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Maybe I missed something. Have you discussed your childhood? I am a strong believer that we are born with the personality we have for the rest of our lives if given a happy childhood. If toxicity is present that personality has difficulty forming and can often times be distorted. If we have a reasonably happy, low-key, nonstressful childhood we usually turn out exactly who we were meant to be. The more trauma, the more the chaos, the harder it is for that personality to form healthy boundaries and a healthy attitude towards life. It is an uphill battle to survive emotionally when stress is constant. I’m a pretty good proponent of basic stuff with kids. They don’t need much. What they need are dependable people in their lives, mothers and fathers, grandparents, or anyone who’s there for them every day. They need stability, "can I rely on if this going to be the same as it was yesterday and I can relax". Kids don’t relax unless they can trust and they can’t trust if their lives are chaotic. The more things press down on the kid the more they are just swimming to keep their head above water and they’re not learning good, coping skills. The more chaos the harder it is for that personality to form healthy boundaries and a healthy attitude towards life.
Your wife might have issues that you know nothing about. Children are sponges. Good and bad, they absorb it all. What about you? How was your childhood?
Crying is releasing tension and living with profound grief. You need to let it out. Your health depends on it.

What do you think you still need to know?

Just curious because I wonder if you know enough and can get yourself out of this "investigation mode".

Maybe I missed something. Have you discussed your childhood? I am a strong believer that we are born with the personality we have for the rest of our lives if given a happy childhood. If toxicity is present that personality has difficulty forming and can often times be distorted. If we have a reasonably happy, low-key, nonstressful childhood we usually turn out exactly who we were meant to be. The more trauma, the more the chaos, the harder it is for that personality to form healthy boundaries and a healthy attitude towards life. It is an uphill battle to survive emotionally when stress is constant. I’m a pretty good proponent of basic stuff with kids. They don’t need much. What they need are dependable people in their lives, mothers and fathers, grandparents, or anyone who’s there for them every day. They need stability, "can I rely on if this going to be the same as it was yesterday and I can relax". Kids don’t relax unless they can trust and they can’t trust if their lives are chaotic. The more things press down on the kid the more they are just swimming to keep their head above water and they’re not learning good, coping skills. The more chaos the harder it is for that personality to form healthy boundaries and a healthy attitude towards life.
Your wife might have issues that you know nothing about. Children are sponges. Good and bad, they absorb it all. What about you? How was your childhood?
Crying is releasing tension and living with profound grief. You need to let it out. Your health depends on it.

I grew up middle-class, suburbs.

An older sister (six years), who had troubled teenage years, became pregnant as a freshman in college and dropped out (I was in middle school)—that was definitely chaotic and I have negative memories from those years seared in my brain. As I became older, our age gap was less relevant and she’s been one of the closest people in my adult life the last 20~ years.

My parents were never in love throughout my life—they almost separated before I was born, but stayed together until I left for college.

My father had high moral character regarding children—his childhood home was a nightmare, so he was determined to be there for me. He was never overly loving toward me as a kid, but very dependable. We’d vacation together solo often with his friends and he’d be there every night for me to cook dinner.

My mother was all over the place—when she was home, she was on the phone for work or with a friend. She was completely disengaged from family life and would rarely get off the phone to eat dinner with the rest of the family. She travelled a lot as well. She was always there for me when I needed her, but she was never there otherwise. My relationship with her was strained until I was an adult—but now we are very close.

My parents divorced the day I left for college and within a few years my relationship with my mother became much better. She showed me I was her top priority in life—I think I always was, she just didn’t know what to do with a child. She wanted to jet set around the world so I was of no use for her until I was an adult. She now basically lives in my backyard though as we built a house behind her—my mom and her husband are the primary childcare for my children.

Now, I understand that all sounds less than ideal, but it was ok. I had an incredible grandfather (mom’s father), who was the most important person in my life growing up—he was always there for me. We’d play games together as a small child and as I grew up he’d take me places to get toys, etc. We had a truly special bond. He died two weeks before my college graduation and it crushed me—though looking back, I was so much less engaged with him those last few years—I was off at college becoming an adult and I left him behind I guess.

I also had an incredible group of friends—incredible. We were very tight, with my best friendship forming at age four. We spent every day together without exception, bike riding around the neighborhood, playing video games, sports at a local field, etc. I look back so fondly on my childhood largely because of the great group of friends I formed. High school was one of the best times of my life because of the friends I had and the freedom I had to spend all my time with them.

As for my wife, her FOO issues are well documented in my first thread, but she certainly has issues with her parents and younger sister, who has significant psychological issues—she also developed a very unhealthy desire to please/attract men starting at age 10.

What do you think you still need to know?

Just curious because I wonder if you know enough and can get yourself out of this "investigation mode".

I feel like I have a really good understanding of what happened, but I still crave more detail—specifically, I crave my wife volunteering detail rather than me pulling it out of her. And she won’t do that—she just says I know everything. She’s also actively fighting every day to forget the details.

But for me, I feel like it’s a last chance at a treasure trove of trust rebuilding. Whenever she told me something especially hurtful, I’d be happy in the long run because it was proof she was being honest, not just in self-preservation mode.

I also find the small details helpful in moving passed specific dates—as I flesh out all the grey areas, I spend less brain power focused on them. It feels like that thing is done, so I can move on to the next. I don’t know what the specific threshold is though, I just want more.

I keep telling myself that I’m no longer in investigation mode, but I clearly am. I’m still looking for the next smoking gun and getting frustrated by not finding anything—is it because I now know it "all" or is it because it’s been scrubbed from existence and I’ll now never know it?

I feel confident this is my wife’s first affair, but I’m certain the badmouthing of me didn’t begin with the affair, she just poured gasoline on it in Dec. I want to go back and hear and read all the nasty things she’s said about me.

Essentially, I feel trapped. Without knowing everything, how can I commit to R or D? I hate the idea of acting on incomplete information. I’d never do it in any other decision in my life, so doing it on the most important one feels insane.

For your consideration:

You eloquently described your relationship with pain, and you’ve talked about anger, fear, sadness, grief…. emotions that are expected and natural responses to betrayal, trauma, and loss. You’ve definitely mentioned many of your other emotions as well. Thinking about your own emotional capacity, like before learning of your wife’s betrayals, do you think you were able to move freely and comfortably between and through a wide range of emotions? Or, do you think more often than not, you probably felt a few certain emotions more often than others? I’m sharing these questions with you because my husband describes himself as very independent, and others have described him as stoic. Our MC asked him the questions I posed above, and his answer helped him see that he has spent most of his life feeling just a few certain emotions, which left him feeling unsure what to do with himself when he wasn’t feeling pain, anger, fear, etc. I’m not assuming this idea applies to you at all - mostly just responding to the word "stoic."

Secondly, you’ve mentioned your wife being defensive and playing the victim, and every time, I think, Amen brother, because I have been there with my husband practically every day at some point, and it only makes a bad situation worse. Finally, just today, I watched a video of an MC (Jake Porter) talking about shame and betrayal, and he said that defensiveness tells us that shame is being activated, which can be totally unconscious. But the betrayer can learn to channel it into a conscious response. Instead of allowing the shame to take hold, do the opposite. He suggested that the betraying spouse lean in, look their partner in the eyes, and say, "I am not going to leave you in the pain that I’ve caused you. I’d rather be with you in your pain than not with you at all. I choose you over my shame." And I thought….. Wow. That really is the opposite of defensiveness.

Also, regarding feeling like you might not know the whole truth, have you looked into arranging a therapeutic disclosure? Besides possibly hearing new details, it can provide an opportunity to hear information you already know, while you are in a physically and emotionally safe environment with the support of trained therapists in the room. It can help your brain be exposed to the horrifying and disorienting information in a less traumatic, more therapeutic way, and the process can help with healing some trauma aspects for you as well.

For your consideration:

You eloquently described your relationship with pain, and you’ve talked about anger, fear, sadness, grief…. emotions that are expected and natural responses to betrayal, trauma, and loss. You’ve definitely mentioned many of your other emotions as well. Thinking about your own emotional capacity, like before learning of your wife’s betrayals, do you think you were able to move freely and comfortably between and through a wide range of emotions? Or, do you think more often than not, you probably felt a few certain emotions more often than others? I’m sharing these questions with you because my husband describes himself as very independent, and others have described him as stoic. Our MC asked him the questions I posed above, and his answer helped him see that he has spent most of his life feeling just a few certain emotions, which left him feeling unsure what to do with himself when he wasn’t feeling pain, anger, fear, etc. I’m not assuming this idea applies to you at all - mostly just responding to the word "stoic."

Secondly, you’ve mentioned your wife being defensive and playing the victim, and every time, I think, Amen brother, because I have been there with my husband practically every day at some point, and it only makes a bad situation worse. Finally, just today, I watched a video of an MC (Jake Porter) talking about shame and betrayal, and he said that defensiveness tells us that shame is being activated, which can be totally unconscious. But the betrayer can learn to channel it into a conscious response. Instead of allowing the shame to take hold, do the opposite. He suggested that the betraying spouse lean in, look their partner in the eyes, and say, "I am not going to leave you in the pain that I’ve caused you. I’d rather be with you in your pain than not with you at all. I choose you over my shame." And I thought….. Wow. That really is the opposite of defensiveness.

I *think* I experience all of the emotional spectrum normally, but it’s also the only way I’ve ever known it.

When I used the word “stoic” I was specifically referencing physical pain tolerance. I’ve found that I can tolerate higher levels of physical pain than most people throughout my life. If it’s unavoidable or required pain, I can lean into it—just be in the moment and feel the pain rather than run from it, wince or cry.

For this experience, I’ve cried like a baby plenty of times—but it feels different. It feels like pain with no purpose. It’s all so stupid—my wife is stupid and what she did is stupid. So she sits here comforting me and trying so desperately to support me and all I have to do is just move on with her if I want to—but I can’t. So instead I cry at all I’ve lost. But I’ve lost it for no logical reason at all.

And I like your point demonstrating the relationship between defensiveness and shame. My wife is horribly ashamed—her self-esteem is nothing and she says she genuinely feels like a worthless whore. So she can’t handle the thought of me seeing her exactly how she sees herself.

It was interesting as I had a brief conflict with the CT last session. In addition to seeing descriptive words like selfish, unempathetic, entitled, etc., when my wife visited my threads she also saw someone label her a whore—and she voiced how awful it made her feel (it’s clearly a big trigger word for her).

In the session, I nodded along and said sure, we all agree you are those things. The CT challenged me asking if I thought my wife was a whore. I told her I didn’t call her a whore, but it’s obviously not an inappropriate label all things considered. The CT became a bit angry with me.

Again, I reiterated, it’s not about it being an insult—and she snapped back that as a woman it very much is an insult. So I asked the CT what word would better describe my wife? She said: "Affair. Your wife had an affair."

So I said "That describes what she did, but what word should we use to describe her as a person committing the affair? I’ll let you establish a reasonable label and we can use that word to avoid these semantical detours."

Unfortunately, she just backed down and quickly changed the topic. I was disappointed as I thought we could have gotten somewhere. My wife is deeply ashamed of her actions, but she’s tying her actions up in labels, like the word "whore," and then becoming defensive about the words rather than the actions.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 12:07 AM, Tuesday, May 31st]

^^^^. There’s a big difference between labeling behavior and labeling the person. My guess is that your WW already has an internal issue with making this distinction…which is often at the root of shame. Using labels that focus on the person will only drive her further into the shame spiral. Do with that what you will. As I said before, you’re early in the process so it can be hard to control your own pain so as not to inflict more pain; sometimes we don’t even want to.

It feels like pain with no purpose.

Is this necessarily true…or are you just not yet able to see what the pain may teach you? Again, it’s early…but finding a way to open yourself to an inner journey (even just becoming willing) may give you some purpose for this pain you are experiencing. Pain is always trying to tell us something.

I think its time you make her post here as a requirement of reconciliation.

The WS is the most protected forum on this site. Far more protected than JFO,IMO. She can post with a stop sign,so she doesn't hear from BS.

It will benefit you greatly,for the FWS here to help her start digging into her issues.

Otherwise, what's the point,really? She reads your threads and whines when someone says something she doesn't like. No work is being done. This site is a tremendous resource. And she is wasting it.

As an aside..ask her what the she thinks the OBS calls her. She begged this woman's husband to fuck her in the ass,while handcuffed, before they both went home to their wife and kids. Ask her what she thinks would be an appropriate word.

Regarding your comments about physical vs emotional pain, I learned recently that when people feel emotional pain, the same areas of the brain get activated as when we feel physical pain: the anterior insula and the anterior cingulate cortex.

I'm exhausted from making that point to my wife over and over again.

I would think that this is not for you to 'force', but for her to discover during her IC sessions. The more you try and get her to recognise this destructive trait, the more she may rebel. She will need a 3rd party to guide her through this behaviour. Best you step back on 'pointing things out', and get her to 'discover' things through her IC sessions. Your task is to heal yourself first, and not try and 'fix' your WW.

As to your MiLs 'apology' text, my take:
- that it is a cowardly way to do it.
- it is for her own 'closure' (she is absolving herself from the destruction she enabled).

By sending a text, she did a 'fire and forget', as she did not have to put in as much effort compared to calling you, as that would entail possibly having to listen to your response if she had called. She has 'done her duty', and it matters not whether you reply or not. He conscience (if any exists) is clear. Like a repeat criminal who goes to confession, says the Hail Mary's, and goes to commit another crime again.

So, your decision not to send the message is the correct one. If you had sent that, your MiL would possibly have gone into a victim mode, and say that you are being mean to her.

This dissociative trait seems to be common between your MiL and WW.

I feel confident this is my wife’s first affair

Freudian slip, or lazy typing?

The sex issue you are grappling with now will only amplify once your hysterical bonding dries up in the next couple of months. Trust me, I’ve been there. 99% of the BS on this forum have, too.

Your issue is not betrayal. It’s about the sex. How could she give the AP sex so freely when she tortured you for so many years, denying you sex and using it as a weapon against you. This is understandable. Your wife used sex to control the AP and denied you to control you. It’s a sick power game. It’s her weapon of choice to control men. It gives her the power. And she knows the power that sex has over you. Or any other man for that matter. And I bet she got a lot of gratification telling you about the anal sex part because it gives her a certain control and power over you - consciously or unconsciously. She knows this would hurt you. Honesty is important when it comes to disclosing details to the BS about the affair but while many APs may disclose everything they stop at details they know will hurt the AP if they can get away with it. Like anal sex. She not only told you that but she also told you it was without a condom. Here, have another slap in the face DrS. She’s still in control of you. She would gain much pleasure from disclosing this to you. "DrS I not only denied you sex for years, I let the AP stick his dick in my ass." Sorry for the crassness but I’m trying to illustrate a point here.

I’m sure others have touched on this but sex with a new person is exciting. Of course she would go places she wouldn’t with you, the boring and uninspiring husband. Which you aren’t but she saw you that way to justify in her head what she was doing. Entitlement.

Now, it’s 3.30 am and I can’t get to sleep and I’m rambling. I want to ask you a question: if your wife had an EA instead of a PA would you be sitting here torturing yourself over the details of an EA? I suspect the answer is "no".

As some poster wrote earlier, you need to decide whether you can cope living with a woman who gave sex to a man and did things she denied you for years. It’s a difficult question when in your heart you initially wanted R. In 5 years time, will you be OK with it all? Hard to answer now but just for a moment think what your answer may be. I suspect "no". Since you’re grappling with this now and all you talk about is the sex part - and quite frankly so do 95% of men on this forum do - what will change in 5 years? You can’t erase what they did. Cause I think no matter what your wife does to appease you - and even if she becomes the model FWW (highly unlikely given the way she processes emotion) - you will not get over the sexual part.

Unless, you get serious IC. And I’m talking about trauma work. EMDR. You need EMDR to get over the physical part if you are to give yourself a chance to shift your thinking on the sex part. Essentially, you’re traumatised about what she did with AP. And that, my friend, is hard to overcome even with the best counselling.

This is a long road. Give yourself a break. You don’t have to make a decision now.

[This message edited by Mene at 8:51 AM, Tuesday, May 31st]

Pain is always trying to tell us something.

No doubt this pain will reach me more than any other pain I have experienced. I only meant that it’s pain I wouldn’t have had to face if my wife had any decency. It’s pain I’m dealing with as a result of marrying a very unserious, frivolous person.

So that’s frustrating.

I think its time you make her post here as a requirement of reconciliation.

That’s likely coming eventually I think. Not sure it’s the right time yet.

As to your MiLs 'apology' text, my take…

To be clear, she did not apologize for her awful behavior during and after the affair, she apologized for not reaching out to me the last two months.

And to be even more clear, my wife has made my feelings clear to my MIL, so she knows how hurt I am by what she said and did and she still chose not to apologize for it.

As I noted, I’m glad I did the writing exercise, but I’m not going to stress about it now. If she values me in her life, she’ll take another shot at this down the line.

Freudian slip, or lazy typing?

Don’t think so, I was just noting I didn’t think it was her second, but point taken.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 12:39 PM, Tuesday, May 31st]

The sex issue you are grappling with now will only amplify once your hysterical bonding dries up in the next couple of months. Trust me, I’ve been there. 99% of the BS on this forum have, too.

Your issue is not betrayal. It’s about the sex. How could she give the AP sex so freely when she tortured you for so many years, denying you sex and using it as a weapon against you. This is understandable. Your wife used sex to control the AP and denied you to control you. It’s a sick power game. It’s her weapon of choice to control men. It gives her the power. And she knows the power that sex has over you. Or any other man for that matter. And I bet she got a lot of gratification telling you about the anal sex part because it gives her a certain control and power over you - consciously or unconsciously. She knows this would hurt you. Honesty is important when it comes to disclosing details to the BS about the affair but while many APs may disclose everything they stop at details they know will hurt the AP if they can get away with it. Like anal sex. She not only told you that but she also told you it was without a condom. Here, have another slap in the face DrS. She’s still in control of you. She would gain much pleasure from disclosing this to you. "DrS I not only denied you sex for years, I let the AP stick his dick in my ass." Sorry for the crassness but I’m trying to illustrate a point here.

I’m sure others have touched on this but sex with a new person is exciting. Of course she would go places she wouldn’t with you, the boring and uninspiring husband. Which you aren’t but she saw you that way to justify in her head what she was doing. Entitlement.

Now, it’s 3.30 am and I can’t get to sleep and I’m rambling. I want to ask you a question: if your wife had an EA instead of a PA would you be sitting here torturing yourself over the details of an EA? I suspect the answer is "no".

As some poster wrote earlier, you need to decide whether you can cope living with a woman who gave sex to a man and did things she denied you for years. It’s a difficult question when in your heart you initially wanted R. In 5 years time, will you be OK with it all? Hard to answer now but just for a moment think what your answer may be. I suspect "no". Since you’re grappling with this now and all you talk about is the sex part - and quite frankly so do 95% of men on this forum do - what will change in 5 years? You can’t erase what they did. Cause I think no matter what your wife does to appease you - and even if she becomes the model FWW (highly unlikely given the way she processes emotion) - you will not get over the sexual part.

Unless, you get serious IC. And I’m talking about trauma work. EMDR. You need EMDR to get over the physical part if you are to give yourself a chance to shift your thinking on the sex part. Essentially, you’re traumatised about what she did with AP. And that, my friend, is hard to overcome even with the best counselling.

This is a long road. Give yourself a break. You don’t have to make a decision now.

I largely disagree with you, but you touch on some major issues I need to respond to so that there can be some clarity. This post may qualify as TMI, or maybe I’ll go down as the most open and honest person to ever post on these forums lol.

I do think the "betrayal" and my WW’s badmouthing are the major issues. I don’t think I keep talking about the sex, though admittedly the last few pages have covered it—the sex part of this is somewhat easier to deal with it that I’ve made it clear what my wife needs to do to maintain a relationship with me now. If she can’t do it, that’s "easy" for me to decide not to bother with R. There’s no world I’m going back to that involves me feeling horrible about my sex life.

As for the EA vs. PA question, I almost certainly wouldn’t be on this website if it was only a EA. In fact, I essentially discovered the EA on Jan. 20 (two months before DDay) and ignored it.

But it’s not just that I ignored it, it’s because I was ok with it. I remember thinking that evening that it could be a good thing: maybe it would get my wife out of her sexual rut. And don’t discount my cuckold fetish either because that was in play—an EA, in my naive mind, was a "safe" way to explore that fetish for me.

So let me dig into the whole cuck thing a bit more so I can show you how fucked up I really am. In my head, I’m now creating fantastical extremes about the affair to turn me on during some sexual sessions with my wife—typically less active ones; like for example, when she is giving me oral sex.

So the nuts and bolts of the affair—the facts I know—are still too painful for me to sexualize and enjoy, so instead I take it to an extreme that didn’t happen.

As an extreme example, I might fantasize about him not pulling out and orgasming inside her, forcing her to get morning after pills. He does it to "own" her and she’s accepting of it because she needs to have sex with him—he’s just so good in bed that she will do anything for him. The two of them openly mock me and discuss not allowing me to have sex with my wife so only he has access.

It’s twisted shit. If any of that happened I would be thoroughly horrified. But because it didn’t happen, I’m free to explore it in fantasy and find the humiliation of it erotic.

I am planning to make this a priority in IC today because it’s fucking me up. I’ve had long ties to mild interest in sexual humiliation, but the affair has really done a number on my brain. I don’t want to live the rest of my life secretly humiliating myself to these ideas and I sure as hell can’t ask my wife to participate in them.

Anyway, I share all of that to say the sex aspect of this is really weird for me right now. I don’t think it’s the part preventing me from forgiving my wife, but it is causing lots of separate problems.

Look, DrS, I’m not intentionally trying to add to the humiliation. Just trying to help you navigate the mind challenges you will no doubt encounter when your wife will withdraw from the daily sex offering as hysterical bonding finishes. Take it from us who are in long term R. When that “quick I have to fuck to claim you back” stage ends. That’s when reality really hits. Hence why everyone here tells you that R now is too soon cause in more crass terms, you’re being pussy whipped. Your getting from her what you really desired. And desperately needed. Sex.

You said it yourself, the EA was really inconsequential. It didn’t matter. In fact, you wanted to use it as a way to spark your wife’s desire for you. Put an end to the dead bedroom situation. You would have allowed this to continue had you not discovered it turned into a PA.

The main reason most men cannot get over their wives being unfaithful is the sex. We are biologically wired to feel threatened when another man tries to have sex with our partner. For our survival. And the passing on of our genes.

Your wife used sex to humiliate you. Subconsciously and consciously you gave her the green light when you felt comfortable for her to speak to a man about intimate details of her life. "It was good for her and our marriage". Unfortunately, the opposite happened. But I can understand from your perspective why you allowed it. The thought of another man having sex with our wife sends signals to our brain to activate our sexual prowess to compete. Your fantasy turned into reality. Horrifically. I know of a friend who fantasised his wife as a Hot Wife. He encouraged her to flirt with other men. He then wanted her to have sex with them. But when she got a taste of the flirting and he realised this could actually turn into an affair he wanted her to back off. She didn’t. She was smitten as a late-30s year old that a 22 year old man wanted to have sex with her. Most 22 year old testosterone filled men want to have sex even with a 38 year old mother of 3 children. Suffice to add, she left my friend to start a "relationship" with the 22 year old. Unsurprising it didn’t go too far when he realised he could pull in younger women.

It’s one thing to fantasise, it’s another to actively encourage your wife to flirt with other men, particularly when she isn’t giving you sex. It’s a recipe for disaster.

I’ll go back to my original point, please ask your psychologist about EMDR. It will help you overcome the visualisations that are torturing you. Cause if you don’t address it, you most likely will still be tortured by them in 5 years. Whether you stay with your wife or not.

[This message edited by Mene at 12:43 PM, Tuesday, May 31st]

Essentially, I feel trapped. Without knowing everything, how can I commit to R or D? I hate the idea of acting on incomplete information.

I am sorry you feel this way. I wish that could change for you.

I believe that the betrayed spouse never gets the full truth in most cases. I don’t feel my H told me the 100% truth about his first affair. But I know enough that I had to accept what I know - and move on.

He swears he was not in love with OW1 but yet he loved the attention. It may or may not be true - but it doesn’t matter b/c I believe my version of events anyway.

Point is — it doesn’t matter WHAT he says. It only matters what I BELIEVE.

It’s not semantics. It’s not a game.

I don’t know what answers you need from your wife. From all the pages of this thread you seem to have the details of your wife’s affair. I wish I could help you get out of this "investigation" mentality because that part was the most damaging to me.

It had me stuck in a warp that made me miserable yet I was unable to stop it. It’s like being caught in a riptide - you know not to swim against it but yet your instinct is "to do something". So you swim against it.

The day I decided I had enough of the mental torture I was putting myself through (and stopped digging for information) was the day I made a very positive change and started on a better path to healing myself and choosing R.

I knew more about my H than he knew about himself. And accepting I had enough information and details was the day I chose to do something better for me.

I didn’t R without knowing everything I needed to know - and what I didn’t "know" didn’t really matter.

Here’s an example to follow up with my last post.

My H traveled extensively on business. Every week. Sometimes weeks at a time. All over the world.

During this time I always knew he could cheat and I would never know. But I never thought he would.

After the second Affair - I am sure he did cheat on me during those business trips. He had opportunity.

Did I ask him? No. If I did I am sure he would lie.

And it doesn’t matter what he would say b/c I believe he did.

And that’s enough for me. I don’t need proof. And I don’t need him to admit anything.

Look, DrS, I’m not intentionally trying to add to the humiliation. Just trying to help you navigate the mind challenges you will no doubt encounter when your wife will withdraw from the daily sex offering as hysterical bonding finishes. Take it from us who are in long term R. When that "quick I have to fuck to claim you back" stage ends. That’s when reality really hits. Hence why everyone here tells you that R now is too soon cause in more crass terms, you’re being pussy whipped. Your getting from her what you really desired. And desperately needed. Sex.

You said it yourself, the EA was really inconsequential. It didn’t matter. In fact, you wanted to use it as a way to spark your wife’s desire for you. Put an end to the dead bedroom situation. You would have allowed this to continue had you not discovered it turned into a PA.

The main reason most men cannot get over their wives being unfaithful is the sex. We are biologically wired to feel threatened when another man tries to have sex with our partner. For our survival. And the passing on of our genes.

Your wife used sex to humiliate you. Subconsciously and consciously you gave her the green light when you felt comfortable for her to speak to a man about intimate details of her life. "It was good for her and our marriage". Unfortunately, the opposite happened. But I can understand from your perspective why you allowed it. The thought of another man having sex with our wife sends signals to our brain to activate our sexual prowess to compete. Your fantasy turned into reality. Horrifically. I know of a friend who fantasised his wife as a Hot Wife. He encouraged her to flirt with other men. He then wanted her to have sex with them. But when she got a taste of the flirting and he realised this could actually turn into an affair he wanted her to back off. She didn’t. She was smitten as a late-30s year old that a 22 year old man wanted to have sex with her. Most 22 year old testosterone filled men want to have sex even with a 38 year old mother of 3 children. Suffice to add, she left my friend to start a "relationship" with the 22 year old. Unsurprising it didn’t go too far when he realised he could pull in younger women.

It’s one thing to fantasise, it’s another to actively encourage your wife to flirt with other men, particularly when she isn’t giving you sex. It’s a recipe for disaster.

I’ll go back to my original point, please ask your psychologist about EMDR. It will help you overcome the visualisations that are torturing you. Cause if you don’t address it, you most likely will still be tortured by them in 5 years. Whether you stay with your wife or not.

My initial response to you was a bit rushed, but there's a lot you're saying that doesn't apply to me, but also a lot of points that are very important, so I want to unpack this all a bit more.

To start, sex has been largely a mental exercise for me my entire life. The physical/mechanical aspects of it are rarely enough for me; I almost always need an angle. The angle often plays on dominant or submissive framing; i.e. if I'm bending a woman over and having sex with her, I'm "dominating" her and taking what I want--I'm in control, I'm "the man," and she's uncontrollably having orgasms because I'm fucking her so good, my dick's so big, etc. Alternatively, and more often, I enjoy the role of the submissive--I enjoy being humiliated, so that's the part we'll need to dig into.

As I documented early in my first thread, the sex life with my wife the last several years largely revolved around me giving her oral sex and cuming in my boxers while doing it--often timing my orgasm with hers. Why that developed fascinates me, but I think it was a combination of factors:

1. My submissive fantasies took over my sexuality. I was posting on a sex forum (as a journal) and trying to push myself into an increasingly MORE submissive sex life. I'd push my wife to take verbal shots at me ("you don't get to fuck me, only lick me;" "no other husband would settle for just cuming in his pants;" "you cum too fast during sex, so this is all you get.")--it was all roleplay, and my wife would VERY rarely engage, but I lived for those moments as it was the only time I felt sexually alive. I needed that to enjoy our sex life.

2. My wife, early on, did not enjoy sex. I have an above average-sized penis and she would often complain various positions hurt her (as discussed, she's tiny, 110 lbs). That combined with her various anger/resentments for me led her to not want to have sex with me. Early in our marriage, the most often sex session was her giving me oral and me bringing her to an orgasm with my fingers (which has always been her favorite way to cum). Over the last 5~ years that developed into almost all oral sex from me 3x~ a week (we'd have intercourse only 20x~ a year I'd guess). Essentially, her not wanting to have sex led me to expand my fetish so I could enjoy the sex life she was ok participating in with me. I'd talk with her about my fetish (at least a dozen 2-3 hour conversations over the years), but she'd shutdown every time. The result was me acting out my fetish in our sex life alone--to her she was just relaxing and getting oral before bed; it didn't go any deeper for her. However, as a result, her not understanding the fetish but participating in it changed her image of me into a doormat with no self-respect--she didn't understand the fantasy vs. reality of it all.

I should also make it clear though that while the fantasy of her having sex with another man was in the back of my mind for years, I was in no way mentally prepared for it to happen. If we go back a year, my perfect scenario would have been her flirting with a guy at a bar while I looked on or her having cyber sex with a guy online with me sitting next to her. Also, going back to the beginning of our relationship, I always wanted her to tell me about her past sex experiences while she gave me a HJ, but she locked up on that front very quickly. Regardless, I was in no way ready for her to have sex with someone else, but the idea of another man having her was both terrifying and arousing.

So now, post-affair, it's still all mental for me. When I'm having sex with her, I'm often "claiming her back" as you cite; when she's giving me a HJ or BJ, I'm often fantasizing about all the humiliating things that could have gone on behind my back. Not always--sometimes I'm present and connecting with her--but often enough for it to be an issue.

Where we strongly disagree is that in no way was my wife trying to humiliate me during the affair. All of this fetish stuff confuses the hell out of her. During the affair she was actively trying to give me more sex and didn't want me to give her as much oral. And in no way did she think she had my blessing to have an EA (though I suspect my inaction on Jan. 20 emboldened her to be sloppier in covering her tracks--up until she was caught, she never thought I had a clue).

We do agree that it was all a recipe for disaster. My wife and I didn't have a close enough bond or open communication to attempt any kind of complicated open relationship. But again, that's not what any of this was--she was just cheating.