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BS Questions for WS's - Part 13

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maise posted 4/17/2019 12:31 PM

Thanks for your response, BraveSirRobin. Guess only with time I'll see if my Ws gets it! This section of the threads is really helpful though. Reading through you all's responses just today brought on some moments of clarity that I had been needing. I appreciate you all taking the time.

BetrayedPR77 posted 4/19/2019 14:22 PM

After searching the forum, I think this is be the perfect place to ask this:

Why sometimes it's not easier for some WS/WW to simply say: ďI'm sorry BW/BH, my love for you is gone, I can't go on, etc.Ē than dragging thru a (potentially) false R and then leaving you on the side of the road?

I ask with all the respect for the WS/WW who are truly doing the healing work, on them (finding the why's, introspect, etc.) and their M.

But this is something I struggle with since DDay (and maybe today this is what's bothering me). Shouldn't be less painful (yes I know, pain will be there always) for both parts, if you could hear sincerely from the wayward what they really want? What can be holding a WW/WS to say this?

foreverlabeled posted 4/19/2019 15:29 PM

BetrayedPR77,

My first thought is what one calls a cake eater. Perhaps you provide something for your WS that she isn't ready to let go of. But I say that with very little information to go on.

It would have been easier for me to tell my H that I wanted a divorce before I stepped out and cheated. But I didn't want to lose the life I had. I was a cake eater.

At the root of it, it comes down to fear and discomfort in my experience.

BraveSirRobin posted 4/19/2019 17:24 PM

Why sometimes it's not easier for some WS/WW to simply say: ďI'm sorry BW/BH, my love for you is gone, I can't go on, etc.Ē than dragging thru a (potentially) false R and then leaving you on the side of the road?
This is not a case where I can answer from my own experience, because I never wanted to split up with my BH, but I am familiar enough with my own wayward thought patterns to be able to speculate.

I'm sure that some of the wayward population is driven by pure cake eating. They see no reason why the M can't continue on their terms. They may pay lip service to the requirements of R, but they don't really expect to lose the M if they don't comply. This version of a wayward is devoid of empathy and stays because of laziness and entitlement until the next "something better" comes along.

Then there's version 2, the wayward who "doesn't want to be the kind of person who would leave." This may just be a surface concern -- what would it do to my business, my standing in the community, etc, if I were exposed as a cheater who would break my marriage vows. But I think there's a subset group that can't even bear to see themselves as the kind of person who would abandon someone they promised to love. In a devastating irony, this group genuinely believes that leaving the spouse in an honest way is worse than cheating on them and blowing their world apart. They have a deep, deep need to (in the words of my BH) "not see themselves as the villain in their own story." The WS who dumps the BS and rides into the sunset is a villain, so the one who gives up their star-crossed true love to live a life of duty for their family must be a hero. Since they're not prepared to vilify the BS, they rewrite the spouse's role as a kind of faithful employee that they keep around from a sense of obligation and gratitude for past service. And then, when the next AP comes along (or the old AP resurfaces), they've proven themselves through sacrifice... so surely, they've earned a little fun?

It is almost impossible to underestimate the contortions that a wayward brain can go through to avoid facing the depths of its own selfishness and cruelty.

Blindsided75 posted 4/19/2019 19:09 PM

I am only two months in from DD. I am taking baby steps but what I would like to know from other WS that were hooked on massage parlours - when you were discovered did you miss it. My hubby has been going for at least 9 years and at least twice to three times a week. We did have a great sex life and he now is very remorseful that is one thing I am absolutely sure of. He is seeing an ic who believed he is not a sex addict but was using it to self medicate from depression. Part of me thinks he did it because he could because he is saying he hasnít missed it at all. He is too destroyed and lost to even think about it... Could this be true? I wish I could get in his head

Greyson posted 4/21/2019 20:14 PM

I've largely moved on, but even 7 years out from the last DDay, I constantly ruminate about them filling in blanks.

She had three affairs, the first early in our marriage and then two later. All three AP had some level of authority over her such as a mentor. They were famous, wealthy or well-connected. She claimed she was a victim of their wily ways, exploited by experienced men. I could be satisfied with some level of naivete on her part with the first one but not the next two. She doesn't play the victim role now. I was not aware of her lying to me between affairs except for keeping them hidden. I mean, she wasn't someone who would lie about the small stuff. How does she become so adept at lying if she wasn't a lier?

My questions are
1) if you felt you were a victim at some point, coerced into the relationship, how did the AP coach you how to lie, what to say, to your BS? If they didn't how did you acquire those skills?
2) if you felt bad after each encounter (not bad enough), how did the AP encourage you to overcome your bad feelings to keep the affair alive, answer his phone calls, and see him privately?
3) Assuming you had a good relationship with your BS before the affair, how long did you take to vilify your BS suffiently to move the affair along to sex and did the AP participate in that vilification?

Thank you.

NeverHealed posted 4/22/2019 08:32 AM

Instructed to move this from Reconciliation to here:

A lot gets written on these forums about the WSs rewriting the marriage, and the BS, making things much worse than they really were, to justify the A.
Do you WSs agree that happened? Do you now have the ďtrueĒ memories? Or has the rewriting become your reality? And, of course, you donít even recognize that you have rewritten.

In my case, my WW has absolutely rewritten things. Her memories sometimes astonish me. But they are her reality. And I donít come off very well in that reality. So I am living with a woman who doesn't think much of me, as a husband, father, or person. Given some of her memories, I donít think I'd like me very much, either.

Now, I'm not claiming to be Mr. Wonderful. But Iím not as bad as she remembers.

Is there anything to be done?

hikingout posted 4/22/2019 09:15 AM

My questions are
1) if you felt you were a victim at some point, coerced into the relationship, how did the AP coach you how to lie, what to say, to your BS? If they didn't how did you acquire those skills?

I don't feel that I was a victim. I was there making decisions, and I knew what I was doing was wrong. However, I will say the AP was experienced at having affairs and probably did know how to navigate it better than I. Because it was distance most of the hiding and lying was based on what was happening on my phone. The only thing that he helped with was told me about the alternative texting apps. I didn't know about them or how they existed.

2) if you felt bad after each encounter (not bad enough), how did the AP encourage you to overcome your bad feelings to keep the affair alive, answer his phone calls, and see him privately?

Not applicable in my situation as much. There was plotting, but I didn't feel it was led by him.
I think some of this line of thinking is a cop out from your wife. I wasn't a liar either prior to the affair, it doesn't mean that I was incapable of it, it just means I didn't do it.


3) Assuming you had a good relationship with your BS before the affair, how long did you take to vilify your BS suffiently to move the affair along to sex and did the AP participate in that vilification?


I didn't vilify, but I rewrote marital history. I took things that were true and twisted them to mean we had never been right for each other. It's ridiculous because in the couple of years since the affair, I have seen all my facebook memories and all the shout outs I have given my husband. We've always had a good marriage. My affair was short, so it didn't take long. I had sex with AP at about the month marker, and I think the sex for me was what changed the tide. We as women can be very attached by having sex as you probably know. I think for me it wasn't the vilifying to have the sex, but the sex that made the re-writing occur. I think it's partially due to bonding with someone else that I shouldn't have and cognitive dissonance.

Overall, I don't think if she is making herself the victim after 3 affairs that she is in any way owning her shit on this. I was the lesser experienced one in the affair and I know I egged him on. I do not feel that he told me what to do or say, and I had the affair because I wanted to have it. So, unless her answers can get closer to that she's not really evaluating herself in my opinion.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:16 AM, April 22nd (Monday)]

hikingout posted 4/22/2019 09:20 AM

Instructed to move this from Reconciliation to here:
A lot gets written on these forums about the WSs rewriting the marriage, and the BS, making things much worse than they really were, to justify the A.
Do you WSs agree that happened? Do you now have the ďtrueĒ memories? Or has the rewriting become your reality? And, of course, you donít even recognize that you have rewritten.
In my case, my WW has absolutely rewritten things. Her memories sometimes astonish me. But they are her reality. And I donít come off very well in that reality. So I am living with a woman who doesn't think much of me, as a husband, father, or person. Given some of her memories, I donít think I'd like me very much, either.
Now, I'm not claiming to be Mr. Wonderful. But Iím not as bad as she remembers.
Is there anything to be done?


How far out from dday are you? The reason I ask is I did all the stuff you are talking about. I don't think I made him out to be worse, more our marriage but the concept is the same. It takes a while for everything to unravel in the foggy mind of a WS. I know that I did this, I know what the truth is, and I know my husband is a wonderful man and that we had a good marriage.

Read about cognitive dissonance. During the affair, we tell ourselves stories to keep justifying behaviors. It's sort of a brainwashing. But, that unravels the more we come back to terms with living our lives the way we are supposed to, feeling remorse, understanding that we were telling ourselves stories. I would say that it took several months to do that. If she is fresh from the affair, she may be pining (I hate to tell you that) and while you are pining you are still experiencing the cognitive dissonance because in some ways the affair continues in the mind. How long was the affair? When was ddday?

NeverHealed posted 4/22/2019 10:54 AM

hikingout

LTA, 3 yrs maybe. Dday many years ago. We rugswept. I did everything wrong. Now the kids are gone, and I'm trying to decide what to do.

We are talking about it now, but the answers are not good. I only want to stay if she truly cares about me, and I don't believe she does.

She cares about the kids, and the lifestyle, and not being embarrassed, and not being alone, but not about me. She's trying to convince me otherwise, but it's not working, yet.

And I wonder how she can ever get past her reality of our relationship.

Darkness Falls posted 4/22/2019 11:23 AM

No, I never rewrote the marriage. My marriage was acceptable and nothing about it or my H was the reason I had an affair.

hikingout posted 4/22/2019 13:52 PM

I hate to say this, but if 3 years out she still has not realized she has re-written the marriage, or villainized you in order to justify her affair, that's a big issue. I think we were a few months out when I realized I had done that. There wasn't any rug sweeping, and I read a lot to get to that epiphany or knowledge. I would not have realized it on my own. I think I would have just thought "oh, we had a rough spell there and I cheated, that's all over with now". I could see trying to go that route. But, the pain was just everywhere and I needed to get the bleeding to stop.

I don't think it's too late to re-approach her and say "I don't think we've ever evaluated the infidelity in the right way. I would love nothing more than for us to have a great marriage and partnership, but we have some work to do that we didn't do earlier". That is if you lean towards that. You don't owe it to anyone if you don't.

And to clarify over Darkness Falls answer - I do not believe my husband or my marriage was why I cheated. I cheated because I decided to do that instead of dealing with my own reality. I did it because I wanted to do it at the time. The re-writing happened because I was telling myself stories to justify it during the A. Your wife should see that by now.

Lucky77 posted 4/22/2019 20:03 PM

Hi Greyson

Im a male WS.
Iím trying to picture the ďrightĒ answers to your Qís
Iím really stuck in the mystery in the whole process of the affair.
So much of it is unquantifiable. So hard to describe.
While firm answers are great they are hard to come by. Terms like ďlimeranceĒ must be hard for WS to understand.

I have no idea why I went so far off the rails like I did. I know I promised my W eternal monogamy. But it didnít happen. Itís my fault.


Greyson posted 4/22/2019 22:34 PM

Hiking out,
Thank you for your answer.
I think you have answered another question when you said sex created the attachment. The beginning of my WW's first affair took only days and two meetings to progress to PA. She returned to him in LDA six weeks later for one more two-week stay while I was away. I thought it was an affair of opportunity with no emotion until I saw her unhappy reaction when I told her that he had died (of natural causes) 10 years after the affair was over. I thought that "sex created the attachment" was more of a male approach. Can you explore this further?

Lucky77, keep working on yourself. As BS, I have been stuck too, trying to figure out how this solidly Christian woman could do this to me. I really didn't come from a Christian home, but became one later. Yet I had the firm boundaries. I can see why she loved attention because of her FOO. I love attention too in a different way. Since her revelation of her second and third affairs, I have wondered what her true level of commitment is to me.

Once you have cheated, How do you know you are truly committed to your marriage?

I believe my WW is committed to me by her actions, but I had no clue she was carrying on her three affairs when she did. (I had clues but didn't put them together. I had lots of Ahah moments after both confessions) We vacationed, we talked, we exercised together. But her affairs occurred on her time when I was at work. She didn't respect how much I had to work to support us.

After your affairs were over, How long did you take to change your negative opinion of your BS to a positive one or to regain respect for your BS?

Vegas1985 posted 4/23/2019 13:56 PM

When you decided to R, did you immediately fully accept responsibility for what you did and do all the "right" things? After ending the A, was there any ambivalence or uncertainty about R on your part or did you immediately know/decide that it was going to work out?

hikingout posted 4/23/2019 14:08 PM

I thought that "sex created the attachment" was more of a male approach. Can you explore this further?
I am not sure what you are asking, I don't know how that's a male approach. It's scientifically proven that during sex chemicals are released in the brain that creates euphoria and bonding. It's also pretty documented that women often (not all women) "catch feelings" when they have sex. I think in my case, it was sort of like that. But, also because I had crossed "the point of no return" the cognitive dissonance I felt made me place more importance or emphasis on the "relationship" than I had prior.


Once you have cheated, How do you know you are truly committed to your marriage?

I think of marriage the way I always did - it's a commitment of choosing your spouse daily. I learned through the process that my idea of love had gotten skewed. I don't think there are guarantees in any marriage - but the mindfulness of making daily effort towards that commitment. I am 100 percent sure I would not cheat again, and that I do want my marriage. That I love my husband. But, I think I am more aware of the fragility of love and relationships. What I mean when I say this, H and I had been together long enough to think we were "unbreakable", and that we were a "given". My approach to the marriage is now - nothing is a given. Nothing is unbreakable. We have to handle it with care. I am not sure I am answering your question, but that's the way I see my marriage now.

After your affairs were over, How long did you take to change your negative opinion of your BS to a positive one or to regain respect for your BS?
I don't honestly know. It was several months. I didn't think of him negatively in the villainized way, but when you are in the fog and "pining" you are not showing your spouse the respect they deserve. I did know that we'd been good together and knew I wanted to try to R from the beginning. (I confessed on my own so that we could move forward in an honest relationship) but my feelings of attachment to the OM were not a lightswitch. I wanted them to be, but it took a while to unwind the truth of the situation.

hikingout posted 4/23/2019 14:13 PM

When you decided to R, did you immediately fully accept responsibility for what you did and do all the "right" things? After ending the A, was there any ambivalence or uncertainty about R on your part or did you immediately know/decide that it was going to work out?

No. I believe it's possible for someone to be that way depending on the circumstances of the affair. In my case, I believed I was in love with the OM. So, that in itself created a lot of conflict within me.

I still had some of my logic though. I thought that H and I had so many good years that I needed to commit to the process and work at it to see what could happen between us. And, that's what I did. I worked very hard to get out of the destructive mindset that I had, and was fully committed to the process. I wanted for it to work, but given the mess I made and the shame I felt I definitely did not know what the outcome would be. I don't think anyone can do that.

And, in the same breath I will tell you that a WS who has just gotten out of an affair is still sitting there with all the issues they had going into the affair and more from the affair. If you are a new BS, and you believe you would like R, then I would limit my energy to taking care of you. Watch the WS and wait before trying to return any investment into them. It takes time for them to prove consistency and that they are working on themselves. True change is slow.

sickofsurviving posted 4/23/2019 16:10 PM

My cheater as stated, on more than one occasion, that because we have stayed married, he has had no consequences. What consequences do you feel like you have had?

Darkness Falls posted 4/23/2019 17:54 PM

What consequences do you feel like you have had?

I was divorced. I lost 4 years of what would have been part of my married life including the chance to have children as a younger womanóIím not crazy about being on the downswing to 40 and still trying to conceive to make our family complete.

My FOO, my inlaws, and our mutual friends and coworkers know that I cheated. Itís something Iím ashamed of.

He started fucking my ďbffĒ before I had even moved out of the marital home. Then when we got back together he gaslighted me by denying that it was in any way for revenge. We still have to see her around occasionally and I have to pretend to get along with her because she is part of our social circle.

I had to do an enormous overhaul of my personality and character. I spent painful time examining the ugliest parts of myself and working to improve them. Itís hard work Iíll have to continue my whole life.

I will always see an invisible scarlet letter when I look at myself and my life.

I will always know I hurt my husband more than anyone else in the world ever has, and I will always have to live with that.

Followtheriver posted 4/23/2019 19:03 PM

Sickofsurviving,

My cheater as stated, on more than one occasion, that because we have stayed married, he has had no consequences. What consequences do you feel like you have had?

If you mean by physical consequences, I would probably agree with your WH, in that I haven't really had any.

My BH chose not to expose to anyone. He told me on D-day that he wanted to see if we could try and R. He never asked for a postnup. He did have conditions, like total transparency, deal with my FOO, do the work to fix myself, help him heal and make us and our M a priority. But I never saw them as consequences. I saw them as a way to become worthy of his gift of R.

Facing my FOO demons, which meant going back into the bowels of hell, were a condition of R, but I can not even call that a consequence because I knew that I needed to do it and was finally ready to fix what they broke, whether we R or D.

Even now, 3+ years after D-day, my BH doesn't limit me socially. He wants me to have girls night out, do things with friends, he even pushes me to get out of the house more. He doesn't want me to be subservient. He knows that I found my voice while fixing all of my shit and he is more than ok when I use it. He considers us a team, we take turns being QB and trust each other in calling the best plays for our team. While he is always the Coach, I sometimes play ref and will throw a penalty flag in his direction.

My personal consequence is getting up every morning, looking in the mirror and knowing what kind of person I used to be, what I was capable of and having to live with that knowledge.

I will say that for me personally, not having any "hard" consequences has made me strive even harder to become the person that I am today and to want to be an even better person tomorrow. I want to continue to grow to prove to myself and my BH that I am worthy of all that he has given me.

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