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I disagree with Dee sometimes (not often) in other threads but not here.

We don't tend to disagree on facts, lol. We disagree on semantics and other things. I happen to agree with you completely here.

whatisloveanyway...thank you for that reminder of the hand sanitizers . We travel a lot for my H's work...and stay in hotels while he does the project. I was using that stuff like crazy around the elevators...but quit that quickly when I found out about the methanol contamination. I am happy to see they are now safe for use again!

My H and I love to channel surf during a news event to note the difference in coverage from both sides. When I give Fox an extended listen, I understand the source of a lot of the fear because of the tone and frequency with which they cover a story.

My H and I do that too . Some of the anchors on Fox News make us cringe...we turn to a different news network when we see they are on !!!

60 Minutes ran a piece on breaking down divisive barriers between political adversaries by having them talk to each other and find the areas where they share common ground. I hope some of that happens here.

I didn't watch the 60 Minutes episode...but I have seen firsthand how talking respectfully to one another can calm things down to where productive conversations happen. We are literally ALL in this together...and it is much better to HELP each other .

I don't agree with censorship, but at some point it's also not reasonable to devote equivalent reporting to fringe concepts because it is fundamentally misleading to people who don't have the background to distinguish that. And that's harmful to people who are intelligent and want to make the best decisions for themselves, because it's intrinsically misleading.

I believe we can all agree that the fringe concepts are not what anyone on here is looking to see. But there are expert epidemiologists who are being suppressed and their concepts aren't considered fringe concepts. Thankfully their expert opinions are getting out despite the outrageous censorship .

Let's keep our passion, and let's keep our humanity, too. Covid evokes passion, but that doesn't mean it needs to evoke enmity, though I'm sure there's a word that fits much better here.

I totally AGREE with you on this .

When evaluating communications that come in to us, we really need to ask and answer questions like, 'What are they saying? Why are they saying it?'

YES SIR! I saw something really ODD when I went to the Louisiana Department of Health website today to look at the daily numbers and weekly percentages. I have been taking screenshots of them since this all started. The weekly percentage rates for unvaccinated people have been trending down. But the last figures we had were for 12/21-12/29. I didn't think too much of it last week when the percentages didn't come in because it was right after the holidays. But TODAY...the message on the website said...LDH is not updating breakthrough and parish and regional case data on 1/12/22. Breakthrough and parish and regional case data will be updated as soon as possible. I am really asking those questions you just stated in your quote!!!

I didn't think too much of it last week when the percentages didn't come in because it was right after the holidays. But TODAY...

My government website didn’t update their charts this week either. They updated everything else on the weekly report, just decided to leave last weeks numbers up for the unvaxxed/vaxxed stats. Our local media has quit talking about the unvaxxed as well, for now.

[This message edited by Loukas at 1:11 AM, Thursday, January 13th]

SO excited to share this... waste water data from Boston shows a sharp decline in COVID! 30-40% less this week than previous!

Could we be turning a corner??

Wow. When did or how did they decide to test waste water for covid? we are talking about sewage right?

Any decline in covid numbers is good.

Wheres the best place to get global covid numbers?

Wow. When did or how did they decide to test waste water for covid? we are talking about sewage right?

Utah started sending samples of certain locations to different labs in March 2020 already. Ohio started testing in June 2020. The CDC started a nationwide reporting system in September 2020.

Yes, we really are talking about checking untreated stuff right from people's bathrooms. I guess they can get samples merely hours after it leaves a person's...house.

They also need locations/towns where there aren't a lot of transients or vacationers who come from other places.

Nice bit of brainstorming for whoever came up with that. Thinking outside of the bowl, right?

SO excited to share this... waste water data from Boston shows a sharp decline in COVID! 30-40% less this week than previous!

That is GREAT news! My kid's college has been using wastewater testing since they reopened in 2020. It's highly effective because they can identify incipient outbreaks by dorm or apartment building and target testing accordingly.

I believe in questioning authority, but if we're asked to reject the majority opinion of trained medical professionals, we ought to be at least as stringent in our skepticism of the minority opinion. What monetary or other benefit may they be getting from promoting their views? One vaccine-hesitant person I know makes a seven figure living off essential oils, up at the tippy top of a MLM pyramid. She and her employer have a massive financial interest in promoting fear of the pharmaceutical industry. Everyone in her social media feed takes her word as gospel while she decries the majority opinion of epidemiologists. I think she truly believes what she's saying, but I don't think she understands what she's saying. She has no medical or scientific training with which to make the evaluation.

Idk how many people have heard this, but someone once launched a petition to ban dihydrogen monoxide. It's a corrosive chemical that is often added to packaged foods during the manufacturing process. In sufficient quantity, it can promote the growth of dangerous fungi and even prevent breathing. On learning this, many people signed in outrage, urging federal government to eliminate it from our food supply without delay.

Dihydrogen monoxide is water.

Anything can be made to sound dangerous. However, a chemist wouldn't make it through the first sentence of the petition without laughing. That's because they have the education and experience to understand the composition of the molecule. While all the specific allegations in the petition are technically accurate, the claim of danger to the food supply doesn't hold H20.

Title: Frogger

...because I feel like I've been playing Frogger with COVID since the get-go.

Tonight: HS-age son just got a neg COVID result (for now); he has a friend that just tested positive. DS is vaxxed, boosted, and masked (surgical, but not KN95--even though we have them and I urge them).

Recently: H (who works around large # of people and doesn't mask, and who has had 2 Vax doses, but not boostered) had a "bad cold"...ya, a "bad cold" I thought. Finally tested 3 times because his blood oxygen was in the low 80's. Neg on all 3 COVID tests, neg on influenza, no blood clots, no pneumonia. It was a bad cold that turned to bronchitis.
However, H & his Doc (and I) all think he likely DID have COVID back in Nov when he had his first "bad cold" and a negative COVID result. He was very slow to recover from that "cold" and lost his sense of smell.

In General: I'm a HS teacher in a school of 1100 students and about 100 staff. We are currently in a *"masks are highly recommended" mode with live instruction 5 days a week and with the vaccination rate among teens in my county at a bit under 50%.
*In practice, "highly recommended" results in about 30% of people in the building wearing masks.
I have 3 risk factors that make me more likely to have serious issues if I contract anything that might go to pneumonia or bronchitis...and, damn, I'm still raising 2 kids and would love to see that through.

The Mayo Clinic COVID map for my state has put my county in the dark burgandy range for the past week and my entire state (minus 2 counties) is predicted to go black in the next 2 weeks. (Darker colors on the map mean higher COVID rates.)

I live in a state that is suing the fed government about the vaccine mandates. Yet, our governor (who supports the lawsuit and who has canceled all state mask mandates months ago) tapped the National Guard to help support our overrun, understaffed hospitals.
So, a teaching colleague of mine (in a district that is struggling to cover teacher absences with subs) spent Oct-Dec supporting hospitals in our state. Necessary? Yes Inconvenient? Yes Bizzare that we are tapping the Nat Guard to support hospitals, but only "suggesting" preventive measures while our medical personnel are overworked and hospitals are being overrun? IMO, yes.

Like many people, everyday seems like a Frogger day at work to me.

So, me? Vaxxed, boostered, KN95 masked, and hopping back across the highway, hoping to reach the other side.

Side Note:
One poster on this thread said:

I feel that we're all participating in a huge experiment.

I think everything life throws at us--storms, wars, economic crashes--is a huge experiment for humanity. This one--a pandemic--is more "sciency." And that's difficult, because science is an ever-evolving discipline.

Do I distrust new medicines and worry about their unforeseen side effects? Hell, ya! I usually, seriously, tough it out and wait at least 5 years before I jump on a new drug bandwagon. But I did get the COVID vaccine, because, for me, the risk of getting COVID and it getting serious seemed more likely--thus, the greater risk. Now, I keep getting boostered for myself and to hopefully prevent some spread to others too.

Yes, we really are talking about checking untreated stuff right from people's bathrooms. I guess they can get samples merely hours after it leaves a person's...house.

Well thats just cool. I never would have thought the virus would be shed that way that it could determine how much a population is infected.

Is thr virus alive in waste water?

Im curious how long it could survive in that state. Since most areas here are on septic. And typical tank pumps happen every 3-5 years. could we be over this pandemic then see a resurgence in rural areas if septic workers come in contact with it?

They updated everything else on the weekly report, just decided to leave last weeks numbers up for the unvaxxed/vaxxed stats.

That happened in my state too. The daily figures are being updated daily...with the exception of Saturday and Sunday. The percentages usually come out every Wednesday. Yet it has now been two weeks since they last posted the percentages. Very weird. The first confirmed Omicron case in the United States was in late November of 2021. The percentages for the week of 11/25-12/1 stated that unvaccinated people accounted for 80% of positive cases...87% of hospitalized patients...and 87% of deaths. The last time percentages were given were for the week of 12/21-12/29. Those percentages showed that unvaccinated people accounted for 66% of positive cases...75% of hospitalized patients...and 74% of deaths. Still a vast majority...but definitely trending down. I am curious to see WHEN they will start posting the percentages again now that it looks like Omicron may be waning.

number4...this is AWESOME news...thanks for giving us the poop...I mean...the scoop !! I'm not anywhere NEAR as witty as Ariopolis ...but I try !!

It's highly effective because they can identify incipient outbreaks by dorm or apartment building and target testing accordingly.

THAT is pretty cool .

I believe in questioning authority, but if we're asked to reject the majority opinion of trained medical professionals, we ought to be at least as stringent in our skepticism of the minority opinion. What monetary or other benefit may they be getting from promoting their views?

I am not sure anyone is saying to REJECT the majority opinion of trained medical professionals...but there are qualified medical professionals with differing opinions who are being suppressed...and that makes me question that for sure.

I appreciate you talking about the monetary benefits. You had written to me about the CORBEVAX vaccine from India...thank you for that . I was looking it up the other day. As you said...it isn't patented...so the intellectual property is readily available to anyone. Pfizer and Moderna didn't do that. Now...I'm NOT saying they are doing anything nefarious...but these companies do GAIN by having their vaccines showing greater efficacy without also showing the adverse reactions that occur. Suppressing the voices of epidemiologists who DO have questions about these adverse reactions does make me question WHY.

Your statement about water...you are absolutely correct!! When someone comes out "claiming" this or that...they can readily be called out for FALSE claims. So WHY suppress certain epidemiologists who have a different opinion? Like that famous quote..."You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time." The truth WILL come out. By censoring qualified medical professionals that have a differing opinion...it only makes it more suspicious.

Dragonheart,

I have been getting my domestic and global covid overview from Johns Hopkins web site, which seems to be as accurate as I can find as well as the CDC and Reuters for the US. I monitor several states and counties, through their Dept. of Public Health sites. The data is not always good or as current as I wish; my old home state updates daily and monitors closely, while my new southern home state is pretty slow. I have no use for week old data when trying to decide what activities are safe enough for me at the moment. I like the Frogger analogy, or maybe Russian Roulette. People with sniffles trigger me right now, and my allergies have me sniffing non-stop. My first job out of college was a microbiology lab testing drinking water, waste water and sewage. I went from happy and clueless to life long germ phobe and risk mitigater. Covid has tied me in knots.

I find it very interesting how differently our countries are monitoring the information and contact tracing, although I know it varies by province and there has been some inconsistent messaging as the population pushes back against control measures. Things feel very made up as we go along here without a concerted effort to work together across agencies and states to make the best plan going forward. Not to mention our inability to find and communicate a consistent message.

As to sewage or wastewater testing, I used to do that for a while too, working in the surveillance dept. of a large city wastewater treatment plant. We kept automatic sampling barrels inside the manhole covers all over the city, and we collected them and reset every day. We didn't always test them but had them at the ready in case of an incident that needed tracing, especially industrial leaks that can shut the plants down by killing the bugs that break sewage down. I must admit, the grossest job I ever worked, next to hotel maid. But humans shed all kinds of traceable Bacteria, viruses and parasites that have been used to trace polio, hepatitis, giardia, flu viruses, roundworm, hookworm and on and on. For the life of me I cannot fathom why the CDC waited so long to start wastewater testing and monitoring for covid. Maybe the logic is that we are so transient it isn't helpful with containment. But this should have been a part of the daily monitoring because it catches asymptomatic and unreported infection, which is the real metric for predicting downstream medical and testing needs. Not too mention it would be good for people to know that Covid is in our waste, and public restrooms can be a source of infection. I never breathe while the toilet is flushing, I never use the hand air dryers either, and that was before Covid. Lifelong germ phobe, lol.

So many dropped balls in mitigating this pandemic. I'm so happy to read the Boston wastewater news, now I'm off to go fill my head with whatever other good news I can find today.

[This message edited by whatisloveanyway at 2:29 PM, Thursday, January 13th]

I will post the list that emergent8 started:

1. Covid is real (not a hoax).
2. Masks are effective at reducing the transmission of disease (not 100%)
3. Vaccines are effective at reducing the transmission of severe disease (not 100%)
4. The vast majority of people do not experience severe side effects from the vaccines.
5. Monoclonal antibodies are a treatment that can be effective at reducing the chance of severe illness in people who have already been infected. They are more effective in treating previous strains of Covid than they are in treating Omicron.
6. Unvaccinated people who get covid are significantly more likely than vaccinated people to get severe illness and require hospitalization.
7. Hospital resources are not unlimited and are already strained.
8. The more people that are infected with Covid, the more likely the virus is to mutate.
9. We do not know whether the treatments we do have against covid (vaccines, monoclonal antibodies) will be effective against new strains of the virus.

Here is the list I added...with the change that whatisloveanyway stated concerning alcohol (ethanol), isopropyl alcohol, or benzalkonium chloride (BZK):

10. Sunlight and alcohol kill the virus.
11. Most hand sanitizers approved for use contain alcohol (ethanol), isopropyl alcohol, or benzalkonium chloride (BZK).
12. Reducing the viral load can keep people from having to go into the hospital.
13. Most viruses tend to mutate to become more contagious but less deadly to the host.
14. Some vitamins can help boost the immune system.
15. New vaccines are being tested to combat the virus and not have adverse reactions that other vaccines have had.

I want to add to this list. PLEASE feel free to ADD something that can HELP us all to try and stay out of the overwhelmed hospitals.

16. Oral anti-viral mouthwash helps to reduce the viral load in the throat.

When someone comes out "claiming" this or that...they can readily be called out for FALSE claims. So WHY suppress certain epidemiologists who have a different opinion? Like that famous quote..."You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time." The truth WILL come out. By censoring qualified medical professionals that have a differing opinion...it only makes it more suspicious.

Because in the era of the internet, people don't believe the call-out, regardless of what proof you supply. In the analogy, I say "dihydrogen monoxide is water," and I get, "Well, that's your opinion," or "Of course someone with your education/background/demographic would believe that," or "that's what THEY want you to think," or just a laughing emoji. At a certain point, a fact is a fact and a lie is a lie. I don't have a problem with lies being censored.

whatisloveanyway

Thank you for such an informative post!!! I did not realize how prevalent disease detection was in waste water.

I totally get the germophone thing. When i was taking my Peronal support worker training we learned all about bugs, bacteria etc. One woman in class started bathing in bleach. She got 2nd degree chemical burns to her entire body.

Im not one to get grossed out easily. Wh farts will clear a room and make me gag. But a dead rat one of the snakes or lizards regurgitated doesnt so much bother me. I can smell death a mile away.

I'll probably be reincarnated as a turkey vulture lol.

Ok so how long can covid last in waste water? Is there anycincern regarding septic tanks vs sewage?

When someone comes out "claiming" this or that...they can readily be called out for FALSE claims. So WHY suppress certain epidemiologists who have a different opinion? Like that famous quote..."You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time." The truth WILL come out. By censoring qualified medical professionals that have a differing opinion...it only makes it more suspicious.

Who exactly are these epidemiologists that are being censored? What are their claims?

10. Sunlight and alcohol kill the virus.

To this I would add "Not 100%"

DH, thx for the laugh at the turkey vulture, I have the nose of a scavenger too. You live the farm life so you've got to have a strong stomach!

From what I've read, coronoviruses last 2-4 days in water or wastewater. Since septics are closed systems, a few days after the last contagion your system should be clear. As long as it's not leaking anywhere, not to worry. I have had families whose septic tanks or lines were leaking too near their well or into their groundwater source but that gets pretty obvious quickly with rampant diarrhea from e coli contamination, most notable in the babies and toddlers who are the most vulnerable.

But isn't it interesting there hasn't been much mention of ALL the ways humans share/shed the virus? I had surgery in October in a huge facility, and the nurse told me don't walk on the floor in your socks, they never wash them between patients, and you wear those socks in the ER. Many of the men do not wash their hands after they use the restroom, some of the women, but mostly the men, she added. I think of that all the time and have quite the mental dialogue to remind myself where contamination hides in public.

When we trained staff to work with radioactive materials, we held a training session and passed around a sign in sheet dusted with a trace amount of harmless glow in the dark powder. At the end of the meeting, a black light showed everyone and everything around them almost comically covered in the dust. The point was to remind us to stay vigilant with our safety and hygiene practices, and to show how quickly unseen contaminants spreads on and around people. Covid, common colds, the flu, giardia, pink eye, all manner of icky things are spread as easily. That's why gloves and handwashing. I had to relearn that all over again when I had kids and they brought home things I had never heard of from their classmates. Good times.

I read a study about the traces of drugs and e coli on our money and another about what is on our phones. We are not a handwashing culture, it seems. Bet there's virus potential there too. My nurse friends call Covid a sneaky fucker because it is so hard to hide from and they are tired of getting sick. However, a friend was exposed by a friend who did not disclose unvax status and also failed to mention was just getting over a cold. Omicron looks like allergies or a cold, so duh. Lots of downstream infections from that one, so all the care in the world can't protect you from one careless or uninformed person.

I need to go wash my hands lol!

As to being mislead by things online, anybody seem the deep fake Tom Cruise videos? They are so convincing, using a look alike actor and some CGI, they had me thinking for a few days he had gone off his rocker. Turns out they are being used as an example of how easy it is to fool people. All you need is a computer and a phone with a camera. It can be a full time job vetting information, let alone staying informed. But I like to think reason prevails where science is concerned, eventually the truth comes out.

[This message edited by whatisloveanyway at 6:13 PM, Thursday, January 13th]

HFSSC,

Something else that isn't mentioned much is that many disinfectants require a dwell time to kill the bugs. There is strict federal regulation here through the FDA with registration of the raw chemicals used to make products for disinfection and the claims a manufacturer can make about the product. The EPA has a great guidance resources on disinfection and decontamination, especially for public spaces, schools and hospitals. The staffing shortages make me wonder how hard hit the maintenance and housekeeping must be and how well we have been able to keep things clean.

For alcohol and ethanol, optimum concentration is 60%–90% solutions in water for about 30 seconds dwell time, the lower the alcohol the longer the time to kill. And for and BZK, classified as a quaternary ammonium compound, or QUAT, much lower concentrations and shorter dwell times. I'm not sure how long sunlight takes to kill a virus in the open, but it lives 2-4 days in water, so I'm guessing it's a function of how direct, how dry, how long..... and I've looked at the uv light sterilizers, but they just aren't practical for anything not small like a toothbrush.

I heard an interview with the author of The Great Influenza. He said he expected to find a lot more documentation than he did; his hypothesis was that the docs were working too hard to keep their notes current.

That may be at least one cause of late statistics on Covid.

One last thing, there's a lot going around right now. Flu and RSV are rising. RSV is really tough on the littles. Take care.