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Doctor Strangelove, I want to thank you for your reply to this post, and I mean no ill will or agression toweard this poster:

The post:

One of the things I see frequently here is men that just cannot understand how their wife could do the things she did in an affair yet have apprehension or reservation in engaging in those same things with her husband. She explains…and that aspect makes perfect sense to me as a woman. Yet they get stuck there - continually bringing it back to prowess, desire, even equipment. They think their wives are just lying.

Your reply:

I understand it entirely; like I wrote, I just don’t care.

My wife spent 15~ years destroying our sex life. She wielded sex like a weapon over her husband, who loved her dearly. I have no doubt it was well justified in her mind: I belittled her, was dismissive of her, disrespected her—she convinced herself of all kinds of monstrous things. I have zero sympathy for any of it as not once did she raise it in a conversation with me.

She stole 15 years of passion and love from my life; all the time I thought she was dealing with entirely different issues that she wouldn’t or couldn’t communicate.

Fast-forward to now.

I learn that she fell for another man; a spark that drew her to him emotionally and eventually physically. She gave herself entirely to the man sexually.

She doesn’t get to do that. It’s not part of the game—she broke all the rules.

This is a fairly frequent argument in the general forum: Betrayed husbands who are sickened that their wives were reserved or distant sexually over years - even decade! Then some sleazebag comes along and they embark on a secret life where they fuck him six ways to Sunday, in every hole, in public place, every act that the husband ever expressed desire for and was denied, and a bunch of others - all given freely.

Essentially the betrayed husband side of the argument goes: If she could do it for the sleazebag, who didn't marry her, partner with her, raise a family with her, accepted all of her bullshit, perhaps supported her - then she should not hold back with me.

Then the other side goes: You're trying to exert control over her body, you are coercive, how dare you, you're like a rapist, maybe she didn't really want to do all that stuff she did over and over and over again without hesitation, that she texted him about doing, and told him she couldn't wait to do again, that she carefully planned to do behind your back, and so on...

***

Basically the betrayed husband is accused of not being understanding enough of his partner's sexual autonomy and so on.

Mind you - this argument is essentially never made for cheating male spouses, and generally the instructions are, whatever the cheating male did for his sleazy AP, he should do for his wife double or more - gifts, intimacy, going places, love letters whatever.

***

Back to the betrayed husband who wants the level sex that somehow was freely showered upon some shitbag, the accusation is leveled that he just "doesn't understand" how women and their sexuality works or something like that.

In fact, it is the reverse - those making this argument don't understand, or perhaps do not care, at what they wholesale offering of your wife's sexuality to Mr. Shitstain, particularly when your marital sex life has been completely restrained and suppressed for years on end does to said betrayed husband.

And then topping it off with - "I don't want to do those same things for you because..."

***

The thing is - I actually agree with them! Your cheating wife, or any cheating wife does not have to do anything they don't want to do with you sexually.

And honestly, if your wife feels pressured into these sex acts, are they going to be enjoyable for you? I assume not.

That's why I asked you way back when if you can live with the way your wife gave herself sexually to the pta cop going forward in your life?

Because, despite all this "maybe she didn't want to..." speculation, she asked him to fuck her in the ass. She asked him to do other things. She planned and executed on parking lot sex and so on.

In my world, when you ask somebody for something, that is a pretty strong indication that you want said thing.

And, Dr. Strangelove, if she isn't unprompted, asking you to fuck her in the ass, then I think that is a pretty strong indicator of how she feels about you vs. him on the sexual desire scale.

You decide if that is tenable. Not me, not someone trying to defend the honor of all women through your wife. You decide.

Doctor Strangelove, I want to thank you for your reply to this post, and I mean no ill will or agression toweard this poster…

Faithfulman, I agree with you (obviously). I also find the opposing position to be intellectually dishonest and I think you’ve done a fine job enumerating why.

The bottom line to all of this is that it is entirely her choice. I’m not forcing her to do anything—neither was AP. She can decide who she wants to fuck and how she wants to fuck him now and forever. But she does have to decide.

Along the same lines, I can say there was a positive development on this front over the last day. We spoke about it yesterday and she told me that her primary reservations right now are tied to how openly I’ve discussed divorcing her. She feels like it’s difficult to be open and vulnerable with me right now because she feels like every day will be the day I walk away.

I told her I understood how she felt, but it’s the bed she’s made. That she’s on a burning plane (our marriage) with a parachute and has to decide if she wants to jump—I already jumped. So while she sits their breathing in the burning jet fuel and pondering her fear of heights, I’ve already landed—I know what I expect from her and I’m unwilling to negotiate the point.

So I asked if she wants to jump and she told me she does. She wants to be all in and she wants to be vulnerable with me regardless of what I ultimately do.

Again, only words, but she has been more sexually aggressive and open to new things, so that’s something. It’s too small of a sample size, but I’m committed to riding this out at least a few more months regardless.

And lastly, yes, I’ve noticed the very different tone here than in the JFO sub-forum and I’m getting used it to. Honestly, I like it—but that’s because I’m weird and enjoy conflict. :)

She wants to be all in and she wants to be vulnerable with me regardless of what I ultimately do.

As I understand all in — it’s not with one foot out the door.

Understandably, you have one foot out the door.

But I do think you have to have a goal first.

You’ve talked before about wanting the transparent, vulnerable all in marriage you deserve.

And that’s a goal.

Divorce is every other post too.

That’s a goal.

You can’t aim for both.

Every WS on the planet knows D is possible because of what they did. D is available everyday of the year, every year until the end of time.

Demanding they be vulnerable and hang out under the Sword of Damocles — is more than fair based on the damage they caused — it’s just a tough GET.

My wife was never surprised the relationship could end because of her shitty choices, where she was surprised is I gave her every opportunity to save the M and show me why I should stay. She couldn’t get to all in and vulnerable until she really believed there was a chance for success, however slim that might be.

As I’ve always said, no WS is owed a last chance.

But if you GIVE it that chance, then really give it.

I think you may need more time to know what you really want.

Once you KNOW, it’s easier for BOTH people to be all in, which I think offers a shot at the relationship worthy of your time and effort.

As I understand all in — it’s not with one foot out the door.

Understandably, you have one foot out the door.

But I do think you have to have a goal first.

You’ve talked before about wanting the transparent, vulnerable all in marriage you deserve.

And that’s a goal.

Divorce is every other post too.

That’s a goal.

You can’t aim for both.

Every WS on the planet knows D is possible because of what they did. D is available everyday of the year, every year until the end of time.

Demanding they be vulnerable and hang out under the Sword of Damocles — is more than fair based on the damage they caused — it’s just a tough GET.

My wife was never surprised the relationship could end because of her shitty choices, where she was surprised is I gave her every opportunity to save the M and show me why I should stay. She couldn’t get to all in and vulnerable until she really believed there was a chance for success, however slim that might be.

As I’ve always said, no WS is owed a last chance.

But if you GIVE it that chance, then really give it.

I think you may need more time to know what you really want.

Once you KNOW, it’s easier for BOTH people to be all in, which I think offers a shot at the relationship worthy of your time and effort.

Her being open and vulnerable sexually is not a silver bullet to R for me--it's one piece of my requirements for her to be my future partner. So she can do that and still fail--it's just the topic of the last few posts here, so perhaps it has a weighed emphasis right now in the thread.

I need her defensiveness to stop, especially when discussing the affair. I need her selfish, unempathetic nature to change. I need her to stop finding ways to be the victim every single day. Those are more important for me than our sex life and I've been focused on them primarily the last couple of months.

The last couple of days have went well now--but largely because I suggested we stop talking about the affair as of Friday night. I needed a break to reset and she did too--so the last two nights have been peaceful.

So right now, her behavior is seemingly wonderful--none of her negative traits are showing and she's throwing sex at me all day long. But we'll be back at it again, digging into all the horrific pain she's caused and she'll again be faced with choices on how to respond. If history is any indication, she'll fail those tests and I'll be giving you all an update on the latest disaster.

But I don't want to wish that into existence--I want her to succeed and perhaps the bad last week we just went through is the big wake up call I've been hoping for.

Separately, I also really need to dig into my own issues to understand more about who I was these last few years and how that's influencing my decision to R or D. I keep thinking back to Jan. 20 when I essentially caught her sexting--was nearly certain of it in the moment--but not only did nothing about it, managed to convince myself I was wrong within a couple of days and go on being blissfully ignorant. I feel like there's a lot there to dig in on, and unfortunately, my only path to exploring any of it right now is in IC--so I'm looking forward to my next appt.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 8:54 PM, Sunday, May 29th]

Separately, I also really need to dig into my own issues to understand more about who I was these last few years and how that's influencing my decision to R or D.

I don’t like to attribute any silver linings to trauma — but the tragedy of it does open the door for a full reset.

The deal is broken. The foundation is burned to the ground.

Finding what you really want out of life is your primary mission.

I used the moment to do that digging.

There is something liberating with all doors and directions completely wide open. Both my sons were over 18 when my wife confessed, so my choice was even more open than most.

Once you’re good with you, and that takes time, your decision will also be liberating, because it won’t rely on anyone else or a specific outcome.

If you choose R and works great, if it doesn’t work, you will be just as great.

I think you’re ahead of where I was at this point post dday, I hope the IC helps.

[This message edited by Oldwounds at 10:08 PM, Sunday, May 29th]

Doctor Strangelove, I want to thank you for your reply to this post, and I mean no ill will or agression toweard this poster:

FM - I think the larger point I was trying to make may have been missed. I didn’t want to belabor it though because DrS seemed to have a strong response to it and given that he’s early in the process I didn’t want to put more on him than he may be ready to currently explore.

Then the other side goes: You're trying to exert control over her body, you are coercive, how dare you, you're like a rapist, maybe she didn't really want to do all that stuff she did over and over and over again without hesitation, that she texted him about doing, and told him she couldn't wait to do again, that she carefully planned to do behind your back, and so on...

I have seen exactly what you are referencing - and if you look back on those threads you will see that I disagree strongly with this stance. You get to ask for whatever you need to heal and I have zero issue with a BS making it a prerequisite for R.

I lived in a marriage that would meet the definition of being sexless. All while he was out getting his kink on. I truly understand how the disparity in the sex (married vs affair) feels; it’s been one of the hardest things to heal from.

The point that I was trying to draw attention to was the role vulnerability plays - more so that affair sex can be more adventuresome, outside of the bounds/norm, particularly because the vulnerability is less. It can seem like they are being more vulnerable if you look at the acts alone - and I do think men tend to view that aspect more from this lens. But the reality may be that it was because of feeling less vulnerable (less to lose in that relationship) that they did/could engage in that behavior.

It doesn’t make it any more acceptable or excusable. But hopefully it helps to keep the AFFAIR sex in perspective. (It ain’t you. It ain’t him.) And I’m in NO WAY suggesting that having that perspective should change anything you want or need to move forward.

DrS - Happy to see you are emphasizing the vulnerability in your most recent post. I think you are on the right track there.

Now I’m told she can’t be vulnerable with me because she can’t understand how I can love and respect her, a self-defined whore. Maybe that’s an accurate reflection of how she feels—but again, I just don’t care. It’s all on her—all of it.

She feels like it’s difficult to be open and vulnerable with me right now because she feels like every day will be the day I walk away.

Fundamentally, your WW has still not gotten her mindset to being empathy based. She is still self-based thinking. All about protecting her, and little about rebuilding what was destroyed.

Have a read about CaptainRogers' threads about his situation. For the longest time, CR would be tearing his hair out as his (f)WW just did not 'get it', then suddenly, his (f)WW had some sort of revelation, and her mindset went from self-serving to an empathic one.

How long will this take? Who knows. For some it is immediate, some will take longer, and sadly, some never will reach that point.

It will probably depend on how much work the WS wants to put into rebuilding/repairing. Does the WS have the mental/physical fortitude/capacity to achieve that goal?

So while I’m doing my best to refocus my thoughts around me, I keep getting dragged into various other dramas. My in-laws are one of them—and I wrote about those issues at length toward the end of the first thread.

My MIL, who was aware of the affair and enabled it, finally reached out to me yesterday after two months of no contact (my wife suggested it). It was a text apologizing for not contacting me sooner and offering any support I might need.

I haven’t responded yet and a part of me wants to just leave it be for now as I’m still quite angry with her. But there’s another part of me that just wants to get everything out in the open so I don’t have to carry all this unresolved anger around with me.

I drafted a text message to send her—it’s harsh—but I thought I’d get feedback here first.

Is it too harsh? Am I just making my life more complicated by telling her how I really feel? Should I not send anything at all? What are potential benefits or consequences of sending it? Should I share it with my wife first?

**

[MIL], I have tremendous anger for how you treated me in the days following the affair reveal.

You and [FIL] took me in as family these last 15~ years and it meant a lot to me—I suspect far more than you realize. Following the reveal, very quickly you went from family to nothing: unprompted, telling me you could no longer even talk with me unless [WW] was present. Then a day after that, you devolved from nothing to an active enemy of my marriage—when it was at its weakest—as you and [FIL] terrified [WW] into thinking I was a monster trying to steal her children away from her.

That’s all separate from the disgusting and immoral text conversations you were having with [WW] behind my back. [WW] was not on birth control and she was seeing a serial cheater for months to have unprotected sex (vaginally, orally and anally) and then returning home to me and our children. She was spending thousands of dollars on hotel rooms and lingerie. She was hiding alcohol around the house so she could keep herself secretly drunk all the time.

Her world was on fire and I knew nothing. But you did.

And as best I can tell, you thought it was funny—you laughed along with her at my expense while you knew she was having an affair and risking everything. You twisted it in such a way that you saw your behavior as support for your child.

I keep asking myself, as a parent, what would have to happen for me to abandon my morality so completely when one of my children needed me most—it seems all it took for you was to hear [WW] tell you a few absurd lies about me and how I was supposedly treating her for you to completely lose your moral compass. (Every slight she described about me was complete bull shit.)

I’m in no way blaming you for what [WW] did, but don’t for a moment convince yourself that you were supporting [WW] throughout this mess—you were enabling her through the worst part of her life.

It’s unclear why you’ve decided to reach out to me now, but I’m certain your support is the kind I can do without.

Your mother in law isn’t one to fix. She is texting just as much for her own reasons as any others.

You can worry about that issue later. She exacerbated the real issue and the natural outcome with that is that she lost her priority in either of your lives until the matter is settled one way or the other.

The real estate in your brain is way too valuable for her to take up residence there.

"I’m trying to fix a problem that you made worse. You are probably the last person I’d reach out to for help. Do not text me again" would probably be really fun to send though, wouldn’t it?

Since you don’t fully know which direction your recovery will take — no reason to drop a grenade on a burning house.

If you stick around, that’s a grandparent, who sounds like she has more than earned your anger.

Personally, I would take the high road and go crickets for now. Silence can be a powerful answer.

Since you don’t fully know which direction your recovery will take — no reason to drop a grenade on a burning house.

If you stick around, that’s a grandparent, who sounds like she has more than earned your anger.

Personally, I would take the high road and go crickets for now. Silence can be a powerful answer.

Agreed. This can be dealt with later. I can almost assure you that your handling of MIL will be different depending on the outcome of your marriage.

Doc,

Personally, I would absolutely send the letter. Throughout the 50+ pages of your thread, you have shown a measured (to a fault) and rather conciliatory response to the shit sandwich you have been fed. IMO you should shed the nice guy/overly rationalizing approach with both your wife and IL's. It will not only be cathartic but go a long way to demonstrating that you no longer will tolerate being abused. There comes a time when a guy just has to stand up for himself and start swinging back. Yeah, if you R, saying nothing to the IL's will make for a smoother relationship but certainly at the cost of your self respect. Just keep eating the shit sandwich! Sometimes taking the high road just doesn't lead to the destination you're trying to reach. But at the end of the day, you gotta do you, and all this advice is worth what you're paying for it.

[This message edited by Sammich at 3:12 PM, Monday, May 30th]

I would send it. It is on her to repair what she has damaged.

She is reaching out to make herself feel better. Like, oops sorry, as if that is going to make it ok. It is likely your wife is trying to make it easy to go back to the way things were. Your wife is probably glossing over what is currently happening in your home and since she is in self preservation mode, probably scrambling to figure out how she can fix this without actually fixing it. MIL and your wife need to know that you will NEVER be going back to the way things were.

Silence works too. But this is family so I don't see why you should not be as honest and forward as you want to be.

I agree with the others. Hold the text for now. At some point, I'd send the text letting them know exactly how you feel, they deserve your anger.

Crickets. Crickets. Crickets. Many times silence speaks volumes.

At this moment, you've got too much on your plate. The focus needs to be on you, your wife, and your marriage.

Years ago, my SIL called me hysterically crying. She found out my brother was cheating with their housekeeper. I didn't say a word to my brother for a long, long time. Crickets. No phone calls, no texts, nada. We talked probably every other week. Silence from my end.

At one point, they were supposed to be working things out, my SIL flew to Houston to visit us for a week. She and my brother just needed a break from the drama, however, when she returned home, she discovered my brother had been seeing OW the entire time she was gone. That's when I let him have it, I held nothing back. Timing was everything. He got the message loud and clear, AND I think my wrath made him take a long, hard look in the mirror. Something clicked. OW was just after his $$.

I stuck by my SIL side. There's no way in hell I would have supported my brother or enabled him or accepted his behavior. Ever.

Your in-laws need to be dealt with, but IMO I'd put it on the back burner for now.

An old adage I picked up from a wise mentor many years ago in the practice of law, apropos to you now Dr. Strangelove:

One will rarely regret having said too little.

[This message edited by Wiseoldfool at 5:02 PM, Monday, May 30th]

What was your sex life in the beginning of your relationship? Was it over the top lots of sex? That’s the beginning of any sexual relationship and then things calm down. On top of that it sounds like she just submerged her personality completely to the point you did not even know what she was thinking most of the time. Nature abhors a vacuum so she allowed one and you filled it in with your personality. Yours is a strong one and so she felt overwhelmed even though she was participating in this upside down relationship. It is amazing to me how much people don’t read themselves until all hell breaks loose. You never got a tiny handle on what she thinks and who she is because she did not let you. You, on the other hand, let her know flat out every day who you are. That kept that relationship so imbalanced that y’all need to scrap it all together and start all over again. That’s not to say to reconcile or to divorce it just means start all over again. I don’t see any way to save the original one.

[This message edited by Cooley2here at 5:15 PM, Monday, May 30th]

That message is something that was a good exercise to get those words out of your head and onto paper. Just hang on to that.
No need to waste bandwidth on the MIL. She has shown that no matter what she will be on the side of her daughter. In fact they are cut from the same cloth so to speak. You have different standards than WW and MIL do.
Ignore her.

I don’t recommend sending it. I would not answer her text at all.

However, I would show your WW the text and ask her what she thinks of it, as well as her opinion on whether or not to send it.

I support sending the letter now.

I also think you're too kind.

Like many, I suspect they only really respect you when you exercise power over them. And I think they need to see potential consequences to motivate them.

Their response to your wife's affair removed their masks and now you see them for who they really are (selfish, stupid, zero empathy for others, ... morally bankrupt).

Therefore, I would add a sentence (in your own words) pointing out that they not only failed their daughter - but they fail as roll models for their grandchildren.

[This message edited by Robert22205https at 7:43 PM, Monday, May 30th]

Thank you all for the responses.

One will rarely regret having said too little.

@wiseoldfool - I smirked when I read that because It's advice I often counsel in my profession.

Of course you're right that I have nothing to gain in sending the text, so I'll keep it in my pocket for now.

However, I would show your WW the text and ask her what she thinks of it, as well as her opinion on whether or not to send it.

@dude67 - I actually considered that myself earlier this morning, but decided against it for now--again, it feels like there's not much to gain right now.

That message is something that was a good exercise to get those words out of your head and onto paper. Just hang on to that.
No need to waste bandwidth on the MIL. She has shown that no matter what she will be on the side of her daughter. In fact they are cut from the same cloth so to speak. You have different standards than WW and MIL do.
Ignore her.

@MickeyBill2016 - Ultimately, that's where I've landed. It was good to write it to get it out of my head, but now I need to move passed my in-laws and refocus my attention.

I didn’t want to belabor it though because DrS seemed to have a strong response to it and given that he’s early in the process I didn’t want to put more on him than he may be ready to currently explore.

@truthsetmefree - Please don't feel that way! Lay it all on me.

What was your sex life in the beginning of your relationship? Was it over the top lots of sex? That’s the beginning of any sexual relationship and then things calm down. On top of that it sounds like she just submerged her personality completely to the point you did not even know what she was thinking most of the time. Nature abhors a vacuum so she allowed one and you filled it in with your personality. Yours is a strong one and so she felt overwhelmed even though she was participating in this upside down relationship. It is amazing to me how much people don’t read themselves until all hell breaks loose. You never got a tiny handle on what she thinks and who she is because she did not let you. You, on the other hand, let her know flat out every day who you are. That kept that relationship so imbalanced that y’all need to scrap it all together and start all over again. That’s not to say to reconcile or to divorce it just means start all over again. I don’t see any way to save the original one.

The sex was great when we first started seeing each other as fuck buddies (2005). I'd say once we began living together (2008), it took a nose dive.

And yes, I think your assessment is fair and it echoes many others. She was in fear of conflict with me--she felt she could never gain any ground with me and resolved to avoid disagreements with me and complaining about me to her mother (first instance of that I can prove is an email from 2013, so it's safe to assume it was always part of our relationship).

And I agree we would need to start over with mutual love and respect and open lines of communication--I would have to make sure she felt heard. The problem now is I'm just not ready for that step--that needs to come if I commit to R, but I'm just not there yet.

Fundamentally, your WW has still not gotten her mindset to being empathy based. She is still self-based thinking. All about protecting her, and little about rebuilding what was destroyed.

@RocketRaccoon - I'm exhausted from making that point to my wife over and over again. FWIW, she's displayed none of her negative traits this weekend--she's been vulnerable, compassionate and supportive, trying to take my pain away however she can.

It's interesting, and I've been tempted to post about it a few times, but my relationship with pain has always been interesting. I like it. I often seek it out. I lift weights because it's hard and because I love the soreness that comes. I've had countless doctors and physical therapists call me "stoic" since I was a teenager. I like pain because it's a reminder that I'm alive. It's the most direct and simplistic feeling--it takes no effort to relate to it immediately and you can never pretend it's not happening.

These last two months have been incredibly painful and I find myself leaning into it. The more hurtful the fact I can have my wife reveal, the better--if it's a really bad one, she might even make me cry. I never cry, so to cry from all this pain all the time now is cathartic on a level I've never experienced before. In some ways, I feel more alive now than ever before, but it's come at the expense of everything else.

I wonder if that's making it harder to come out of this spiral. Once the pain stops, what do I do next? That empty void of feeling scares the shit out of me. Instead of hurt, I'll just be sad. I feel like I'll just be sad forever, not feeling anything. I know it's not true; just a strange thought bouncing around in my head right now.

I feel like I know there are more painful details I'll never know, and in never knowing them, I'll never get to the bottom of this hole I'm in. Perhaps I feel the best way out is to keep digging down rather than climbing out.

Anyway--thanks again to everyone for all the replies. A talk with my wife is coming tonight and IC is tomorrow.