SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Ink is correct about combining our emotional self with our ability to think objectively. It's a real art! I love when posts catch my breath like his did yours. But not to let it keep you awake....what if you simply decide to have let's say a 6 month moratorium on the marriage question while you carry on and just see how things go? If you were to table the idea of proposing for 6 months, I'm wondering where you will find yourself on this question of trust. As someone else said, you two just may not ready for this step. Is there a concern that a pregnancy could occur before you were sure you were over your questioning phase? I hadn't considered that legitimate concern. But you mentioned children...

Some researcher developed a stress chart of scores assigned to life events both positive and negative. Marriage, new job, divorce, birth of a child, death of a loved one and mortgages all had high scores. The advice was try not to have over 300 points in any year, if possible. So marriage is a stressor just as refinancing or debt is. In my dysfunctional M, my WH moved into my house on our wedding night, and I thought all was great. But the house was tiny so we looked for a long time for a more suitable place to share our lives. After D-Day, it emerged that he had reacted poorly to the stress of my breaking the news to him over the phone - he was away on a business trip - that we had to quickly make a major financial decision. Our lender called to inform us we would either not be given a loan to buy the farm we'd found, OR we would have to raise more cash by refinancing MY house which had not yet sold. Going ahead would mean he would be writing 2 larger mortgage payments every month, a massive financial commitment he'd never in his life made. I asked him what he felt like he wanted to do, and he said "Go ahead." His next move was to hire an escort to come to his hotel room, literally the next thing he did after our phone call!

I think Sisoon and Bigger also are right about you carrying some residual trauma in your mind and body but as they say, time often helps.

You think you are healed. No, you are not. There is rage boiling inside. You want revenge and can never get it. This was so traumatic for you that I think you need EMDR with a trauma specialist. You have let your ex have way too much power over you. You have glossed over the best you can but the pain is still there. Most ALL of us want the perpetrators to pay…and they seldom do. You need to get over that last hurdle so that your new love does not pay a never ending price.

Incredible. Even here folks exist who think it’s wrong to have an open device policy within a marriage. Unbelievable. I’m going the opposite way: for me it’s a boundary in marriage to have total transparency, or stated another way: there will be zero secrets in our marriage, save for a very exceptional case of a surprise bday et. al.

Dr. S, my strongest advice is to do what my wife and I now do: 100% open policy. All passwords (made easy by sharing the pw to the password app), all apps, everything. Of course (now) we about never check, as we don’t have the need or desire. That said, if I need to check something and my wife’s phone is the closest, I have no problem grabbing that to do whatever. With iOS we even add biometrics for each other on all devices so there’s never an issue.

I’d take it as a big red flag if your fiancé bristles at the idea of full & continuous transparency.

I believe there is nothing wrong with implementing an open-device policy. However, make sure that your past experiences don’t influence how you treat your fiancé.

My advice to any couple planning to marry is to read "Not Just Friends" together before any potential issues arise. This can help you work together to prevent problems in the future.

Firstly, I want to express my heartfelt gratitude to everyone for your thoughtful responses and valuable advice. Your support means a lot to me and has helped me feel more at ease with what I've been grappling with.

Just having this conversation here has significantly alleviated my concerns. Having read all the responses and slept on it, It's clear that discussing my feelings with my partner is a sensible approach. I plan to emphasize that the core issue lies with me — it's about my own feelings and experiences, rather than anything she has done or said. I believe it's important for her to understand that this is a personal journey for me, and it’s not a reflection of her actions.

I realize now that it might be unwise to keep such thoughts to myself, especially considering the importance of open communication in any relationship. I agree with the perspective that having this discussion before any potential proposal is not only fair but essential for the health of our relationship.

In this upcoming conversation, I intend to introduce the idea that I’ve learned from others who have dealt with similar past traumas. Specifically, I’ve come across the concepts of radical honesty and open phone policies. While I don’t want to impose these ideas on her, I believe that they can be beneficial tools for fostering trust and understanding. It would be helpful to discuss these concepts openly, exploring how we might integrate them into our relationship in a way that feels comfortable for both of us.

Ultimately, I aim for a conversation where we can both share our thoughts and feelings without fear of judgment. This way, we can build a stronger foundation together as we move forward. Thank you once again for your encouragement and insights.

Sounds wise and beautiful. Best wishes.

I think the key is communications, and the key to communication is listening.

Marriage is one big compromise, and we tend to think of compromise as "bad". I actually think that compromise is what we need to do all the time, and it’s what get’s us results.

I think that we tend to forget the intensity of marriage. We see this vision of holding hands and walking in sunshine. We forget that marriage also means that if you are in a coma its your spouse who gets to decide when to turn off the machines... I would want my spouse to build that decision on knowing me, understanding what I would want and for the decision to be built on love and respect.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 3:32 PM, Tuesday, February 18th]

Communication is great, especially when you communicate important stuff. I urge you to make sure you do NOT say anything that can be interpreted to mean, 'I have these pain points, and I'm asking you to avoid triggering them.'

That is, you're owning that the problem is in you; keep the burden of solving it on you without transferring it to her

Going to the root cause and dealing with the trauma, OTOH, is almost guaranteed to work.

There's more than one approach to digital privacy. I don't open my W USPS mail. W opens the envelopes for mu USPS mail but doesn't read it. We have easy access to each other's digital mail, though my W doesn't know how to get to my mail. I rarely read hers, and then only when she gives me permission to read it. Our phones are phones, cameras, and mine is part of 2FA for a couple of sites I access on my laptop. Phones and computers are open. We're in deep shit if our home is invaded....

[This message edited by SI Staff at 3:38 PM, Tuesday, February 18th]

What I read you to plan to communicate is something like, 'I have these pain points, and I'm asking you to avoid triggering them.'

That is, you're owning that the problem is in you, but you're trying to get her to solve it for you

I would slightly alter that perception.

I'm owning that the problem is in me but suggesting there are ways we can share things in the relationship that may be healthier generally. If she's open to thes steps they may have the added benefit of subduing my irrational concerns.

I feel given the wealth of advice provided this seems to be the best middle ground.

In summarizing the responses I've had here; most people have advised communicating these issues is largely positive, many people have largely agreed on working on self healing is the priority and some have advocated for radical honesty/open phone policy. A few people have suggested the very presence of these issues means I'm not ready for marriage and one person believes communicating these concerns will blow up my relationship.

As with life, all you can do is try to find what you feel is the best advice from a cross section of differing opinions. I feel what I've suggested my next steps to be is the most reasonable middle ground. I'm not suggesting my plan will put an end to my healing journey generally but my bias is always towards communication and proactivity.

Take what you need, leave the rest.

The "middle ground" doesn’t guarantee success. You’ve expressed yourself, you’ve heard other perspectives. Trust yourself to synthesize the information and take a step forward. You will get even more information after that step and you can adjust if needed. You got this.

Hey Doc, I'm sorry if my rambling writing left you with the impression that you 'not being ready for marriage' was my main thought. (I did sort of imply that, I confess, because I was chiming in on someone else's hypothetical comment. My bad.)

Actually, I was trying to find a politically correct way to say: 'If one doesn't get married, one doesn't have to go through such a horrible wringer as we have, should one's worst fears turn out to be fact.' And therefore I asked you, why would you want to take the step since you know so well it carries risks.

But that question was based on having suffered through 2 marriages with cheating husbands over a span of 41 years and at age 73 needing to extricate myself legally/emotionally from most of my life history. I feel I would have been a lot more productive overall in my later years had I just continued to keep this WH as my "new friend" until I discovered his true colors, whereupon I could have stopped seeing him. My problem relationship would thus have been in the rearview mirror, despite a share of pain for its loss, and left me free to live my own life.

So I wanted to say sorry about that projection.

I present 2 perspectives for your consideration:

1. Even though the core issue lies with you, it is ok to ask your partner for help. It is even ok to ask for some amount of asymmetric concessions from your partner as a form of help.

Imagine if it were your girlfriend who was abused and traumatized instead of you. Lets say her ex was a Sunderland AFC fan and whenever they lost, he would get furious and pick a fight with her and maybe even get a bit physical. He also really liked white vests(wifebeater). Now your GF has just remortgaged with her ex and has plans to propose to you herself. Due to these highly emotional circumstances she becomes much more sensitive to her triggers and as a result she asks you to not wear white wifebeaters or watch any football game with Sunderland for the time being. Now unless you are highly invested in Sunderland or white wifebeaters you'll probably at least hear her out if not simply agree on the spot. Naturally the reason being that her peace of mind is important to you and if you can help provide it without much fuss, then you'll be happy to do so. This example is meant to illustrate that even asymmetric concessions can be reasonable. Thus I don't quite agree with this:

I believe it's important for her to understand that this is a personal journey for me, and it’s not a reflection of her actions.

It's not a reflection of her actions, but the journey can definitely be shared with her. In the above example, would you say that her journey of healing from DV is one that you wouldn't accompany her on because you didn't cause it? On the contrary, I would say that sharing these kinds of journeys is part of the basic purpose of healthy fiance/spouse relationships.

I feel that the core message of the admonitions people have been giving you is that you shouldn't take this sharing too far, because then you'll be imposing on her or she'll be coddling you. This has to due with the nature of infidelity. The concessions related to infidelity tend to be quite invasive because they deal heavily with privacy, which can give them "controlling" connotations if not handled properly. I think this is why many people were worried of what message it might send to your GF. Of course this is the reason these concessions are offered symmetrically, to provide peace of mind to both partners. But even so, you should proceed carefully.

2. How much does more healing *really* matter?

You are in the midst of 2 major life events both related to romantic relationships. As a result, some old feelings have resurfaced and you are thinking about asking your GF for an open phone policy to help resolve those feelings. Now would it be ideal if you could just do therapy until nothing triggers you anymore? Sure, but as you've indicated:

Therapy is not in my immediate future due to a myriad of reasons that I won't go into at the moment but noted

there are other priorities in life. All in all how big of a deal is asking for an open phone policy to you? and your GF?

I think you should weigh the pros and cons of how much more healing you think you need. If the open phone policy isn't that big a deal and it does settle your anxieties then maybe you can just stop here, and next time some confluence of life effects causes an episode of unease, you can lean on your GF for help until it passes. Take the above example again, lets say your GF(now wife) opts to stop therapy and thereafter triggers once every 5 or 10 years and every time you have to not watch Sunderland and not wear white whifebeaters for 3 months. It's easily conceivable that if you don't care much about those 2 items you would say, "Ok, this is a good deal for us, I don't care about those things and you can use the time you saved from therapy pursue other interests." Now apply that to you instead of your GF. If you leaning on her really doesn't cost her that much, it may very well be worth it to do so.

The point is that the purpose of healing is so that you can guard against bad outcomes, like trigger episodes, mentally and emotionally restore yourself, and move forward with life. It's not to achieve some kind of personal high score in terms of inner tranquility(unless that is what you're going for). Obviously, since you don't know what challenges life will bring, you should err on the side of caution(which is more healing). Also this does not mean you don't need to go to therapy or work on yourself again, but rather that not being "fully" healed isn't some kind of moral failing or virtue deficiency.

[This message edited by mardandra at 10:33 AM, Wednesday, February 19th]

Superesse - No need for an apology at all. I highly value any contribution from a member with such a wealth of experience as yourself. Thank you for your follow up.

Lets say her ex was a Sunderland AFC fan

This being the case I would doubt her judgement so much we'd never have made it this far ahahah.

there are other priorities in life. All in all how big of a deal is asking for an open phone policy to you? and your GF?

I think you should weigh the pros and cons of how much more healing you think you need.

This is rings true. I think inherently posting a thread such as this provides the image that I'm living in such deep trauma I'm unable to function. That perhaps my trust issues have crippled my ability to live life and am struggling to maintain this relationship. This is not the case. Our relationship is fantastic. Life is good. The fears eb and flow. I'm never up all night worrying. I can generally talk myself out these concerns using logic.

If I have such a bout of irrational worrying, generally I talk myself out of it fairly quickly by thinking: 'In actuality, when could she even be conducting this affair? We literally spend 99 percent of our time together. We both work from home the majority of the week. We always spend weekends together. It would have to be conducted during the 2 and half days a week she goes into the office. Or the the odd time she goes round to visit her mum. She's never back late, is never is overly protective of her phone. This is what I mean by the worries being irrational.

If the open phone policy isn't that big a deal and it does settle your anxieties then maybe you can just stop here, and next time some confluence of life effects causes an episode of unease, you can lean on your GF for help until it passes.

Agreed, I think my supposed plan basically walks this line.

Also this does not mean you don't need to go to therapy or work on yourself again, but rather that not being "fully" healed isn't some kind of moral failing or virtue deficiency.

Beautifully said, ultimately is anyone fully healed? I doubt it.

I have come across posts from couples who have worked their fingers to the bone in 'R'. Really done everything conceivably possible. Read the books, did the MC and IC. Sometimes even go on those post affair recovery retreats. Implemented radical honesty. They report to be at a place where they claim to be happier and in a better place then ever before. Yet even these people 5/10/15 years after the fact can watch a movie about an affair and be triggered. Sometimes it's a specific time of year. Sometimes it's passing a specific location. Perhaps some triggers will never go away. That's life. You just work at them.

This is my thoughts on trauma generally. Not just relating to infidelity. People hold a flake of trauma from their parents divorcing, an embarrassing moment at high school and work blunders.

You just hit a state of being as healed as you can be to live your life as happily as possible. This is what I mean in my tag.

On a lighter note, it's our anniversary this weekend, and we're throwing a silly festival-themed celebration at home! We’re moving the furniture around, setting up a tent, and enjoying a concert on the TV while sipping on mimosas. It’s a fun throwback to when we were dating during lockdown, when everything was closed and our date options were limited. We used to talk about how much we missed festivals, and we both dreamed of going to Glastonbury one day. So when she arrived at my place, I had the living room all set up like a mini-festival.

Speaking of Glastonbury, we’re actually going this year! So fingers crossed for a fantastic lineup—so far, only Neil Young has been announced. It feels like everything has come full circle.

With that in mind I suppose this conversation might be put on hold for a little while!

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 10:34 AM, Wednesday, February 19th]

Beautifully said, ultimately is anyone fully healed? I doubt it.

It’s a fair point. However, my recent experience with EMDR gives me a different perspective. In these sessions, we started with early childhood experiences. My parents’ divorce. Abusive treatment from an older sibling. Deep feelings of rejection by my peers. Re-exploring these in such a way as to change my own self beliefs around them has been pretty amazing. I would have said I was "healed enough". And then I wept for hours on a therapists couch and uncovered lies I believed about myself. Time doesn’t heal all wounds. Sometimes you have to act to make a change.

Also this does not mean you don't need to go to therapy or work on yourself again, but rather that not being "fully" healed isn't some kind of moral failing or virtue deficiency.

I'm sorry if I've communicated that any competitiveness or morality is in the mix of healing.

The whole point is to overcome the trauma so one can live in the present and not in the past, as much as a human being can avoid living in the past.

This is my thoughts on trauma generally. Not just relating to infidelity. People hold a flake of trauma from their parents divorcing, an embarrassing moment at high school and work blunders.

Your posts say that you hold more than a flake. For one thing, you wrote that you've made infidelity a hobby....

(Note: I know I'm still here to get something, but I haven't been able to identify what that is, so I stick around. I don't remember claiming to be fully healed. I do know that I process new pain pretty much as it comes in, which is helpful.)

One of the few areas - maybe the only area - in which other people can know a person better than a person can know themself is in personal problem-solving. It's often very difficult to see oneself as one is, because it's very difficult to observe a system from within that system.

Note that a number of observers on and outside SI have suggested therapy. Therapy won't work unless a person wants to change, but I urge you to keep those suggestions in mind as you go forward.