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WornDown posted 5/14/2019 20:22 PM

1) If I as a BH decide to marry someone who has had sex with a large variety of partners, I have EVERY RIGHT to be pissed as fucking hell if they decide to cheat on me.

How does marrying someone who had multiple partners mean you can be mad? Of course you can be mad. Why wouldn't you?

The corollary to your statement is that if you married someone who DIDN'T have many partners, that you COULDN'T get mad.

That makes no sense at all.

2) Based on the research, however, I have NO RIGHT to be surprised that they did.

If someone made vows to you, then yes you do have a right to be surprised.

Unless of course you are just saying that a whore who has slept with lots of people in the past, just can't be trusted. At all. So what should you expect from an untrustworthy ho?

Which is what I am hearing you say.

stolenyears posted 5/14/2019 22:26 PM

I feel that 46.3% of all statistics are made up on the fly.

cheatstroke posted 5/15/2019 08:13 AM

"Since people do like strange, they WILL cheat."

I never said "Since people do like strange, they WILL cheat." What I said was that a research study has shown that "a greater acceptance of casual sex" is related to "a greater likelihood of engaging in cheating behavior".

People who have had a lot of casual sex with a lot of partners tend to be proud of that fact. They consider themselves more worldly and have more to offer sexually than someone who is less experienced.

What's wrong with someone who has had a lot of casual sex with a large variety of people, saying up front, "I just want you to know that I have had a lot of casual sex with a large number of people. I have never cheated on anyone/I have cheated on someone. I just wanted you to know that so that there are no surprises in case things get more serious."?

Remember, I am talking about a BS who is likely looking for someone to MARRY. For that BS who is looking for someone to marry, and for that someone who is considering marrying that BS, wouldn't it be in the best interest of BOTH OF THEM if early on they had an open honest conversation about each other's sexual past AND each other's sexual hangups (if any) so that there are no secrets and no surprises?

What's the magic number that means someone is more likely to cheat? I would say for me the number that would make me uncomfortable is somewhere north of 50.

There, I've answered your question. Now, let's see if you will answer mine.

Suppose you are dating someone and they suddenly announce "You know, I have been with over X people."

What number for X, and you know there's a number, would start to make you uncomfortable?

What number for X would change you from "I'm cool with that" to "JESUS F*ING CHRIST!"? 100? 500? 1000+?

[This message edited by cheatstroke at 8:22 AM, May 15th (Wednesday)]

cheatstroke posted 5/15/2019 09:02 AM

Bonus question: Is the number the same for men and women? Is it different? Why?

Great questions! I'm a guy so I don't know, but my impression is that when a man says to a woman, "You know, I have been with over X women", if X is a large number, the woman tends to think "Wow, if that many women have said 'yes' to him, he must really be something. I wonder if I'm the one who's hot enough to finally get him to settle down."

When a WOMAN says, "You know, I have been with over X men", if X is a large number, the man tends to think, "Wow, if she has said 'yes' to that many men, she must really like sex with a lot of guys. I think I'd better look elsewhere."

I don't know why there is this difference but I suspect the blame is at least partly with the WOMEN for letting their egos tell them "Wow, I'm the one who's hot enough to finally get him to settle down".

The blame is also at least partly with the MEN for letting their egos tell them "Wow, she's been with a lot of guys. I think I'm a better man than some guy who would marry someone who has slept with that many men."

hikingout posted 5/15/2019 09:17 AM

Great questions! I'm a guy so I don't know, but my impression is that when a man says to a woman, "You know, I have been with over X women", if X is a large number, the woman tends to think "Wow, if that many women have said 'yes' to him, he must really be something. I wonder if I'm the one who's hot enough to finally get him to settle down."

Nah, most of us would just think you were gross, just like men would think it was gross for a woman. But, like you I tend to think that it could be a biggish number before I would even be worried about it. If the guy had been single for long portion of his adult life, let's say 10 years - 5 partners a year you get 50. or even 2 you are already at 20.

I tend to agree with my husband though, I think choosing a partner, you have to take in a lot of information about a person and who they are at present day to decide. I doubt highly anyone is choosing a mate depending on statistical information. And, I think until you have cheated or been cheated on, you may not think to ask a ton of questions that are pertinent to cheating. Other than the run of the mill ones. You may be more cautious for red flags, but you don't want to over correct and miss a good person either.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:17 AM, May 15th (Wednesday)]

TKOGA posted 5/15/2019 09:46 AM

"I'm a guy, so I don't know.."
Clearly you don't. That assumption you just made about women when they hear a man has a very large number is absolutely absurd. I think both genders would be off put when they hear their partner say "I've been with 140 people." That's why I don't think discussing a number is a good idea. At all. Just a general discussion of romantic history. "I enjoyed dating around in my early 20's but I have had two major relationships that both ended amicably" sort of thing. Or "you need to be patient with me because I've been cheated on and take a while to trust people." Just be compassionate towards others. Not so judgmental.

Striver posted 5/15/2019 10:59 AM

Statistically, I would go with the virgin. Better odds. I know we have cases here where they didn't work out. This place is 100% infidelity, not a good sample. Plus maybe the first and onlies who cheated are more hurt and more likely to come here. Speculation on my part.

Past is not always prologue. Some women with a wild past are trying to escape that in LTR and can go vanilla or even dead bedroom as a result. On the other hand, a man can be a player, get sick of the lifestyle, find "the one", go all beta, and not be giving his W the more indifferent man who pings more emotions in her. He's not really giving her what he advertised as! Heh.

cheatstroke posted 5/15/2019 11:12 AM

I think choosing a partner, you have to take in a lot of information about a person and who they are at present day to decide. I doubt highly anyone is choosing a mate depending on statistical information.
Hikingout

I don't think discussing a number is a good idea. At all. Just a general discussion of romantic history.
TKOGA

I guess where I'm coming from Hikingout and TKOGA is trying to decide if someone COULD even determine whether someone has a higher likelihood of cheating on you or not.

This study says that you can. It has found a relation between "a greater acceptance of casual sex" and "a greater likelihood of engaging in cheating behavior".

That says that something does in fact exist (statistics) that show whether someone has a higher likelihood of cheating on you or not.

As a BS, trying to determine whether someone has a higher likelihood of cheating on you or not is a big deal. You don't want what happened before to happen again. If it does, naturally as a BS you're going to think, "It happened again. Fool me twice shame on me. Why am I such a fucking idiot?"

It has been passionately stated (to say the least) on SI that asking someone's number is VERBOTEN. I sometimes wonder if some people are so passionate about it that asking them would bring injury or death.

What people have said IS ok to ask is whether someone has cheated in the past or knowingly been an AP. This strikes me as "absolutely absurd" because WTF is someone who's cheated in the past or knowingly been an AP going to answer? "ABSOLUTELY NO FUCKING WAY!" of course, with all their fingers and toes crossed.

WornDown posted 5/15/2019 11:53 AM

This study says that you can. It has found a relation between "a greater acceptance of casual sex" and "a greater likelihood of engaging in cheating behavior".

That says that something does in fact exist (statistics) that show whether someone has a higher likelihood of cheating on you or not.

Correlation does not equal causation. You're making the critical error of thinking it does.

Which leads to...

I guess where I'm coming from Hikingout and TKOGA is trying to decide if someone COULD even determine whether someone has a higher likelihood of cheating on you or not.

As a BS, trying to determine whether someone has a higher likelihood of cheating on you or not is a big deal. You don't want what happened before to happen again. If it does, naturally as a BS you're going to think, "It happened again. Fool me twice shame on me. Why am I such a fucking idiot?"

You can't predict it. You can't look at someone and think, They have a 62.35% chance of cheating; just like you can't say they have a 12.483% chance of doing so.

It's the same fallacy as "affair proofing" your marriage. No matter how much you fuck, buy flowers, clean the dishes, whatever...if the other person decides to cheat, they are going to decide to cheat.

The ONLY two factors that seem to be iron clad (avoid them like the plauge) are people who constantly crave attention as outside validation of themselves and those with personality disorders (esp BPD and NPD, because they are constantly wanting attention). That's it. But even then, you just want to avoid them because they are toxic, period.

So, the best you can hope for in any relationship (whether reconciling or a new beginning), is to find someone who has a good head on their shoulders, has decent self-esteem, and is honest/genuine.

Then you take the plunge and hope for the best.

Trying to "play the odds" by asking people about their prior sex life, do they like anal, or whatever metric you use to look at their past, is rude at best, a fools errand at worst.

But if you think you have it all unlocked because you read one article (that hasn't been repeated) that says there's a correlation (and there were stronger correlations observed in that article, namely forced sexual abuse/assault when the person was a child - that seeking validation thing (see above)), well...good luck.

Oh, and clue the rest of us in on what the magic number of whore/not whore is.

cheatstroke posted 5/15/2019 12:29 PM

The ONLY two factors that seem to be iron clad (avoid them like the plauge) are people who constantly crave attention as outside validation of themselves and those with personality disorders (esp BPD and NPD, because they are constantly wanting attention). That's it. But even then, you just want to avoid them because they are toxic, period.

Ok WornDown, you win. But please enlighten us on how to determine whether someone "craves attention as outside validation of themselves" or not. I don't have the time or the inclination to get a fucking Psychology degree.

Also please enlighten us on how to determine if someone has a personality disorder or not. I also don't have the time or the inclination to get a fucking Psychiatry degree.

Just a "Top 5 Ways to Determine if Someone Craves Attention or has a Personality Disorder" will suffice.

WornDown posted 5/15/2019 12:49 PM

Ok WornDown, you win. But please enlighten us on how to determine whether someone "craves attention as outside validation of themselves" or not. I don't have the time or the inclination to get a fucking Psychology degree.

Also please enlighten us on how to determine if someone has a personality disorder or not. I also don't have the time or the inclination to get a fucking Psychiatry degree.

Just a "Top 5 Ways to Determine if Someone Craves Attention or has a Personality Disorder" will suffice.

It's not hard. You can take a look in the ICR forums for detailed descriptions.

But the simple versions are:

It's all about ME.
What do you think about ME?
What have you done for ME today? Right this minute?
Tell ME how great I am.
You want something from ME? How about I get something from you?
I've not done anything wrong - it's always someone else's fault.

If you really need a psychology degree to figure out who are toxic, immature, selfish people, constantly craving attention...

well...you've got more problems than just trying to put the odds on whether your SO will cheat.

[This message edited by WornDown at 12:50 PM, May 15th (Wednesday)]

hikingout posted 5/15/2019 12:58 PM

Just a "Top 5 Ways to Determine if Someone Craves Attention or has a Personality Disorder" will suffice.

I know I shouldn't have but I laughed out loud at this.

I think the hard thing is that some of the people with the personality disorders are often some of the most charming and dynamic people you will ever meet. I know a few serial cheaters, and one narcissist. It would be pretty easy to get sucked into their dynamic. Some things I have read state that people who are empaths are usually the ones who draw in the narcissistic person because the narc can feed off them the best.

I don't think you can tell if someone will cheat on you. Even if you go by statistics, it's not going to be reliable.

I have a friend who just got out of a two year relationship, and she was devastated to learn that the person really didn't feel about her the way he presented or the way she felt about him. She now thinks its her fault that she fell for his love bombing at the beginning of their relationship.

I don't think it's her fault, and she could avoid a good person in the future if she takes someone sending her flowers as a red flag. That's how humans mess up other humans.

Its a hard truth that the only person we can really control in this life is ourselves. The best thing that anyone can do after having been cheated on is to heal themselves so that when they do meet someone down the line, they are emotionally and mentally healthy and ready. We are told by experts that when we are this way we can draw better mates. I don't know if the experts are right about that, but being healed and being whole would be good advice to anyone. Probably the better thing to work on than tracking down statistical information that is only going to confuse the issue.

Sexual numbers might be important if it all just happened, say they had 50 partners in the last year instead of the last decade. But, many of us had some more promiscuous times in college or in our 20s and our behaviors have not been that way in decades. I just don't think the numbers tell you anything without context.

cheatstroke posted 5/15/2019 15:01 PM

being healed and being whole would be good advice to anyone

Thank you Hikingout. Do you happen to know of any specific threads on here that can help a person know WHEN they are being healed and being whole?

Also, do you know of any specific threads that can help a person know what to do to BECOME healed and whole?

And lastly, do you know of any threads that can help a person know what "The Work" is that a WS is supposed to do? Again, I'm looking for something like a "Top 10 Things That a WS Should be Doing if a WS is Truly Doing the Work" or something like that.

hikingout posted 5/15/2019 15:25 PM

Cheatstroke,

I am going to assume you are seriously asking the question and it's not rhetorical or sarcastic?

The work someone does on oneself would be very specific to the person. For me, as a WS, I had to find the things that were within me that contributed to my cheating and unhappiness. And, while my list is bigger than this by a long shot, to keep it simple I will just give you a few things - I had low self worth, I felt entitled/selfish, I was conflict avoidant.

The hardest thing, and probably the root of everything is I have had to try and build up my self worth. This required IC to work on healing some of the things in my past that contributed to it. I read books about it. I have practiced numerous things that are supposed to contribute to it. I have tried to be focused and mindful of the stories I tell myself, especially about myself.

I guess most people who are looking to do self improvement would have a lot of different ways they have gone about it, but that's mine.

Healing is harder, I don't think you can will it to happen, and it takes time and stages. But, there are similar elements of examining the stories you tell yourself, reading about it, journaling, talking with others, for some it could require therapy. I am sure the BS's could give you things that have helped them. I have had to heal from things in the past, but not anything as traumatic as infidelity.

My post wasn't about any of that being perfect, but striving for these things are ways we get there. I am not sure if I answered you adequately but maybe others could chime in.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:27 PM, May 15th (Wednesday)]

cheatstroke posted 5/15/2019 16:27 PM

Thank you again Hikingout. Sorry if it seemed that these were rhetorical or sarcastic. They were actually serious questions. WornDown said I needed to start looking in ICR so I was just wondering if you or anyone else might happen to know of specific threads there or elsewhere that might address those questions.

The question about "The Work" was not regarding this thread. I just threw it in there because I've seen you and others talking about "The Work" and wanted to know if anyone knew of a thread that maybe explains "The Work" in concise terms or provides an outline or something. Some of the threads get so verbose that I get lost so that's why I was looking for something in more concise terms or maybe in a "Top 10" format.

The questions about being "healed" and "whole" were more about what that looks like. What does it look like according to someone who considers themselves healed and whole after infidelity?

hikingout posted 5/15/2019 17:07 PM

Cheatstroke - foreverlabeled wrote a piece on her work a while back - the thread is titled “the work”. That’s just what we call the focused effort we make in being better people.

I can’t speak much to a bs’s work. I don’t know how you know if you are healed in your scenario. But I think it would be a good indicator in finding personal peace? I will let the bs’s chime in on that and maybe they can tell you what their path there looked like. Maybe start a string and ask the question?

deephurt posted 5/15/2019 17:52 PM

I didn’t read that thread I don’t think it maybe I did when it started and didn’t continue.

My take is that if I am interested in having any firm
If sexual or intimate relationship with anyone that my questions be answered if I want and I answer questions that my so wants answered.

I believe to have a good relationship that there is complete transparency about anything and everything including before the relationship started. No lying, complete honesty.

Our previous actions make up who we are and possibly what we carry and if I want an honest relationship with someone, then there are no secrets and they have every right to know about my sexual history.

My wh doesn’t feel comfortable taking about it. I get why but if I want to know how many women he had oral with, then I should be able to have that information. And most importantly the amount of partners he has had unprotected sex with-oral being unprotected where hpv is concerned.

One of the worst parts of being cheated on was being unknowingly exposed to others that I didn’t consent to. I would at least like the opportunity to know what I may be consenting to.

Unbroken78 posted 5/15/2019 18:13 PM

In YOUR relationship, YOU have the absolute right to set the standards for YOUR partner. You are a human being with agency over your life and you get to decide who can be in it or not. You are not wrong to set standards and hold to them. If others don't like those standards, they are free to leave.

Those standards can absolutely be sexual in nature.

You are never obligated to have sex with someone, to allow someone to be in your life if they don't meet your standards, or to marry someone.

The reverse slut shaming is absurd. Nobody has to accept anyone's past. Everyone is free to live as they choose and accept/reject whomever they wish for whatever reason they wish.

If it bothers you that your partner isn't a virgin, you are free to go find one. It's your call. Nobody has a right to tell you otherwise....especially the high partner count crowd.

Live your life how you see fit. You don't need permission to do so.

BraveSirRobin posted 5/15/2019 22:54 PM

In my case, it's less about feeling upset that I don't have a right to ask and more about learning how socially clueless I would unknowingly have been in such a situation. It's not like I would have shown up with a clipboard, asking for every detail, but I absolutely would have brought the topic up at some early point in a new relationship, just because that wasn't a faux pas back when I was a teenager. These threads remind me yet again that there's a major stage of life that I skipped over, and getting involved with someone new at 50 would be like going into a business negotiation or tea with the queen without knowing the proper etiquette. Just one more reason to be thankful that it isn't in the cards for me!

cheatstroke posted 5/16/2019 14:34 PM

Trying to prevent getting hurt usually becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy in terms of negative relationship outcomes.
KingRat

Yeah, I think this is definitely true. I think just bringing up the topic of infidelity with a prospective partner is just letting them know it's a sore spot with you and potentially giving them another "stick to beat you with" should you enter into a relationship with them.

I'm starting to think the words "negative" and "relationship" are synonymous. Prostitutes and the good ol' right hand sound like much better options right now than trying to guess whether some woman is going to be a cheating asshole or not. At least prostitutes won't cheat on you.

And who knows? Maybe getting into a relationship with a former prostitute IS the best option. A woman who's been with hundreds or thousands sure as shit isn't going to wonder what sex is like with some coworker. And she also sure as shit isn't going to be talked into anything by some silver-tongued high-partner count prick vomiting up a bunch of bullshit pickup lines.

Life's a fucking bitch so I guess it should be no surprise if you end up married to one.