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D-day #2, kind of? (Very, super-duper long)...

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HowIsThisReal posted 9/6/2019 11:39 AM

Update page 4, started seeing a MC/IC.

Posting in Rec because I feel deep down I still want to work things out, and I can't handle any blunt 2x4s right now about suggesting D right away, but I need to get this out and get some feedback.

So my husband cheated and I found out in 2015, he was the poster child of remorse. He left behind his family and moved out of state with me because he wanted to try to work things out, he went FULL transparency and to this day still doesn't ask for any of the apps to be removed from his phone. He never blamed me or our marriage, he took FULL responsibility for his choices. He apologized daily, read the 'How To Help' book and we found he was already doing many of the things in the book.

He did the work, he went to counseling, he dug into unpleasant FOO memories, quit smoking and made healthier choices for himself. He gave me full access to his counselor, and our counselors even worked together sharing our info. They both told me they thought this could work, that he was one of the most "redeemable" cheaters they'd worked with, they told me he loved me and had made bad choices that spiraled out of control and became almost like a sexual addiction, but they said he wasn't a sex addict, he had no prior behavior that would classify him as that.
My own counselor told me in private, that if I kept up the way I was acting towards him, the marriage would end, not because of his cheating but because of MY actions and behavior, that everyone has a breaking point. I thought, "I can act how ever TF I want towards him and he needs to take it" and I stopped going to counseling.

He was remorseful almost to a fault, he took the verbal abuse I threw at him constantly for YEARS. We would go back and forth between being happy and me giving him the affection he craved, for a while and then me pulling away, and wanting to punish him more, thinking he didn't deserve this happiness with me. When I was ready to be kind of close again he was always patiently waiting for me to "come back from it".

Cut to almost 4 years later (aka now) and I've been so cut off from him for a good portion of a year now. Before we'd go through happy spans where it would be a bit normal, not this year. It went back and forth between being just "friendly" and then "cold". I stopped saying I love you to him, even as a front for the kids. He kept saying it until finally he said it felt awkward to him, so he stopped saying it too. We spend nights in opposite rooms watching TV after the kids go to bed.

I still harbored anger, I've still been verbally abusive, told him he's not attractive, made fun of his appearance, even pointed out specific things about him that turned me off, made fun of his intelligence, told him I was losing feelings for him, told him I wouldn't re-marry him if I had a chance to do life over.

I got annoyed with him and gave him attitude if he was sick or under the weather, like I was literally mean to him when he was sick. I told him that I didn't love him the same, that I loved him like a friend, I even put us on pause for a while and said we should be just friends, I said we should separate, he should move out, but we didn't have the financial means.

The thing is, I said all this without meaning it, I said it to hear him fight for me every time, I said it to see him lower his head in pain, I said it to have power and control knowing that I could treat him how ever I wanted since he had planted this bomb in our marriage. I said it to instill the fear/shame in him that he would end up like his father, went through life alone in a crappy apartment, as a part time dad, who he always said he didn't want to end up like.

Through these years, he begged (I don't mean dropping hints, he literally, verbally asked me time & time again) for any scrap of affection, a hug, a touch on the shoulder even, he told me he still loved me and wanted only me. Also, all the while, he still made sure to try and do nice and thoughtful things for me or if I was having a super stressful day he'd take the kids to the park so that I could have some relaxing alone time at home.

I'm not proud of the way I have acted, I realize I sound like a psycho, but I just couldn't let the anger go, I should never have left therapy. I felt he should be grateful for whatever scraps of this life he could have, with all of us under one roof, him not having to be a part time dad, etc.

About 3 weeks ago, after an hour of us arguing and me spitting vile things at him again, he told me he couldn't do it anymore, that he didn't "like" me anymore, that he didn't feel the same love for me, that all I ever did was insult him and make him feel like a hideous, ugly, disgusting, scumbag monster. He told me that he didn't want to be married to me anymore and was going to look into divorce.

I got upset and said "of course this is how he would act, of course he wouldn't stick around to clean up the mess he had made". He said he had tried and tried for years and he can't force me to love him again. I cried and was hurt, he tried to console me and kind of "took back" what he had said, he said he was angry and shouldn't have said it, said he wanted to work on things if I thought I still could. I wouldn't agree one way or the other, I just held what he had said over him and was snarky about it. "Why bother, you don't want to be married to me anyway", things like that. Life went on with us just kind of being polite to each other and not mentioning it again.

So one night I ask for his phone so I can use his headphone jack to watch roku in our room (my phone has no headphone jack), and I see a text that says "GN". Hmmm..Suspicious.
So I check the monitoring app and I see that he's getting texts from this one number, some of them at 11 at night, one at 3 am, and he's deleting them.
Whoever it is, is joking with him, etc. At first he's just replying to the GIF's she's sending like "oh I love that movie", etc. They're talking about movies they like, things like that. This person seems to have a lot in common with him, more in common than I do (liking things like star wars and horror movies). Then she's asking how his weekend was and he tells her about how he spent the weekend cleaning up his aunt's apartment who recently passed, and this mystery person says sorry about his aunt, asking if he's ok, etc. It all seems pretty tame.

Then I see her ask when they can hang out again and alarm bells go off.

To side step for a minute: He had texted me last Friday asking if he should drive a coworker home who had no car, on his lunch break, I told him to go for it. Didn't really phase me, he wanted to make sure I didn't think anything of him leaving work when I saw it on the GPS (it alerts me when he leaves work).

So after finding this number had been texting him, I go into the shed/"man cave" outside (it's where we do all of our talking that the kids shouldn't hear) where he's watching TV (like I said, we basically go to separate rooms after putting the kids to bed) and ask for his phone. He hands it to me, doesn't seem concerned.
I ask who TF (insert name) is! He looks terrified, he says it's a woman who has been hitting on him at work. First some trickle truth, "she hugged him", I push harder, then "she gave him a peck", I push more, then finally "when he drove her home (yes she was the coworker he mentioned driving home), she kissed him in his car, he kissed back for a minute and then pulled away and said he had to go" and drove off.
I flip out, "how can you do this to me again after almost 4 years of "work"!?" etc. He says he didn't mean to and he freaked out afterwards on the ride home, he said he brushed her advances off at first, laughed them away, kind of acted oblivious. She kept coming on to him at work, so he flirted back a little in their work emails (which I also have access to, so I know it didn't get into anything sexual, it was all talk about movies really, plus their work emails are monitored).

While he didn't outright blame me, he said I had made him feel like this ugly monster for the past 4 years and this person was paying attention to him and he thought maybe he wasn't so hideous after all, he thought, "OMG someone likes me" and it was exciting, he finally had someone to talk to, but he didn't think she'd try to kiss him. They've only been "friendly" since August 22nd, I can see it all in the work emails, it started out as a group email about someone winning a work paid lunch or something, and then she replied to him only, and started the private convo.

I KNOW cheating is inexcusable, he had the option to tell me he was going to be dating, he had the option to make it clear to me that we were separated before flirting back with her. In my mind, he was always willing to stay no matter what, so technically we were still married, in my mind we still had the same end goal even though I didn't let him know that. I kept my walls up to protect myself.

I never excused it the first d-day, I never even thought to myself, that I had anything to do with it, before d-day #1, I was a loving, doting wife and I didn't deserve it. This time, I can KIND OF see where he might finally cave in to some attention after the way I'd treated him all these years. I saw his effort at first to keep it platonic. I texted her and asked, she said she would never get down and dirty in a car with someone she barely knew, it went as far as a kiss. She liked him.
He's back to apologising over and over, he told her the next day at work that he should never have kissed her back, and that he made a stupid choice, that he wanted to work things out with me, that he wouldn't be privately emailing her anymore even if it was only about movies or common interests, etc.

It was a wakeup call to me, if I don't want him, SOMEONE else out there will. I know I've treated him like absolute shit these past 4 years. Did he deserve some of it? Yes.

At first I made a plan to move back to my home state, get a small apartment for me and the kids, get a FT job, I asked him how much he thought would be reasonable for child support, I can't make it on my own without CS, etc. He was devastated. He wanted to work things out.

The 2nd day I was thinking about how awful life was about to be. I have no profession, he makes decent money, I work PT and am able to be home with the kids most days of the week. I freaked out, we were about to lose 19 years of history, etc.
So we talked, we both cry and say we still love each other, we have sex and declare out love over and over, and we made a plan to try to save us, to sell our house and move back to my home state together, which he's always been resistant to but what I'd always dreamt of since we left.

I am a MISERABLE person since we left my home state almost a decade ago, I've never been fully happy. We moved in 2011 to be near his family, then after d-day 1, we moved here (NOT my home state) to be near my family who happened to live here at the time. Now my family are all moving back to my home state, and I'd literally be alone here in this state that I despise, with no family.

Anyway, he was willing and even acting excited to move back to my home state, excited that I'd be a happier person and that maybe we could work through this all. We were looking at jobs, houses, etc all day yesterday.

Today I woke up and feel angry, tried to cuddle him this morning to force the anger away, which obviously sent a mixed signal. Then he later came into the bedroom in a great mood, to ask how I was today, and told him I had no choice but to divorce him, his face fell, he was confused, he was devastated. He said he had been excited after yesterday, we were going to be ok. I said that I'd TOLD him if it ever happened again we were done, that it's my obligation to myself even if it's not completely what I want.

And now I'm just hurt, confused and angry. At him, at myself, etc. I keep thinking back to how my IC said my behavior would eventually end our marriage and I know I've been awful. Doesn't give him the right to kiss someone else of course. Now I'm just so confused.

[This message edited by HowIsThisReal at 7:11 AM, September 12th (Thursday)]

prissy4lyfe posted 9/6/2019 12:09 PM

I'm sorry. I know the pain of 2nd DDay.

I'm a FIRM believer in my gut. Are you sure there isn't anything else?

sisoon posted 9/6/2019 12:31 PM

I'm very sorry this happened.

You do have a choice. You don't have to D ... or R.

What do you want?

If it's R, you have to process your a-related feelings out of your body. You have to give them up.

IMO, R is a process of building an M that serves you both. It is not perpetual penance for the fWS. It is not license to treat your H badly forever. R needs to promise joy - if it doesn't, it's not worth the effort, IMO.

What do you want?

ibonnie posted 9/6/2019 13:04 PM

I know I've treated him like absolute shit these past 4 years. Did he deserve some of it? Yes.

I'm a BS and I disagree with you. If you wanted to R, it was your responsibility to work on healing yourself and dealing with your anger issues. Furthermore, just because you were (rightfully) angry over the affair doesn't give you a pass to be mean and cruel. It's possible to be angry and express that without:

I've still been verbally abusive, told him he's not attractive, made fun of his appearance, even pointed out specific things about him that turned me off, made fun of his intelligence, told him I was losing feelings for him, told him I wouldn't re-marry him if I had a chance to do life over.

I got annoyed with him and gave him attitude if he was sick or under the weather, like I was literally mean to him when he was sick.

I don't know what else to say other than, is this the example of marriage that you want to set for your children? Are they aware of your WH's A, or do they just see their mother being cruel to their father with no explanation why?

SaddestDad posted 9/6/2019 13:04 PM

This is going to be an unpopular opinion but I honestly can't blame him... 4 years of him giving 100% to you and the M and getting nothing but viciousness in return. I mean, think of how long that is - forget about the original A for a moment. Wouldn't it be obvious that you were just co-parenting & it was an in-house separation?

It sucks that he gave in, but I really can't fault him as much as I would like to.

The dishonesty & deletion of messages wasn't right, as it does signify that he was aware he was doing wrong and consciously hiding it, but I still don't feel surprised by him giving in.

If he treated you the way you've been treating him for the past 4 years, wouldn't everyone be screaming that he's having an affair and/or why should you bother fighting for him? It would be a unanimous chant on all sides of the fence - even from madhatters.

I respectfully apologize if this seems harsh. Definitely no 2x4 meant in any way, just adding perspective. If it is harsh, please let me know and I'll remove it.

[This message edited by SaddestDad at 1:05 PM, September 6th, 2019 (Friday)]

Brennan87 posted 9/6/2019 13:16 PM

Howisthisreal,

I'm sorry you are going through all of this the life of a BS is not exactly the best for sure.

With that being said, part of your conversation resonated with me in how these past three years I've treated my WW and I'm dealing with a ball of anger right now. Not that it helps you, but seeing the damage my behavior could have was eye opening. So thank for sharing that.

For your benefit though, you need to get back into IC (IMO) to address the anger, otherwise it will get out of control at some point and will even be more detrimental to your life. It's not fair to you, your spouse and others around you for you to implode. Carrying the anger around will result in resentment and ultimately will result in physical ailments as well. :)

With that being said, regardless of whether or not you feel you have treated your WS poorly, it does not give him license to cheat yet again.

:)

HowIsThisReal posted 9/6/2019 13:27 PM

I'm a FIRM believer in my gut. Are you sure there isn't anything else?

My gut tells me there is nothing else. I can literally see when he leaves work and wherever he goes on the GPS app.
He is only ever at work or home. I see all texts and emails.

Carissima posted 9/6/2019 13:39 PM

Firstly as a BW your husband's actions with this new OW are not acceptable.

Having said that what you have described of your own actions is abuse, plain and simple. If the affair was a dealbreaker for you then totally understandable but you deal with it by divorcing or separating. You chose to stay with this man, someone you acknowledge did everything you asked of him but you've continually beat him down.

Can I ask what your endgame was? (before DDay2 that is) Was this pattern of punishment ever going to change out did you see it just going on indefinitely?

crazyblindsided posted 9/6/2019 13:58 PM

I don't care how bad he felt treated by you after his A. He obviously didn't do the work if he did this again. I'm calling BS on him (not blind spouse). I also verbally abused my WS after D-Day and too felt he deserved. I still have no regrets about it.

Like you I couldn't handle what he did to me and contined to do to me. My WS was also not remorseful.

(((HowIsThisReal))) hugs most likely your reactions are from your own trauma. Did you have any trauma in your past?

[This message edited by crazyblindsided at 2:01 PM, September 6th (Friday)]

jb3199 posted 9/6/2019 14:04 PM

What ibonnie said....word for word.

You weren't in reconciliation. Reconciliation take TWO committed partners. Fidelity alone doesn't make a marriage successful.

Still doesn't excuse his behaviors. If he did the real work, he would not be deleting messages. He would not engage in an inappropriate....because that is what it turned into....friendship.

So where do you go from here?

because I feel deep down I still want to work things out,

Your words. Now you have a different type of reconciliation to ponder---can you reconcile the fact that you told your WH that you were done if he misbehaved again versus the fact that you know you didn't properly participate in the reconciliation process?

nekonamida posted 9/6/2019 14:23 PM

Due to the unique factors of your situation, I think you should go into IC for yourself. IC for him too. Think long and hard about if you can even R with him WITHOUT being abusive. If you can't, you have to D because this marriage how it was even before DDay #2 just cannot continue. It was toxic for you, toxic for him, and especially toxic for the kids who are now more likely to go on to treat their spouses like you treated him AND are more likely to cheat because of his A. Love is not enough. It has to be a new, healthy marriage or separation going forward.

MamaDragon posted 9/6/2019 15:44 PM

Because of the unique situation you are in I'd say give R a chance because you still have anger issues you are trying to work through. IC will help you and then MC for both of you.

His fault is he did not tell you what was going on at work - I've been in this same boat.

My FWH is a KISA, so when a female starts giving him attention and she has problems...he wants to help resolve them and that leads to him starting to let his guard down.

Do I get angry - yes...but we work through it and have set up parameters that he can look back at and see if he is slipping down a slippery slope into cheaterville.

I would have him Text her and you at the same time and tell the female NO CONTACT. I would have him request his office to not work directly with this person and under no circumstances is he to be alone with this person. HE needs to stand up to her and let her know it was not kosher to kiss him. If he doesn't do that, then that is a different kettle of fish and I'd divorce him.

MamaDragon posted 9/6/2019 15:46 PM

Forgot to add - you can always go see a lawyer and see what your options are.

Maybe put in place a Post nup =

You can always change your mind when R'ing and divorce.

HowIsThisReal posted 9/6/2019 15:59 PM

I don't know what else to say other than, is this the example of marriage that you want to set for your children? Are they aware of your WH's A, or do they just see their mother being cruel to their father with no explanation why?

I should add that I NEVER EVER *EVER* treated him that way in front of the kids. Never even within earshot of the kids, my vile, hateful behavior was only ever after they'd gone to bed and we were talking outside of the house completely. We act friendly in front of the kids, not all lovey dovey and mushy but never mean towards each other.

Even after D-Day 1 when I took the kids and left on what they thought was a last minute vacation to their grandparents' house, I had them call him every night, I didn't talk bad about him, etc.

The kids literally have no idea that we have these issues.
They may have suspected that something is amiss between us but they likely think it's because I'm so depressed from being away from my home state and my husband likes it here, so we are at odds.

[This message edited by HowIsThisReal at 8:59 AM, September 7th (Saturday)]

Striver posted 9/6/2019 16:49 PM

HowIsThisReal,

You may correct me if I'm wrong.

It seems to me like your WH is something of a narcissist and in control of the relationship. Your entire post is about WH being the poster boy for reconciliation. It doesn't matter.

The two of you never worked on letting go of the outcome. In your healing, what he does is of secondary importance. His A should be allowed to be a deal breaker for you, and he can read How To Heal a hundred times, but if you don't love him any more because of the A, he needs to accept that.

Instead, perhaps you have a dynamic where he's the center of attention in the marriage? He used to drink, then he had an A, then he became reconciliation poster boy.. now he's slipped up again. In every instance, it's all about him. Including the fact that you live in a place where he is happy and you are not.

If my read of your dynamic is correct, your anger will never go away. You and he haven't fixed the underlying issues in the marriage.

Also, YES IT IS D-DAY #2!

HowIsThisReal posted 9/6/2019 16:56 PM

Striver, no that's not the dynamic at all, you must be confusing some of my post with someone else's, my husband never drank, he rarely ever drinks actually.
We were HS sweethearts basically, everyone said we were their "marriage goals" before all this. We were very give and take and shared responsibility and all that.


Sorry I'm not replying to everyone right away, H left work earlier today, and we have been having a heart to heart, super honest, super open conversation.

[This message edited by HowIsThisReal at 9:01 AM, September 7th (Saturday)]

HowIsThisReal posted 9/6/2019 17:03 PM

You do have a choice. You don't have to D ... or R.

What do you want?

I've never wanted D, even in all of my hate and rage.

HowIsThisReal posted 9/6/2019 17:08 PM

Can I ask what your endgame was? (before DDay2 that is) Was this pattern of punishment ever going to change out did you see it just going on indefinitely?

I wanted to change my behavior, I genuinely wanted us to work out and have a new, better M. I forgave myself for acting that way at first, I was devastated.
But after a while, I knew I was being awful. I just always felt more in control that way.

[This message edited by HowIsThisReal at 5:14 PM, September 6th (Friday)]

HowIsThisReal posted 9/6/2019 17:13 PM

SaddestDad my thoughts align with yours honestly. It feels like a "d-day" but not necessarily a "D-DAY".

It almost feels like a wake up call for me that he could walk away, that other women would indeed want him, and that I'm actually NOT in control by treating him this way.

His previous cheating wasn't an affair, it was sex with strangers, that he didn't know or care to know. These people he met didn't care what he looked like. It wasn't a "lines crossed with friends or coworkers" type of deal.

I had such contempt for him, saw him through such a horrible, ugly view that I never even thought that other people would be attracted to him.

Just as love can tint your view of someone and make them more attractive to you, this had tinted my view and made him seem ugly to me.

[This message edited by HowIsThisReal at 9:12 AM, September 7th (Saturday)]

HowIsThisReal posted 9/6/2019 17:16 PM

HE needs to stand up to her and let her know it was not kosher to kiss him.

He did that the day after I found out.

[This message edited by HowIsThisReal at 8:34 PM, September 11th (Wednesday)]

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