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This argument about the "mainstream" and how it's bad to accept what is widely known...that one I can't ever understand. If most educated scientists believe something to be true, it's probably true. This isn't a Galileo situation where you're imprisoned for speaking of the earth rotating around the sun. This is a more enlightened age of science. If a scientist comes along with studies that can be replicated and changes how we view this virus, the "mainstream" will then be what that scientist discovered. If you've been watching these past couple of years, you've seen that happen as more information comes to light about COVID. Anyone who comes at you with "the powers that be don't want you to know this" are almost always either deluded or selling you something. They have an agenda that isn't about facts and knowledge. This isn't a disaster movie where the one scientist in the world has the answer to keep us all alive but no one will listen to him. If we go so far down the uncertainty of any kind of knowledge, we might as well just believe we're all living in the matrix and nothing is real. If meteorologists say there's an 80% chance of rain, it's probably best to prepare for rain. Hey, it might not happen, but that doesn't make them wrong. They gave you the odds. That doesn't make meteorology trash science.

If I get a diagnosis from a doctor, I might get a second opinion. If that doctor agrees, I could go get a third opinion. But see, by the time your 50th opinion doctor says what you want to hear, that isn't likely to be the right answer. The other 49 are probably right. You just asked enough doctors until you found one that made you feel better emotionally. No one sells toothpaste with "1 out of 10 doctors recommends Crest". Know what I'm saying?

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 10:34 PM, Tuesday, January 11th]

I don't think worndown is wrong and his post was very well written except for telling people to STFU.

Want2B asked people to be respectful and that is neither respectful or helpful. I understand being frustrated but telling people to STFU is not the way to get people to open their minds.

I get that too, but I guess it's just that people are actually getting really sick and dying. It's harder to police one's own tone when that is what the discussion is about, particularly if you're involved in seeing it happen. I couldn't have come near this discussion a few months ago after losing my former SIL who made some of the arguments I've seen here. Hell I couldn't have come near it numerous times in the past couple of years. This isn't a disagreement about something trivial. This is a disagreement about something that has put people we love in the ground. It's hard.

Trust me dee, I hear you. I have family and friends in health care and have seen first hand the toll this has taken on them.

By way of background, I am double vaxxed (I'll get the booster as soon I'm eligible - fingers crossed by the end of this month). We have two children (3.5 and 1.5) who are both unvaccinated because there is no vaccine eligible for children that young. I'm not a medical expert and as such, I trust those who are experts in their fields. I keep my circle small, I avoid crowds, I mask.

Despite assiduously following all the recommendations, my eldest daughter caught covid (Delta) last August during an outbreak at her preschool (a pandemic of the unvaccinated - quite literally). The baby had symptoms too but tested negative (we assume false negative). Eventually my double vaccinated husband had a super mild breakthrough infection (you cannot isolate from sick toddlers). Despite caring around the clock for two tiny humans who cried in my arms and coughed in my unmasked face as I held them while trying to comfort them when they could not sleep, I managed to avoid it.

My daughter's preschool now makes masks mandatory for the kids while they are indoors, and do you know what? The kids do it - no problem. Are they perfect? No. Do the masks sometimes slip down below their little noses? Yes (trust me, it is very hard to find masks small enough for faces that little - especially because of how readily they are lost). Three and four year olds happily take precautions to keep one another safe that grown adults are not willing to take. That (and many things about this pandemic) wears on me.

I find having a debate on this subject can be difficult because it can be difficult to know what we are dealing with - what the issues are. If the conversation is to be productive and we are not going to speak in circles, can we make a list of things that we agree upon so that we can narrow the issues?

I would propose the following as a start:

1. Covid is real (not a hoax).
2. Masks are effective at reducing the transmission of disease (not 100%)
3. Vaccines are effective at reducing the transmission of severe disease (not 100%)
4. The vast majority of people do not experience severe side effects from the vaccines.
5. Monoclonal antibodies are a treatment that can be effective at reducing the chance of severe illness in people who have already been infected. They are more effective in treating previous strains of Covid than they are in treating Omicron.
6. Unvaccinated people who get covid are significantly more likely than vaccinated people to get severe illness and require hospitalization.
7. Hospital resources are not unlimited and are already strained.
8. The more people that are infected with Covid, the more likely the virus is to mutate.
9. We do not know whether the treatments we do have against covid (vaccines, monoclonal antibodies) will be effective against new strains of the virus.

That seems like a good starting point. I don't think there should be anything particularly contentious there.

Her husband, who is the light of her life, is now going into his third week of hospitalization with COVID. In the first week, her posts were all stunned terror and requests for prayers. In the second, they shifted to a loud protest that vaccination wouldn't have helped because "COVID follows no rules." Now it's just silence.

She broke her silence today. Her husband didn't make it.

Oh that is so sad. How awful.

Ok, back from working my second day with active COVID. I haven't gone in any immune compromised patient rooms and got our rounds to be moved from the tiny provider room to a larger staff area. No more symptoms other than being utterly exhausted at the end of the day. I get to test tomorrow (day 5) to see if I can switch from wearing a N95 to a KN95 all the time. (N95 are worn for all patient encounters and certain floors, KN95 at all other times). I have a private office, so I can eat there. Others in my position have to eat in their cars.

We have 3 ICU units right now. Our main/original ICU unit is 24 beds. 20 COVID. Of those COVID patients, 75% unvax'd. Of those pts that are vac'd, none were boosted. I got sidetracked, but the first 3 intubated vaccinated COIVD pts had combinations of COPD/CHF/obesity/DM. 55% of our patients in our hospital right now have COVID. While not all came in for COVID, the vast majority did. At one point we had 17 intubated patients in our ED waiting for ICU beds. And yes, people are dying. No idea what the variant numbers are in my area.

My uncle passed away from COVID today. Vaccinated but 95.

I am tired, tired, tired. But at least I'm not scared like we were last year before the vaccine. But very close to being done.

MangledHeart..thank you .

If I get a diagnosis from a doctor, I might get a second opinion. If that doctor agrees, I could go get a third opinion. But see, by the time your 50th opinion doctor says what you want to hear, that isn't likely to be the right answer. The other 49 are probably right. You just asked enough doctors until you found one that made you feel better emotionally. No one sells toothpaste with "1 out of 10 doctors recommends Crest". Know what I'm saying?

This isn't what MOST people are talking about in regards to second opinions. I have gone for second opinions...not because I wanted a doctor to tell me what would make ME feel better...but to see if there are any other OPINIONS from experts in this field. If I wouldn't...I would have had unnecessary surgeries. I am FAR from being a medical specialist...but I am a fairly intelligent person...and that is why I like to look at other perspectives before deciding on which path is the one I will take.

This argument about the "mainstream" and how it's bad to accept what is widely known...that one I can't ever understand.

I don't get how people don't understand this. In the United States we saw for ourselves how mainstream media LAUDED over the practices of a person whose decisions CAUSED people's deaths. They demonized another person's decision that thankfully SAVED people. IF we would have accepted what mainstream media was telling us...even MORE people would have died. Thank God that other countries are NOT listening to this careless mainstream media and are actually following the science.

It's harder to police one's own tone when that is what the discussion is about, particularly if you're involved in seeing it happen.

I think it is safe to say that ALL of us have been involved in seeing our loved ones...or ourselves...having to go through the effects that this virus has caused. It made me so SAD to see people's loved ones die . I have had my H...my children...and other family and friends having to deal with getting the virus.

I asked my doctor for options IF I ever caught the virus. I am very GRATEFUL that my doctor did NOT tell me that if I caught the virus...to go home and wait it out. She gave a solution...and if not for that...I may not have some of my loved ones here today. I wrote about what she told me about the monoclonal antibodies EVERYWHERE...even on here. The monoclonal antibody treatments WORKED and I have not had one friend or family member pass because of it.

BraveSirRobin ...that is sad .

I am tired, tired, tired. But at least I'm not scared like we were last year before the vaccine. But very close to being done.

(((HUGS)))

million pieces...I found out yesterday that the family member of the friend I was talking about the other day...who went into the hospital for a non-Covid issue...but tested positive for Covid...is NOT in an isolation room . They had been fully vaccinated but not boosted. They have no symptoms. Their spouse is going to see them every day...spending all day in the room...then going home. They also aren't showing symptoms...and are fully vaccinated but not boosted. They are walking in the hospital...going in the elevator...masked...but around people who aren't aware that they just sat with their Covid positive spouse all day . Several of our local hospitals are not up to functioning like they were before Hurricane Ida...but I always thought that Covid positive patients were not put with patients who weren't positive. I also thought they did NOT have visitors!!! Is this happening at your hospital? I was SHOCKED to find that out!!

Oddly...our state has gone almost 2 weeks without showing statistics of how many unvaccinated people have tested positive...been in the hospital...or have died. They do keep showing the numbers though which are HIGH for hospitalization...but the people on ventilators...and those who have died have thankfully not gone as high. I am hoping it was just because of the holidays and that these statistics are going to come out today.

My uncle passed away from COVID today. Vaccinated but 95.

My deepest condolences on your loss .

I don't get how people don't understand this. In the United States we saw for ourselves how mainstream media LAUDED over the practices of a person whose decisions CAUSED people's deaths. They demonized another person's decision that thankfully SAVED people. IF we would have accepted what mainstream media was telling us...even MORE people would have died. Thank God that other countries are NOT listening to this careless mainstream media and are actually following the science.

This may be where we live in different realities because I don't know what you're talking about.

I also was talking about mainstream science, not media. I am going to assume this is a CNN vs FOX debate and I doubt we can go anywhere with that here. I'm sure we both think one of those is utterly irresponsible and I doubt we think it's the same channel.

My uncle passed away from COVID today. Vaccinated but 95.

I'm so sorry you lost your uncle.

emergent8...I am very surprised that I haven't contracted Covid either...yet. I don't believe it is a matter of IF...I feel it is a matter of WHEN. I am still going to TRY to not get it though .

I LOVE your list...that is a GREAT baseline to start from !!

1. Covid is real (not a hoax).
2. Masks are effective at reducing the transmission of disease (not 100%)
3. Vaccines are effective at reducing the transmission of severe disease (not 100%)
4. The vast majority of people do not experience severe side effects from the vaccines.
5. Monoclonal antibodies are a treatment that can be effective at reducing the chance of severe illness in people who have already been infected. They are more effective in treating previous strains of Covid than they are in treating Omicron.
6. Unvaccinated people who get covid are significantly more likely than vaccinated people to get severe illness and require hospitalization.
7. Hospital resources are not unlimited and are already strained.
8. The more people that are infected with Covid, the more likely the virus is to mutate.
9. We do not know whether the treatments we do have against covid (vaccines, monoclonal antibodies) will be effective against new strains of the virus.

Some other statements that I would feel are non contentious:

10. Sunlight and alcohol kill the virus.
11. Most hand sanitizers contain alcohol.
12. Reducing the viral load can keep people from having to go into the hospital.
13. Most viruses tend to mutate to become more contagious but less deadly to the host.
14. Some vitamins can help boost the immune system.
15. New vaccines are being tested to combat the virus and not have adverse reactions that other vaccines have had.

An excert from a Forbes article:

Compounds in cannabis can prevent infection from the virus that causes Covid-19 by blocking its entry into cells, according to a study published this week by researchers affiliated with Oregon State University. A report on the research, "Cannabinoids Block Cellular Entry of SARS-CoV-2 and the Emerging Variants," was published online on Monday by the Journal of Natural Products.

The researchers found that two cannabinoid acids commonly found in hemp varietals of cannabis, cannabigerolic acid, or CBGA, and cannabidiolic acid, also known as CBDA, can bind to the spike protein of SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes Covid-19. By binding to the spike protein, the compounds can prevent the virus from entering cells and causing infection, potentially offering new avenues to prevent and treat the disease.

The entire article goes into depth about how this is helpful, how it works etc. Goes to show that alternative treatments are being researched etc. Of course im not about to go get high if i test positive for covid lol. Though i imagine many people will...

This may be where we live in different realities because I don't know what you're talking about.

I can't go further without it getting political...but I am surprised that someone wouldn't know what I was writing about. I can say that it has been known from the beginning of this that the elderly were particularly vulnerable to Covid.

I also was talking about mainstream science, not media.

Thanks for your clarification. Mainstream science is GOOD...but in MY case...my family can't go along with what the mainstream science is saying. Thankfully there are epidemiologists who are looking into all factors. This isn't a blanket situation where everyone can be helped by doing what mainstream science says to do.

I always thought that Covid positive patients were not put with patients who weren't positive. I also thought they did NOT have visitors!!! Is this happening at your hospital? I was SHOCKED to find that out!!

We only have double occupancy rooms in our observation unit and we don't mix COVID/non COVID patients in those rooms. But all floors at my hospital have COVID patients except Oncology. We tried to separate units/floors at the very beginning of this mess, but too many patients.

Visitors for COVID patients started in our system in November. 1 person per pt, per day. It was honestly to help the staff out with care in addition to making families/patients happy. Not everyone was OK with that decision as some family member are more or less helpful than others. Some even add to the burden, and even sometimes you have family fighting over being the one person allowed a day.

Tested positive again this morning, so I have to continue to wear a n95 for the full 10 days. When I asked the nurse in occupational health about the science about this policy she said who in the hell knows

I just ran up 6 flights of stairs double masked (n95 +surgical) while COIVD+. (Avoiding elevators also). Pretty sure there was no lack of oxygen

million pieces...thank you for that . I am saddened to see you have Covid again though! I had no idea that healthcare workers were allowed to work with patients when they were positive for Covid. Where my H works...they sent people home for just being exposed to it last week. Thankfully when they took their tests yesterday...ALL were negative . Healthcare workers don't have that luxury though...and y'all are truly HEROES!!

Were you double masked because you have Covid...or do you regularly double mask?

Running up 6 flights of stairs is impressive...Covid positive or not !!

W2BHA, I'm in the chemical business and hand sanitizer is one of the products I manufacture. They are registered and regulated by the FDA, and although the party line is soap and water hand washing is the best defense, hand sanitizers containing alcohol (ethanol), isopropyl alcohol, or benzalkonium chloride (BZK) are approved for use.

In the peak of the first wave, the industry was in turmoil and the FDA relaxed the very long and involved registration approval process to allow idle distilleries to divert their alcohol into hand sanitizers. That is no longer happening, but due to the lack of oversight, sketchy or inept manufacturers made products with toxic methanol contamination, which is absorbed through the skin and can cause blindness and death. Most of those contaminated products came from Mexico or outside the US, and the FDA maintains a list of the recalled products. Since I make the stuff with BZK that is what I use, because the alcohol products are runny and harsh on my skin. I have to remind myself to stay vigilant about contact disinfection of hands and surfaces, though, because I am so geared toward avoiding aerosolized contamination. It has been hard for us all to stay vigilant for so long now. Complacency creeps in and I catch myself making mistakes often.

DragonHeart I am very interested in the CBDA and Vitamin D studies that show some promise in helping to stop the virus from binding. I take supplements for both every day, but I'm certain my germ-phobe personality keeps me safer than them, but they can't hurt so why not. I can find CBD, CBN and CBDA products for sale legally, as they don't contain THC, so you don't have to get high but I'm all for a preventative that makes you happy too. :)

Devastated Dee, I'm also missing the reference about the mainstream media. I scan ALL the news, Fox, CNN, BBC, NPR, Networks, you name it, plus my online news aggregators and my international news feeds, but I find the US television news to be barely worth my time. My H and I love to channel surf during a news event to note the difference in coverage from both sides. When I give Fox an extended listen, I understand the source of a lot of the fear because of the tone and frequency with which they cover a story. I like to check in and see what both sides are fighting over or disagreeing on, but I can't even get invested because I find the journalism lacking. My WH made me watch the Newsroom series last night and I couldn't believe how timely it felt, with the pressure to vet breaking stories and sources and the responsibility to get the story right before putting it on the air, not to mention the decision about what to air, what was newsworthy for the publics best interest. It was a little depressing. Also, my dual citizenship US Canadian friend has commented several times that coming back to the US and watching the news in the states is anxiety inducing. It's inflammatory, divisive and sensationalized relative to the news across the border. I agree. I tune in to BBC just for the calm demeanor and professional reporting.

millionpieces, I'm sorry for your loss of your uncle and offer hugs and hope for you. I can't imagine what working in a large hospital must be like. I follow a Dr. and wonderful writer at Grady in Atlanta and her reports mirror yours. So many hospitals are in diversion now, with no beds, no staff if there are beds and they are working so hard and so close to burn out. It is horrifying to watch unfold, predictably, like this, with not much to be done but offering thoughts and prayers and to keep hoping for the virus to run its course.

As to the forum guidelines, I am a bit tunnel visioned and clueless by nature and am trying to be respectful and not cross the line. Often I'm not sure who is being chastised for what by admins, but wanted to say I think our hearts are in the right place, and hope this informative thread keeps going. 60 Minutes ran a piece on breaking down divisive barriers between political adversaries by having them talk to each other and find the areas where they share common ground. I hope some of that happens here. I know some of us science geeks can come off as rude or insulting but that often comes with the territory or the personality, and I don't think it is as intentional as it might seem. Also wanted to say that in my healing reading, I learned that my anger is most often rooted in the frustration at not being heard. I think a lot of that is happening everywhere too. Thanks to all who take the time to share and to listen here.

Devastated Dee, I'm also missing the reference about the mainstream media. I scan ALL the news, Fox, CNN, BBC, NPR, Networks, you name it, plus my online news aggregators and my international news feeds, but I find the US television news to be barely worth my time. My H and I love to channel surf during a news event to note the difference in coverage from both sides. When I give Fox an extended listen, I understand the source of a lot of the fear because of the tone and frequency with which they cover a story. I like to check in and see what both sides are fighting over or disagreeing on, but I can't even get invested because I find the journalism lacking. My WH made me watch the Newsroom series last night and I couldn't believe how timely it felt, with the pressure to vet breaking stories and sources and the responsibility to get the story right before putting it on the air, not to mention the decision about what to air, what was newsworthy for the publics best interest. It was a little depressing. Also, my dual citizenship US Canadian friend has commented several times that coming back to the US and watching the news in the states is anxiety inducing. It's inflammatory, divisive and sensationalized relative to the news across the border. I agree. I tune in to BBC just for the calm demeanor and professional reporting.

I don't even have cable and don't watch any of the networks, so I'm probably missing some fear-mongering and drama. I miss out on some of the talking points and such and am probably much better off for it. Newsroom was worrisome to watch, wasn't it?

I can't go further without it getting political...but I am surprised that someone wouldn't know what I was writing about. I can say that it has been known from the beginning of this that the elderly were particularly vulnerable to Covid.

If you're referring to a governor who pretty much sucked, I do know what you mean. It took me a minute. Given how inflammatory this has become, it seems like everyone has been accused of killing people at this point, lol.

The baseline issue that I have trouble understanding is how laypersons believe they have the ability to make informed decisions about expert recommendations.

Laypeople don't have the technical expertise to know what we don't know, and that's true about any field. I could tell you about a situation in mine, and you could have questions that sound absolutely plausible but are so far off base as to be laughable, since you don't have the background to understand.

At some point, I think it's important to realize that there is simply not enough time to learn everything we need to know for all the different areas of expertise in the world. So if you don't defer to people who HAVE the education and experience in that field, how exactly are you making your "informed decision"?

Just because there are two (or more) sides of an issue does not mean that those sides are equal, or even close to it, and that's a big problem when it comes to the media. In the interests of "balance", they often showcase two positions to contrast, but that presents the illusion that both could be reasonable, when as is often the case, one side is not.

I don't agree with censorship, but at some point it's also not reasonable to devote equivalent reporting to fringe concepts because it is fundamentally misleading to people who don't have the background to distinguish that. And that's harmful to people who are intelligent and want to make the best decisions for themselves, because it's intrinsically misleading.

At some point, we need to trust the experts. There is not even close to a reasonable split of experts here in terms of the best way to respond to covid. It's not 50/50. It's not even 75/25, which is why some of the fringe is being "censored"- not to do so would continue to allow misleading information to cause further harm.

** POsting as a member **

I am surprised that someone wouldn't know what I was writing about.

 I get my news from PBS, BBC, Deutsche Welle, NY Times, WaPo, some WSJ, some CBC, some Reuters, some Guardian, some Globe and Mail, most Chicago Tribune. I watch CNN, MSNBC, or Fox News only rarely, and I live in Illinois. I travel a couple of times a year to the East Coast.

News is different in different places. I see very few ads from one party, because that party thinks it's a waste of their money to advertise in Northern Illinois (not without reason ). My guess is that you get ads from only one national party, too (I mean 'national' vs. 'state' and 'local'). News is spun one way by the the Times and different ways by, say, the Toronto Globe.

I get very little LA news here ... I guess that means both Louisiana and Los Angeles . My guess is that you get very little Illinois news. Neither of us sees the political ads that the other of us see, and ads reveal a lot about locales, IMO.

On one hand, it's a big loss. OTOH, no one has enough time to get ALL the news that could go into a decision.

I'm not at all surprised that I don't know what you're referring to, because we just don't receive the same communications. We just don't have the same info to go on.

(Incidentally, truthsetmefree, one big impediment to one world government is that we have to communicate in many, many languages. Worse, some concepts just don't translate.)

...my family can't go along with what the mainstream science is saying.

Doesn't mainstream science recommend not to get vaxed if it's contra-indicated? I think a very bad reaction to the first shot is accepted as 'contra-indicated', and I can see that recommended to close relatives.

*****

Some of us are right here, and some of us are (flat out) wrong. I have no doubt that what we know now makes the vaccines universally applicable, except where contra-indicated, but I know we're taking a risk WRT unintended and/or long-term side effects. That's why I say 'some' of us are right - 'some', but I'm not sure which side that refers to. After all, Thalidomide was approved by the FDA because it was so great during testing, IIRC. (Note that testing has gotten a lot better since then.)

But vaccination isn't the only thing we discuss on SI.

We've laid out a lot of facts in this threads, but we have to interpret these facts for ourselves. I remain interested in why some people adopt minority opinions, but so far there have been few answers. But no one is obligated to answer those questions, no matter how interested anyone may be.

Above all, though, let's remember SI's main focus - surviving infidelity and then thriving.

Let's keep our passion, and let's keep our humanity, too. Covid evokes passion, but that doesn't mean it needs to evoke enmity, though I'm sure there's a word that fits much better here.

*****

I will comment on one thing from an anti-vax, anti-mainstream media, conspiracy-theory leaning website.

They express shock and concern that states have the right to enforce quarantines and can even use police to do the work.

When I was 132 or 13 (1956-57), I was diagnosed with scarlet fever. A policemen came to our house and taped (to glass) or tacked up (to wood) quarantine notices on the 3 doors to our house. my parents didn't object, nor did any of our neighbors. Our doc mumbled something about it being unnecessary in light of current science, but he didn't fight it, either.

An yet some writer on the website told readers to be horrified.

My bet is that the writer was told to whip up some fear and anger to increase views so they could charge more for the ads they show and to gain more support in the crusade against government.

If they were truly interested in informing the public, for example, they would have looked into the history of quarantines and interviewed experts about the pros and cons.

When evaluating communications that come in to us, we really need to ask and answer questions like, 'What are they saying? Why are they saying it?'

[This message edited by SI Staff at 6:40 PM, Wednesday, January 12th]