SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Wow. What a fight. Winner is all sexes lose.

I’ve recently read how many males perceived wayward wives. And, how the wife must “repair” the relationship by not only doing what the wayward did with their AP, but also offering sex acts beyond, including threesomes, simply for helping the wounded, male betrayed. It’s normal male healing.

These posts were mostly from males. Mostly given with “I’m a man” here’s the truth.

Yet, I’ve also read where a whore gave a great blowjob, and a male offered advice how the betrayed female could learn better “blow job techniques”. Cause, ya know, ya gotta keep your skills up after your man cheats.

Women are whores. Men are just naturally looking to spread,

Women should be punished, men should be understood.

Men know they have affairs for sex, women just don’t get it.

Is this advice or agenda?

[This message edited by Greeneyesbluezy at 4:34 PM, February 13th (Tuesday)]

We live in a man's world and there are definitely double standards. If my husband feels that a bj from a chickenhead is worth losing me over, then so be it. I refuse to compete with that piece of trash.

It is up to the individual to decide if they want to demean and degrade themselves any further. The WS has every right to set boundaries and decide how much they will put up with.

You know GEBzy - bear with me (I think its my advancing age but every point I make seems to come with a story these days!),

I grew up thinking my Dad was a progressive liberal thinker. I never once heard him say a negative thing about people of other cultures and in fact had a respectful relationship with our Pakistani neighbours for most of my childhood. I didn’t realize my Dad had a “thing” about people of colour until grade 10, when I asked a handsome Pakistani classmate to the Sadie Hawkins dance. Boy - did he let it rip - his true feelings about non-whites.... It blew me away and truly shocked me. Years later, my sister brought home a sweet, black young man at 16 and it started again.

My sister and I tried...we used every argument we could think of to convince him his thinking was archaic and outdated and wrong...so wrong! But no matter what we said, or which examples we used from his life - he had a fact to back it up “I read a study in the New England Journal of blah blah blah that said women who date black men die of cancer at young ages” or “I know at least 10 women (which always remained nameless) who were abused by men of middle eastern culture and they all had their children stolen by the husbands family!” or some other ridiculous claim from this mysterious source that my sister and I were powerless to refute (preinternet).

We concluded that nothing we said, no article from our school texts and no real life example would change his mind. All it did was cause conflict and made my sister and I distraught. So we stopped trying to convince him he was a racist.

Does this mean we allow him to say ignorant things about other ethnicities/skin colour? No way. We tell him “Thats a racist comment and it embarrasses me. If you say that in front of your grandchildren, they will think less of you so please consider your words carefully”. We point out his faulty thinking because to just ignore it seems so wrong. It needs to be spoken “Universe - we know thats racist!” But we stopped trying to change his mind.

Someday - maybe something will give him that epiphany but it sure as hell won’t be something my sis or I say...we’ve tried and made ourselves sick doing so...

Back to your post. Your frustration is understood. I get it. Do you think you will change anyone’s minds who firmly holds to that mindset? You will not...I will not...especially when they travel in packs reinforcing each other’s thinking. Does that mean we give up and don’t speak out? Nope. We declare it to whoever is reading “This is wrong. Ugly thinking such as this is evidence of an unhealthy spirit.” I endeavour to offer an alternative viewpoint so someone else reading won’t get sucked into that vacuum of thinking. I wish more betrayed men would speak out to demonstrate it is not inherent to males to believe such ugliness but I imagine they tire of being called a cuckold or told to find their balls. I imagine its much harder for those men to speak up than it is for you and I.

Anyway, I feel your pain but have no solution to offer...

[This message edited by sassylee at 5:19 PM, February 13th (Tuesday)]

I’ve recently read how many males perceived wayward wives. And, how the wife must “repair” the relationship by not only doing what the wayward did with their AP, but also offering sex acts beyond, including threesomes, simply for helping the wounded, male betrayed. It’s normal male healing.

OK, I'll bite. :) Yes, I said that, and I stand by it. We would say exactly the same thing to a WH who came here and told a story where he took his AP out to expensive dinners every night, but never took his wife, even though she wanted to go and expressed interest in fine dining. We would tell him, or at least I would; "Find a better restaurant than you took the AP to and go there". Or vacations, find a more exotic or remote location and go there. Or gifts, you gave her a 1ct ring, give you wife a 2. And I would absolutely stand by any of those "punishments" (which is what that thread turned into; I fail to see how sex with the person you love is punishment but, so be it) are reasonable and just given the hypothetical WH's actions.

Threesomes, if you saw my post, might be over the line. Yes, I think it would help a lot of BH's, it would probably help me, but there are issues with it that are obvious, it's another person, it's cheating, and it could be done just to hurt the other person. That's where I draw the line; and no, I do not support that a normal and just action. But everyone has different views on it, and I can understand, if not agree, with those who think that's a reasonable response to help a BH (or W, if it's something she wants) heal.

Yet, I’ve also read where a whore gave a great blowjob, and a male offered advice how the betrayed female could learn better “blow job techniques”. Cause, ya know, ya gotta keep your skills up after your man cheats.

I've read countless stories of men with cheating wives where the narrative turns into "If you were more emotionally open, or if you'd listened to her more, this wouldn't have happened". And, as much as we all hate to admit it, there's a the very least a hint of truth in this. That does not make the A right, not by a long shot, but it does mean it could have been prevented if the BS took different actions. And, after an A, we all say that it's reasonable to spend more time on the relationship, spend time in counseling, WORK at it harder, for both the BS and WS. That's all I was saying, up your game. And I'd say the same thing to men, if the AP was writing love letters all day to your WW, maybe you should try to write some too. Because it's obvious that's important to her. Same thing with BJs; that's the crux of the argument.

Women should be punished, men should be understood.

I never said this, and I don't read this anywhere here. If you provide some quotes, it would be helpful.

Men know they have affairs for sex, women just don’t get it.

I believe this is true, and yes, I also believe that women do not get it; if they did, most would never enter into an A. Frankly, most would avoid relationships with men, but, most especially A's which are almost certain to be a very one sided relationship if both partners aren't just looking to have sex. And I've said, many times, if a woman is looking for a toss in the hay, I get it, an A makes sense. You'll get that from an A. Where I think women "don't get it" is that there are a lot of men out there who will say anything to have sex with you, and I think that a lot of women believe the lines and wind up in an A that doesn't give them anything they wanted. Unless, of course, what they wanted was sex in cars, sex in dirty motel rooms, anal sex, people having orgasms on their wedding rings, empty words, and then a blown up life when it hits the fan. It doesn't make sense to me if you're not after sex, and I suspect, after years of reading, it never will. It's very rare that a WW gets what she "came for" from the A, and very common, in my circle of associates, that the man does get what he came for. That does NOT mean they are to be understood, but it does mean that their actions are congruent with their intended result. And for many (perhaps most) of the WW stories that I read here, that's not the case. I wanted love, but what I got was cheap sex in the back of a car and then tossed away when his wife found out. So common as to be cliche.

Here's the thing, people do things for a variety of reasons. I've done things sexually that I haven't really wanted to do. Maybe it was because I wanted the guy to like me, maybe it was because I wanted to feel wanted because I had self-worth issues, maybe I wanted something emotionally and thought I HAD to do that to get it.

People do shit for the wrong reasons. If you turn your marriage into a competition,

Or a tit for tat, yes, everyone loses.

I completely understand the need to feel more important than the OP. We need to, but if you have to force it, is it worth it? It is hard to believe that your spouse did something with another person and maybe didn't really want to, but did it anyway for stupid, fucked up reasons, but they may have. They usually have fucked up thinking to begin with, so is it that much of a stretch?

This shit hurts and the need for justice, for feeling like you're more important, for needing our wayward to prove how much they want to be with us is crucial. But it sometimes can add to the damage. This is only my opinion, but I have been there. I survived an 8 year affair, and we are happy. And I was the queen of wanting justice.

I like sex a lot. I have more of a drive than my WH. What if I want to live out my fantasy of being with two men? Do the same rules apply?

Does my WH need to have me penetrate him annally? What if I’ve always wanted to and he’s never allowed it?

I am 100% for the WS being accommodating to the BS. It’s something they need to work together on as a team, but there should be boundaries. If you have no respect for your WS anymore, just take it as a sign that you shouldn’t be with them.

What if I want to live out my fantasy of being with two men? Do the same rules apply?

Yes, although you'll note that I feel threesomes are over the line, the same rules do apply.

Does my WH need to have me penetrate him annally? What if I’ve always wanted to and he’s never allowed it?

Of course, the exact same "rule" would apply. Doubly so if he had his AP penetrate him anally. In fact, if that's the case, he should ask you to do it, because that's a rather uncommon fantasy, and he should want the last person who he did it with to be you and not the AP.

The better example, what if the WH goes down on the AP but not the wife? Because much like anal sex, that's far more likely to cause pleasure for the other person, and far more intimate for most people than other sexual acts. Anal sex is pretty much tops for intimacy for a man, I'd guess going down on a woman is near the tops of intimacy for them. I do know, from my past, that's the one thing I would not do if I wasn't really attracted to my partner, so I suspect women use the "does he, and if so how often, go down on me" scale to determine how sexually interested a guy is in them the same way men use anal sex. Sorry, that was a bit off topic, but I thought, since it was in the same line of thought, I'd keep it in there.

Back to the topic, yes, the same rules apply. It's just that the situation you present (higher drive woman who desires 2 men at the same time and/or wants to peg her husband) is very rare compared to men who'd like to have a threesome or have anal sex with their wives.

Sex in a marriage is vital. It is to ours, but there is more to a marriage than sex. Think about all the things we do for our partners in marriage. There is so much more. If your only measure is in the bedroom, a marriage is doomed. My husband didn't win me back in the bedroom. I understand women and men are different in this way, but the fact is women and men are different in this way! Do you want to feel loved, fullfilled? Or do you want a someone to just fuck you in certain ways? Does that prove love? You can hire someone for that.

Is this advice or agenda?

We are all learning constantly. Our methods of communication change over time, we (hopefully) become wiser, more knowledgeable, and so on.

What is stated as advice can also be a posters own attempt to understand. Understand their own feelings, their circumstances, their spouses motivations.

I've been here years and posted alot, and I still say the wrong thing (frequently).

I think some of what caused this debate in the first place is the choice of language used. All women, from my experience, are very particular about the way they allow men to express sexual desires.

In this case, making a sexual item a requirement for reconciliation can come across as a demand or a coercion. And a third party outside the relationship could easily view that as morally wrong.

Why is it wrong? Because its viewed as devaluing the wayward wife? Because its disrespectful?

Hasn't the ww already done the (in many cases the ONLY) thing that could cause their husband to lose respect for them?

After that happened, for me, it became a matter of 'lets see what I can get from my ww sexually. If the marriage doesn't last, at least I enjoyed the last bit of it. If it does last, well our sex life will be better for it.'

I know I dealt with my ww doing things for her ap she didn't do for me. I know I made sexual requests as part of what I wanted with r. I know she did some of what I asked, and said she would do others but never came through. And I had to decide if what she wouldnt do was worth divorce.

I know there were things she did with ap that would have been on the table before her affair if I had known she was interested but aren't... ever. So that's something she has to make a choice about.

In this case, you could replace threesome with 'farting on faces', and the logic behind it remains the same. 'You did for him, and if you want me, then you also need to do for me.'

This is especially true if a husband has been sexually denied a sexual request for years that was given to ap. A ww's refusal to do it clearly says that she values her ap more than her husband. It's very hard to want to reconcile with that thought rolling around in your noggin.

And I am going somewhere with this monologue. I'm saying that we're all growing and learning and sometimes folks ain't good at explaining shit.

Now I don't know if bw use the same logic... 'You won't do for me what you did for her ' plus 'lets see if I can get what I want even if the relationship fails'. I do know that those are two nearly constant lines of thought that we bh go through. So, when you hear 'I'm a man and here's the truth' what we mean is 'here's my truth and I don't know if it applies to women too.'

Edit: spelling and grammar and such things

[This message edited by Notthevictem at 7:40 PM, February 13th (Tuesday)]

I understand your point, Greeneyesbluezy.

It isn't all the BH's here. In fact, I feel more feel differently than those that have the attitude you are speaking of.

What I have noticed about some of the BH's in my many years here, too, is that they believe infidelity is harder on men than women. And as women, we just. don't. get. it. How can anyone really be able to quantify if one sex has it harder in infidelity? It is something that can not and needs not be measured.

It is up to the individual to decide if they want to demean and degrade themselves any further. The WS has every right to set boundaries and decide how much they will put up with.

Exactly what my point was, AngryandhurtinFL, about people telling others what the WW "should" be doing sexually. It isn't up to us. Everyone has the right to set their own personal boundaries.

I've done things sexually that I haven't really wanted to do. Maybe it was because I wanted the guy to like me, maybe it was because I wanted to feel wanted because I had self-worth issues, maybe I wanted something emotionally and thought I HAD to do that to get it.

It is hard to believe that your spouse did something with another person and maybe didn't really want to, but did it anyway for stupid, fucked up reasons, but they may have. They usually have fucked up thinking to begin with, so is it that much of a stretch?

I agree with this very much so, Teach8. Another point I was trying to make. Sometimes when I did something I didn't really want to, I have felt regret and degraded. Not blaming the other person, blaming myself for not having strong enough boundaries. So, don't we want our WS's to start having strong boundaries? To not do things to just please others? To be able to take a stand about not crossing a boundary, even with our own spouses, when oftentimes it is just easier to cross the boundary and avoid any possible conflict it may cause for not crossing the boundary we set for ourself?

ETA:

Men know they have affairs for sex, women just don’t get it.

I feel a lot of women "get it". I knew that was why my FWH had a LTA. It was actually easier for him to get sex from the OW than it was from me. See, he had to work at getting sex from me. He had to treat me with respect and speak my "Love Language". FWH was lazy and just wanted to have sex with me. He didn't want to work on our relationship anymore and I just needed to be okay with that and with our crappy relationship. With OW, FWH didn't have to speak Its "Love Language" like he has to with me. I wasn't going to be treated like a blow up sex doll, but apparently OW was okay with that. But, OW also thought that Its va jay jay was the golden va jay jay. OW thought MisterSister would have to dump me because he wouldn't be able to be away from Its golden va jay jay. He would have to be with It's golden va jay jay 24/7. Some OW's know that the men are in it for the sex but they are hoping the sex is so awesome that the MM will have to leave the "Love of Their Life" for the OW.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 8:03 PM, February 13th (Tuesday)]

I struggle to pinpoint and isolate what it is that is so egregious in this advice/mindset. I KNOW the WS has to step it up if they want the BS to consider R. It's a no brainer. I told my H - you've got a hill to climb, because I won't settle for the crap marriage we had before. So what specifically upsets me about this?

NTV when you said this:

I know I made sexual requests as part of what I wanted with r.

That didn't create the same resistance I feel in the usual sexual advice/comments. Maybe it's not as forceful? Maybe it doesn't sound so shaming? Doesn't sound so degrading?

Is that it? Is it the language that's being used?

[This message edited by sassylee at 7:48 PM, February 13th (Tuesday)]

Is that it? Is it the language that's being used?

I think it is. I think it's related to how women perceive male pressure for sex. When, under normal circumstances, there is a much thicker line between an expression of desire to a request to a demand to coercion to force.

Here, the same terminology used to describe a crime has been applied not to the request/ requirement but to the inclusion of it as a part of reconciliation.

Hence 'you better give me a [sex act]' used in general is much different than 'you better give me a [sex act]' used under the implications of 'you did it for him after denying me'.

The first has a veiled threat of... well anything really. The second is an implied 'or I will know you cared more about him than me'.

Which is why dudes brought up the comparison to jewelry or fancy dates or poetry.

Hell, I dont know if that makes sense.

Well, color me crazy.

At what point do we actually align cheating, and all the ramifications, as to one sex only denoting the parameters of an actual remorseful wayward?

Women: how can I win his heart back?

Men: at least offer your offer xxxxx? You know he’s so emasculated., he neeeeeeds this.

Men: but, she’s a slut, use and abuse her then divorce her slutty ass.

What I have noticed about some of the BH's in my many years here, too, is that they believe infidelity is harder on men than women. And as women, we just. don't. get. it. How can anyone really be able to quantify if one sex has it harder in infidelity? It is something that can not and needs not be measured.

While I have no idea if this is universally true, I can say, in my relationship, me having a PA with another woman would be less harmful to my wife than her having a PA was to me. Why? Because she doesn't value sex the same way I do.

I can also say, me having an EA (or a blended EA/PA) would be much harder on my W than it would have been on me. An EA, to me, would be a flight of fancy, I would have dismissed it out of hand and moved on. I have a very strong suspicion that my W would be devestated by an EA, something I certainly would not have been. Annoyed and slightly amused (at the desperation of the OM to engage in an EA) would have been my initial reaction. After I started reading on it, my reaction would have changed (as I realized how serious it was/is), but; I'm 100% confident, I wouldn't be thinking about my W's or her AP's words today if that's where it stopped. I do think about my W and her AP's sexual exploits all the time, NEVER about the words that they said to one another; I just don't care, they don't matter to me. Actions matter to me.

So, in summary, I think that generally (GENERALLY) PA's are harder on men and EA's are harder on women. And to link this all back to the OP, if I had an EA and told my AP "she was my everything, I'd die for you" but then never said that to my W; I think she'd have every right to be upset and mad about it. And I further think that if I came here as the WH and said I was trying, people would tell me to learn "better romantic techniques" to amp things up for my W. I find it difficult to understand how the analogy does not hold to sexual acts by a WW (or WH, should the situation reverse) not be subject to the same filter.

Let me try to make a comparison...

Using the analogy of going down on a woman, lets say a wh went down on his ap after not doing it for his bw after years of her asking for it.

Would she be wrong in saying that if he wants to reconcile, among the other requirements, he would also have to do that more frequently?

If its okay for a woman to put that in as requirement for r, wouldn't also apply to men?

Women: how can I win his heart back?

Men: at least offer your offer xxxxx? You know he’s so emasculated., he neeeeeeds this.

Men: but, she’s a slut, use and abuse her then divorce her slutty ass.

And the same can be said for men:

Man: How can I win her heart back after I cheated?

Woman: Did you offer her a post-nup, tell her how you felt about her, open your heart to her, share things with her you never shared before, become emotionally available and buy her something to try to show her your love. She's broken, this is the least you can do!

Woman: But he's a cad, he doesn't deserve you, and you should D him and take him to the cleaner; and keep the big ring he's going to buy you.

Are we really that different? We value different things. And I'd never claim otherwise. Where I bristle a bit is that we think that the "female version" of this is fine, sign a post-nup, buy her things, make her feel safe; but the male version borders on a sex crime. It doesn't work that way folks, men value sex much more highly, in general, than women do. None of us get to decide that a man valuing anal sex with his W and wanting it as a condition of R is in any way better or worse than a wife wanting a slanted postnup and a big diamond.

Trust me, I wish, all the time that women didn't value the things that they do, it seems silly and superficial to me. I makes me feel easily replaceable by a guy who's read a lot of poetry with a big checkbook. Just like I'm sure women wish all the time that men didn't value sex so highly. But many women do, and many men do value those different things, trying to say one is right and the other wrong; it just doesn't make sense to me.

Infidelity is either Emotional or Physical. Sometimes both. What I said was: some of the BH's in my many years here, too, is that they believe infidelity is harder on men than women. Infidelity. Not sex. Infidelity.

I understand the point you are making RideitOut, though. And, in general, agree. But, actually, the 7 years of fucking fucking that my fucking FWH did with the fucking fuckity fucked OW is/was pretty fucking hard on me.

eta: to fix misspelled word

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 11:37 PM, February 15th (Thursday)]

Equal sexual experiences has merit. I have yet to see a male give advice to up his game, give better oral, crawl in bed with another man fucking your wife, because hey, that’s true love and giving.

Some super disconnect here.

At what point do we actually align cheating, and all the ramifications, as to one sex only denoting the parameters of an actual remorseful wayward?

We don't. It's just a gauge, one of several. Willingness to take a lie detector, willingness to sign a postnup, willingness to be all in, willingness to read the books, willingness to go to counseling. All those are little guages, and none of them work independently.

I think there's a missing step here in my explanation for you to make the jump to this. Let me go back and try to find it.

This thread is way over generalizing.

I must have missed the part about living without your children.

There is NO WAY I want to be without my children.

This is something I see in the males and females who have been betrayed.

I want my children.

So lack of. Too much sex. Not right position.

Yeah it’s important. But I am not going to be without my children. And no way will another woman be a stepmother to my children.

[This message edited by Iwantmyglasses at 8:33 PM, February 13th (Tuesday)]