SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

So, forgive me for the flowery title (pun intended). But here I am. I'm gonna gather up all my spread out posts, and I am specifically looking for advice from women, though I would never turn up my nose at input from men.

So, Thursday night (Sept. 20th) I just had to leave the house. I couldn't be in there knowing that STBEW was sending pictures to her partners and giggling about it. So I showered, shaved, dressed up-ish (clean and presentable but not flashy), put on cologne and got the hell out of Dodge. Went to a few bars, and while I was at the first one, ended up chatting with a lady that I had matched with on Facebook's dating app.

I asked her if she wanted to go get some mozzarella sticks from Applebees or something, because we hit it off pretty good, and she declined, saying:

"That sounds -awesome-, but I have to work from tomorrow morning until tomorrow night late. Now, if you had said Buffalo Wings, I'd probably have been down, but if I go to Applebees, I'll have a few more drinks and I need to not be tired tomorrow. I can't be bringing anyone home. Not tonight."

So that was a massive boost to my ego. I posted about it on here, as I was sort of unsure if this was a positive sign that we clicked and she was digging me, or if it was her letting me down gently. Most of my rejection from the ex were solid 'No's or starting fights, so I'm a little inexperienced with picking those out, and I don't want to push boundaries.

Well Friday I went barhopping with a friend, and I didn't message her. However, I didn't really feel like chatting with many ladies, but I did anyways, talking to a few. I kept thinking back to the first lady, even though she's not my usual 'type'. I normally go for slender, short, petite ladies, and this lady is taller (not as tall as me), thicker, and more full bodied. I believe the kids call it "thicc." And damn, she thiccer than a bowl of oatmeal.

Anyways, I chatted with a few ladies, wasn't feeling it, and just spent the night drinking with my buddy. The night was a blast; hit five or six bars, closed the last one out, went to Denny's, almost got into a fistfight with a REALLY drunk fratboy (he got pissed I didn't want to engage with his drunken slurring) before his buddies dragged him out, and generally had shenanigans. Good times.

Well, yesterday (Saturday, Sept 21), I got to game night early, and I was like, yo, I've got some time to kill, may as well message that lady. So I did, even though I was nursing a hangover, and she responded right away. Asked her how her busy day had been, and we instantly clicked. We talked about kids, we talked about home ownership, we talked about local stuff, movies, etc. Turns out we're both huge fans of the movie Anchorman, and neither of us have watched it for a while. We even both talked about our exes, which I HAD resolved not to do, but she is also a BS (her ex was verbally abusive, NPD, and serial cheater).

When I displayed knowledge of technology, she was like, "Oh... oh.. you could be useful to me..." and we'd drop occasional innuendos at each other. She told me a few times I had her rolling with giggles on the other end, but I kept it respectful. She even asked me why I hadn't commented on her profile picture (which is just the hint of suggestive), and I said that it was because I wanted to be respectful, and those thoughts and opinions could be shared at a more personal and appropriate time. She liked that answer.

So, the last bit she said to me was as follows;

HER: Its almost my bedtime. I gotta work in the morning

ME: Alright then. Thanks for staying up and chatting with me. I hope you had as much fun as I did! Rest well!

HER: It was great talking with you. You seem like a good dude. Talk soon maybe?

ME: I'll message tomorrow and hassle you about Anchorman. 😛

Now, I took that as she legitimately enjoyed herself and was eager to hear back from me. However, I know that I tend to either a) read more into things than is there, or b) have trouble trusting things that should be straightforward. I don't want to expect too much, but I ALSO don't want to be that guy she talks about later like "Jeez, I was putting out every sign, THROWING myself at him, and he didn't see it! Men are so oblivious!"

Anyways, we have a tentative date lined up for me bringing over Anchorman, hooking it up to her TV, and watching it over mozzarella sticks and buffalo wings. I figure I'll suggest we meet at a bar first so she can figure out if I'm a psychopath, and if she's comfortable, we'll move to her place. If she wants to watch the movie and I go home, great. If she wants me to stay over, great. If she wants me to "stay over," (big air quotes here) great.

Human courting rituals are goddamn weird.

[This message edited by Incarnate at 10:54 AM, September 22nd (Sunday)]

Take this for what it's worth from the old married lady.

Have you talked to an attorney and found out implications if you start dating?

Are you a little concerned about the message you are sending your kids? Being that you are just starting IHS and really don't seem to have plans to D in the works.

Dont say they won't know cause they are smarter than that.

Dont fool yourself either. What about some time for you to heal you and figure put who the hell you actually are now?

The reason I am always pushing newly separated D'd people for the above is it takes time to heal and if not done properly you are just going to keep repeating the same mistakes over and over. Learn to be happy and complete with yourself. Then you won't pick out people who may treat you poorly and you will also know that being alone isnt a bad thing. Therefore your tolerance for shitty behavior is minimal.

Have you talked to an attorney and found out implications if you start dating?

Are you a little concerned about the message you are sending your kids? Being that you are just starting IHS and really don't seem to have plans to D in the works.

Don't say they won't know cause they are smarter than that.

Don't fool yourself either. What about some time for you to heal you and figure put who the hell you actually are now?

California is a no fault state. I could have, theoretically, walked in to see my ex engaging in her physical affair, and it would have no bearing on custody or assets.

Now, my children already know that mommy and daddy are separated, and that Mommy found her new partners first. They knew that Daddy was now free to go on dates because he's single now. They know I'm going out to spend time with friends, and they're happy that I'm happier for it. I'm not going to bring anyone home, but if they know I'm dating, well, my youngest is nine. My oldest is 16. They're aware of the situation.

Part of figuring out who I am is to figure out what I want. I am not looking for anything serious or long term, and I've made that abundantly clear to this lady, she understands, and she's still onboard. I want to be able to see what it's like and who I am spending time around people, because I don't want to be an introvert, I know that. It's not who I was before I got married, and it's not who I want to be now, I know that much. I am spending time with friends, with family, and with my hobbies, interests, and work. I am studying a lot and I am going to IC. Many people are saying I'm recovering faster than they thought I would; maybe it's because this is the second time, and I told her that a second time would be it. There's no waffling or indecision.

I think the basis of most of my excitement is because it's been a long time since I've felt chemistry, and there's been some definite chemistry, and I -love- that. The click, the falling in sync with another person, the being on the same page, the smile you get when you see their message. Not love or a crush by any stretch of the word, but just two people clicking. I love that feeling.

The reason I am always pushing newly separated D'd people for the above is it takes time to heal and if not done properly you are just going to keep repeating the same mistakes over and over. Learn to be happy and complete with yourself. Then you won't pick out people who may treat you poorly and you will also know that being alone isn't a bad thing. Therefore your tolerance for shitty behavior is minimal.

I do totally get that. I don't expect to have any sort of serious committed relationship for some time. If it's with this woman, if we stay casual for a while, and when I'm ready we get more serious, awesome. I have ZERO expectations for this. We might just have dinner and never talk again. We might hook up and be regular FWBs. We might be a ONS. We might just be movie buddies. We might be mutual booty calls. At this point, none of those things are anything I have ever experienced, and I want to experience those things. And if things go south for either of us, well, it would be an easy break. If we find someone that gets either of us twitterpated, again, no worries, no big deal.

I am looking for some fun, some enjoyment, and some happiness with the company of good people for as long as it lasts. Definitely not looking for a new wife. Not yet, maybe not ever. I dunno.

[This message edited by Incarnate at 1:33 PM, September 22nd (Sunday)]

It's good that you aren't looking for anything serious with her, because...

She even asked me why I hadn't commented on her profile picture (which is just the hint of suggestive), and I said that it was because I wanted to be respectful, and those thoughts and opinions could be shared at a more personal and appropriate time.

I don't like a)that she has a suggestive profile pic (yuck), and b) that she was fishing for a compliment/kibbles about it. That's a bit of a red flag for me right off the bat.

I don't like a)that she has a suggestive profile pic (yuck), and b) that she was fishing for a compliment/kibbles about it. That's a bit of a red flag for me right off the bat.

That's fair. She does boudoir photography, and the picture was from one of her shoots. It was a cute, attractive picture, and it was about 3 hours into our conversation, which was flirty back and forth, but I get where you're coming from. I personally took it as just a bit more flirting, but I understand.

I am enjoying the flirting, to be fair. I'm enjoying being able to flirt with someone without it being immediately shot down, like flirting is some sort of big bad wrong thing to do. That's what I got whenever I'd flirt with my ex, and now I listen to her flirt with her partners all day long.

Well, piss on that. It's my turn. I love flirting.

[This message edited by Incarnate at 8:40 AM, September 23rd (Monday)]

I'm a pretty open minded female - I'm also into photography (both sides of the camera )

She sounds interested in you -

What I would be careful of is how you getting involved with someone will affect your divorce. Your soon to be ex seems like someone who would use this against you - and face it, courts are geared towards the wives (mostly). I would not do anything with another female unless it was in public where there are witnesses that can attest that you were just being friendly and not sexually involved until your D is final. Especially if you are looking to use alienation of affection with her APs.

However, if you do want to do something with someone before the D is final - tread softly and don't latch onto the first female to show you affection. I made this mistake and ended up with an abusive 2nd husband (total thing including divorce was 6 months though).

Go and be friends...and if it develops into more great - but don't settle with the first one that shows you affection.

What I would be careful of is how you getting involved with someone will affect your divorce. Your soon to be ex seems like someone who would use this against you - and face it, courts are geared towards the wives (mostly). I would not do anything with another female unless it was in public where there are witnesses that can attest that you were just being friendly and not sexually involved until your D is final. Especially if you are looking to use alienation of affection with her APs.

Absolutely. Unfortunately, California is a No-Fault state. As mentioned above, I could walk in on her having a three way with her APs and it would not have any legal bearing on the divorce. Same with if she consistently went on public dates, etc. Ostensibly, it should be the same for me. However, I am keeping it under my hat, for the most part, whereas she is having her APs commenting on social media, etc. I figure there's just no reason to flaunt it. I'll seek my happiness in a way that maintains my dignity, and the dignity of the person I'm with.

I am enjoying the flirting, to be fair. I'm enjoying being able to flirt with someone without it being immediately shot down, like flirting is some sort of big bad wrong thing to do. That's what I got whenever I'd flirt with my ex, and now I listen to her flirt with her partners all day long.

Well, piss on that. It's my turn. I love flirting.

And this is fair as well. I'm glad you are receptive to the perspectives of others, and that you are going into this with what seems to be a light open mind. You've been put through hell, and some of your earlier posts had me very concerned for you. We've all been to those dark places and it's very hard to pull ourselves out of there. If flirting is going to help you heal, and not affect your divorce, and not put your already fragile heart at risk, then I say go out and have fun. Continue to be honest with these women about your intentions. And as always, be careful physically as well.

You're going to get through this, my friend. It's all about self-care right now.

[This message edited by WhoTheBleep at 12:10 PM, September 23rd (Monday)]

Incarnate, shes into you. I dated while in Divorcing, its okay. YOu live in Cali, and the courts don't care.

As for this lady, if all you write is true, she's into you, so go for it. Stop thinking too much. Its dating, and you'll find out soon enough, its a lot more casual than you think. Just have fun with it. Dating will not hurt your divorce in the state of CA, although it might infuriate the STBXW, and that might make life a little more difficult.

no fault state?

Call the woman and go over...see what happens!

Heck I met my current FWH while I was hiding out from my abusive XH!

Enjoy yourself! You aren't planning on introducing them to your kids just yet, so no harm no foul.

Why not partake in fun :)

This is my perspective so take it for what it is. You are still in house separation, no plan of attack for divorce yet (well not true but haven't filed yet) 5 kids, 2 with special needs. Those kids see all this. Moms doing her thing with the texans texting back and forth and Dad is going out getting hammered some nights. When you're out, is she there watching over them? If shes in her now fabulous own life of delusional bullshit where are the kids that need a parent. I get you want to go explore this now new world but your kids are going through this too. Some may agree or disagree with me but with your current situation as it stands, those kids need you now. Someone told me at the beginning of my shit, focus on yourself and your kids, then focus on your dick. Taking time to find you will pay off dude but it takes time. Just my thoughts.

I agree with J707,

No shade, please allow me to explain-

While I know what it is like to have your self esteem in the gutter, I can tell you from experience that it is a bad idea. About 12 years ago, my husband decided to split on me and I briefly dated (bar thing) some guy. The ego stroke was nice, but it got creepy and red flags were everywhere. I cut him off and in hindsight, I realized he was displaying negative behaviors my husband does, but WORSE and very early on. The guy almost went fatal attraction, after 3 months... passive-aggressive and wayyy too needy, when I told him to scoot. He was another narc. He had victim mentality....narcs will claim they were the abused in past relationships, just something to keep in mind.

I also realized that I was doomed to repeat this self destructive cycle, while trying to run away from myself and my problems. I have learned the hard way, that I have to learn to love myself, as cliche as it sounds. No one can fill the void, that stems from childhood and years of marital abuse/neglect.

Your wife is a narc and there is a lot of healing that has to be done, on your part. A woman (or man)that willingly dates a technically married man, is most likely narcisstic, just like your wife. There is research to back this, in terms of narc abuse. It seems fun in the beginning, but that void will never be filled. It perpetuates a cycle and before you know it, there were a lot of nobodies and more lost years...It prolongs your healing and you deserve better.

[This message edited by DashboardMadonna at 12:59 AM, September 24th (Tuesday)]

To J707 and DashboardMadonna (love the name; not sure why, but it is very evocative)

I understand both of your stances. My initial gut reaction is to argue, sidestep, and justify so that I can try and convince you two that what I want is reasonable and valid, but even thinking about how I would phrase those arguments sounds a little selfish and immature to put into words.

I think a lot of it comes from the decade or so of sexual dysfunction between the STBEW and I, as well as the supremely sexual nature of my betrayal (all of ours, really) and the desire to reclaim a part of myself that I feel was torn away and discarded/given to someone else (two someones, really).

So yeah. I understand what you are both saying, and you make valid points. I am FINALLY getting another counseling session tomorrow (my last one was scheduled on the 19th but was canceled, so it's been since the 11th that I've gone) and I will bring up a lot of things with my therapist; the fact that I've doubled up on my medication, my actions in the last two weeks, and my desires moving forward. I'll get her input and weigh it out as well.

Thank you both for acting as a philosophical foil.

Halftime2017 and MamaDragon:

Thank you both for your input. Right now, it is super casual; this evening, for example, instead of chatting with her all night like I have the last new nights, I just sent her a message this evening saying that I would be working on my book all night but I wanted to say that I hoped she had a good Monday and Happy Equinox. As I was messaging her, my oldest daughter and my 4th daughter came in to my room to chat/spend some time with me, so I downsized the window, and both of them asked who I was talking to.

I don't hide things from them when asked, so I said that it was a lady I was chatting with and opened the window back up. There was nothing inappropriate or overly flirty on the screen (we were talking about holiday decorations), and I showed them a picture of her. Both of them said that she was SUPER cute (and my oldest said she was WAY cuter than my ex's new partners, lol) and would make a good girlfriend. I said it was nothing serious and we were just chatting for now, and then they both agreed I should take her out to Chinese food.

Little matchmakers, lol.

Anyways, that's where things are tonight. I'll keep this thread updated with my thoughts, feelings, and interactions. I know that I need to be able to feel whole and fulfilled by myself if I am going to truly heal, and that trying to fill holes with other people is an unhealthy coping mechanism, but the way I am approaching this whatever-it-is with this lady isn't trying to force her into my emptiness to complete myself, but to simply experience someone else who isn't a toxic, caustic, selfish, destructive force in my life, to reclaim a piece of myself that has been reduced, belittled, and chipped away over the years. I don't expect it to be super long term and I don't think the lady does either; both of us have a lot of responsibilities to take care of (she works two jobs, and even though she has no kids, she is very active in her godson/nephew's life), so there hasn't even been a real date yet, nor a solid time set for one.

My little weekend of barhopping and so on was fun and I think kind of therapeutic, but not going to be a habit... it's expensive, time consuming, and I'd rather not make it a lifestyle. I'm still happy that I met this lady, as having someone I can have a positive conversation with (and a bit of flirting) has hugely helped my confidence and general mood, and my kids, friends, and family can tell that I'm happier.

I just got more sleep than I've gotten in one stretch since DDay 2; about five hours. I feel good. I feel level. It's about time for me to take my meds, and the house is asleep. I'm going to get some work done.

[This message edited by Incarnate at 1:40 AM, September 24th (Tuesday)]

Crossposted from the Menz thread and the TMI thread, with a few relevance edits.

Yesterday was... rough

Had a therapy session. Started off okay, catching up my therapist with what has gone on over the last 2 weeks,me choosing to increase my dosage of propranalol myself (which she enthusiastically approved of due to her saying she could immediately see the effects; different mode of dress, different way I carried myself, steady and intense eye contact, etc... she said that I immediately felt like a more powerful person this time around). She also approved of me going out and meeting the woman I met, as she said it seemed to rapidly rebuild my confidence. At the end of the session, she told me that I had probably the worst story she's ever heard as a trauma therapist, but my progress was amazingly rapid. That might just be some supportive phrasing she uses with all of her patients, but if so, it did the job, and I felt better.

Then we got into the EMDR. We didn't have much time, but it was.... intense. Stressful. I was able to push through without disassociating, but the instant I left the office, I was in a disassociative cloud for the rest of the day. However, the lady I've been talking to messaged me, instead of me messaging her, so I think I've made an impression. We ended up chatting solid for six hours. LOTS of heavy flirting, lots of pic trading, and she showed me some of her more suggestive boudoir photography (nothing nude, but still some pretty attractive stuff; she is very sex positive, and so am I), and I commented on one of the pictures in particular; she was laying on a bed with a sheer white sheet partially covering her (enough to retain the vestiges of modesty), her head resting on a bright red pillow. The angle was from up by her face, shooting down across her body, her face turned towards the camera, eyes closed.

ME:

So, we're looking at the pose here, the color composition, the lighting, it has a LOT of subtle elements to it that I really appreciate.

The pose itself, with your legs spread and the position of your hands and arms, that is definitely suggestive.

But then the angle of the shot puts -you- in the focus, your expression, instead of your attributes. It doesn't turn you into a thing, a vessel, it keeps you as a person as the subject. It changes the entire mood of the photo.

The eyes are drawn to your face and not your body.

HER:

You have a way with words

ME:

I am a writer, after all. bows

Anyone, anyhow, can photograph a nude body and be like "Look, here is an attractive person who is naked. Find your satisfaction."

But there is an art to finding a way to do that that brings more to the table, that turns it from just an enticing photo into something that is more, something that has extra layers to it.

HER:

So....you think I'm attractive? 💁‍♀️🤣

ME:

Well, yeah. I mean, did I not seem to?

We went from there to get goofy and giggly together, trading pictures of us making dorky/screwed up faces into the camera, and the conversation resumed, but much warmer and flirtier after that. It sort of pulled me back in from my disassociation.

It feels good to be wanted and desired, or even just accepted again, to not feel like my face and my body and my mind and my personality are heaps of rotting garbage.

In any case, we have a for-sure date set up for tomorrow night at 6:00 at Applebees for drinks and dinner. I'm working to make sure I am a safe and supportive person without being too clingy or attached. The propranalol's mild detachment seems to be assisting in that last part pretty well. I like her, I like talking to her, and we definitely have, like I said, that 'click' I've been missing forever, but again, I'm not all twitterpated or crushy about her. It's interesting, new, and novel to develop an attraction as a mature adult and not a teenager.

[This message edited by Incarnate at 8:13 AM, September 25th (Wednesday)]

Good luck Incarnate.

From her response, shes digging for compliments. You play your cards correctly tonight at 6, you'll be getting some

From her response, shes digging for compliments.

Absolutely agree with this.

You play your cards correctly tonight at 6, you'll be getting some

Ick. Yuck. Come on, man...

Ahh, find an insecure woman who needs external validation, and put your dick in her vagina as soon as possible. Isn't that why most of us are here on this site?

I'm not sure which thread it was, as Incarnate updates are on many threads, but WornDown nailed it about the fact that he shouldn't be dating at all. I'm changing all of my answers to agree with that. Sorry, Incarnate. I do wish you true healing, which comes from within. As in solo strength, void of cheap sex with insecure women.

Alright. I've had this on my mind all day, and I refrained from responding so that I wouldn't give out a knee-jerk defensive response, which I almost did a few times.

Before I say anything, I really do appreciate all of you. I think it's awesome that we do look out for each other and we do speak from our own experiences to help each other out in these incredibly tough times we're going through.

To Halftime2017: While I do appreciate the enthusiasm, that isn't really what I am seeking tomorrow. I'm going to be honest, I probably wouldn't turn it down, but it's not the end goal of the evening. All I want from tomorrow night is some fun, some smiles, some laughs, and a respite.

And you know what, I had a half a book typed up down there. It was all irrelevant.

To all of you: I appreciate your advice, I understand your points, and I will act accordingly. I am still going to have dinner and drinks with her, because I asked her to come out, and she really is a fun and pleasant person to talk to, and she would make a good friend, flirty or not. Even if nothing happens (which I reiterate is fine with me), I only seek to enjoy my time with her at whatever mutual level we reach.

I will crosspost this to the other updated areas (I am actually working on consolidating my wild posting habits... all other updates will be on this thread).

Stay away from rebounds. You don't need the xtra pain and suffering those bring.

I say go for it. You can’t get hurt anymore than you already are and you might have a ton of fun. For me the best way to tell if someone is being honest is if they introduce you to their family and friends. Keeping each other a secret is a red flag to me. Just have fun. Don’t expect a miracle. But do expect to enjoy it.

I can see clearly now the rain has gone

I can see all obstacles in my way

Gone are the dark clouds that had me blind

It’s gonna be a bright, bright sunshiny day

Jimmy Cliff

I have been debating on whether to post anything, but decided I would. Take it for what it's worth - we are internet strangers after all, and I think a lot of BS's feel like amateur psychologists from having to unpack so much baggage in our own situations. At least I know that is true for me

Please just be very careful Incarnate. I totally get wanting to reclaim that part and to be wanted and desired and flirt and all of it. I think every BS on here absolutely understands your feelings on that! But please be brutally honest with yourself about where you are at mentally and emotionally. I know from my own experience that it's hard to tell when you are in the middle of it sometimes - which is why you have friends and loved ones to help get your vision straightened out when you can't do it yourself.

Just a few things have kinda made my radar ping reading through all of this.

1. You have expressly said more than once that you are after an NSA-type arrangement. I had one before the xwh and I got together for a few months. I can’t tell you anything about the guy – I don’t know where he grew up or if he had siblings, I don’t know if he had pets, I don’t know what kind of car he drove or what his favorite food was. I don't know if he was ever married or how many girlfriends he had. He also didn’t know any of that about me. I didn’t want to know that stuff, because NSA just meant we were two healthy consenting adults that shared a really nice physical chemistry for a while. You getting to know her and trading hours worth of intense conversation and flirting and talking about exes... that sounds very strings attached IMHO.

2. You married early and I’m in no way faulting you on that. However, most people do the dating/fooling around/figuring out about who they want to be with in their late teens and early 20’s, which you skipped because you were married. Some of the posting you are doing about this lady just feels very teenager-y to me – very crush-y. Look I am not trying to tell you not to be excited about it or not to do it, but just bear in mind that this part of your psyche is just now coming out into the world and needs time to mature to the level at which the rest of your brain exists.

3. You have mentioned she is a BS as well. How long ago was it? I ask because there is a monumentally HUGE difference between 6 months ago vs. 5 years ago. As a BW that is less than a year from dday1, less than 2 months from dday2, less than 2 months from being S, and less than a month from having filed for D – My life and head are complicated af right now. Incarnate, you are still living with the stbx, you have 5 children (two of which are special needs), so far I haven’t seen any posts from you on any sort of plan to get physically separated or divorced... that’s a complicated mess. Not of your making, but still needs to be cleaned up before adding more messiness. And dating, while fun and all, is messy and complicated; any time you bring another person into the mix it complicates stuff, no matter how much click there is.

For me? The last fucking thing I want right now is to take on a ‘fixer-upper’. I just got rid of one of those and am going to take time to find me again. And will do, because next time I get into a relationship you can bet your ass that I will not put up with being treated the way my xwh did. In order to do that, I have to cull through my baggage and do the work on myself – and until I have, I am not even thinking of dating. I spent 9 years valuing him and my marriage over my own self and my own needs and I will not EVER give someone that level of myself again because it was not healthy for me. For me to get involved with someone else right now would not be fair to them and would short-change me and my healing.

IMHO, I see a pretty big red flag in a woman that is also a BW taking on something like your situation right now. To me, that doesn’t seem like she has unpacked that baggage and is just looking for the next Mr. Right to make her feel all better. I don’t know her so I may be way off base, but still just something about that is making my spidey senses tingle. Her fishing for compliments etc. Take that with a grain of salt - I am very mistrustful right now, but TBH all you know is what she has told you and as all us BS's know (to our collective detriment) people who want what they want are more than capable of deceit.

[This message edited by EllieKMAS at 12:40 PM, September 26th (Thursday)]