SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

kgcolonel - I only recently discovered the Love Languages, and I so wish I had learned of them sooner! BH's is strongly Acts of Service. Mine are Words of Affirmation and Physical Touch. I have not read the book yet, but I'm on the waitlist for it at the library. I think my ignorance of his love language is a large part of what made me not appreciate what I had in our relationship, and what made me susceptible to straying (that, and a host of things that were broken within me to begin with).

Thank you for your support and the thoughtful input. I'm certain he is struggling with quite a bit right now, and I am doing everything I can to not make it worse.

Hellfire - I'm still trying to figure out the answers to these questions -- I've asked them of myself at least 1000 times. I didn't make the first move, but it doesn't matter. I enabled him, and that's enough.

I haven't scheduled a polygraph -- it was offered as a part of my disclosure during MC, but BH doesn't believe in them.

WaitedWayTooLong - I appreciate your response. It's tough but fair. I have been minimizing things -- BH pointed it out to me a few days ago, and I've been making a concerted effort to not do so (mentally to myself, as well as when speaking to others). If you or anyone else encounters me doing it, please call me out and hold me accountable. I recognize this is something I need to address. I've been catching myself, but would appreciate the eagle eyes of some of the folks here, as well.

I am not keeping anything from BH -- I've told him everything I can recall. I also answer his questions honestly AND (more recently) to the fullest extent I can. I can't tell if he believes me (and why should he?), but he isn't challenging my answers as much anymore.

I appreciate the hope -- it's all I feel like I have, some days, so I can use as much as I can get.

Limboaz - I've been thinking a lot about my feelings for AP, lately, in response to some of the comments here. I should first mention that I am not terribly in touch with my feelings, in general, so I'm starting from a deficit. Forgive me if any of what I say comes off as remedial.

I had feelings for AP. I was in a very low place and he lifted me up. I felt unwanted, and he wanted me. I was depressed, but lightened by his optimism. Yes, I had feelings. But it was a mirage -- he wasn't who I thought he was, and what I felt wasn't what I thought it was. I thought it was love, in my fog-addled brain, but it was actually just a desperate attempt to feel validated. I'm planning to go into more detail on this, soon.

To clarify the timeline -- I don't remember exactly when all of this happened, but my rejection of BH was definitely well before the A. I believe BH's decision to no longer pursue sex with me was also before the A (by at least 6 months or so). The reason for the drop in bedroom activity was because of my deteriorating mental state, not because it was directed toward someone else. Truth be told, my enjoyment of sex has not been the same, since.

That being said, when AP came into the picture, I did carve out time for him. Far too much time. It threatened my job and it further handicapped my M. I feel sick when I think of all the hours I stole from BH to be with AP, especially after AP left my company. While I wouldn't say I shifted my primary loyalty, I was putting a lot of effort into the A, and it took a toll on me.

Thank you for the wish for luck - I hope there is something worth saving, after all the damage I did. I assure you, I've never wanted anything so badly as to prove to BH every day how much he means to me. But I'm working on letting go of that as a goal, because I can see how fear of the "negative" outcome is stifling my ability to give him what he needs...but I haven't managed to do so, yet.

FarsideJunky - The "mixed bag" has a few components.

Sex with AP lasted longer that it did with BH. AP was also more adventuresome - BH was not interested in exploring any "kinks", so our sex was very run-of-the-mill. I enjoyed the "adventure" of it, with AP. BH was my only sexual partner before this whole disaster, so there was a lot I hadn't experienced.

That being said, BH was larger than AP, and more attentive. He knew my body almost as well as I did. I never orgasmed with AP. That doesn't mean that I didn't enjoy myself, and honestly that end result got quite a bit harder with BH as well, ever since my libido took a nose dive. I've come to realize I was searching for a feeling of validation and being wanted...but because I had lost my confidence in myself, I also lost my capacity for sexual gratification.

I apologize if it doesn't make sense -- I've just started to spend any serious time thinking about it.

xhz700 - I think I've addressed this already, but it doesn't hurt to reiterate: Yes, you're absolutely right. I am that kind of person. I don't know how to process that information, yet, but it's undeniably true. I've been in IC for about a month, and every day more issues come up. I have a feeling it's going to take a long time before I can really internalize it, but I'm trying. I know I need to.

In regards to the "They want to" statement -- while I don't disagree, I do find it overly simplistic. When BH said something very similar to me last week, I told him I found that explanation insufficient and unacceptable, and I was not going to be satisfied with it. It's easy to say, because it's hurtful and true, but it's an explanation that doesn't actually explain anything. It doesn't provide any insight.

Sananman - Thank you for the response. It was constructive and thoughtful. I agree that I have lied to myself on countless occasions. But I think I was lying to myself within the A as much as any other time. (If it wasn't love, how could I justify what I was doing?) But I did have feelings for AP. I invested far too much time and effort into the A to make a case for otherwise.

Sex didn't really matter to me -- I went along with it because AP wanted it, and because I wanted to be wanted by him. But the void in me that I was trying to fill with AP wasn't physical - it was worse. I'm sure there was a part of me that liked the danger of it all, but I'm generally a very risk-adverse person, and so it wasn't as thrilling as it was anxiety-provoking.

I did it for the ego kibbles -- I was starving for ego kibbles. When the A started, I was in the throes of a crisis of confidence the likes of which I had never experienced before. AP made me feel good about myself, as long as I didn't think about what I was doing to BH (or could rationalize it away). I would do anything AP wanted me to, in order to keep the kibbles coming. It's disgusting to admit.

I'm not going to go into the state of the A in my head, before DDay. It doesn't matter if I wanted to end it or not, because the fact is that I didn't end it. Same thing with the invitation to our home - it doesn't matter if I intended for sex or not, because the fact is that it happened. Any discussion of intent on my part minimizes the actions that were taken, and I'm making an effort to stop doing that. However, I won't concede to intentions that I didn't have. I might have been fooling myself - that is absolutely possible - and if I realize that to be the case, I'll be the first to admit it.

I agree that I have a lot of work to do. My understanding is that most WS's don't show up here so soon after DDay, so I have a lot of ground to make up. There is absolutely some thrashing that I'm sure is uncomfortable for everyone. I appreciate that you've all stuck with me so far. I also appreciate the hopes for R - I'm not afraid of hard, or work, or time. I'd love to be given the chance, as I have no doubt it would be worth it.

NamasteGirl10 - Believe me, I know there are no guarantees. The truth is that the damage I did to my M might be terminal. I only meant that I didn't want to wait if it was absolutely not possible to R. BH was adamant that we were going to D, and I was looking for some advice about if I should take him at his word or if I should wait and see. In the words of Bon Jovi -- I'm living on a prayer.

skerzoid - While I disagree with your assessment of it being about lust, I appreciate the input and perspective. I'm not sure if my responses above shed any more light on the situation, but if they fail to address your questions please let me know.

Keeping the letters was incredibly stupid. I can't believe I did it, although I am oddly glad I did, because BH deserved to see them. I deleted so much of the evidence of the A, that they are pretty much all he has. They also forced me to admit everything, which I can't in good faith say I would have done otherwise, out of fear of the consequences.

I fear you may be right about all of the damage I've done. I'm doing my best to support his healing, but I can tell he's growing impatient with me. If I knew for sure what would be best for him, I'd do it in a heartbeat...

harrybrown - Thank you - these questions are thought-provoking and I agree that many of my decisions were "lousy". You're kinder than I would be. When I look back at all of the things I did, and all of the choices I made, I can't believe it. I'm doing everything I can to help BH. He deserves 10x the amount of effort I put into the A. He's certainly more than 10x the man AP was. Hell, he's 10x the person I am, too. It kills me that I did this to him - that I took advantage of his love and trust for me this way. He was so good to me, and I didn't see it. I didn't appreciate everything he did for me, all the times he was there for me, all the ways he accommodated me...it's thoughts of those that makes me cry, most often. The kindness he showed me, consistently, and which I paid back with such cruelty.

MidnightRun - I can't say I'm "fully prepared" but I'm braced for the likely eventuality and I appreciate the words of preparation. It's not the outcome I want, but if BH determines that's the path that will make him happiest, that's what I want for him. I still hope he doesn't make that determination, but I can't in any way hold it against him if he does.

xhz700 - You're right, I didn't care - at least, certainly not enough. And you're right, I need to adjust how I see myself. And lastly, you're right, I need to get over the outcome. I'm attempting the last 2, but they are challenging for me. Some days are better than others.

FreeAsABird - I suppose the answer depends. I didn't know about the dating sites until after NC was established, but I did know AP had started seeing another woman - as of a couple of weeks before DDay. He later told his BW the the woman was made up to make me upset, so I'm not sure if she actually exists or not.

Akheron - I have attempted to retrieve them, but AP and I did not correspond much over text. My cell phone provider doesn't keep deleted texts past 30 days, and I have switched phones multiple times over the past year (due to hardware issues, not A-related). I also checked if there were a way to retrieve Instagram messages, but they appear to be deleted instantly. I searched the internet for ways to retrieve them, and even tried downloading some tools to help, but they were just spam.

LongSadStory1952 - You're right - I didn't end it. What I thought or intended or might have done is inconsequential. I know BH thinks I've been minimizing, and I'm attempting to stop that. At this point, I'm just going to stop discussing intent altogether, because it only seems to make people upset. I can't prove it one way or the other, and it doesn't matter one way or the other, anyway. I am going to continue thinking about it, because I think it is important when it comes to "why", but I'm going to stop talking about it.

HardyRose - Yes, I'm aware of how this thread has devolved. I don't really have interest in the semantics and details, but do feel compelled to address questions as they are asked of me.

I think I've already mentioned some of this, but in regards to making myself safe, I'm in IC, I am journaling, I'm here, I'm focusing on living honestly and vulnerably, I'm practicing forgiveness, I'm planning to start meditating for mindfulness, I'm seeking out interactions with positive people, I'm reinforcing a work-life balance, and I'm attempting to show daily commitment to my BH and my M through acts of service.

As for why I had an A, I'm in IC, I'm journaling, and I'm here, all with the goal of introspection and self-reflection.

If there is more I can be doing, I would love to know. I often feel like what I'm doing isn't enough.

Sassylee - This has been challenging, but BH needed the support. I cringe myself sometimes when he tells me some of the responses he gets on his JFO thread (from what I can tell, I'm a monster over there), but if he feels it is helping him then he has my full support to stay. I agree that it is difficult to be open when the other could be reading, but it's an exercise in trust. I trust BH more than anyone in the world. If he says he won't read, he won't. And while the curiosity might kill me, I am in a position where I can't afford a single breach. I don't know if BH believes I'm not reading -- I think he does. He has access to my history, and so I stay out of JFO altogether, to be safe. I need to do this right by him, and I think he knows that.

I have thought about adding the stop sign several times, but the truth of the matter is that I really value the BS perspective. Even if they are a little overzealous with their 2x4's, and I have to take a break from here for a little while to lick my wounds from time to time, it's important feedback. BH isn't very vocal with me about how he's feeling, and so the pain and passion in some of their responses can help me better understand what he's going through.

FarsideJunky - I am not familiar with the idea of toxic shame, but I can see how it fits my situation. I was always very preoccupied with appearances. I was competitive, judgmental, and unwilling to show vulnerability. Those things built in me a framework of deception and bitterness that I need to dismantle. I'm working on it, and have felt some changes from it already. There is certainly more work to go, though.

Booyah - BH and I are not close with our neighbors, so I doubt any of them knew he was out of town. But as I mentioned above, I don't believe discussions of intent are productive. I'm not interested in minimizing my behavior, and so it doesn't matter if I did or didn't intend to. Either way, it happened.

GoldenR - Feelings are slippery things. On the one hand, there's what I wrote in that letter, and what I said in the voicemail on DDay. On the other, there's how I felt seeing AP waiting for me in the garage before work after DDay. Or hearing his voice on my voicemail last week. The evidence from within the A shows one thing. The evidence now shows another. BH says if I say one word to AP, we're over. No problem - I have no desire to ever speak to AP again, anyway. On the other hand, BH is simply talking to me less and I feel painful isolation and missing him. Whatever I thought I felt for AP went up in smoke the second it was stress-tested.

I'm not sure I said I never had feelings for AP. I know I don't now, and I know that the feelings I had were baseless. But yes, I had them. It's hard to explain them without first understanding the "why", though. I'm trying to work on them in tandem, but it's slow progress.

Limboaz - Yes, AP was absolutely a narcissist. He is the most self-absorbed person I have ever met. But yes, the fog was there. It made me feel special that he seemed to be taking some time away from thinking about himself to think about me, instead. Now I see that it was all a facade. As selfish as I knew he was, he was actually even more so. For him, it was all about the power. The power over me, and to insert himself into my life (thereby the power over BH as well). He destroys everything he touches.

SorrowfulMoon - You're correct that no effort to continue the A occurred after DDay. You're also correct that I have made many mistakes, and will certainly make many more. I pray that they are overshadowed by my proper choices. Thank you for your wishes of luck and support to us.

M1965 - These are interesting questions and I agree that I need a goalpost to aim toward. Much of what I've been concerned with so far has been what I don't want to be/do, but the things I do want have been more productive. It is far easier to make progress toward what to be vs what not to be. Part of the daily check-ins that we have been doing as a part of MC (which I personally think have been valuable to us, although I hear JFO has different opinions) have been a disclosure of any "incidents" or "threats" to the M that might have happened that day. It's been extremely helpful for me, because it makes me actually think about if anything happened, and share it with BH. What got me into trouble was the not thinking about it, and not sharing things that may have happened with BH.

And no, cheating was absolutely not worth it.

Skerzoid - I don't believe you were cruel to me. Perhaps a bit enthusiastic to put me in my place, but not cruel. I have gotten myself into therapy and have so far found it to be very helpful. I foresee keeping it in my life in some regular cadence forever, as a way to keep myself aware and mindful of my shortcomings. I'm very sorry to hear about what happened to you in your childhood, and am heartened to hear that you overcame it. I, too, hope to find my "why" and incapacitate it. Thank you for the wishes of luck, and I appreciate the support.

I have found your thread and the comments on it to be some of the most helpful on this site, and your willingness to listen to feedback encouraging. I don't have any insight to offer, I'm flailing around myself trying to make sense of the incomprehensible.

Im writing with words of encouragement. I am a recently, and rather thoroughly, BS. So my spidey-sense is keen.

I believe you.

I believe you want to do the work needed to make your BS safe and happy and whole. I believe you love him and can be a good partner. I believe, unlike most other WS I've seen, that you are mystified and afraid of what made it OK to behave as you did and that you need to understand that to heal yourself. I believe in the possibility of a successful recovery and reconciliation for you.

Now I'm gonna get in trouble with all the experienced contributors and freshly burned BS (pls be gentle).

My WS has betrayed me, my family, and the sacredness of marriage with recklessness and intent. He betrayed everyone who vowed fidelity. He has a lot of work to do to make him worthy of forgiveness BEFORE he has the right to ask. To me that means acknowledgement, understanding, repentance, and demonstrable change. You did the same and I see you working on the items I listed.

But I have a job too. I made a commitment to my marriage and family that I would protect and enrich them, even when it sucks. This is not absolute and everyone's bar of "too far" is different. I'm just learning mine.

For me - not everyone - that means being willing to accept the possibility that he/we can be strong again despite the ridiculous amount of betrayal and the slow start on acknowledgement and understanding. That means no destructive behavior to pile on to the already huge pile of sh&$ We already have to deal with, and being willing to listen when something of value is said or remorse is demonstrated. This does not mean I have to listen to blubbering lies or empty promises and validate he's trying his best, yadda, yadda. Or forgive, or allow him to stay if he's going to poison the family. It just means I need to be open to the possibility that this can be fixed, until it is clear it can't.

I don't know if your BS is on here (I think yes) or where things stand with you now, but I hope he will listen to you when you have something to say. I hope he gives you a chance to help him heal and be part of the family. I hope he sees the possibility for the two of you together.

I believe you are on the right track.

I still get the feeling cantsleep is holding back.

Kudos to you for answering all of these questions, and for continuing to come back.

I am not sure what to tell you about why or how to fix your relationship with yourself.

I have one suggestion.

Be honest with your BH. About everything, all at once. This affair, past ones, indiscreet behavior? You need to tell him everything. Anything you leave out will either be discovered, or hold back R forever.

Good luck.

There is "us" and there is what we "do". We are not defined by our actions (or lack thereof) alone.

You did a bad thing, you had an affair. That does not make you evil incarnate. I would know, I have been accused of being satan himself quite a few times in my life.

I don't believe in shadow selves etc. There's a lot of mumbo jumbo in the psy world that is ridiculous. We live in a feel good society where we must feel good about ourselves at all times period.

When we do really shitty things (and who among us have never done one shitty thing???) we feel shitty. That's how that works.

Committing a bad act does not negate our good qualities just like a good act does not erase our evil ones.

Don't make it more complicated then it has to be.

HelenKeller - I appreciate the encouragement, more than I can say, and I'm happy to hear that this has been helpful for you in such a terrible time. I'm also incredibly sorry you find yourself here - this misery doesn't love company. I'm sending thoughts of strength and hopes for clarity your way.

I believe you want to do the work needed to make your BS safe and happy and whole. I believe you love him and can be a good partner. I believe, unlike most other WS I've seen, that you are mystified and afraid of what made it OK to behave as you did and that you need to understand that to heal yourself.

Thank you. These are the things that keep me going. I do want to do the work. I want nothing more than to be given the time to show, over and over, that BH is the center of my world and that I will never hurt him like this again.

I'm absolutely terrified of what within me allowed me to do this to him. Mystified is a perfect descriptor - it's like I lost myself. I had principles, morals, even a sense of righteousness. But when the chips were down, I abandoned them. Why?? BH said last night that he wasn't sure what happened to the girl he married - she wasn't broken like this. He's right - she wasn't. There were "preexisting conditions", I'm sure, but something changed about 2 years ago. What happened to me?? I'm doing everything I can to figure it out, but I'm struggling. I've spent so much of my life deliberately not looking inward, I'm starting from square one. It's elusive - like trying to capture smoke.

But I refuse to go on without eradicating every chance of failure (independent of what happens with BH). No matter the work, or the time. I will not be in this position again. I will not hurt anyone like this again. I will not be this weak and impressionable again. I'm horrified by what I've done - the choices I made, and the hardness of heart it took to make them. This is not who I want to be. I will be better.

I don't know if your BS is on here (I think yes) or where things stand with you now, but I hope he will listen to you when you have something to say. I hope he gives you a chance to help him heal and be part of the family. I hope he sees the possibility for the two of you together.

BH is here under LuxuryJello, although he mentioned this morning that he might leave because he feels like he's mostly just triggering emotional responses in others, and he feels bad about that. Apparently there was one this morning that hit him pretty hard.

You might be the first person to ask how things are between us. It's hard. Really hard. We are talking, a little. We spent nearly a month apart (I just returned home on Sunday). He still needs lots of space. We're sleeping apart, we haven't touched in over a month, and for the most part he chooses to be in another room from me. But, we are talking, a little, and it feels like there's a real effort to understand and communicate in a way I'm not sure we've ever done (I can't really speak for his impressions, but that's how it feels to me). It isn't always pleasant - I often end up in tears - but it's heavy and real. I'm astounded by his kindness and consideration in those conversations, and I ache for his pain. When we're talking like that - negotiating our hurts together, and trying to make sense of this together - when he's pushing me to be better, kinder, and more considerate - I see glimmers of what we could be, if we make it through this. The ways we could be better to each other, more supportive of each other, and more in tune with each other. It makes it hard to "give up on the outcome", when that is a possibility (however distant).

I don't know where BH is on the see-saw of Stay or Go these days, but his tone has changed from resolute to impatient. I get the feeling he's irritated with my slow progress (as are many, here), and exhausted by the toll the emotional rollercoaster is taking. I think he recognizes that I'm trying. Maybe not always succeeding, but the effort is there.

I find your position with your WS extraordinarily measured and mature, and will be rereading your posts to get a better handle on your story. You're right - these are decisions you need to make for yourself, and everyone's limits are different. The road is going to be awful either way - it's about determining which one you feel is more worth the investment - with him, or without him? WS has a lot of work to do to make himself a worthy companion on your road to healing, and it's completely up to you what "worthy" means, if it's even possible at all. Don't ever waver on that. He signed you both up for this - if you decide to let him stay (for however long you decide to let him stay), he needs to own getting you out and minimizing the damage. It's up to you if it's enough.

Again, thank you. Best of luck - my thoughts are with you.

There were "preexisting conditions", I'm sure, but something changed about 2 years ago.

CSCE - I'm just an observer here. You have become more self aware since you first started posting.

If I was your counselor I would hone in on these statements. What were the "preexisting conditions"? What was the "something" that changed? "Something" is an amorphous term. Did you change? Did BH change? What is the something that happened two years ago?

These are things you need to dig down and discover. And yes, it's like peeling an onion.

Good luck to you.

Thedope - What do you feel I'm holding back? Details? Emotions? What is missing, for you? I'd like to remedy it, whatever it is.

xhz700 - Thank you for continuing to engage with me. I can tell that it has been frustrating and aggravating for many people, and so I have real gratitude to those of you that are continuing to invest the time and effort.

Yes, honesty is critical. I've come to realize that there is a very important difference between "not lying" and "being honest". I struggle with this, in general, and it is one of the things I am making a concerted effort to change. I am realizing I have an internalized issue with vulnerability that I have to be very cognizant of, otherwise I hold back "being honest" out of fear and self-preservation. It's a very selfish mentality.

There have been no other affairs, and no other indiscreet behavior. I was spending just about every free moment with BH, up until 2 years ago or so, so there would have been no opportunity. The only man I ever saw alone during our relationship (other than AP) was an old high school friend. BH and I were friends with him and his wife, and would see them occasionally for game nights and baseball games. We went on vacation with them, once. I only saw this friend alone maybe 3 times in the last 7 years for coffee, and one of those times was him asking me to be a part of his bridal party. None of this was in any way hidden from BH, and I've invited him to look through all communication we've had over the years as confirmation of no indiscretion.

Thank you for the wishes of luck, and for the help.

smokenfire - Thank you for this perspective. It certainly makes the possibility of loving myself feel more plausible when presented this way, and it helps me feel less lost. I think some of the directionless feeling I had was because of a feeling that I had to completely rebuild my sense of self. I thought I was the kind of person who had values and a moral compass, but if I'm not then who am I? But maybe I actually had those things at one point and discarded them. It still begs the question "why?", but that train of thought is more manageable than a from-scratch "who am I?" investigation. Maybe it'll be more productive, as well - it aligns with BH's feelings that something changed in me, and I wasn't always like this.

So how are you doing cantsleepcanteatAre you able to start getting more sleep? How is therapy going? Are you able to continue to work?

Absurdist - I certainly feel more self-aware! It's been a challenging process so far, and I know I'm only getting started.

What were the "preexisting conditions"? What was the "something" that changed? "Something" is an amorphous term. Did you change? Did BH change? What is the something that happened two years ago?

I'm still thinking through all of these, so forgive me if they are simplistic or superficial. I'm fully aware that what I've figured out so far is only the beginning.

The "preexisting conditions" are some coping mechanisms I developed in my youth to deal with anxiety and esteem issues.

The most recent revelation from my therapy session on Sunday was that I have a really big problem with being vulnerable, which I believe stems from low self-esteem and conflict avoidance. As a result, I cultivate a facade of "perfection", lying to myself to ignore my shortcomings, lying to others to deflect blame and responsibility, being incredibly judgmental of people so I can feel better by comparison, and (this is the big one) denying my needs/feelings.

Expressing my needs gives me such anxiety that I would rather deny they exist than have to face them. By not acknowledging my deficiencies and feelings, I don't have to deal with potential confrontations that stem from admitting/asserting them. The strangest symptom of this is that any time anyone shows the slightest bit of concern when I'm upset (especially someone in a position of authority), I burst into tears. It's like they've seen through the carefully crafted armor I've wrapped around myself, and witnessed the scared child inside. I have cried consistently in these situations since at least college, maybe longer - teachers, professors, managers, and now my therapist...I have a total inability to handle what happens to me when I'm struggling and someone both notices and cares.

Keeping that in mind...

In October of 2015, my company started an internal project that fundamentally changed my role. I was no longer doing what I was good at, what I liked, or what I signed up for. (That's also where I when/how I met AP.) I was feeling very vulnerable and anxious as a result. My new responsibilities made me profoundly unhappy and insecure. I really pride myself on doing a good job, and I couldn't - I wasn't able to. I was the best resource they had, but I didn't have the skillset and was not equipped to do the work they were asking of me. However, I also did not have the skillset to stand up for myself and voice those concerns in a way that resonated. I attempted to deny how I was feeling and rationalize it away, but this resulted in me feeling perpetually overlooked, walked all over, overwhelmed, and stressed. It also meant I wasn't communicating how hard of a time I was having, so people didn't notice.

As a result, I changed. I suspect I fell into a depressive episode, although I hate to self-diagnose. What I can say is that my energy levels plummeted, along with my sex drive (this is when the rejecting of BH happened). I became emotionally volatile at work. BH and I were trying to buy a house, which was also very stressful, and because of his work situation we weren't sure what we would qualify for. My job became critical to our ability to purchase, and so as we scrimped and saved, I knew I couldn't leave my company without jeopardizing that.

While I was going through this, AP was there. He was the lead on the project, so as my role grew he and I had to spend more and more time together. We also had to share many of the same frustrations and struggles with the poor implementation, after the project went live in May of last year.

Coupled with the communication issues BH and I were having, which left me feeling undesired, my self-esteem was at rock bottom. Though I refused to acknowledge it or speak of it, I was starving for someone to say they noticed and cared about me, and that I was wanted. That, of course, was a recipe for disaster.

What started as getting out of the office for a quick walk to vent escalated so quickly into something so incredibly inappropriate and terrible...I was in a place where I needed affirmation (but was incapable of asking for it), and he gave it freely. As things got worse and worse at work, and as I got more and more dependent on the ego kibbles from him, I lost all sense of what mattered to me and what I stood for. Like a junkie with a drug, I'd do anything to keep the validation coming.

Anyway, I hope that helps to start to answer your question. It's just a start, so please forgive any blame-shifting or minimizing language you may find. It's a work in progress.

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Thedope -

So how are you doing cantsleepcanteat Are you able to start getting more sleep? How is therapy going? Are you able to continue to work?

Thank you for your concern - I appreciate it. I'm hanging in there. Some days are better than others.

I've never slept well, but the last 6 weeks have been awful. I wake up 4-6 times every night. When I dream, half the time it's me having to confess accidental breaking of NC to BH (nightmares I'm actually glad to wake up from). The other half, it's BH doing something small and normal - the things I used to take for granted - putting his hand on my shoulder, or smiling at me. Those, I hate to wake up.

Therapy is good, but slow. I'm impatient, and 50 minutes never seems like enough time. BH has suggested I go twice a week, but I'm concerned about the expense and the time commitment (I'm also paying for his IC, and none of it is covered by insurance, so it's already over $1,000/month for the two of us).

As for work...yes, I have been able to continue, but my performance has been sub-par. HR called me into their office last week, telling me they are worried about me but that I need to step it up, and my boss chewed me out today because he feels like he can't win with me. I haven't been happy there for a long time...right around the time I started talking to AP. I've told them multiple times that I'm not, and even though they try, nothing ever gets better. It's like they care, but not enough to actually do anything, or they are so dysfunctional that they can't. I've wanted to leave for at least a year. However, even though working there hasn't been fulfilling or morale-boosting in ages, I know upper management does care about me, and so I stay out of guilt for leaving them in a mess (of their own making), and because I know they would be accommodating if I needed time off, an adjusted schedule, approval to work remotely, etc...Since I don't know what the future holds for me, now is not a good time to look for a new job...

Thank you for continuing to engage with me. I can tell that it has been frustrating and aggravating for many people, and so I have real gratitude to those of you that are continuing to invest the time and effort.

No problem.

I can say that it hasn't been frustrating for me, as I have no skin in the game. I think the frustration that you see and feel (other than some raw B's who stumble over) is likely sincere concern from W's who were you once. It's hard to see people make the same mistakes as you (I feel the same way with some B's, which is why I continue to come to SI). I feel some anger in those situations because I see myself, and I know the pain that I dealt with because of the shitty way that I handled the affair(s). The same is likely true of the W's here. It may sound weird, but the fact that your BH was so rigid and decisive in the way that he dealt with your infidelity actually gives you a better chance IMHO.

You're saying he knows everything, and I don't have any reason to disbelieve you, so going from there the best advice that I can give you is to get really comfortable with the fact that what you did might be too much already, and no level of remorse, or doing the work, or making it up to him is going to change that.

Your challenge is to do the work anyway.

Again, good luck.

[This message edited by xhz700 at 12:42 PM, August 16th (Wednesday)]

xhz700 - I'm sure you're right. It has to be challenging to see the same mistakes made over and over. I'm truly indebted to everyone here for their investment in helping me (and everyone else) navigate these rough waters as we flail around.

It may sound weird, but the fact that your BH was so rigid and decisive in the way that he dealt with your infidelity actually gives you a better chance IMHO.

Do you mind if I ask why you feel this way? I don't have thoughts on it one way or the other - it's simply the reality I'm living in - but I'm curious.

Get really comfortable with the fact that what you did might be too much already, and no level of remorse, or doing the work, or making it up to him is going to change that.

Your challenge is to do the work anyway.

I'm not comfortable yet, but I'm mostly resigned. BH hasn't wavered on his stance since DDay, and so I'm mentally preparing as best I can while not letting it get in the way of functioning. For the time being, I'm spending my time and energy demonstrating being safe (something I need to do, anyway, to establish healthy boundaries) and attempting to help him heal by listening to him and shouldering as much of the "daily life" load as I can. I likely won't have much time, so I want to do as much as possible in the little I have.

The honest truth is that it probably is too much for him. I'd be shocked if he felt it was worth trying to work it out - he said he feels abused, and I can't blame him. How does a person come back from that, with any semblance of confidence in their choice? He says he doesn't think I'll find anyone who will treat me better than he did, but that he's pretty sure he can find someone to treat him better than I did - and how can I argue with that? He deserves better than who I was. He always has.

The shame is that our communication feels the deepest and most open that it's ever been - I feel closer to what he's feeling now than I can ever remember - right before I'm likely going to lose it. It's sad.

But the work will happen, regardless. Knowing what I do about myself, I'm not satisfied with continuing this way. I'm going to become the type of person I can be proud of.

Do you mind if I ask why you feel this way? I don't have thoughts on it one way or the other - it's simply the reality I'm living in - but I'm curious.

Because he's doing what I didn't. What I FAILED to do.

I was so worried about losing my family, losing half of my time with my 4 year old daughter, that I never stood up for myself. It was really the high point (low point?) of a life filled with missed opportunities to stand up for me. I didn't demand hardly ANYTHING of her, no transparency, nothing. At the time I wanted to meet the AP to tell him to back off, I didn't even demand that she end her friendship with him. I didn't demand the whole truth, though it hurt knowing she had this whole other life that I knew nothing about. I did what I thought was right for my daughter, and I have no regrets there, but knowing what I know now, I would have thrown her ass out of the house and handed her divorce papers in about 24 hours.

He fucked my wife, over a several month affair, and I wanted to meet him and tell him to back off? In essence, I picked up the rug, and handed her a broom.

That lasted about 6 years, and then the wheels started falling off. Things never sat right with me. I found some details that told me that I didn't know the truth, and I demanded it (she said it was behind us, and I needed to stop bringing it up). I failed to foster the right environment for reconciliation after D-Day by putting myself first, and that just led to a slow death of my marriage. I never held her feet to the fire. I wasn't willing to give up the marriage to save it. She stayed in control of the whole situation, exactly as she wanted. (She did give up the friendship after a meeting with MC, how brave)

Now, in my situation, I am dealing with someone with mental health issues. Almost certainly if I had done what your BH is doing, it would have ended in divorce right away. My WW would have absolutely never gone along with any rigid structure of R, as she is completely unable to face her past, or own any damage that she has done in any meaningful way. Yours might end in divorce too, for whatever unique reasons it might.

But, if he facilitated rugsweeping like I did, it would have meant the certain slow death of your relationship whether you stayed married or not.

Rugsweeping is a slow poison

Any dishonesty is a slow poison (and a time bomb)

He deserves better than who I was. He always has.

DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING!

Here is the red flag! He's not God. He's just a person, sounds like a pretty decent one. He shouldn't be on a pedestal. You sound EXACTLY like my STBXWW here. She never got to the point that she understood that I loved her for everything that she was, flaws and all. It's not about deserves, the world is not that black and white, it's about functional and dysfunctional. Next time at your IC, get into the self-esteem issues, because that sentence alone tells me that you have some crippling issues there.

I'm not comfortable yet, but I'm mostly resigned

Get there. Tell him that you are there. Don't be resigned, own it! Your resignation and frustration at losing something that YOU DESTROYED comes off as... I want to say offensive?

(I hope this isn't considered an illegal 2x4) Imagine you set him on fire, and he decided to divorce you (seems reasonable). Can you imagine how trite it would come across as if you were lamenting the loss of your relationship while he was recovering from burns all over his body? I mean, him telling you about how bad everything hurts from the fire really brought you together though... Do you see how frustrating that would be from his perspective?

Now, here is the creme de la creme of things that you need to deal with (unsolicited). You were discovered while you were still in the affair, and had no plans to end it. You'd still be in the affair if it wasn't discovered. You may have yourself convinced that you were looking to end it, but I am not, your BH is not, and neither is anyone else here at SI. The idea itself is insulting. Several years ago my brother just up and quit smoking one day. No medication, no hypnotism, cold turkey. Never had another cigarette. Do you know why? He was done. That's it.

You can't become a different person. That's ridiculous, and I despise that people say things like that. You were an adulterer. You were an abuser. Be the CSCE that isn't those things. Be the CSCE that understands those behaviors for what they are, and won't make room in who she is for that in the future.

Look back on yourself with compassion and understanding, and be better.

[This message edited by xhz700 at 4:30 PM, August 16th (Wednesday)]

The fact BH delayed getting a divorce I find pretty unusual. I wonder if they both wouldn't be better off had divorce been filled ASAP. It just seems like beating a dead horse in many ways, given the length of the affair.

Are you all still sleeping in the same bed?

Xhz - absolutely profound.

And that my friends - is why you keep coming back to your threads...even when its icky and embarrassing and shameful. You come back and talk even when BS's and WS's won't envelope you in cashmere hugs and warm fuzzy affirmations. Because, as you can see, one little nugget of faulty thinking can be identified and lead to a clear path to healthy thinking and authentic being.

You are obviously an intelligent and articulate person with a great deal of potential to be a good person someday if you so choose. I think that losing your husband might be the making of you honestly.

But the work will happen, regardless. Knowing what I do about myself, I'm not satisfied with continuing this way. I'm going to become the type of person I can be proud of.

This is a noble sentiment but only you can hold yourself accountable to your words. It will be up to you do do the deep and uncomfortable work. The reward will be a more authentic life and a shot at a real and stable relationship someday down the road. Best of luck!

xhz700 - I'm sorry to hear your story. Even if the end result was the same, the six years you spent in a dying marriage with the nagging feeling that something wasn't right... It sounds terrible. The danger of rug sweeping is real, and I'm confident BH wouldn't stand for it. He has always been very self-assured, and won't settle for less than what he feels is right. I love that about him, even though that could end up being what makes him decide it's not worth trying to R.

You're right, I do have esteem issues. They are deep-seated and pervasive. I have started to uncover in IC how they have impacted my view of myself and my interactions with others over the years, but they are going to take a lot of work to dislodge.

I don't mean to put BH on a pedestal. He is a wonderful person, and I love him dearly, but he has his own struggles. My comment was prompted by a conversation he and I had last night, where he explained some of the things about me that were selfish and self-absorbed throughout our relationship. But, like you, he followed up those statements with "but I didn't mind! I knew you were selfish, but I loved you." He loved me despite all of it. I felt like the wind was knocked out of me when he said that, and I realized I had been taking his love for granted for so long. Even recalling it to write this makes me tear up. It's a bitter pill to realize how I shut myself off from BH emotionally, and how I wasn't receptive to his demonstrations of love...especially since that (self-induced) emotional isolation was a large factor in why I was so susceptible to the ego stroking from AP.

I wouldn't say I'm frustrated by the loss of the relationship - saddened, yes, but not frustrated. I realize it isn't better, and your advice is equally as applicable, in any case. I know it's about relinquishing control, but it feels like giving up. On some days, I manage it better than others. Yesterday, I was "owning it", and had come to terms with it - I stopped short of saying anything to BH, because I was worried he would feel like I no longer wanted to do the work and that he wasn't worth it to me. Perhaps that was the wrong choice.

I haven't told him about how I feel our communication has been better - those are simply my thoughts. I agree with you that it would be distasteful to bring it up, after him telling me how much I've destroyed his life. I've told him I'm grateful that he's been willing to share his feelings and thoughts with me, and my reactions to them, but that's all.

Yes, I was discovered while still in the affair. Yes, there is a high likelihood I would still be in it, now, and no, I had no plan to end it. I'm not sure what to do about this topic - I hesitate to even go on. There are some things I'm sure I've lied to myself about, in all of this. Many things. And maybe this is one of those things. I don't mean to imply that I'd magically grow a spine and cut it off. But for every story of your brother quitting cold turkey, there are dozens of people who want to quit but aren't able to for months or years. They go back and forth, they try one day and fall off the wagon the next, they get stressed and start again...Even when it's literally killing them. What I can say is this (and it might not be enough) -- In the beginning, talking to AP was fun. It was easy, and uplifting, and made me feel good. It soothed a wounded part of my self-image. There were a few times where he would make me upset, or I would make him upset, but they were relatively short-lived and infrequent. Starting in May, the times when one of us was upset started to outweigh the "fun, easy" times, and got worse as the weeks went on. I felt weighed down by the constant reassuring -- either him reassuring me, or (more often) me reassuring him. On top of that, the time demands of the affair were difficult to sustain. I was struggling to juggle all of my responsibilities, and that meant I was neglecting everything. I was disappointing everyone, which was the toxic feeling that primed me for this in the first place. It was mentally exhausting. No, I had no plan. But by the time the affair was discovered, I was in a worse mental state than I was when it started, and I was starting to realize that.

I don't say this to make you insulted. I don't say it to minimize what I did, or even to convince you. I've come to terms that it doesn't matter what I was thinking, because I didn't act on it. I'm not sure that if I had acted on it, that it would make any difference. I don't have an articulate enough explanation of my emotional hangups to be able to explain my mental state, and I've been tempted on more than one occasion to give in to the pressure and say "fine". But it wouldn't be truthful, at least, not as I understand things now. Maybe I have myself convinced, as you say, and if I realize that I will confess it immediately. I've spent a lot of time searching for some epiphany -- actually hoping I could find something to align with what everyone seems so adamant about, so I could stop having to disagree and making people so upset (there's that conflict avoidance). But I'm not there. I'm sorry, but I'm not - at least not yet. I'm going to keep searching, but until I find something that tells a different story, I can't say anything different.

Your last two paragraphs really hit me. I assure you, I am doing everything I can to ensure there is no "room" in me for this. Absolutely everything. I'm horrified that it was there, to begin with. I would have sworn it wasn't, right up until the day I proved it was...

The last sentence makes my throat sting and my eyes tear up every time I read it. I will be better. I do not consider there to be any other option. But I don't know how to have compassion or understanding for myself. I never have, and I don't even know where to start. My therapist is helping with that - the consistent exposure to her compassion and understanding is acclimating me, kind of, but turning that inward is a real challenge.

Thedope - What makes you say that it's unusual? There are many people here with similar stories who are much further out from DDay and have not filed. General wisdom is that major life decisions should not be made in the midst of traumatic events, and the betrayal from an affair is incredibly traumatic. That's not to say that there are not a lot of people who choose to divorce immediately, and for whom that's not the right choice - I'm sure there are - and that's certainly a likely eventual outcome for me, but I don't find our situation unusual...

No, we are not sleeping in the same bed. We haven't in over 6 weeks.

sassylee - Yes, this has been an extraordinarily powerful lesson in the importance of coming back. Even when (especially when) I most want to run away. I need to own the discomfort and really absorb it.

antlered - Thank you. I prefer to think that this experience will be the making of me, one way or the other - it's the only way to ensure all of this pain isn't for nothing - but losing BH would certainly be a powerful reminder of the price to be paid for complacency.

I think deep down, your H wants to R. But he's conflicted bc before this, he thought there was absolutely no way you'd cheat. And you've proven him wrong. And even if you KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that you never will again, he now knows that he was wrong about you the first time.

It sucks, and I'm sorry you're going thru this.

CECS, you are doing some good work here, you really are.

Regarding letting go of the outcome...instead of thinking of it as giving up, think of it as process vs product. It's the journey - not the destination. You are doing this hard work of self discovery and change not to manipulate the end result, but for the sake of self discovery and change itself.

Letting go of the outcome doesn't mean you don't want to be married to your BH - it means you trust him to make the best decision for him, irrespective of what you want or how it impacts you. It's incredibly selfless and demonstrates the willingness to change and consider your BH before yourself.

[This message edited by sassylee at 11:46 PM, August 16th (Wednesday)]

I'll start off by saying that I do think that you are doing well. Simply by demonstrating that you were confused in your first few posts, you showed that you were aware that something wasn't quite right. My STBXW was sure right away that she'd never let anything like this happen again. She knew all of the mistakes that she made and now that she knew what they were she was trustworthy. (surprise, she did) You aren't really anything like my WW, which is why I am trying to help. I hope that my perspective as a BH who isn't still raw from betrayal is worth something.

But for every story of your brother quitting cold turkey, there are dozens of people who want to quit but aren't able to for months or years. They go back and forth, they try one day and fall off the wagon the next, they get stressed and start again...Even when it's literally killing them.

This goes precisely to the point I was trying to make. I would argue that the people that you are talking about, the ones that fail in quitting, simply weren't done smoking. He smoked because he wanted to smoke, and stopped when he was done smoking. For him, it wasn't a matter of willpower, he just didn't want it anymore. You were going to be in the affair as long as you wanted to be. And as much shame as there probably is in that statement, it's the truth. I'll put it to you as simply as I can... the truth can't hurt you, or your marriage, or your BH anymore.

Now, I know you might take my story about my brother as an oversimplification. I myself struggle with addiction. I am a codependent, and a bad (good?) one. If there was a codependent Olympics, I'd probably be a household name. For me, it's simply a matter of understanding what I am, and what that means (that was the hard part) then coming to terms with what it means about how I handle myself. Simply put, my mind and heart feed me bad information when it comes to boundaries and caretaking. The solution for me (and I'd recommend this for you, or anyone really) was mindfulness. Slowing down and being in the moment. Think before I speak or act.

I realize it isn't better, and your advice is equally as applicable, in any case. I know it's about relinquishing control, but it feels like giving up

I know it sounds weird, but giving up on your relationship is sort of what you should be doing right now. You need to be working on you. If your intent is to run a marathon with your husband, you had better get in shape for it.

It's a bitter pill to realize how I shut myself off from BH emotionally, and how I wasn't receptive to his demonstrations of love...especially since that (self-induced) emotional isolation was a large factor in why I was so susceptible to the ego stroking from AP.

I was disappointing everyone, which was the toxic feeling that primed me for this in the first place

Nothing to say, other than that both of these show excellent insight.

Letting go of the outcome doesn't mean you don't want to be married to your BH - it means you trust him to make the best decision for him, irrespective of what you want or how it impacts you. It's incredibly selfless and demonstrates the willingness to change and consider your BH before yourself.

I feel that even though I am a good communicator, I can be a little wordy, so I am always impressed when someone can condense a thought like this. sassylee nailed it here. Read this over and over.