partner might leave. This is not a natural stepping stone that everyone smoothly glides past. Many people need a direct, unapologetic reality check to snap them out of it. Will it always work? Nope. Nothing always does. Will it sometimes help... well if not I've wasted days maybe weeks of my life fighting a lost cause. On the off chance it does though, that's time I'm happy to invest. To quote the Mr. Smith Goes to Washington '...And I'm gonna stay right here and fight for this lost cause'

For one, I don’t believe be helpful to you. You would maybe love to walk away from someone who is devastated you are leaving them after cheating.

Fair enough. My earlier comment was flippant because your initial tone felt somewhat aggressive, so I reacted defensively. What you wrote here is likely true: permanent shame is not helpful and I should never have implied it was.

In fact, you always like to point at wwtl’s story, but I think that shake was maybe one of the biggest turnoffs to reconciliation there could have been. Sure, maybe he still would have decided he couldn’t do it but he has said in the past that seeing her feel so badly about herself all the time only made him see the woman who had the affair.

That is a topic for a separate debate, though I do acknowledge that dynamic can be counterproductive. If my reading is correct, I think it was only merely one of many reasons reconciliation wasn't going to work in that situations. But I relate to that case cause how he writes is the closest embodiment of how I feel, so I could be projecting.

However, that is a side track I never intended to take. This post is not about reconciliation mechanics, nor is it about insisting a wayward partner remain wallowing in permanent shame. I want to keep the focus firmly on the original purpose: breaking the illusion that the betrayer is the prize, restoring agency to the betrayed partner, and preventing people from remaining trapped in the pick me dance.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 3:36 PM, Thursday, September 3rd]

I write variations of this post repeatedly because some people do not merely pass through this phase as a temporary step in their arc—they get permanently stuck in it. The individual I am currently supporting on another forum has been paralyzed in this exact state for four months. Four months might seem like a drop in the ocean in the grand scheme of trauma recovery, but I have encountered betrayed partners who remain frozen in inactivity for years, terrified to ask for what they need to heal because they fear their partner might leave. This is not a natural stepping stone that everyone smoothly glides past. Many people need a direct, unapologetic reality check to snap them out of it. Will it always work? Nope. Nothing always does. Will it sometimes help... well if not I've wasted days of my life. On the off chance it does though, that's time I'm happy to invest.

Invest the time, I try all the time to convince people of the picture they themselves paint.

I agree some people stay stuck.

I would propose to you that they are likely stuck before the infidelity ever occurred. The reality is that some people live their lives in a state of fear, paralysis, and they do not see opportunities to grow. They believe the narrative loops of their thoughts. Our thoughts are often the biggest liars.

Anything that happens post infidelity for the first 3-6 months mostly comes from shock, and denial so you will see the bargaining. That’s normal. Most bs’s will transcend these phases but you are right others will remain in them much longer. Four months is a drop in the bucket, if he is still acting like this months from now, you are unlikely to reach him then either.

We see it here often, they held it all in to keep the relationship together and twenty years down the line they still wish it to be different.

I find that maybe switching to coping skills, talking about healing and how to do it usually is more beneficial than trying to talk them out of it.

The eagles has a great lyric "so often times we live our lives in chains and we never even know we have the key"

I am surprised you found my tone aggressive. I will consider that more, I didn’t feel aggressive. I may have felt like smacking my forehead a bit, because the begging to me should also just be a phase. But some people use that forever like it’s the only tactic as well. Maybe you feel like there was spill over from our exchange the other day. I don’t feel any sort of way about it.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:45 PM, Thursday, September 3rd]

I am surprised you found my tone aggressive. I will consider that more, I didn’t feel aggressive. I may have felt like smacking my forehead a bit, because the begging to me should also just be a phase. But some people use that forever like it’s the only tactic as well. Maybe you feel like there was spill over from our exchange the other day. I don’t feel any sort of way about it.

Maybe. I am not putting the onus on you in any way. Perhaps it was the other day, as I am still recovering from what felt to me like a pile on. It is what it is. I believe in my purpose here, even if I am sure many other users—though I like to hope you are not among them—hate my posts and think I'm toxic. Or who knows, maybe I am just being overly sensitive today. Either way, there is no ill will from my side. I have found our interactions beneficial in the vast majority of cases.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 3:54 PM, Thursday, September 3rd]

DRSOOLERS...I don't often agree with what you write on here...but I can see myself in THIS thread...thank you for sharing .

You enter the frantic pick me dance, desperately bargaining and bending over backwards to convince the person who betrayed you that you are worth keeping.

I did that STUPID pick-me-dance in my 1st M when I found out my H was cheating on me. I wasn't able to just walk away at that point. I had also had it in my mind from a young age that once I got married...it was forever...so I would do anything to stay married! When my H started working on US...I felt like I had WON. Except that I caught him with a different woman about 2 years later. I went to my parents' house that night and the next day my H took everything of his out of our house and moved in to his brother's house with the adultery co-conspirator.

I had NO CHOICE at that point to decide for myself whether to R or D. My circumstance was also worse than before because it wasn't just ME anymore...I had a baby to take care of as well. Back in the 80's...things were a LOT different regarding child support...alimony...etc. My H paid NOTHING to help me and our baby. I HAD to find a way...and Thank God I did . I had to stop paying for certain electives...such as health insurance...I had to let our house go and move into a rent controlled apartment...and I had to take a second job. It...was...HARD. But I can remember to this day the RELIEF I felt when I was FREE from a cheater .

I would LOVE to say that I was DONE at that point...but that wasn't the case. Even though my 1st H and I never lived together again...he would often talk about us getting back together...until he found a new "shiny". Then he would not have any contact with us until the "shine" wore off and he would come back with love bombs. It was a HORRENDOUS time for me with all of the ups and downs I was experiencing emotionally.

I learned a valuable lesson though...it takes TWO people being ALL IN for an M to be viable. When I started seriously dating the man who became my 2nd H...my 1st H decided I was THE ONE . He tried moving Heaven and Earth to win me back...but by that time it was too little too late.

So what does a wayward's actual post affair dating landscape look like?

For my 1st H...he was enjoying post A dating...while we were still married . After I married my 2nd H...my 1st H floundered around...much like you wrote. He got someone else pregnant...then left her to take care of his child by herself as well. He then remarried after a few years...and they are still married...maybe 25-30 years now? Not only does my 1st H not have a relationship with his children...HER children want nothing to do with her either. To ME...that is truly SAD. My children and grandchildren bring so much JOY to my life !! All I can say is it is their LOSS. I don't know if he cheated on his 2nd wife...and I truly don't care what is happening with him anymore.

what if they move on and live a glorious, happy fairytale life with someone better?

This wasn't my thought with either of my husbands...but there was a similar thought that made me rethink going straight for D with my 2nd H. We had been married almost 30 years on Dday...and I immediately told my H the M was over when he confessed to his A while working overseas. When I was alone in our bedroom...after telling him to message the adultery co-conspirator to decide what THEY were going to do because OUR M was DONE...I started thinking about what had just happened. I was very much NOT going to do the STUPID pick-me-dance again!! BUT...there's always a but ...when I started thinking about everything we had done...had sacrificed...to get to THIS point in our M...I did not want someone else just coming in and taking up where I left off!! I did some serious thinking about that...and decided that I could stay...but with certain ultimatums in place. I have come to realize people call them boundaries on here...but it amounts to basically the same idea .

You have all the power, not them.

ABSOLUTELY!!!

You need to be willing to walk away no matter what you ultimately decide to do.

Spot ON!!! There is a saying on here...you have to be willing to LOSE the M in order to SAVE it. It sounds counterintuitive...but if a Betrayeds boundaries cause a Wayward to walk away...they really weren't willing to be ALL IN in the M in the first place. My H said he would have cut off his right arm with a pocket knife if he could have gone back in time and NOT have his A. So doing the few ultimatums I had was easy peasy compared to THAT !

Once the initial shock wears off and you step back into the open air of your own worth, you realise that leaving is not the end of your story, but the quiet, triumphant beginning of getting your life back.

THIS was what kept D on the table for about 3 years after Dday. I KNEW what it felt like to go for D with a cheating spouse. My life IMPROVED after I left my cheating 1st H. It was so tempting at times to just walk away. I would get in the car and drive to a quiet place and think HARD about whether I wanted to give this new Mv2.0 a try. Our precious M had been DESTROYED by infidelity. There's no going back to "what was". We had to build a NEW M from the rubble...and I honestly couldn't be ALL IN for the first few years after Dday. My H never wavered though...and slowly but surely he won me over...and I am SO HAPPY that I stayed !

So let them beg. Let them grovel whilst you make your informed decision.

HE did do that...and I DID let him. After a while though...I didn't NEED or even WANT that. I wrote about it on here how I had made the decision to SUBMIT to my H again. Once again...that word didn't seem to mean to everyone what I felt it meant to ME . It is more like in the book Not Just Friends where the author says there are "givers" and "takers" in a M. I had always been the "giver" and my H was the "taker". After Dday that turned around. I AM a "giver" though...I LOVE being a "giver"...not just to my H but to everyone . As I was learning that some things that I THOUGHT was lost forever actually wasn't...I felt that maybe it was time to become a "giver" again . My H EARNED this...he didn't ASK for it...and it was my CHOICE to do it. I have never regretted that decision either !

Things aren't always black and white...cut and dried...or whatever saying people want to use . We ALL heal at different paces and at different times...but the GOAL is to HEAL...both Betrayeds and Waywards.

Things that I USED to believe in...like staying married forever...or once a cheater always a cheater...I now realize I hadn't had enough experience to know there was an alternative.

Things people advised on here...such as not forgiving quickly if at all...not contacting the adultery co-conspirator...stuff like that...was not what worked for ME. We want to HELP others navigate through this MESS...but what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another. MOST of what you wrote on this thread resonated with me and what I lived through. It seems like it hasn't been the same for others...and that is fine too . Like it is often written on here...take what you NEED...and LEAVE the rest !!!

This is not a natural stepping stone that everyone smoothly glides past. Many people need a direct, unapologetic reality check to snap them out of it.

I agree with this.

Did you cross paths with a member here, Hellfire? She was known as one of the most no nonsense posters, finely tuned bullshit meter, and could kill a fly with the precision of her 2x4 swings. But she also waded thru the sewer of reality with us. She and Hikingout had the biggest impacts on my walk thru this because it wasn’t theoretical. She could remind me of these things while acknowledging the current state.

I go back to this thread occasionally when I want a good cry. The first two posts are what I see as very relevant to this discussion. Keep in mind it took me about 18 months to get this point.

https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/topics/662466/i-needed-to-believe/

@InkHulk

I haven't but reading over that chain now. Really beautiful initial response. Shame she doesn't appear to be around. Would love to have knew her story.

In all honest, how do you think our interactions would have went when you were in the eye of the storm? Do you think my temperament would have been of zero benefit to you personally?

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 4:22 PM, Thursday, September 3rd]