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Childish but felt good!

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KingRat posted 9/29/2020 12:52 PM

Yes the marriage is dead. Died the moment he stepped out to have an affair. I've been avoiding that reality. But it is the reality. So no theres no chance for that marriage to ever be again.

IF wh wants more than a roommate relationship then it's up to him to fix his issues and work towards a NEW marriage. That I'm not opposed to. However after this long I am not holding my breath.

I believe you need to accept there is no chance for any marriage with him. It's gone. Until that happens, it will be impossible to detach because keeping open to the possibility of a miraculous epiphany on his part will keep you tethered.

I think it is also incumbent upon you to accept that if you stay married, at least on paper, that you will never be able to enjoy romantic companionship with another person in your life. The reality is very few people will accept that arrangement. It is important to be honest with yourself if that is something you are truly willing to accept.

I'm not saying you should do this or do that. Only that you have to make these decisions with eyes wide open. You have to be honest with yourself that you are fully prepared to make a choice and accept the consequences of a choice.

KingRat posted 9/29/2020 12:58 PM

Any suggestions on how to word an email to him that

Before you do that or draw any lines in the sand, you have to be committed to the outcome. If you aren't committed or able to follow through don't do it. If you back down, he will never take you seriously or respect you. He will see you as a bunch of hot air. Once you've cooled down, he proceed to do what he wants. The biggest mistake you can make is assuming he thinks like you.

DragnHeart posted 9/29/2020 13:07 PM

I think it is also incumbent upon you to accept that if you stay married, at least on paper, that you will never be able to enjoy romantic companionship with another person in your life.

Eyes wide open.

If we were to divorce I can say honestly right now I have absolutely no desire to marry or be romantically involved with anyone ever again. Is there always a chance that could change sure but very unlikely.

Thus far as I said theres been very little romance or passion since the early days of our dating and engagement.

I do not feel that one must have a romantic partner or companion to have a fulfilling life. I have the love of my children, the love of my pets and the unwavering love and fulfillment of my spiritual path.

I'm also not clinging to any hope that he will do the work needed for a new marriage. I'm simply living my life with him as a co parent and roommate.

nekonamida posted 9/29/2020 13:21 PM

Sure it's better with the passion and connection but if all he wants is the release then its rather easy. As long as hes ok with me watching a movie while he does his thing I couldn't care less.

These are the types of thoughts that you need to change in order to detach. It's giving him too much power because you're allowing him to decide for you what the relationship will be. "Well if HE..." NO! He won't. And he will gladly take all of the fucking you give him and will use it to justify that he won't have to do anything more because he can cheat all he wants and you still fuck him on occasion. Then, even subconsciously, you will start to expect him to be a husband again, he will disappoint you, there will be some form of new DDay, and you will continue to not heal. This is all part of the emotional trap you've been in. It's gotta stop with any thought of, "If all he wants..." No. It's about what you want and since you want to be roommates, from now on you're going to act like roommates which means no more fucking. Maybe, maaaaaybe, after you have fully accepted him as gone for good and you have fully detached, maybe you will be able to re-introduce fucking without it immediately giving you a hopium rush followed by a disappointment crash. Or maybe you're just not wired for NSA fucking. That's a future decision to make but for now, the fucking has got to go.

He wasnt happy about it, asked why. like duh come on.

Since you're still open to R, it doesn't hurt to give him a direct goal he can reach for you to maybe change your mind about just being roommates. Examples: "We can talk about it after you book and attend 3 IC sessions aimed at why you feel the need to put OW above me and our family." "I might change my mind if you delete your FB account for the next few months." "I'd be more interested in exploring this if you read "How to Help Your Spouse Heal from your Affair" first." You don't have to even commit to anything and hey, if he does it, choose a new one if you're still not feeling like hugging him. Chances are, he will realize he's no longer entitled to your affection without doing X, Y, and Z. The gravy train is over. The muffin shop is closed. He will either do them or he will stop asking because it doesn't go anywhere for him. Both of those outcomes are little wins in your book. And it won't feel like mothering because you're not booking the appointments, buying the book, and watching over him while he does or doesn't do it because you don't really care if he does or not. If he asks you to, just say no.

Yes, it WILL get easier. You will get used to saying no to the point where you don't even think about it anymore. You will get used to repeating yourself. You will care less and less about whatever emotion that he feels in the moment especially because he will have been told repeatedly what he can do to earn hugs and kisses therefore it is no longer your responsibility when he doesn't get them. He will have no one to blame but himself. And if he tries to blame you, you can always ask him how many companies are paying him for the work he isn't doing for them. You can ask him what world he lives in where he gets rewards for NOT doing what it takes to earn a reward so that maybe you can move there too. You're snarky. I'm sure you can come up with something that drives the message home as to how ridiculous he would be to expect something from you for doing the opposite of what you require.

If he wasnt such a pussy about posting here again you could ask him. Ok calling him a pussy isnt nice, I'm sorry. (but he is!).

Honestly, the title of pussy is too good for him because he does not have the depth or warmth to show for it. He's just a plain old coward.

[This message edited by nekonamida at 1:22 PM, September 29th (Tuesday)]

DragnHeart posted 9/29/2020 13:35 PM

Guidance and instructions I think I'll print out your post nekonamida and just keeping reading that over and over.

The muffin shop is closed.

That made me LOL!

maybe you're just not wired for NSA fucking. That's a future decision to make but for now, the fucking has got to go.

I've done nsa sex before but not with anyone I actually had feelings for. We knew it was probably a one time or couple time thing but there was no expectation of a relationship. Those were back in my university days btw. Lots of alcohol and occasional sex...

Honestly, the title of pussy is too good for him because he does not have the depth or warmth to show for it. He's just a plain old coward.

Coward works too. Hes complained that SI is my place, everyone likes me and hates him so why even bother. Told him that wasnt the case at all, members have emailed him, even called him and yet he resists. Hes just unwilling to have anyone tell him hes wrong.

apache posted 9/29/2020 14:02 PM

I gotta say though, four youngish kids and married for a while, work, eat sleep, shop, kids...repeat. Sounds like a lot of marriages. Hubby has and has had a few extra activities added on, but mostly, most marriages at this point look much the same.

They don't have to, but most do.

Mine was a milder version of this due to only 2 kids @ 4.5 years apart and no extra curricular activities.

Just an observation.

I don't understand your hubby's actions given there's a short feisty redhead with a machete running around.

DragnHeart posted 9/29/2020 14:05 PM


I replied to your post on the previous page.

[This message edited by DragnHeart at 2:13 PM, September 29th (Tuesday)]

DevastatedDee posted 9/29/2020 14:06 PM

The biggest mistake you can make is assuming he thinks like you.

Ooh, read that twice. Maybe 10 times a day for a while.

DragnHeart posted 9/29/2020 14:08 PM

The biggest mistake you can make is assuming he thinks like you.

Ya I know. He thinks with his dick. I think with my head. Sometimes my heart.

DragnHeart posted 9/29/2020 22:24 PM

Oh well this evening didnt go well at all. I'm not sure what to do.

Told wh where I stand right now.

He at first said he was sorry, would delete facebook and even just keep text on his phone only. When I said that he needed to dig deeper, figure out his whys and that I cant keep living like this he said fine let's get divorced. Sell the house and split it 50/50. He was very matter of fact and emotionless. I said fine, went to walk away and he grabs me n a bear hug and says that's not what he wants. Ugh! I told him it appears he does. Had to deal with the kids after that, nothing more said.


OwningItNow posted 9/29/2020 22:39 PM

Ignore words and intentions. Wait for actions. Then wait to see if the new behaviors stick. Focus on the kids and the rest of your life while he works on this himself.

Good luck!

Superesse posted 9/30/2020 00:04 AM

So, just you saying he needs to dig deeper was Divorce time, huh? DragnHeart, I hate to say this but I am afraid you are just seeing the tip of the cheater iceberg, if that was his reaction. Ugh!

If he even thought he might have a problem, his hurtful response wouldn't have been so damn quick out of his mouth, I honestly think. He was angry that he needs to figure out why he cheats? And ogling teens on FB is cheating and possibly worse...I hope you understand that nothing you can say, do, or not do, can talk him into seeing his whys.

My SAWH, as messed up as he is, has never said that to me in that way; he just plays turtle and shuts down. But to mouth off that a Divorce is the solution = him saying "I ain't gonna change!" He has lots of issues.

What OIN said is good, just to sit back now and watch his actions but in my estimation, that kind of response qualifies as a negative action. At least, for me it would be a memory I wouldn't forget.

apache posted 9/30/2020 00:45 AM

It's been status quo for a long time, this wasn't status quo. (either of you)

He could be good for a day and a half, or maybe this shook the tree enough to rattle your pet monkey a little bit.

Time and actions will tell.
Let's hope he's rattled.

DragnHeart posted 9/30/2020 04:04 AM

This morning he didnt say much while we had coffee. Sat at the table staring off.

When he goes to leave he says he promises to stay off facebook. I say that's not the point, that he'll be good for a month or two then right back at it. Then told him we cant have this conversation as hes walking out the door to work. He always gave me shit for bringing up anything when he was leaving (even just asking what he wanted for dinner).

So he leaves, drives half way down the road, pulls over and puts his four ways on. The van acts up when it rains so I figured maybe it stalled. He says he might have knocked the gear shift. Turned it off and on again and it ran fine. Just another thing to have to keep an eye on....

I had told him where I stand via email. Didnt want to "talk" with little ears around. I used some of nekonamida's suggestions. Said to find his own IC, do his own research and book reading to figure out what's going on with him.

We will see if he does anything on his own...

I dont want to play PI or marriage police so I'm not monitoring his phone use. He can put just talk and text on it but theres wifi at work so that's redundant.

Still the way he reacted so coldly with fine lets divorce is just stuck in my head. Easier I guess than looking in the mirror and admitting to himself hes got problems.

OwningItNow posted 9/30/2020 04:34 AM

I can only say what happened with me. When I finally drew a line (there were a few lines like no more sex or affection, then me moving out unless..., then finally ihs/coparenting only) his reactions were:

1st. Irritation or anger ("Fine!").
2nd. Then moved to making some showy changes (going to IC a few times followed by cancelling appointments and changing nothing in his behavior).
3rd. Doing more chores rather than digging into his Whys.
4th. More anger and victim playing ("Nothing I do is good enough!").
5th. Waiting me out. He was making an occasional IC appt. here and there, doing a few more chores, and accepting the new status quo of less or no affection with a little bit of low level frustration. (Many, many BS confuse this stage with change. This is NOT real change, just placating behaviors.)

Weeks and then months ticked by. It was like a staring contest, a game of chicken. Who was going to give in first--me or him? He wanted what he was doing to be enough so we could go back to normal. I wanted a true and permanent change in our relationship. I did not reinstate affection, sleeping in the same bed, or make promises about the future. I frequently skipped seeing his family and sometimes asked him to stay home when I saw mine. I spent more time with friends and did more activities alone. We hung out in limbo and discomfort, neither of us living as we wanted or feeling this was fair. I told myself to get good and comfortable with being nice and uncomfortable because I was fighting for my life, my dignity, my freaking future. He would occasionally yell, "What do you want from me?" And I would answer, "When I feel in my gut that you have become a different, safe person, I will naturally trust you and want to be close to you. If you don't like that I feel completely unsafe, there is the door. I'll help you pack. You will NEVER force me into a demeaning relationship again."

You would think it was all enough, right? Nope. He lashed out again one night (he was drunk), and I said, "That's it. Done. This is not change. You are a liar, a fake, a great pretender putting on a show." And we started divorce proceedings. And THAT is when he actually started to look at his stupid ass self, when he had finally lost it all. I was truly done but was accidentally (he had no clue and thought we were dating others and moving on) won over by his efforts during the D process. His change was a byproduct of D, not an effort to save the M. He only changed when he was devastated by losing everything. (Not saying this would be true for you, DrgnHeart, or anyone else, just that it was true for me.)

Changing an R takes months or years of cutting off affection or 180 or whatever boundaries you have for whatever reasons you have them. It takes a lot more than mere days. And certainly more than a few hours. If you cannot resist your spouse's charm, wit, sarcasm, insults, threats, fakery, jedi mind tricks, wizardry, sexual seduction, pressure, begging, victimization, suicide threats, and all other mental and emotional warfare, you will not be able to stand tall during the "I refuse to accept the status quo!" period in an M. The success of the boundary lies with the person who is sick and tired of being hurt, not with the person making the changes. Can you keep the fortress that is your determination, DragnHeart? Your H will always, always, always want to go back to how it was. He was happy. It's you that has to get comfortable with being in an uncomfortable M because you were NOT happy before. Buckle that seatbelt. This is gonna take a while. His pressure campaign is only getting started.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 6:24 AM, September 30th (Wednesday)]

DragnHeart posted 9/30/2020 06:27 AM

OIN. Question. Are you two R or D now?

His change was a byproduct of D, not an effort to save the M.

If wh has no desire to change TO save the marriage (create a new one) then D is really the only option.

Buckle that seatbelt. This is gonna take a while.

I gots me a five point harness.

The success of the boundary lies with the person who is sick and tired of being hurt, not with the person making the changes. Can you keep the fortress that is your determination, DragnHeart?

Do you have any idea how much resolve, determination and fearless stubbornness it takes to take on a pack of coyotes with a machete or even just a shovel? WH is more like an annoying raccoon in the attic and I have traps for that.

Your H will always, always, always want to go back to how it was.

Ya he will but theres no going back. Only forward.

OwningItNow posted 9/30/2020 07:00 AM

We are R!!!! A really great R! My H is a completely different person. He is just such a great partner now.

I know my story is not everyone's story, but we never stopped encouraging each other to be better people and keep working on ourselves, even when the M was dead. Our mediator said what a pleasure it was to work with us because we never tried to hurt each other in the D process. If someone has a personality disordered monster on their hands, it's not possible to be kind or fair because the WS cannot stop being selfish. It's who they are. But your regular f-ed up cheaters who have other types of messed up avoidance issues, which a lot of this comes down to, can change if they can find the guts and the stick-with-it-ness. A real help was when an IC told me, "You owe people strong boundaries, OwningItNow, or they cannot know what you need or how to make you happy." Geeze. I had never thought of it that way. You really do teach people how to treat you.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 7:04 AM, September 30th (Wednesday)]

DragnHeart posted 9/30/2020 07:02 AM

After wh left for work I went back to bed.

Dreamt that he came home from work then went out to a "work training session".

He didnt come home when expected and I felt something must be wrong.

Then he comes in, the side door, not the front almost as if trying to sneak in. He was black and blue, swollen and bandaged. His new glasses are twisted in a weird way.

He manages to explain he got beaten up...by his APs BH. Hes avoidant. Walks away. The kids won't go to their rooms like I ask them to they keep following him and he keeps walking. I have questions but he wont answer.

The dream then takes a weird turn to just total craziness not even involving him and I wake up.

Weird to have THIS dream now. Maybe a deep down wish that he had gotten a beating? It was always a fear of mine that it would happen or worse...

I really dont want to see anything bad happen to him but I'm done taking care of him or mothering him or just being there. That whole bullshit he put me through when he was in the hospital last year was more than enough for me to feel that if hes ever put in the hospital again he can stay there and have his actual Mother come tend to whatever he needs.

So what you say about strong boundaries is what needs to happen now. I cannot give affection or care to a person who is actively hurting me.

DragnHeart posted 9/30/2020 07:16 AM

I get bad migraines. As a kid I would be laid up in bed, sometimes my mother found me rolling om the floor. Taken to hospital many times. Finally got in some meds that helped.

They tapered off and eventually went away after having the kids. Sure I'd get one now and then but not every few days.

Now they are back. My brother insisted I get a daith piercing like he did that had helped his migraines and has even gotten me the gift certificate for getting it done.

Yesterday my parents called and I told them I was sick with a migraine and had spent monday and tuesday mornings in bed after the kids left for school. My dad insists I get the piercing now. No more waiting.

But...its like the more I think about wh, this sham of a marriage, D, R and just anything to do with wh my head hurts. It did go from mice warm weather to crappy wet, damp and rainy which is usually a trigger for the pain. I just cant help feel that this is more stress induced than weather.

If I decide to take a couple days away, from him the kids thr farm just a few days for me that's not abandonment is it?

DevastatedDee posted 9/30/2020 08:15 AM

If I decide to take a couple days away, from him the kids thr farm just a few days for me that's not abandonment is it?

No. That's self-care. That's really important.

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