SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

^^because apparently only men can have views on this issue?

^^because apparently only men can have views on this issue?

The frustration is not with you having views, its that so many are based on the same false premise (and that this particular view is so hypocritical in most cases).

If a BH was upset that his WW was in love with AP and not with him and declared that this was a dealbreaker if it didn't change, you would all say "well duh" in unison. You would also all acknowledge the individual WW's right to love whoever she wants to. BH doesn't have to accept that in a marriage though.

If BH made it a condition of R that WW be open and transparent with phones, internet and whereabouts, you would all agree this is not only fair, but necessary. You would also agree that she has the right to walk away if that is too confining for her.

If a WH was buying gifts or sending love notes to AP or taking her out to dinner (or whatever) and the BW decided she needed the same treatment or there would be no R, you would almost certainly support her 100% (and acknowledge that he could leave at any time).

Yet for this issue the BH is a caveman if he doesn't bow down and accept the disrespect. It's complete bs.

I should also note that many BWs have come forward and said they would do the exact same thing if WH denied them oral but gave it to AP. I appreciate that honesty and I would agree with them 100%.

No one (male or female) needs to be demanding anything sexually from anyone. If one needs something the other spouse isn't willing to give, no matter the reasons, than one needs to decide if it is a dealbreaker. Sex needs to be given freely, it is a gift, it is not some kind of feudal payment.

This was my post. No where in my post did I make the distinction between BS, WS, male or female. Yes, everyone has the right to make choices if something isn't what they want in their marriage and there doesn't seem to be a way to compromise on it.

I do feel that no one has any right to "demand" something sexually from any partner regardless of gender or "label" (BS/WS).

"evening the score" is not paramount to surviving infidelity.

All it does is add shit to an already well loaded shit sandwich.

Has any BH here with the "evening the score" view, successfully reconciled?.

Did you build a new, stronger marriage through asserting your manhood over your WW by getting the same sexual favours that she gave her AP?

If in the process of building a new marriage certain sexual practices are discussed and brought into the bedroom as a manner of building a closer relationship fine. Its the "bend over or get out" scenario that bothers me.

The last straw for me was my WW telling me that I was treating her like a "sex doll" for wanting anal sex with her more frequently. We did it only 3 times since DD. During her A she was doing it with him weekly for multiple years. She has told me she was manipulated, guilted and coerced into sex with OM but freely did all that stuff anyways. She never tried to stop him or refuse him. She did anything he wanted and fulfilled every request of his.

Yet when I wanted the same treatment I'm the one treating her like a sex doll. Nope! Not me, not her loving husband. Anyways, starting mediation on Saturday and after we D I'll be looking for someone else who is more sexually attracted and compatible for me.

Either your wayward spouse ups their game sex with you or you can just refuse to try anymore. Sex is a major component of any relationship, let alone marriage. If your spouse freely gave AP sex and other sex acts they need to do that with you as well. If not, at least to me its a deal breaker and it's part of the reason why I'm ending my marriage. To some people sex is highly important. It's in my top 3 things I'm going to looking for in a future partner.

I do feel that no one has any right to "demand" something sexually from any partner regardless of gender or "label" (BS/WS).

Of course they have the right to "demand"* it. The partner has the right to say no. None of this forecloses the possibility that honest communication and compromising (with respect for the other person's feelings, needs and humanity) could not overcome this obstacle. It's just that a BH's unwillingness to be treated as a second-class lover should not be so thoroughly dismissed as backwards or (worse) ridiculed and shamed as sexist or abusive. Again, THAT is complete bs.

* I've found that often semantics come into play on this subject (particularly with those who have endured sexual trauma in the past). My wife bristled at my assertion that when a couple enters into marriage they have an "obligation" to ensure the other's sexual needs are addressed. When worded more like a couple in a healthy marriage must ensure that they meet each other's needs she doesn't have any problem with it. Perhaps substituting "require as a condition of reconciliation" for "demand" would make this more palatable.

I feel that for a woman, sex involves opening up herself, mentally and physically. i don't think ppl should be made to do that.

if she did it willingly for the AP and will not do it willingly and with gusto for you, then leave.

The last straw for me was my WW telling me that I was treating her like a "sex doll" for wanting anal sex with her more frequently.

Yeah, that would be the last straw for me too. Look, WW, you willingly became a "sex doll" for another man. That's who you were, in fact, you were so desperate for it, you risked our entire life together to be a sex doll for this man. You better believe I will get the same treatment, because, like it or not, men enjoy women who are sexually open and free with them and down for anything. We just do. And my (and your) WW KNOWS that, which is why they acted that way with the AP.

Entering into an A, knowing it or not, for most women, is agreeing to be a "sex doll". Sure, the guy will say a lot of nice things to you, but, look back on what really happened. You were a doll to him; the sexual fantasy that he always wanted, and that was pretty much the extent of the relationship (at least it was for my W). So, no, you don't get to be the "ultimate" sex goddess for another man and then tell me it's off the table, it just doesn't work that way. Just like I couldn't be Cassanova with expensive dinners and helicopter trips over NYC with another woman and then tell you that romance and spending money on helicopters "isn't really me". You don't get to be someone else's fantasy and not mine.

It boggles my mind how differently men/women view this issue. But we do, that much is clear. And, if your a woman reading this and hoping to reconcile, please heed the advice and discussion points the BH's here are putting forth. Yes, you have ever right to refuse, but, if that's the path you take, you should really divorce, let your H find someone who wants to do those things with him and find the same for yourself. Because refusing and then trying to "salvage" the relationship will just lead to years of heartache and resentment; likely with a D down the road after a lot of wasted time.

I don't have an issue with you wanting the same that your WW gave the AP, skins21. That makes sense. (One of the reasons I didn't want any details of what FWH and OW did sexually because I knew instinctually that it could cause even more issues in the sex department.)

However, if your WW/WH isn't a willing partner, whatever the reasons, there seems to be a need to communicate and maybe compromise about the issue. If you can not come up with a solution that works for both of you, than you both need to decide if it is a dealbreaker for each of you.

And, no I don't feel anyone has a right to "demand" anything sexual from anyone, married or not.

I think that alot of people are getting caught up in wording or semantics on these issues.....Being as plain as i can be..

if a BS wants a better sex life with their partner they need to communicate and discuss this with their partner. If a solution/agreement/compromise or whatever cannot be reached, as the BS has every right to state what they are looking for in a sexual relationship. And the WS has every right to refuse. Then the BS should evaluate what this means to them. And if it's a dealbreaker then they should walk....

And frankly this doesn't even need to be a BS/WS situation. This should apply to every relationship regardless of if infidelity is involved or not.

So a solution to the wants/needs thing is communication.

Before infidelity this sort of thing should have already been discussed. At least from my perspective. How do you not talk about what you want before getting married....

After infidelity, communication is even more vital for healing to occur.

if she did it willingly for the AP and will not do it willingly and with gusto for you, then leave.

Then we are in agreement.

mizunomead hit the nail on the head and really is what everyone is saying but thinks they are in disagreement on.

There can be both points of contention and deal breakers for both the BS and WS. That is not a right or wrong it is just a fact. If needing to have the same sex acts with your WS as she/he had with their AP is a "deal breaker" and they are not willing to do it, then the definition of deal breaker is, the M is over. Done. Ended. The "deal" of the marriage is broken.

If the WS understands what the BS needs but refuses to do it, then if it is their deal breaker, then the same applies: marriage over.

Maybe what some call deal breakers are really not breakers and are more never ending points of contention. Which happens, but that does not constitute a deal breaker.

People can demand whatever they want. You can't force a demand on anyone that is free to choose to comply or not. It's just a word. If it truly is a deal breaker, then it probably should be called an ultimatum, because that is what a deal breaker is:

a demand, the rejection of which will result in a breakdown in relations.

If you demand it and the WS doesn't agree and comply, then it is only a deal breaker if the deal is broken. The BS has a right to lay it out as a non negotiable deal breaker. The WS has the right to deny compliance. That would presume to result in a broken deal: marriage over.

If the real argument is about what is fair or not fair, that is an entirely different concept.

I don't have an issue with you wanting the same that your WW gave the AP, skins21. That makes sense. (One of the reasons I didn't want any details of what FWH and OW did sexually because I knew instinctually that it could cause even more issues in the sex department.)

However, if your WW/WH isn't a willing partner, whatever the reasons, there seems to be a need to communicate and maybe compromise about the issue. If you can not come up with a solution that works for both of you, than you both need to decide if it is a dealbreaker for each of you.

And, no I don't feel anyone has a right to "demand" anything sexual from anyone, married or not.

Again, you have an issue with the word "demand", you aren't actually saying anything different than the people you are disagreeing with. While you don't like the word, making it a dealbreaker or a requirement of reconciliation IS making it a demand. None of that removes the WW's choice in the matter.*

* there is the further issue of no defensible reason to give it to AP and not BH, but we need not get to that question since we agree.

Another issue here is one that my wife and I refer to as different " economies" at work within the mind and heart of the partners involved.

I mentioned earlier on this thread about kissing. I could have also just as easily and equally substituted the concept of her sharing her thoughts or feelings at MY discretion and timing rather than just her own...or "control" of certain things that each value very, VERY differently.

For example, I'd say I was in " the mood" sometimes, and she'd very willingly accommodate my " needs" (or just "wants" sometimes) even though she maybe wasn't "feeling it" herself. But at times, (quite often actually) I'd ask her, " what's on your mind?" Or I might ask, " why are you acting upset?"--neither of which has anything to do with the aforementioned sex, btw.

The logic and insanity of that never ceases to shock the shit out of me, although I've FINALLY gotten to the point of being able to at least acknowledge the reality of that former mindset and " economy" of hers and FOO's.

It's been a very hard thing for me to accept and grasp how differently she and I value and see certain things. ESPECIALLY since I spelled out my values and " economy" very verbosely and in great detail to her BEFORE we even started dating/courting, AND as an actual PREREQUISITE for even considering dating/courting to begin with!!

(I was actually trying to scare/shock her with my beliefs and value as a test to see if she was the one fated to be my wife before I even knew if she " liked" me or not, but that's another story there...) Yeah, I WANTED her to think I was crazy , but apparently she was OK with that!

Anyway, when I ask her how she's feeling, that's a $10 bill to her (which seems NUTS to me since I was tired and positively SURROUNDED by women and girls for most of my life and they almost ALL would have PAID for a man that actually WANTED to knew and hear such things from them).

But she was raised by men (her dad and brother) and her abandoning mother is about as deep and real and sharing as an ameoba or a tick or a flea. So for HER, privacy is a security blanket and her voluntarily breaching such a very real sacrifice and show of trust and intimacy for HER.

Whereas I give that stuff away (instead of immoral sex outside of marriage or other moral or personal compromises) for free to total, internet strangers without even blinking an eye sometimes.

That's often not even my QUARTER! It's just my $.02!

[This message edited by Cephastion at 11:48 AM, March 28th (Wednesday)]

I am not necessarily disagreeing with people, Lazarus, I agree. Others are taking what I posted as disagreeing. What my original post stated was exactly my problem with "demanding". Requiring, demanding, something for reconciliation is different than demanding something sexually. If people can not make a distinction between demanding the truth, transparency, etc. and demanding something sexually from someone I don't think I can help them understand the difference.

Walloped. If I may ask do you ever find the advice given to the Mrs hurtful or anything like that? You questioned this advice of the threesome and i would too but I was wondering if you have felt upset at anything else.

My WH won't come here. So I am in awe of any and all waywards that do. I commend them.

Locking per Op's request.