Hey Robert thanks for checking in on me I appreciate it.
I actually have a lot to post but it has been really busy these last few days. I keep editing the draft but never have the time to finish the post so here it is.
Thanks as always everybody for the amazing advice.
I will try to respond to some of your comments as well as your questions.
However before that, there are some updates to the situation.
I talked with my wife for probably 5 hours Thursday night when I confronted her. Then Friday for probably 6 hours. During that time, even though she seemed remorseful, something has been bothering me.
She is normally a very emotional person, and there has been almost no crying compared to what I would expect from the situation. The initial night I can argue that when she was caught in the lie, her fight responses were in overdrive making sure she wasnt caught. However the next day that we were talking, I expected more a of a emotional response from her. That never happed at all. I actually asked her about it. She said she didnt know why she wasnt crying.
There is the possibility that it is because she just wants out of the marriage, so it really isnt that big of a deal to her. However, even though I am not seeing things clearly because of my own emotions, I didn't feel like that was it.
I know her well enough, well actually let me rephrase that. I used to think I knew her well enough to know what was going on. Obviously I never really knew the real her.
In any case, I felt like she was probably hiding more secrets, and I wanted to know what they were. She kept promising there was not anything more. Me asking repeatedly wasnt turning up any more information. So I decided to take a different approach.
I have been telling her a divorce is on its way. Even if there is even the slightest option for reconciliation, I don't want to give her any hope.
I have been staying calm and cool through the process just like getting a job interview as was suggested. No raising my voice or being hurtful.
She has always been great about building up emotional walls since I have known her, even before we ever dated. I wondered if maybe the same thing was happening.
So I told her the affair was inexcusable which she agreed with. However I apologized and took some responsibility for the fact that the marriage requires both parties to work at it and I never did put in as much effort as I should have. Which is true.
I never did anything specifically bad to her, but during the hard times I was okay with the marriage reaching a mediocre level and never really worked as hard as I should to get us out of it. She had alot of abandonment issues from her parents when she was younger, and I know she is the type of person that needs alot of verbal affirmation, and I am not the type of person that is good at giving it. I would go through phases where I would try, but most of the time never was great at providing that. We had already discussed that in our counseling years ago. But I know she said during counseling all that time ago that she never felt like I was truly sorry for not putting in more effort.
So I dropped my pride and apologized for that aspect. I told her I was genuinely sorry for that aspect. I said that I had truly loved her during the marriage and it is very sad and unfortunate that because of her actions we are now going to lose everything we built.
Let me be clear. I in no way feel like the affair is my fault. That is not what I was apologizing for. I feel absolutely no guilt on my part for her choosing to cheat.
There is no justification for having an affair. None. I cannot stress that enough. If she wanted to fulfill her selfish desires then that is her choice, but she should have asked for a divorce first and not dragged myself and our children through this.
In any case, as soon as I apologized and gave her a hug it all broke apart. The tears started and didnt stop for awhile. I didn't console her and act like everything was okay. I just basically told her how dissapointing it was that she was willing to throw all of this away for selfishness.
She said nothing more to me at that point but it felt like things had changed. She seemed like she was even more conflicted which made me even more certain there was more.
I went to take a shower and left her alone with the conversation that we had had. I waited quite awhile to come back. So as soon as we sat down she said that she needed to talk to me. She said there was alot more she hadn't admitted.
Starting from the most recent here is what she said which is in addition to the 3 year affair with the massage therapist.
A few months ago she started having a sexual affair with one of her clients. They met up for sex 3 times at his house. She said after the third time she broke it off.
A year ago she had an emotional affair with another client, all through text. All leading up to a point where they were texting sexually explicit content to each other. She said the day after they got very explicit they both realized how innappropriate in was and stopped.
About 10 years ago she had another instance in which she and a client flirted during the loan she did for him, and that led to them flirting and being suggestive through text messages for awhile. She said it didn't get sexually explicit like with the other texter but it was definitely not something appropriate.
Additionally, before we were married and we had first started dating she had cheated on me with her ex, she also said additionally there was another guy in spain she had only kissed. For years after we were married I felt she was lying about the only kissing aspect. Honestly even though it was so long ago, it has eaten at me for years. The act doesnt matter at this point but the lie does. So she admitted she had sex with him multiple times.
Also not that this matters as much from a cheating point of view as we were not together, but she admitted she had sex with 3 different friends of mine in high school. The issue with that is during the time we started dating I asked her about her partners as we both went to a small private school together. She told me the people she had slept with and left those other guys out. So obviously not cheating, but a blatent lie.
Those are all the sexual aspects. Now on to the financial issues.
She admitted she had a credit card she had been using to buy extra things for herself on the side. Mainly stuff like getting facials, buying herself clothes etc. It wasn't a secret card in that she had it when we got married, but after the marriage she said she would stop using that card so we could have a joint bill.
She also loaned out $12,000 to her cousin with an eating disorder, so she could check into a rehab facility for awhile. That money has never been repaid as her cousin doesnt have the resources to attempt to do so.
Additionally she loaned out $4,000 to her brother for his divorce. That money has been repaid.
All of those were within the last few years during the sexual affairs.
I think that about covers everything that I can remember. It is hard to keep up with all of it.
Clearly at this point it is obviously she had some serious issues I never knew about. She was able to pathologically lie right to me for years.
All of this further complicates my emotional state. I know that I have no reason to believe that is this finally all of it, but yet I tend to think that is all. I had an instint there was more up to this point, but that instinct now tells me that is it, at least regarding infidelity.
She told me she did not tell me about the other affairs because she didn't want to lose the slightest chance we could work it out. She knew that if I knew about the others that there probably wouldn't never be an option to reconcile.
Again maybe I am just being naive, but I tend to believe that there isn't much reason she would hold back any other secrets. Especially because I am so beaten and kicked to the bottom of the hole that there isn't much more she do to me at this point. Unless she was hiding more money to try to leave, I can't see any reason she wouldn't tell me if there was more since we are already at this low. She couldn't do much more to me. And she told me about affairs I had no proof of, so I never would have known about them anyway.
LIke I said, I am not certain that there isn't more, but since this started I finally feel like that is all.
Based on all of the information so far I talked to her again about her feelings on all of this. She said she has no right to even deserve it, but she would like for us to work. If we go the divorce route she won't fight any of my demands.
I told her from a financial perspective, I plan on hiring a forensic accountant to verify all that she said. She had no problem with that.
I have already verified some of it. All of it so far seems legitimate but I would like the forensic accountant anyway.
We talked for probably 14 hours on Saturday during the course of all of the additional information. Things stayed civil for the most part. She initiated wanting to come clean to my family and apologize as well as her family. Sunday she spent the day visiting all the families and letting them know about all of the lies. We talked an additional 5 hours that evening. Then probably another 6 hours Monday.
During the course of all the conversations I have not had any more feelings about there being additional lies. I am not saying I am totally convinced, as clearly she cut up the bridge of trust and burned it to the ground. However I don't have that gut feeling like I did before.
Our only interactions have been during our meetings to talk as well as parenting the kids. I have been staying in a separate part of the house. I have not been in our bedroom with her.
So delving into the affairs, she said she never wanted any type of serious relationship with them. She said she just liked the attention and affirmation. She said all the I love yous they said were because he started them, and she just went with it. She also admitted it crossed her mind he may be using her because she was paying him for massages before they had sex. But she said she tried to ignore it.
Though she has been continually lying and I probably am too emotionally connected to have a an unbiased view, there are aspects of what she is saying that seem like there could be some truth to.
Unless I find otherwise, which I haven't yet so far they only met during work hours. The meetings varied through the years in frequency. It seems they would be every 1 to 2 to 3 weeks. Not really any consistent pattern. It seems to me if there was any more to the relationship they would have gotten together more freqeuently. She clearly had the ability to do so without me knowing but never did. Additionally, they never got together on weekends, or did anything together as a couple. Literally just met had a massage sex cuddle then on with the day.
The only client she had sex with was clearly for those reasons. They never seemed to have any interest in a relationship.
I felt like I was dealing with it pretty well until today when I was sitting in the waiting room waiting for an STD test, and it all hit me like a ton of bricks. Obviously I assume the emotions are going to be constantly changing.
In any case I got that done today. I have a meeting set with a divorce lawer on friday. I am trying to find a therapist I can visit as well. I am also trying to find a forensic accountant but haven't picked anybody yet. I am leaning towards not getting a paternity test done at least not now. My love for my kids will not be affected regardless of the outcome and to me they are my kids no matter what. But if the test came back that there weren't mine it would just make the pain that much harder.
Part of me really feels like trying to find a way to reconcile with her even though she doesn't deserve it. I am not rushing into that right now. I also am not giving her any indication that is an option. But the feeling is there. If I didn't have kids, that wouldn't be on the table, but having kids makes it harder for me. I know that kids are resilient. I know plenty of kids that have been through divorces and are doing great. But in a perfect scenario I would be able to find a way to make it work. I just don't know if that is possible.
A struggle for me too is even though part of me wants to make it work, I feel like if I ever made it work that she never really suffered enough. She got to satisfy her needs at the expense of the family for years, then she gets me back and life is good. I know it is not a good attitude, but I feel like if we reconciled I would always feel like she got the good deal while I suffered.I know that I would have to truly forgive her which is hard enough. Then there is the trust issue, which is clearly the elephant in the room.
Anyway thats where I am at currently with everything. I will try to answer some questions.
Read up on hysterical bonding. It's very real (something that humans are hardwired to do).
This is exactly what I have been experiencing and I have been trying not to have sex with her because I know that will mess with my decision making ability. But that is spot on with what I am feeling.
What does she claim was wrong in your marriage, besides her screwing the massage therapist for 3 years? What does she claim was lacking for her? Had you two ever discussed it? What did you think about the state of your relationship prior to her starting on the path of infidelity?
I will go into detail on this but sorry for the length and I hope I don't bore you all too much.
Our marriage was not perfect from the start. We had a phenomenal relationship as friends all the way from grade school into high school then college when we started dating. We had a great dating relationship for about 8 months. Then we broke up over the fact that she said she only kissed a guy in spain during the start of our relationship while she was there with some friends. I got into her email and found messages between her and her friends insinuiating they had sex. She said that was not true. I knew she was lying based on the what the emails, but they did not specifically say that had sex, thus I had no proof. Ultimately we got back together but things were never the same from that point. There were good times and bad but never great like they were.
I knew she was lying, but I also knew she wasn't telling me because she didn't want to lose me. She had huge abandonment issues from her childhood. We didn't really fight about anything specific, just stupid little stuff. I feel like there was constant tension because we were back together while just ignoring a lie. Being stupid kids we got married after another year of up and down dating. After getting married I would ask her throughout the years about the spain thing again but she always lied up until the other night when she came clean.
The marriage mirrored the dating. Up and down with no real specific thing that was the cause. She has always needed alot of verbal affirmations, compliments, good jobs etc. I know that is her love language. That was easy to do while we were in the good spot and the beginning of dating. But after the lie when things starting going up and down it just didn't come naturally to me. She was upfront that she wanted that to get better. I would work on it for awhile and then it would lapse. I would genuinely try, but struggled with doing it consistently probably because I had never really let go of her lying. Again, at this point were both stupid young kids in our early to mid 20s who should have never gotten married.
Additionally she always wanted sex more than me. I was fine with 1 or 2 times a week. She wanted 4 or 5. She was clear though that the bigger issue wasn't the sex, but the intimacy she got from it. That satisfied her affirmation and self esteem needs.
We both discussed divorce but it never really went anywhere.
As the years progressed, the marriage just became mediocre. We both decided we wanted kids and needed to work on things before we did that. We went to couples therapy. She let me know that alot of unhappiness came from not getting the verbal affirmations and the lower sex drive.
I worked on it and things and we agreed things were finally getting better. I stopped going to counseling while she kept going. Probably not the best move on my part but I thought I was doing good and didn't need it. She was okay with me quitting as long as I kept putting in the effort. I did for awhile however during the course of the pregnancy and after the birth of our daughter things started getting mediocre again.
I chalked it up to the fact that we now had the stress of raising a child. The fact that she worked until 8 to 9 oclock at night most nights leaving me with the newborn made me feel like I was always exhausted and I felt like a single parent. I hoped things would get better on their own as we adjusted. That never happened, and eventually we were right back where we started and time just passed. So about a year after the birth of our daughter is when the affair finally started.
In retrospect, I shouldn't have let things lapse into mediocrity. I know she would have liked me to go back to counseling with her. I should have just worked up the energy and dropped my stubbornness to do it.
I constantly would ask her to work less and told her that I would be happy if we made less money, but she has an all or nothing approach. She is a hard worker and can't say no to a deal. I respected that when we were younger, but I told her before we had kids that she had to change that, That never happened and I was pissed after we had kids that she didn't change and I felt totally alone as a parent.
Even right now as I type this it is almost 9:00 at night and she told me she has another hour of work. Meanwhile I am here with the kids who haven't seen mommy for more than an hour all day. For what it is worth, she is working from her home office, so I know she isnt out cheating. But as I said before work is a top priority for her and in my opinion she places the family in second place.
Ultimately I should have gone back to therapy with her when she asked after our daughter was born and voiced my frustrations to the therapist. Maybe a third party mediating could have kept this whole thing from happening.
Again I don't condone the affair. That is never something that can be justified in my opinion. I am not making excuses for that. I am just owning my responsibility with the other aspects of our marriage. I truly think I am a good guy and a great catch. I never feel like I did anything to really wrong her so to speak. I just think I didn't do the little things she needed for her love language. Probably a combination of being complacent and being upset that she never would tell me the truth about the cheating and sex she had in spain.
Additionally, we are both on opposite ends of the spectrum as far as cuddling, affirmations, compliments etc. She craves them and needs them more than anybody I have ever met. She agrees with that assessment. Whereas I have had no need to receive affirmations etc. During the initial 8 months we dated when things were great, we managed to somehow meet in the middle without having to try. But after the lies started it just became difficult.
And I’d venture a guess that any issues you had the last 3 years were BECAUSE SHE WAS CHEATING and not any other reason.
See above but yes the last 3 years our relationship got way worse and I have no doubt it was because she was having the affairs.
What does appear objectively obvious is that you’re dealing with a spouse that has the ability to lie like a sociopath
Agreed and that is what is so concerning to me as far as ever being able to reconcile. She clearly can lie better than I ever thought. She seems like she has no remorse when she does it.
Keep this card in your pocket until after the D is final, then report him.
Yeah good idea with that. I don't plan on going after him quite yet.
Did you ask her whether she bought gifts for him? Did she ever say who the clothes were for, and the bed sheets, for example? The money stuff is sketchy. She told you in the initial confrontation that she was divorce planning and the withdrawals were for that purpose, but the timing of them -- periodically, regularly, corresponding with the gigolo sessions -- suggest she could have been gifting him money. There is a term often used here: "financial infidelity." It's another form of infidelity that often leads to divorce. From my view, your WW was unfaithful sexually, emotionally, and financially. Not just unfaithful, she was secretly divorced from you in terms of emotions and sex, and was getting her cards lined up to divorce you legally and financially.
Yes she admitted the clothes as well as the bedsheets were for him. Yeah honestly I think he was just using her. He had a sweet gig in his mind. Get a regular paying massage client plus free sex in addition. Yes absolutely agree she was unfaithful sexually emotionally and financially.
As to you, please focus on your health at present. These circumstances can be hard on a person. One tends to loose weight, which isn't always a bad thing but there was a BH on here a while ago who passed out one day from lack of food and dehydration and suffered a pretty bad knock on the head. So be sure to hydrate, exercise, eat regularly, and stay off the booze.
Thanks great advice about that. I already have some health issues I have gotten over the last year I think are from the stress of this and struggle with that. Ive been noticing I will go the whole day and not eat. I am already losing weight. I will be more diligent about making sure that I stay on that.
iceman, try to keep in mind that this woman in front of you is not the woman you thought you were married to.
Yeah you are right I keep getting more surprised every day by that fact.
Ice please do NOT tell your wife that you intend on going after this massage therapist that she's been fucking for the past three yrs (reporting him). There are some crazy people out there and who knows what he'd do if he was backed into a corner and could lose his livelihood.
Not planning on telling her if I do. Yeah the crazy people aspect makes me a little worried. I want to make him pay, but I also have kids and dont want a retaliation situation. Not really sure what I will do. I have actually thought if I didn't turn him in, and somehow a reconciliation were to happen, that my wife would have to agree to proceed with pressing charges against him. That would make me know she is not protecting him and is giving up that relationship. Not happening now, but the thought crossed my mind.
And yes have her apologize to the entire family for her huge betrayal, it helps with remorse and may be beneficial to an eventual D settlement. Was the 155k on the other acount like she claimed ?
Yes she has apologized to family. She actually did it on her own without my prodding. Yeah the 155k was on the other account. I am making sure my name gets put on the account. I haven't been able to find any other missing money at this point but will try to get a forensic accountant to confirm.
It sounds like your WW was exchanging ego kibbles (how beautiful she is etc...) fox sex gifts and money. She was probably in love with him... and he’s just using her.
Agreed
So, in a way, what your WW is doing is incredibly human and also incredibly dishonest. It doesn’t make her the worst person ever created. But it does leave you with certain knowledge. You now know: 1.) She can lie to your face. 2.) She can offload guilt to the point you don’t notice her having any of it. 3.) She can take advantage of you for what you bring her. This leads to the conclusions that, in the future: 1.) You don’t really know what she is thinking. 2.) You won’t be able to detect if she is telling you the truth. 3.) She has no qualms about doing something horrible for an extended period of time so long as it suits her needs. The issue then becomes, is a relationship sustainable? I’d argue that she cannot change those aspects of herself – they’re inherent.
This is really something I totally agree with you about and have been struggling with. I tend to normally always feel that people have a difficult time changing things that have been so hardwired. I am not saying it never happens, but I tend to think it somewhat of a rarity. This is something that makes reconciliation seem like it may be very difficult to achieve.
Confused on this point because you wrote that you read all sort of hotel type sneaking around. That they planned to enter at seperate times and to make sure the door was unlocked. If they were just "expanding" her appointments this seems a little excessive.
Yeah I never did clarify that with her. I didn't actually go back to compare those specific texts to the affair dates. I know they started the affair in the massage studio then supposedly moved back to his house. So I don't know whether those texts correspond with when they were at the studio with other clients there. I need to do some digging when I have time to verify.
Can you prove the apt is next to the hotel? It only matters in the is she telling the truth or making things up like the "better interest rate" lie (IMO) Savings accounts pay next to nothing % rates, all of them. Sounds a little shady. Ask her how much she has given Eric. The FA may find a very different amount.
Honestly havent checked on the location but I should do that. Yeah I found that suspect about the interest rates. She claims she doesn't have an exact amount. She said she would only get massages some of the time. She said she would buy packages then gradually use them. I personally estimate she spent close at least $10,000 possibly up to $15,000. That will be something I want to talk with the forensic accountant about. Though it may be difficult with it being all cash I dont know.
Ice please read (and reread) Waggingthedog's last post. Let it sink in!! I've been coming to SI for about six years and this may very well be the most insightful post I've come across. Thanks Wagging for sharing it. In my humble opinion it should be pinned to the top of Just Found Out and every newbie that comes here should read it.
That was a great post wagging. Thanks for taking to time to write so much really great information.I really appreciate you doing that.
Iceman, what kind of personality does your wife have? Is she the type who always needs to be right, always in charge? My XWW thought she was always the smartest person in the room and as a high school teacher she often was, but not among adults. It seems like she is a workaholic breadwinner in the family and she is also financing her BF/boyandgirltoy massage business. Both of those situations may give her a feeling of control and superiority over 2 of the men in her life. If there is a major discrepancy in income that can have some ripple effects.
She is stubborn. She like to act like she is tough and doesn't care about what others think. Deep down however she is really hard on herself with low self esteem. Yes she is a total workaholic though I feel like she does it to escape from having to deal with any negative thoughts she has. Thus why I think she started working even more after we had kids and the affair started. She didn't want to deal with the problems so that is her release.
The decision to R or D is yours to make. I sense that you're leaning toward D. Sometimes minds change and that's okay. If you do decide to R I suggest you need to know all the dirty details so there is no sudden new reveal and reset some time down the road. Even years. Deciding to D is a perfectly valid decision.
Thanks yeah I lean towards D but part of me really wants to find a way I could make R work since we have kids. Yeah the dirty details make it hurt so much worse, but I tend to agree which is why I have been asking for them. Who knows whether R will happen but I feel like I have to know.
Ask her if she ever spoke to an attorney about the impact that divorce would have on her? If she did, she probably found out that with a stay at home dad she looses big time in terms of money and access to the kids. That may explain why she 'prefers' to stay married. And is something you need to verify.
According to her, she got the money out in case she needed it but she supposedly had not contacted an attorney yet. She claims it was because she was planning on having a talk with me telling me we had to either fix the marriage or divorce. She was worried if I chose divorce and it got bad that she would have money in case the assets were frozen. That being said, she told me she did contact an attorney a few years ago. Not sure sure if the affair was happening then. But she actually had a preliminary meeting with the attorney. She started crying during the meeting. He told her that based on the way she was acting and what he had seen with his clients it did not seem like she was ready for a divorce yet. She decided not to proceed. That is what she said about that meeting.
The sine qua non of cheating is character. Millions of married people have body images, or mid-life crises, or merely experience the ebbs and flows of normal marriage, without choosing to have sex with somebody outside of the marriage. The operative word is "choice". Your wife chose to do this, out of all of the things she could have chosen. It speaks to her character. Do you really want to spend the rest of your life with somebody who has exhibited this level of character?
Absolutely. Totally agree. That is why I in no way feel there was any justification for cheating. Yeah I don't want to spend my life with anybody that has even a fraction of that type of character in them. It would only be possible to reconcile if then she could somehow change her core character, which is why I struggle with how R could work. Because that would not be something that can easily be changed.
That is a huge load of bullshit! She was crying during a massage? Then he kissed her, complimented her, and then took her hand and placed it on his dick? DO NOT BELIEVE THAT! Your wife is not Little Bo Peep. You can be pretty sure that she was sending this dude pretty strong "available signals" before he moved in on her. I would guess that she was more the aggressor since she had to go seek him out in order to have contact with him. SHE MANIPULATED YOU WITH THAT STORY.
Yeah I actually did get an update on that with some of her new information. She said the initial meeting she cried when he touched her because she hadn't felt those emotions in so long claiming we were in a bad place so she really didn't feel that connection from me. She said she liked the touch knowing it was wrong and kept getting massages. He gave her his number. They started flirting via text. Eventually during getting the massage he did the kissing as well as did the crotch grab thing. But she admitted they had been opening flirtging via text but it never was anything more until he did that. So yeah she had a part. But I do think somebody in his position with a medical license shouldn't make the initial move with an unclothed female client in the vulnerable state there were in
She spent (conservatively) 20,000 dollars of your marital assets on this man. Despite what she is claiming, she paid this man for sex for three years. Do you seriously think he did even one thing that your wife didn't really want him to do to her? She paid the guy! She showered him with gifts! Believe me, she's not the victim. I mean, he's not either, but she surely isn't.
Yeah agreed she totally had a part and I don't feel bad for her. I just feel like he was wrong in the way he pursued her during a massage. But yes she was certainly not innocent. It just shouldnt have started physically the way it did.
