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Which is why I struggle so much when I read these deeply conflicted/ego kibble/down in the dumps explanations of affairs, they don't mirror my experience at all.

Um ... you've posted several times that the reason you chased women was that you felt better about yourself when they succumbed to your charm.

That is exactly what is meant by the term 'ego kibbles'.

It's the only kind of male cheat I know IRL, and I know quite a few.

I was a complete failure with my company. Lost/stole nearly 55k dollars. Ended up a slob, drinking, smoking and suicidal. Was anything but confident. Then I had an affair. So here, now you know one that isn't.

Equating "asshole" with "broken" can be done I guess. But it's not useful. Asshole is an easy label with no substance except a cheap excuse for not wanting to look at yourself. Broken denotes the ability to fix. I know, I know, semantics... In Hebrew we have a saying that translates to: "life and death is at the hand of the tongue".

Maybe I would prefer to be arrogant than damaged? Selfish rather than victimized?

People do the things that they do for a variety of reasons; some healthy, others not so much. Arrogance is a sign of damage. And selfish people usually victimize themselves to a high degree.

As far as gender stereotypes? Men and women are biologically different. And social forces have been shaped by that. But in the end, who cares what other people see you as? You're not the sum of intersections. You're an individual. Work up from there :)

[This message edited by forgettableDad at 12:56 PM, December 8th (Tuesday)]

Equating "asshole" with "broken" can be done I guess. But it's not useful. Asshole is an easy label with no substance except a cheap excuse for not wanting to look at yourself. Broken denotes the ability to fix. I know, I know, semantics... In Hebrew we have a saying that translates to: "life and death is at the hand of the tongue".

If we see someone kicking a dog, we don't say "Oh the poor broken soul, driven by his own damage to kick this dog". We say "Get that asshole away from that poor dog!". Perhaps both of those would be accurate and it is all semantics. If "broken" didn't lead to "asshole", who would try to fix broken?

If we see someone kicking a dog, we don't say "Oh the poor broken soul, driven by his own damage to kick this dog". We say "Get that asshole away from that poor dog!". Perhaps both of those would be accurate and it is all semantics. If "broken" didn't lead to "asshole", who would try to fix broken?

But if broken leads to asshole then clearly broken isn't "asshole".

Broken leads to many different results. The definition of a mental illness/disorder is a condition that leads to distress and/or problems functioning in social, work or family activities. Lacking empathy for animals should be pitied. Calling the person doing the kicking an asshole might (probably) make you feel better. But that's all it is. A self-serving action.

Lacking empathy for animals should be pitied.

Maybe this one sentence illuminates where we differ. I work and volunteer part-time at an animal shelter. I pity the animals who come in abused, abandoned and starved. The person who did that to them is an asshole. I don't pity that person. There may be numerous different reasons for why that person acted in such an asshole fashion and they may be very sad reasons. I am not saying that a person who kicked and starved a dog cannot turn his or her life around and become a rescuer and healer of dogs in the future. I just don't have pity for that person while he or she is abusing that dog. Best case scenario is that person looks at his/her actions and stops kicking the dog, looks into ways to not be a person who would kick the dog, and makes deep changes to no longer be an animal-abusing asshole. Asshole is not an unchangable state of being. We have all been some level of asshole at various times for various reasons.

and makes deep changes to no longer be an animal-abusing asshole

How though? telling someone "just stop being an asshole" isn't very useful.

If I catch my son hitting a dog, should I just call him an asshole and then what - slap him? beat him? If you catch my son hitting a dog, do you just call him an asshole? Should he not receive some modicum of compassion. His dad just cheated on him mom and his entire world is about to crash. Do you think most people see a dog and go bounding over to kick him with glee?

"Asshole" is an easy catch-all phrase but has zero functionality for helping someone fix a broken behavioral pattern. You say you've been an asshole at various times and for various reasons; did you ever try to figure out the behavior itself and change that or do you just go, "oh well, I was just an asshole that one time I guess"?

Of course life gets more complicated then that; some people are evil for the sake of being evil. Most people are not though.

[This message edited by forgettableDad at 5:34 AM, December 9th (Wednesday)]

Maybe this one sentence illuminates where we differ. I work and volunteer part-time at an animal shelter. I pity the animals who come in abused, abandoned and starved. The person who did that to them is an asshole. I don't pity that person.

I think this is exactly the difference Dee. Someone who's "broken", I pity that person and wish them the best in their recovery. The classic example, a war vet with PTSD from what happened to them in combat. There are plenty of others, including the BS who simply can't get it together and either hurt him/herself or has other deeply negative long term consequences from their H/W's A. That's a "broken" person who, again, I pity and want to help.

Broken, to me, implies that "happened to" that person, something so deeply negative that it set their life off on a different path. I don't equate the term with someone CHOOSING to go down a different/negative path, or, as at least my WW did, enjoying that path with glee.

Broken removed culpability, the "dog kicker" in your example, I'm sure has a lot of sob stories they could tell you Dee. Their Mom didn't love them, their Dad left, they were bullied in school.. A story I could also tell you, BTW, but we all have a "I'm broken" sob story about how awful our life has been that we can point at and say "See, I'm broken, not an asshole". Words like "broken" allow you to externalize your negative actions; gonna go kick a few dogs today, but it's OK, because it's not really me, it's my "broken" that's causing me to do it.

Even if it is true, I'm not sure it's a good idea to get people into that line of thinking. Own your actions, good and bad. Thinking that good things happen to you at work because of "luck" and bad things happen to you because of "broken" is about as disempowering as it gets. No, good things happen to you because you're a good employee, and bad things happen to you because you're not as good (or well connected) as others (and I say this having been laid off several times in my career; I own "I wasn't good enough/contributing enough" not "Well, that company sucked anyway".

I hate it when we take something internal, something that can be fixed through personal decision making and effort and make it something external; which is what I feel like broken leads us to.

Um ... you've posted several times that the reason you chased women was that you felt better about yourself when they succumbed to your charm.

That is exactly what is meant by the term 'ego kibbles'.

When forced to dig into 5 layers of "why", I don't recall saying that, but I won't argue the point, I may have said it. But that was by NO means my primary goal in chasing women; "feel better about myself" compared to "sex/orgasms" barely rate on the same scale of importance to me.

How though? telling someone "just stop being an asshole" isn't very useful.

I guess it depends on the person. Personally, I don't like the "soft touch" approach. I've shared this before, but when I was younger, I had a serious substance abuse problem. While working through it, I found a lot of people, in private practice who were more than happy to tell me "Well, RIO, you drink because of your childhood, let's examine that", or "RIO, you drink because your depressed, let's examine that". It wasn't until I got to AA and got a sponsor who said things like "You drink because you don't care about how much you hurt other people, let's work on that" and "You drink because your selfish, lets work on that" that I really started to make progress. Nobody "did this to me" or "caused me to drink", nobody "broke me", I was just a selfish, entitled man who did not care about how my actions impacted my friends and most of all, my family. A few sessions of "Can you imagine how you father feels seeing you like this" were exactly what I needed to help me understand that, well, I was being an asshole and causing other people impossible levels of pain by my actions.

And I do get it, we're all different; I think that other people probably do respond better to the "softball" approach. But I'll tell you, in AA, which is one of the most effective ways we know to quit drinking, you won't find much "softball". You'll find a lot of blunt and entirely truthful analysis of what you're doing, what you've done, and how to fix it (making amends). If you're "soft" with an addict, they will generally walk all over you. Perhaps there's a good reason we use so much addiction terminology when discussing an A?

This is really interesting. I'm hearing that people hear the word "broken" differently. Some people hear "broken" to mean what's going on internally that contributed to bad behavior. Others seem to hear "broken" as a word used to avoid responsibility. Like "I was broken. Poor me. I'm not at fault."

Personally, I use the term "broken" as a catch all here. Kind of like we say "doing the work" or other SI terms. Not every WS is broken. Some people have exit A's, others are in difficult relationship dynamics, some have revenge affairs, some just want sex. And some people have a history that affected their inner makeup and the way they view themselves and the people and world around them. And that colors their behavior for better or for worse.

But broken does not mean I am not at fault and aren't responsible for my actions. It's not a way to point the blame elsewhere. It's a term I see used around here to get a WS to dig deep and understand themselves. To accept who they are and what they did and make themselves a better person. That's all.

I guess it depends on the person. Personally, I don't like the "soft touch" approach. I've shared this before, but when I was younger, I had a serious substance abuse problem. While working through it, I found a lot of people, in private practice who were more than happy to tell me "Well, RIO, you drink because of your childhood, let's examine that", or "RIO, you drink because your depressed, let's examine that". It wasn't until I got to AA and got a sponsor who said things like "You drink because you don't care about how much you hurt other people, let's work on that" and "You drink because your selfish, lets work on that" that I really started to make progress. Nobody "did this to me" or "caused me to drink", nobody "broke me", I was just a selfish, entitled man who did not care about how my actions impacted my friends and most of all, my family. A few sessions of "Can you imagine how you father feels seeing you like this" were exactly what I needed to help me understand that, well, I was being an asshole and causing other people impossible levels of pain by my actions.

I never met one truly recovered/recovering addict who didn't have this exact viewpoint. I've known quite a few active and constantly relapsing addicts who felt sorry for themselves and their brokenness.

ForgettableDad, hugging the dog kicker doesn't fix it just as coddling a wayward doesn't nice them out of an affair. I have absolutely behaved like an asshole in my life and each time what made me not repeat that behavior was understanding that I had caused someone else pain. I can have all the sads I want over anything that has happened to me, but I do not have the right to take that pain and pass it on to someone else. No matter how bad my mood, no matter how awful the thing that happened was, I have no excuse for hurting someone else because of it.

If a man is beating his wife and kids, we have him arrested and get a restraining order for the wife and kids. If hugs and kisses and pity for his childhood would stop him, his wife would have had that covered long ago. You almost never find a situation with a spousal abuser where he doesn't have some really messed up tragic stuff in his background. We can deal with hugging that out long after we have protected his family from him and ensured that he cannot kill them. He has to be treated like the asshole he is until everyone is safe. He stops being just an asshole when he actually reaches out for help to fix his broken parts and means it. Until then, he's just a dangerous person. Pity all day long, but keep your distance.

I can assure you that I was extremely good to my XWH, but none of that stopped him from treating me like an afterthought while he cheated on me and then proceeded to abuse drugs. He got clean a couple of times once the drugs began, but only after I kicked him out and cut him out of my life. Consequences sent him to rehab, not my tears. He couldn't care about the tears until he had enough concequences to make him want to stop being an asshole. I wish it were otherwise, that being kind to those who hurt us would make them stop hurting us. That isn't generally how it works.

What I don't like is when that word is used to absolve the WS from responsibility. I think the only way to become healthy and a safe partner is by finding out what those things are through IC, acknowledging those parts of you as who you are, and then working on them and fixing them to become a better and healthier person.

I am 100 percent with Mrs. Walloped on this.

To me, we talk about things like they are mutually exclusive, that to take responsibility we just have to cop to being selfish assholes. That really doesn't get you anywhere. You have to accept that you don't want to be selfish asshole, and learn what got you there and how you are going to get out. Then, you have to get out - and paradox of WS healing is that they have to shed their shame and become someone they love and respect. To me this takes a lot of time of living and thinking differently.

I am not a victim of my choices to cheat. But, I am a person who mismanaged her life to the point she hated it and wanted to escape it. I didn't look for an affair, but due to my internal world was more vulnerable to it than I had ever been.

I agree with Mrs. Panda, I didn't become a whole new person through my healing exactly. I mean, I still do the same type of work for employment, I am still a mom, I still have the same talents I had before, and some of the same weaknesses. But, I have a new self-awareness, less blind spots, and a whole lot more wisdom though all of this.

Infidelity is a horrible juncture in life that has a crossroad. It takes us down. We pull the trigger and have responsibility over that, but needing to recover from it is a separate aspect.

You can go in the direction of living a life in shame. Go that door, and you will stay depressed, your partner will never find you attractive in that state, you will not understand the roots of it, or how the shame was there all along. First as a seed, then growing into a small leaf, until it gets bigger and bigger. Your decisions are guided by this - making you way more susceptible to making poor ones.

Or, you can recognize that you are inherently worthy, trace where that shame began, where the poor coping was taught (that's why all IC will always start with FOO - not because it made the decision happen, but because to fix your shit you need to understand where it was formed). You can lose some blindpots, gain self compassion, and become a more improved version of yourself.

Door number two in my opinion is crucial firstly because your relationship with yourself is something you never will be able to escape. And, secondly, it's the only way you will ever successfully reconcile. Your spouse needs to see that growth, a person that they can grow to respect and love.

So, yes, I do agree with Mrs. Panda that we are not victims in the situation. But, I do not think that maintaining "I am a selfish asshole" as a mantra is healthy in getting to where you need to go to lead a happy, healthy, productive life.

I think it's the first step though to recognize it, because you can't change what you don't acknowledge.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:36 AM, December 9th (Wednesday)]

My best friend fed my WGF the story that she was played by a playa and she has grasped that narrative and is running with it but in reality as I review the datapoints I have it was the probably the reverse situation and she was likely the predatory cougar without consciously knowing it.

It was my WGF that flirtatiously asked AP whether sex had dried up now that he had been married 6 months (this was 3 years before the A started) it was my WGF that booked adjoining rooms for the work event and it was my WGF that booked and paid for the 1 x double room the next time round, which wasn’t actually a real work event.

She spent years talking about this poor young sod who had poor self esteem and was under appreciated by his superiors so I think she was the KISA is our situation.

If only I knew what these red flags meant at the time. Although if I’d tried to have done anything about them it just would’ve added to her “my BF is controlling” mantra.

Funny post DDay after the AP dropped her like a stone and BF is a super hero, go figure.

I believe that it's safe to say that infidelity arises from damage. I believe I can say this, from both sides of the fence.

I don't speak about my side of the fence too often on SI, which has, at times, felt disingenuous and intellectually (and perhaps even emotionally) dishonest.

But, in the end, this is not The Court of SI. What matters is how my husband and I define our history and our choices.

I will now speak as an Almost Wayward, as someone who was so strongly tempted and got so close to crossing that line that it's uncomfortable to remember, and to discuss.

I will tell you how I got there, and how and why I stepped back from the line.

For the first several years of our relationship, through college/dating, through early marriage, through having babies, through the early years with kids, my husband and I had the most normal and happy of intimate lives.

Husband's indiscretion happened smack dab in the middle of an otherwise healthy and robust young sex life- which made it all the more confusing to me, but simultaneously facilitated the subsequent rug sweeping by both of us. *Everything* very quickly went back to 'normal' between us, courtesy of Husband's much sanitized narrative (I didn't really have to look at the thing) and that proved that we were fine. Right? Right.

Somewhere in my husband's/our mid-ish thirties, our intimate life went off the rails. I mean, it literally evaporated overnight. In what felt like a matter of months, our sex life disintegrated into a dead bedroom.

We limped along.

Neither of us had ever heard the term "dead bedroom" and we had no concept of the definition of it.

If his dick worked at all and we had sex even rarely then it didn't count as 'no sex,' right?

If we'd known how and when and to whom to reach out for help, then we would have *clearly* seen that we were in a textbook dead bedroom situation. We were in the deadest of dead bedrooms, no doubt about it.

As it was, I knew *something* was very, very wrong. I just didn't know what to do about it.

At first I went down the obvious checklist:

Were we healthy? Check.

Physically active? In good shape? Check.

Diet/exercise? Check.

Attractive? Both of us? Check.

Signs of 'other people?' Negative. (I honestly did not and still do not suspect extracurricular involvement on Husband's part during this time. Didn't feel that way, didn't look that way, no 'red flags,' etc.)

So of course I took what I would call 'the Redbook Approach':

Worked even harder on my appearance.

Worked even harder on my physical fitness.

Was more meticulous about my grooming and maintenance. (This from a woman who shaves all of her bits and pieces EVERY. DAMNED. DAY. OF. HER. LIFE.) (You get the picture.)

Was up for anything in the bedroom.

Problem being... no interest. None. Zero zilch nada.

So I began to introduce 'new things.'

I introduced so many fucking new things that I began to feel like some sort of perverted party clown.

It's actually somewhat squicky but also somewhat darkly, ironically humorous to look back at it now.

And then I started to feel, desperate. Frenetic. Trying too hard. It shouldn't be this difficult.

In the meantime, my husband is sliding into the clutches of full blown workaholism. We both recognize it now as clearly as writing on a wall.

Not too much earlier in this timespan, there was a merger of two separate corporate entities within the same company. Teams collided.

Husband's boss sat his team down and told them that company culture was changing, and that this was intentional.

It was no longer enough to 'do a good job.' Not even enough to 'do an excellent job.' In order to remain employed and to have a long term career with this company, one had to make oneself indispensable.

Great motivator, that.

These were already highly skilled, highly trained, highly motivated, *very competitive* people, without pitting them against well-matched others and lighting the cage on fire.

I honestly now wonder if there were even more nefarious and intentional manipulations afoot: pairing people who were competitively well-matched, too well-matched, up with each other, throwing them into the cage, and watching them work themselves and each other to death- while continuously lighting the cage on fire with drop dead deadlines, etc.

It became brutal, but at that point the pot was just beginning to simmer. Both of us are self-starters and hard workers and highly skilled and in demand and a simmering pot??? Pffffbttt, what else you got?

But it was more than the workload- it was that mandate to become "indispensable." That got lodged in Husband's brain as a mantra for survival. And it got reinforced by TPTB.

And we were young enough and stupid enough and naive enough and idealistic enough and over confident enough not to recognize the teeth of the meatgrinder into which we'd just been thrown.

And of course, most of us here are of a certain age- we recognize the mandate to become "indispensable" as utter bullshit- but not when one is young and omnipotent, right?

So our married life, our intimate life, our entire family began to operate on the basis of project schedules. We just needed to get through Husband's current project.

And then the next one.

And then the next one.

Wash rinse repeat.

We maintained the household, we raised our children, we kept the budget on balance, we saved for the future, we did all the right things, we kept up appearances,

but the pot was continuing to boil and the pressure kept mounting and our intimate life totally evaporated. *Poof!* gone!

In the meantime, I noticed that Husband had developed this sort of free floating anxiety which tried desperately to attach itself to something, anything.

I began to shift my focus from superficial things like appearance and appeal and sexual party tricks to more substantial things like our finances, the daily operation of the house, etc.

Husband was raised in a home where Mother didn't work, and when Father wasn't out on contract, he was at home by This O'Clock every night. He came home to a hot dinner on the table. Ergo Husband took a hot dinner on the table and the family there to eat it together quite seriously as a measure of success.

So I doubled down on this effort, despite having *a far different life* than my mother in law. TRUST ME, I WOULD HAVE LOVED TO HAVE HAD THE JOB OF JUST GETTING A DAMNED DINNER ON THE TABLE BY 6PM AS THE SOLE FOCUS OF MY DAMNED DAY. But that wasn't my life. We owned a home, we had kids, we needed my income, and my chosen profession and professional training prepared me and required of me far, far, far more than 9 to 5. Evenings, nights, wee hours, weekends, holidays, call, you'll leave work when work is done with you, etc.

And in the middle of all of this, I'm either getting a hot meal on the table every night, or I am providing the where with all for that hot meal to get from the fridge to the table with minimum effort in my forced absence. Insult to injury, I might never see that damned meal myself. I'd go without.

I began to think that Husband was stressed about finances- so then I began to work on the household budget and operations. I tightened belts and streamlined and learned all sorts of large and small cost cutting skills.

No doubt those skills had an impact, small and cumulative, or large and life changing, and they continue to this day. I am grateful to have learned them.

But at that time, did removing even a modicum of stress change anything in our intimate life?

Nope.

I was simply not omnipotent enough to remove all of the stressors from Husband's life.

Bedroom still as dead as ever.

So now I'm this 30 something year old wife and mother who is going to the gym, running, still rocking the tiniest bikini on the beach and rocking it *very well,* shaving her bits every day, applying make up every morning, keeping up with the hair and eyebrows and as much as feasibly possible considering the work environment, nail maintenance, keeping a clean enough home (without outside help) that her mother in law is threatened by it and pokes fun at it, grocery shops every week, hangs laundry on the line, cuts three heads of hair (Husband's and the kids') at home, sews her own clothes, cooks at home (many of my coworkers flat did not cook period and made no bones about that) home cans food, keeps a budget tracked by financial software, plans family vacations, has an impressive lingerie and sex toy collection and is not afraid to use both (IN FACT WOULD LOVE TO USE BOTH) aaaaaand, nothing.

The whole 'make yourself indispensable' combined with other aspects of FOO modeling just totally screwed with Husband's head. It created a free floating anxiety monster that ate our lives- and neither one of us had a clue about what we were seeing, experiencing, living.

I could have left.

I offered to leave- many times.

I offered the simplest, cleanest, most equitable divorce possible. Just let me go. I won't screw you over, I promise- just tell me it's over, and let me go.

At those moments, Husband bled- he sincerely bled- he did NOT want a divorce.

He had *no clue* how to be married, but he adamantly and sincerely did not want a divorce.

It was quite genuine and believable.

Add to that- I was the product of a spectacularly broken home and then my father's equally spectacularly bad second marriage OMG.

I would have, I did, walk through fire to prevent that from happening to my own children.

When I considered divorce, I considered two possibilities:

1. That my husband and I would divorce, and that he'd subsequently find his Angel, the woman so fucking heavenly that she inspires him to be present in his marriage. He will be utterly devoted to her and so enthralled with her that he will actually *be married,*

or,

he would have been bitch slapped enough by the divorce that even if the next wife was a mere mortal (God bless her! <3) my now 'woke' ex husband would *actually show up and put in the work,*

Either way,

because we have children together, I will be by default forced to sit there and watch *her* have the husband and the life for which I had worked so hard for so long, which would cause me to want to eat my own eyeballs,

and of course since my husband was now 'showing up' and it was an overall happier life, my kids would of course love her more than me, because, happier!

or,

2. My now ex husband, who has *no fucking idea* how to be married (obviously) will fall victim to the first manipulative sociopathic bitch who shows up and slaps a convenient bandaid on his divorce wound. Cue hell for my kids. I know, because I lived that in my father's second marriage.

No way, no how.

So I sat there, in the pressure cooker.

As I've said before on SI, there were always 'bids' in my direction.

After all, look at the existential dump I typed up there:

I was showing up every day as a female who shaved her bits, took care of the hair/eyebrows/nails, ran miles, lifted weights, wore makeup, provided herself with well fitting clothing, was competent in many areas, generally had her act together.

I was also, under that surface veneer, totally and completely exhausted.

Weak? Hardly. Fucking hardly.

Tired? Definitely.

Frustrated? LIKE. YOU. WOULD. NOT. BELIEVE.

It was probably my first real life lesson in, 'There Are Just Some Things That You Cannot Fix.'

My husband was working out his own script, handed down from The FOO, that had little to nothing to do with me- except I was providing comfortable infrastructure while he worked it out.

Yeah, I wasn't weak,

I wasn't 'broken,'

but I was fucking *exhausted.*

Think about PTSD. Think about the definition of PTSD. One of the colloquial, anecdotal definitions of PTSD is not that it's a sign of weakness, but more that it's a sign of courage and bravery against overwhelming odds. It's not that one is weak, it's that one has been too strong for too long.

I'd fought off so many superficial 'bids' for so long in the face of this situation that it was laughable.

I'd fought off 'forced bids' in which I was (almost quite literally arm-twisted) into 'getting with the program.' Trust me, going along to get along in some environments would have made (unfortunately) my work life easier in the short term. I had absolutely *no interest* and that made that particular portion of my life much, much more intensely uncomfortable in fits and starts.

And now I'm exhausted. And starving. And out of fuel. And long out of fucking ideas for dealing with the hand I've been dealt (fair enough, I didn't bring all of this to the table) and with which, for various reasons, *I chose* (on me) to continue to play.

Only I wasn't choosing those reasons all for my benefit. Sure, there was some benefit for me, and I'm reaping it now, years later, in terms of financial (and even marital, my husband does recognize loyalty) security. Mostly, I was choosing the reasons that benefitted our children, and even my husband.

Although I was emotionally and sexually starving at this table, I recognized his hard work- and I did get the sense that his neglect was the result of devils chasing him down the road.

But anyway, into this vignette walks a guy. Just a guy. He's a dude.

He's OK enough.

We have enough overlapping interests and points of reference.

He has enough bona fides to make him appealing enough.

He's not physically repulsive. He's enough 'my type.'

But most of all, he's just, there.

He's available, but just *removed* enough.

It could work.

We could hit that shit up, get it done, and walk away. Nobody would be the wiser. If nobody knows, then nobody would care. I'd get a precious little of what I need, what I'm starving for, and nobody else would get hurt...

Right?

And the dude is saying and doing *all of the right things.* Not too much, not too little. (No doubt not his first rodeo.)

I don't believe a goddamned thing that he's saying. No, I do not. But that's not the point.

Because, ultimately, it's not about him.

It's about *me.*

I am ashamed as hell to say this,

but at that moment, if I'd made a random, remotely acceptable dick hard, it would have been enough. I was that fucked up and starving.

So did I not care about my husband?

Did I not see that he was suffering too?

Sure I did.

But I also saw that I'd thrown *everything I had* at trying to help- and my husband, due to his own damage, due to his own script, was pulling himself in another direction.

My help wasn't what he needed. It was there- he just didn't want it, not at that time.

So what kept me from falling over that precipice?

Honestly, pure practicality.

I'd love to tell you that it was all because I Loved My Husband.

I did, I still do-

but imagine offering, bringing, *throwing,* burning your love on a pyre every fucking day, and having your intended respond with,

"Ah yeah OK wait a minute..." endlessly,

or not responding *at all.*

Or, better yet, being pissed because you bothered them. Again.

No, I didn't fall off of that precipice for *the purely practical reason* that at a visceral level, I realized that I'd only be adding shit to the stack.

So I settled myself down, buckled down, sublimated, and GOT THROUGH LIFE.

... and as you can now see, this is where a LOT of my psychological damage emanates: I got through life, only to find out that my husband had walked himself off of that cliff years before. WTF.

And that's a LOT of what I *screamed* at Husband immediately following the actual DDay a couple few years ago,

"DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW MANY TIMES I'VE SAID NO???"

Now, intrinsically, the two situations are different:

Husband really *was* mindless and careless and immature and honestly, stupid as fuck. (Sorry, Husband, but you were.)

If I'd stepped off of that cliff, it would have been *a far more deliberate choice,* and honestly, IMHO, a far more serious comment on the state of our relationship.

I will NOT say that it would have been a far more serious offense, BECAUSE IT WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN,

but it would have been a far more serious weather report.

... or,

Would it?

Interesting question.

[This message edited by marriageredux959 at 9:16 PM, December 9th (Wednesday)]

The classic example, a war vet with PTSD from what happened to them in combat.

Yeah, I was married to one of them. I am a huge fan of vets and have the deepest respect and admiration for what they do. But I was also told by said PTSD-riddled vet that part of the reason why he just had to fuck an 18 yo was because "she didn't see him as broken" because she hadn't spent hours in ERs with him after he had seizures and do his laundry when he pissed himself during said episodes and spend years stressing about coming home and finding him dead from one and didn't spend time encouraging him to make VA appointments and take his meds and and AND.

Yes, people can be 'broken' by things that happen TO them. And I empathize with (not pity) 'broken' people in that regard. But when people use said 'brokenness' to be selfish shitbags then I kinda stop pitying them and kinda think they're assholes. My xwh's affair broke parts of me too - I wouldn't ever deliberately cause pain to another person because of that or use it as an excuse to be a douchebag.

RIO, mate, notice that no one but yourself in that story used the word "asshole" to describe you. What do you think would have happened if you walked into that first AA meeting and your mentor just said; "Well RIO, you drink because you're an asshole"

Nope. Your mentor pointed out your broken patterns. And I'm going to venture a guess that after they told you "you drink because you don't care about.." you didn't just go, "oh wow, yes, now I'm going to stop". You went to find out why you did so and how you can change. Which is my point. You keep saying "softball approach" vs. "blunt". But saying that an addict is an addict because they're an asshole is the softball approach. Like I said, it's the easy way.

Let me ask you a different question. Did you drink because you were an asshole or were you an asshole because you drank?

By the way; it very possible to break people. It's not even that hard to do to be honest.

We can deal with hugging

You have a really really weird take on therapy and the role of it in abuse.

No matter how bad my mood, no matter how awful the thing that happened was, I have no excuse for hurting someone else because of it.

And yet you did. And do. And by your account, will. That strikes me as a fairly naive view of what constitutes "asshole", "broken" and "therapy".

Think it's kind of funny that KingRat uses sweeping generalizations (BH are more upset by the sex, BW are more upset by the emotions, gag )to explain away sweeping generalizations.

To me, we talk about things like they are mutually exclusive, that to take responsibility we just have to cop to being selfish assholes. That really doesn't get you anywhere. You have to accept that you don't want to be selfish asshole, and learn what got you there and how you are going to get out. Then, you have to get out - and paradox of WS healing is that they have to shed their shame and become someone they love and respect. To me this takes a lot of time of living and thinking differently.

But I'd argue that "broken" is exactly the opposite of "copping to being a selfish asshole". If I'm "broken", well, maybe I was acting like a selfish asshole, but I wasn't actually one because <insert whatever "broke" me here>. It's a subtle difference, I agree, but I think it's different.

But when people use said 'brokenness' to be selfish shitbags then I kinda stop pitying them and kinda think they're assholes.

And that's pretty much my viewpoint on it too Ellie. You have PTSD from the war and suffer? Well, mate, you have my upmost admiration for your service and I'm happy to try to help you. You have my sympathy and respect, and I'm sorry you are where you are.

However, if you, same guy, with that PTSD, pick up a gun and shoot up a bunch of innocent people, you go from being a "damaged individual" to being an asshole. You're welcome to play the "damaged" card in court, but, if I'm the jury, I could really care less. And, as I type this, I think I just came to the realization in my mind as to "why" I care less. I don't care about your damage anymore because you damaged other people FAR WORSE than you personally were damaged. You're still alive, they aren't (in my example). And that, I think, is the essence of why "damaged" WS's get under my skin. OK, fine, you're damaged. How do you think your BS is doing? You have a pin prick compared to the gaping chest wound you knowingly inflicted on them! Your "damage" doesn't have standing compared to what you did to other people. Maybe you did that damage because of your own damage, or maybe you did it just because you're selfish or lack empathy, or perhaps your just an asshole. But does it matter anymore at that point?

What do you think would have happened if you walked into that first AA meeting and your mentor just said; "Well RIO, you drink because you're an asshole"

I probably would have laughed at him and said "I already know that, how do I fix it".

You went to find out why you did so and how you can change.

In my particular case, there was no "good why". From the previous discussion, I didn't have PTSD. My parents didn't beat me. I wasn't neglected. I made poor choices because I was emphasizing my personal pleasure over other people's. I cared more about myself than I did anyone else.

Let me ask you a different question. Did you drink because you were an asshole or were you an asshole because you drank?

In the beginning, I drank because it was fun. As it progressed, I would say I drank because I was an asshole, I stopped caring what my actions did to other people, and I centered my world entirely on me. I was an asshole when I drank too; but the decision to drink was a "f-the-world" statement by me. I knew it was going to end badly, and I did not care how it impacted other people, because my pleasure was more important. IDK what you call that, but I call it "you were an asshole".

By the way; it very possible to break people. It's not even that hard to do to be honest.

I agree with you. And I could lay out every transgression I can remember in my marriage prior to her A, and perhaps we can point to one thing, or perhaps all of them together and say "you broke her RIO". Might be true. Might also be a really good way for her to skate around saying "I was a POS and made poor decisions without regard for the damage it would do to other people". No, I don't think I "broke" her, I don't think she was "broken" at all, I think she was acting as a selfish child would as a full grown adult because it was "fun" and "felt good". IDK what you call that, but I have my own favorite term for it.

My situation is similar to Thumos.

After Dday 1, my WW said he pursued her. He treated her like shit after he got what he wanted. I wanted to beat this man, for this reason and others, thankfully I didn’t. My WW lied, she pursed him, and he just took what was easy then discarded her. Shitty thing to do as a human being, but she offers it up and he took it, can’t really fault him for that. He did mention, prior to them sleeping together, that he was worried about me coming after him. Dday 2 was me finding out she was the one pursuing him and that she had told him we were in an open relationship.

Was / is my WW “broken”, who knows. I do know she had terrible boundaries, low self esteem, body image issues, FOO issues, etc., that all factored in, but they weren’t the reasons she cheated.

When it comes to stereotypes, I think back about videos I watched on infidelity, right after Dday. A few were the Dr. Phil type daytime TV shows dealing with infidelity. What I saw was women on the show taking about their affairs and a lot of the women in the crowd nodding their heads in agreement with the WW. The same show, a man would come out and basically state the same reasoning and the audience had a very different reaction!

This is a massive generalization of course! However, societal norms seem to point to when a woman cheats, the husband has some culpability. When men cheat, we are simply dogs looking for sex.

My husband had absolutely zero culpability in my choice to cheat. As I’ve posted before, I could have been married to anybody, including someone in line for canonization to sainthood, and all other circumstances being equal I still would have had an affair with that particular OM. Any husband, any marriage, same end result.

As for the original post regarding gender stereotypes, men and women both have affairs for different reasons. I know of very few people IRL who have had affairs (I’m sure I know more, just not know OF) and they don’t all run down stereotypical “reason for the A” lines.

I myself was far more of the “because I wanted to, could, and didn’t care who it hurt” asshole, myself. Not broken. Just a selfish entitled jerk.

In the beginning, I drank because it was fun. As it progressed, I would say I drank because I was an asshole, I stopped caring what my actions did to other people, and I centered my world entirely on me. I was an asshole when I drank too; but the decision to drink was a "f-the-world" statement by me. I knew it was going to end badly, and I did not care how it impacted other people, because my pleasure was more important. IDK what you call that, but I call it "you were an asshole".

Yep, this is an exact description of my affair.

To be clear, I don't have any issue saying I was an asshole for doing that, and that I didn't care about anything but myself. That is absolutely true.

What I meant by my comment is admitting that is only the first step of many. I can clearly state it, but it didn't fix what was broken. That's why all the other stuff comes into play.

At the other end of it, I kind of lean more towards broken, but only because I have worked very hard to understand how all of it came to be and have changed many things about myself so I would never be an asshole (at least in that way again). The difference is self compassion. I would be concerned if the WS is too self compassionate early on. There should absolutely be pain and struggle and horror. I am not saying I don't still feel horror over what I did. But, coming out the other end of that processing, I lean more towards broken because shedding shame is important to become a healthier person.

A healthier person is a safer person. I am safer because I have learned to be kind to myself. I may never forgive myself for what I have done, but I have come to a point of acceptance, and self compassion. Without that there is no healing.

And yet you did. And do. And by your account, will. That strikes me as a fairly naive view of what constitutes "asshole", "broken" and "therapy".

What strikes me as naive is the idea that we are safe feeling pity for those who abuse while they're still abusing. When a very broken man who has had tons of trauma in his life beats his wife, we don't tell her to go home and be more understanding and empathetic towards this broken man. We aren't crying for the poor man who was so harmed that he became a person who is now endangering his wife's life and health. We reach out to help the woman escape. We use the law to try and prevent this man from being near this woman. We protect other people from this man who has become a dangerous asshole. There are always reasons for someone being an asshole. Childhood abuse, molestation, some are born sociopaths who had no choice. Some had tendencies towards not being a good person and early childhood development cemented their personalities in ways that cannot be fixed (narcissists and the like). Not everyone who hurts people is fixable. Once you've graduated from person who is struggling with being broken to person who is breaking others, you are the problem. You are not the victim anymore. The spousal abuser is not the one to be pitied. He or she is the one to leave for your own safety. Now if and when this abusive person has a moment of clarity and understands that he or she has hurt people and does not want to be the kind of person who does that, then you can come in with the therapy and the empathy. Until that point though, that is an unsafe person. You can spend years trying to tell such a person that you love them and they need to change, but I think this place is evidence enough that love and words don't change people. Consequences lead people to want change. How many people don't stop cheating until they get busted and have to deal with the consequences? How many spousal abusers just wake up one day and say "oh hey, that made him/her cry, I should be nicer"?

I understand therapy, but I also understand that abusers thrive on pity and empathy and kindness from others. They are not defeated by those things.