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BS Questions for WS's - Part 13

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Sunny69 posted 3/20/2019 05:35 AM

It seems that WS struggles to give up AP because of the feel good factor they give them. Being wanted/desired. So much so that it stops them investing properly and committing to their primary relationship. How does this dynamic change when the AP has other AP's? I believe my WS orginally stopped sleeping with his MAP, because he thought she had started seeing her previous AP again. It didn't stop him pursuing her though and trying to engineer recoupling's for the next 18 months. And yes I know I shouldn't even be wasting my time giving it consideration, but if each and every AP gives you the feel good factor, does it mean you struggle to give any of them up? Or for a serial cheater is it all just a game? As long as they are getting something out of it, who cares. I apprecaite it also reflects a broken person with no self worth, exchanging sex for attention.

layla1234 posted 3/24/2019 15:57 PM

How many of you WS's will admit that your BS doesn't know all the details?? Specifically, any parading around that it was just an EA when it was actually a PA? My husband kept it a secret from me for 3 years that he attended a strip club (it was his first time). That wouldn't have been a big deal, but now I'm in the mindset of if he can keep something like that from me for so long then what else is he capable of/hiding?

BraveSirRobin posted 3/24/2019 16:40 PM

I hid important details of my A, both emotional and physical, from my BH for 29 years. He now knows everything I can remember, with open offers for polygraph and hypnosis to back that up. I guess my question, as far as whether your WS is likely to be hiding more, is how you found out about the strip club. Was he outed by evidence, or did he choose to share with you? Did you ask, or did he volunteer it for some other reason?

I think the best way that I've started to rebuild trust with my BH is offering details that he didn't even know to ask about. It hurts, for sure, and at first, we both questioned whether it was just a form of pain shopping. In our case, it was not, because what I offered made the whole picture of the A fit together in ways that did not make sense before. I guess I'm saying that if you still feel like the things you know don't add up, your gut is probably correct that there's more being hidden from you. If new specifics are painful but consistent with the overall narrative of the A, it's more likely that you're getting to the bottom of the TT.

SaddestDad posted 3/24/2019 16:48 PM

I hid important details of my A, both emotional and physical, from my BH for 29 years.

BraveSirRobin,

29 YEARS?!?!

How exactly does that get maintained for so long without coming out?
Not to shame you (trust me, I know it sounds otherwise) but I'm hoping you and others can answer this honestly and fully:

How did you live with yourself and him for that long keeping such secrets?

How do you live with the knowledge that you were lying by omission for so very long to the man who's stood by you for even longer, even after his world and view of you was initially shattered?

I'm still a newbie... but I'm baffled and mind-blown... and honestly, I probably would still be baffled even if I weren't so new to this shitty club.

layla1234 posted 3/24/2019 16:54 PM

Bravesir, it came out after I found out about his A. He was coming clean about everything supposedly, even though details of the affair were still hidden at that point so of course that carries no weight with me. Anything I've found out, I've pretty much had to ask.

This is the toughest part of healing for me. That there are holes in their "relationship". Things that don't make sense still.

Specifically, I wonder if he is being truthful about the start of it. He knew this woman and worked with her for 7 years. I always had a weird feeling around her and WH and I got into an argument in 2012 because he bought her a drink at a bar we were at. He didn't even get me anything. When she got married in 2017, I was honestly relieved. Now that I know she had no problem cheating on her husband, what would have stopped her from doing anything with him while she was single?

[This message edited by layla1234 at 5:04 PM, March 24th (Sunday)]

Darkness Falls posted 3/24/2019 17:47 PM

layla,

My husband doesn’t know all the details, because he never wanted to. He obviously knew the basics of that it was EA and PA, approximately how long it lasted, etc. But yeah, there are a ton of small details that he doesn’t know.

Barregirl posted 3/24/2019 19:17 PM

My BH has any and all of the details he wants to have. He has specifically requested not to know sexual details, other than wanting to know I did not do anything with AP that I haven't with him. I am not keeping anything from him purposefully, other than what he has asked not to know.

BraveSirRobin posted 3/25/2019 02:41 AM

Not to shame you (trust me, I know it sounds otherwise) but I'm hoping you and others can answer this honestly and fully: How did you live with yourself and him for that long keeping such secrets?

No offense taken, SaddestDad. The reason we're all on this forum is to understand behavior that baffles us, including (in the case of most WS) our own. I’ll do my best to answer “honestly and fully,” with the caveat that “fully” means “very, very long.”

I had my A when my then-BBF and I were in an LDR at different universities, and it took place entirely between two of his visits (about 4 months). BF and I had an understanding that I was dating OM casually, but I became much more romantically and sexually involved with him than the terms of our agreement allowed. I came clean with the worst parts it, the sex and the exchange of I love yous, the first time I saw BBF afterwards. This was during the height of the AIDS crisis, when HIV was a death sentence. OM had claimed to be a virgin, but of course, he was lying, which I discovered after we had unprotected sex. Because of that exposure, the fact that the PA had progressed to intercourse was something that I knew I had to disclose, but I was less sure how to handle the emotional involvement. Although BBF was always my primary relationship, OM claimed to have fallen desperately in love with me, and I felt guilty about making it so clear to him that he was just a side piece. In my screwed up brain, OM was the one who needed my sympathy and support, because he had "lost" and my BBF had "won." (Yes, I believed this despite his lies. I allowed myself to be totally gaslighted.) At the same time, in the two weeks between the end of the A and seeing BBF, my fog started to dissipate. I had been compartmentalizing all thought of the eventual consequences of my actions, and the closer I got to my impending D-Day, the more fear was starting to sink in.

Honestly, I had expected my BBF to be more furious than hurt when I told him about the sex. He had broken up with me once before, when I graduated from high school a year ahead of him, saying that college-bound LDRs never worked out. Two months later, he asked to get back together, but then a few months after that, he suggested that we be able to date other people. From this, I got the impression that he was already unsure about our relationship, so when I went to confess, I thought I might very well be back on the train the next morning, freshly dumped. I was completely off base. BBF was devastated, shaking and begging for reassurance that I still loved him. We had been first and onlies, and he was destroyed that this was no longer true. I was unprepared for his reaction and went into full lying coward mode. I gave him a minimized account of the sex -- one brief instance instead of a full-night, multi-position encounter -- and I glossed over how much physical and romantic interaction OM and I had both before and after that night. Once I had told the lies, I couldn't see how to retract them, especially since BBF seemed to be barely coping with what he already knew.

You would think that seeing BBF’s devastation would have straightened me out immediately, but in fact, I was a terrible candidate for R. I refused to go NC, “reassuring” BBF that the A was over and that OM and I could be just friends. I had no idea what an EA was and thought that everything was fine because I was no longer saying anything sexual/romantic to the OM or allowing him to do so. OM had graduated and moved thousands of miles away. This was years before cel phones, texting, or the internet, so that distance meant more than it does now, but there were still letters, email, and the occasional phone call back and forth. BBF was traumatized by the ongoing threat of OM, who was single and absolutely wanted to restart the relationship, even as an LDR. OM actually flew across the country to visit me for one night, and although I insisted and held to my promise that nothing would happen between us, it's indicative of my total self-centeredness and lack of empathy that I allowed him to see me at all.

Obviously, had SI existed back then, every BS on it (and probably every WS too) would have told BBF to stop playing the pick me dance and kick me to the curb. Instead, he coped by having an ONS with someone at his school, which he announced he was going to do beforehand. I was crushed, but I couldn't see how I had the right to ask him not to do it. At the same time, there were several complicating factors that made me resentful of being portrayed as the only villain in our relationship. After I disclosed my A, BBF admitted that he had spent a night kissing and groping his sister's best friend eighteen months earlier, just a few weeks after we had reconciled from our breakup. He had felt guilty ever since but now regarded the episode as completely trumped by what I had done. It was several months after that fling that he suggested we be able to date other people on a casual basis, which is how I eventually got involved with OM. The irony is that BBF thought that offering me freedom would give me perspective and keep me from feeling trapped in our LDR; I interpreted it as him wanting to play the field, even as I couldn’t understand why he kept bringing it up but never acted on it himself. After the disclosure, I felt like BBF had set me up in a situation that was tailor made for an A and then blamed me for having one, and I used the resentment to justify not going NC.

Any sane person, at this point, would have told us to break up. We had no marriage vows, no kids, no shared finances, and no trust. We were living hundreds of miles apart and had years of college left to go. But we also had years of history, having gotten together when we were only 16. Until the A, we had each other on pedestals. Both of us had experienced deep insecurities -- his that I would find someone smarter and more mature in college and dump him, and mine from mixed signals and a deep lack of self esteem. We didn’t explore and discuss these problems as we should have; we just knew that neither of us wanted to break up. After several months of miserably treading water, we decided that we should either commit to being together or let the relationship go. BBF proposed, on condition that I cut all contact of any kind with OM.

This is where the rugsweeping began. BBF let out a huge exhale; OM was gone from our lives, having accepted that a ring on my finger and my declaration of NC was the end of any ambiguity. I was happy that BBF was committing to me and was willing to put the past behind us. Neither of us thought that everything was completely ok, but both of us were glad to be done with the long, miserable phone calls, crying jags, and silent recrimination. Instead, we were planning a wedding and a future. Of course, this was way too early for R, and there were all kinds of things going on under the surface that neither of us would admit. BBF was having mind movies during sex and panic attacks in daily life, but he was hiding it from me for fear that I might decide R was too much work. I was still emotionally attached to OM, not in the sense that I wanted to resume the A, but worried that I had broken his heart. I maintained NC as promised, but the only way to stop the concern was to push him completely out of my head. This wasn't a healthy process of understanding my whys and coming to view the whole A with revulsion, it was simply blanking out OM's existence and anything associated with it. As a result, I got very good at not thinking about the A at all, including the sexual and romantic details I had never disclosed to BBF. And BBF wasn't asking about the A much any more, either, both because he didn't want to keep reminding me of OM and because he had no idea that he didn't have the full story.

In the early years of our marriage, we had occasional discussions about the A, but none of it was especially deep or helpful. BH never stopped having mind movies and insecurity, but I had no idea about his struggles. I gradually lost most of my memories of the OM, though I’m ashamed to say that I held on to a few moments as ego kibble of the days when two men were fighting over me. I remained NC and lost contact with anyone who would know anything about what OM was up to. BH and I built our lives together, sharing happiness and tragedy, buying our home, having and raising our children, and I honestly thought the A had become a painful episode in our history. Two decades passed without serious discussion of it, and several years went by without any mention of it at all.

Two years ago, as we were approaching our 25th wedding anniversary, BH started having symptoms of a midlife crisis. His business, which had been doing well for a decade, started to falter, and he was faced with giving up on the time and effort he had invested in it and moving on to a new career. As had been the case at a few points in our marriage, the stress and insecurity brought his memories of my A to the forefront. The mind movies intensified and started impacting our sex life. I knew something was wrong, but not what. Sex became more aggressive and less satisfying, which made me withdraw, which compounded the problem. The more BH thought about what I had told him about the affair, the less sense it made to him. Finally, he started testing the water by dropping hints about the parts he didn’t really believe. I was blindsided. Over the course of decades, I had successfully eradicated a lot of what I didn’t want to remember. For what remained, my mind was running on two opposing tracks: one, that I had told BH the most significant facts of the A, so everything else wasn’t really all that relevant, and two, that those details were totally devastating, and that if I admitted them to him at this late date, he would never forgive me. I honestly had few remaining memories of the sex, but what I remembered – the premeditation, the words of consent, the additional positions – how could I tell him all that now? It felt like there was a 19-year-old panicking inside my head, telling me not to be crazy, that there was no one who knew these details but me, and no evidence, so unless I said them aloud, they didn’t really exist. Especially if I didn’t really remember them, which in my panic, I immediately latched onto – what did I really remember for sure? If most of it was hazy, wasn’t all of it suspect? Why hang myself out to dry over something I wasn’t absolutely certain was true?

A big part of my work as a wayward has been the discovery of what a liar and a coward I am. It’s not just about the A. I have developed a pattern of lying, minimizing, and blameshifting to evade consequences throughout my life, both large and small. The answer to “how could you live with yourself and him while lying to him” is that for me, that was the status quo. Now that I see it, it’s astonishing, like walking along in the desert and suddenly seeing the Grand Canyon open up in front of you. “Shit, where did that massive hole come from?” And then I realize I’ve been living on the edge of it my whole life, just looking up at the sky and never glancing down.

I am so ashamed to say that not only did I lie for 29 years, but I put my BH through several weeks of trickle truth before I could get all the details out. I assured him more than once that “that’s everything,” because I had just told him something I never thought I would tell, and that only left a few minor, insignificant (major, highly significant) facts half-seen in the dark corners of my mind. A few days later, he would be saying, “You’re really sure that’s everything?” and I’d let out the next “insignificant” detail that had been swelling up like a malignant cyst, ready to burst. Finally, I realized that I really was on my last chance, that the TT was destroying him by a thousand cuts, that soon he would never believe a word I said about anything, and that nothing I told him now was as bad as it would be later. I took a deep breath and let go of the outcome.

For me, the key was writing. I wrote out my full account of the night of sex. Somehow, it was harder to type a lie than it was to say one, and there was the additional benefit of taking a few minutes to reflect. Several times during TT, I would say something that minimized the truth, and within 90 seconds I would regret it, but I had no idea how to take it back. Writing gave me the chance to read it over and say to myself: Is this really true? To say it to myself harshly, and kindly, and angrily, and sympathetically, and every way that I needed in order to finally admit it. Yes, this is what happened. This is true.

The last thing I’ll add is that it wasn’t until I admitted those truths that I was able to even consider the ways in which I stole my BH’s agency from him. I totally sold myself on the idea that telling him the full story would only hurt him and damage a relationship that he knew he still wanted, even acknowledging the A. The moment when I internalized that I had tricked him, that there was a chance he really could regret having married me, that I might have stolen his life, with no chance of undoing or fixing that monumental betrayal…

Trying to explain what that was like is where I finally run out of words.

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 9:27 AM, March 25th (Monday)]

Brennan87 posted 3/29/2019 09:06 AM

I noticed "wanted/desired" pop up time and time again on here and this is something my WW (and myself) struggles with communicating.

How as a WS in an A does one feel wanted and desired when they know the following:

1) The AP could have been anyone, there was nothing special about the AP.
2) The AP was only in it for sex, there were no feelings of "love", affection it was lets screw.

I struggle with how any WS could feel wanted and desired in this situation. When 1 and 2 equate in my mind to nothing more than being a human masturbation tool?

If you and the AP specifically discussed you would never leave your families or marriages for the other and no discussion of long term objectives and you both know 1 and 2 are true during the affair. How does one feel wanted and desired to spend nothing more than 45-1 hour on occasion with a stranger.
What am I missing here? IMO seems the opposite would be generated, I'm cheap, I'm easy, not he/she wants and desires me as I'm just the one that said yes".

hikingout posted 3/29/2019 09:37 AM

I noticed "wanted/desired" pop up time and time again on here and this is something my WW (and myself) struggles with communicating.
How as a WS in an A does one feel wanted and desired when they know the following:
1) The AP could have been anyone, there was nothing special about the AP.
2) The AP was only in it for sex, there were no feelings of "love", affection it was lets screw.
I struggle with how any WS could feel wanted and desired in this situation. When 1 and 2 equate in my mind to nothing more than being a human masturbation tool?
If you and the AP specifically discussed you would never leave your families or marriages for the other and no discussion of long term objectives and you both know 1 and 2 are true during the affair. How does one feel wanted and desired to spend nothing more than 45-1 hour on occasion with a stranger.
What am I missing here? IMO seems the opposite would be generated, I'm cheap, I'm easy, not he/she wants and desires me as I'm just the one that said yes".

For me 1 & 2 were only clear to me in hindsight. A WS doesn't understand themselves when they enter the affair. There is very little introspection or self evaluation going on..

What it really boils down to for me is I was unhappy. It isn't my spouses job to make me happy, but I didn't sit down and think "how can I change things". I just escaped reality. It's like putting a bottle to your lips or a needle in you vein in many ways. Instead of trying to rearrange your life to try and do the hard work of changing it to meet your needs, you kind of say "fuck it, this is easier". So, you really abandon a lot of logic, common sense, etc to live in this little fantasy world where things are all roses and happiness. If you look too closely, well, that would ruin it, right?

After the A is over and you have sat in your shit long enough to understand "time to do some serious digging", you understand the whole thing was built on nothing at all. That you were very, very wrong in trying to remedy and cope with your situation the way that you did. And you see the AP with the new eyes that say "Gosh, it was YOU I was projecting all this on?" You realize that all you did was a major act of avoidance. And, it really, really was the worst decision you ever made.

I also like a recent post I saw where a lot of it is like a circus mirror...the affair is a lot like looking in the mirror and having it show you things you want to see rather than what's really there. And, most of these things, believe it or not are about YOU and who YOU are rather than the AP. It's all about reflecting an image back on yourself.

So, yeah, if we knew 1 & 2 an affair would never happen or work.

Darkness Falls posted 3/29/2019 10:06 AM

Brennan,

That wasn’t my situation, is my reason. There’s no way the AP could have been “anyone.” I’ll also never know for sure, but I do believe he did love and desire me for me, not just for a screw. He was a single, attractive guy—he could have had a dozen women at a time to “just screw.”

There was no difference at all between my ex coming back into my life and asking for another chance, leading to the affair and my XH (who is also my current H) coming back into my life and asking for another chance, leading to our remarriage—except that in the first situation, I was married and chose to cheat rather than divorce. My ex wasn’t looking to prey on a married woman—he would have vastly preferred that I wasn’t married, in fact. I’m not defending him behaving dishonorably—but I did give him the impression that I would leave my H for him. (And meant it, at the time—I just couldn’t go through with it in the end.)

But my H knew I was in a relationship too when HE asked (although he knew I wasn’t married). The difference is, I ended that relationship immediately after he asked to get back together. (Yes, seriously right away—it was a terrible, toxic relationship that was over for all intents and purposes anyway and we both knew it.) So if my then-XH was sincere, why wouldn’t I have thought my then-ex boyfriend was too?

Brennan87 posted 3/29/2019 13:38 PM

HikingOut,

As always thank you for your articulate, concise and heartfelt responses. I don’t think you nor darkness fall truly understand the impact you have on some of us.

With that said, I think your introspection is putting me on the verge of something falling into place. I’m not 100 percent there but if I understand what your saying...

The compartmentslizing was in full force and too look at the affair for what it was would have stopped it from happening. As such, what ever you were feeling to escape you were getting mirrored back to you.

So if I translate this to me own situation. The thrilling/exciting part for my WW wasn’t the AP but what he was mirroring back. Since she was partly recreating a past trauma every degrading thing he said and did was exciting and thrilling as that was what she wanted to see in that mirror. Someone who didn’t respect her, who though of her as the whore she was being. So for him to validate this (mirror) was thrilling and exciting. Do I have this right in terms of mirroring?
Ironically this kinda makes sense to a degree.

Darkness falls,
I echo my sentiments with you as I did hiking out. You genuinely put yourself out there to try and help us Bs and your own story and experiences are very helpful.

As sad as it seems, your experience makes more sense too me. As prior to my own world exploding I was a media believer. I thought all affairs were about love, which too a degree yours was (in my head) based on what you shared. So too a rational person 1 and 2 wouldn’t equate for you.

Thank you both!!!

hikingout posted 3/29/2019 13:49 PM

So if I translate this to me own situation. The thrilling/exciting part for my WW wasn’t the AP but what he was mirroring back. Since she was partly recreating a past trauma every degrading thing he said and did was exciting and thrilling as that was what she wanted to see in that mirror. Someone who didn’t respect her, who though of her as the whore she was being. So for him to validate this (mirror) was thrilling and exciting. Do I have this right in terms of mirroring?
Ironically this kinda makes sense to a degree

Possibly. It's hard to know what each WS sees in that mirror.


For me, it was I was younger, more vibrant, more carefree. As long as I could get him to reflect that back to me as I played out that role it kept the fantasy world going. If I were to relate to what you are saying, I could probably make that fit as well.


The reason I say that is because I was molested as a girl by an older kid. And, I wanted that attention from him to a certain degree, just not the sexual aspects of it. So, as I became a woman I led with my sexuality to seem "cool to guys". They liked I was open and enthusiastic, much like my predator did. I could equate some of that with the AP, yes. So, I don't think you are making a leap in your understanding. I never thought about it in those terms before, but I can see how they also fit.

Darkness Falls posted 3/29/2019 14:38 PM

Brennan,

With the benefit of hindsight and maturity, I came to learn the difference between “being in love” and “treating with love” (and respect). I was treating everyone very poorly because I was selfish and disrespectful.

Brennan87 posted 3/29/2019 18:26 PM

Hiking,

My heart aches for what was done to you. No one deserves that, NO ONE. You’ve overcome a lot. If they haven’t happened yet, know you’ll be blessed in someway.

Not too make this a mini therapy session for Brennan but I can’t converge the two lines of thinking regarding my WW. Unfortunately she can’t articulate it at this point either.

Through therapy she has come to realize she re-enacted previous traumas based on actions during the affair. This makes sense too me based on discussions. Such as her comments of:
I thought I could control it and it not go sexual.
It’s what I deserved, I didn’t deserve to be treated with respect and kindness based on my past.
I had a small bit of self respect left and after the first two times would come home and cry. I stopped crying then as it’s what I deserved.
It was fun, I felt alive and young ( as you pointed out) as her 14 year old self was in the driver seat based on past traumas and comfort.
I knew what he was, a liar and a cheat as I knew he’d been fired before due to sexual harassment and he only wanted a piece of ass.
All of this ring true in my mind of someone reliving a previous trauma.
However, I can’t connect that she knew all this and still felt “happy, wanted, desired” by him. He boosted her self esteem. How being called vulgar names (which again rings true of past trauma), being degraded in setting and during sex (again rings true of recreation of trauma) makes one, happy, wanted and desired.
Maybe I’m projecting as I too used sex (pre WW) as a coping mechanism due too my own abuse. However I never felt happy, wanted or desired at all. aaarrtgggh

Darkness,
Thank you for the distinction... you’ve come so far!! Kudos. I agree love is an action!!!

BraveSirRobin posted 3/29/2019 19:26 PM

The reason I say that is because I was molested as a girl by an older kid. And, I wanted that attention from him to a certain degree, just not the sexual aspects of it. So, as I became a woman I led with my sexuality to seem "cool to guys". They liked I was open and enthusiastic, much like my predator did.
This was me, too. I looked for validation through sex because that early attention made me feel special and important. I had no idea that that dynamic was at work, though.

Trying to apply logic to a WS's motivations is often an exercise in futility, but I'll try to explain how things started for me. I was insecure in my relationship with my BF and was drawn to the idea of an A where we made no promises and owed each other nothing. If, by definition, we weren't a couple, then he couldn't destroy me by leaving me. I didn't have to worry about whether I was his true love, or if I had all his attention, or if he really wanted someone else, or if I wasn't "enough." The irony was that because I was completely uninvested in OM, I became like catnip to him, this cool girl who was unattainable and didn't make demands. That made him pursue me much more aggressively, including romantically, because he wanted what he couldn't have. And because a major reason I got involved with OM was my insecurity in my primary relationship, I loved seeing myself through the funhouse mirror of his professed obsession for me. I basked in the ego kibbles. And then I started to feel sorry for him, because I saw my insecurities about BF abandoning me playing out in my abandoning OM. So when I ended it and came clean to BBF, I felt and acted like I owed more sympathy and support to OM, because I had broken his heart and stayed with BBF. Totally fucked up, I know.

Want2BHappyAgain posted 3/29/2019 22:15 PM

And then I started to feel sorry for him, because I saw my insecurities about BF abandoning me playing out in my abandoning OM. So when I ended it and came clean to BBF, I felt and acted like I owed more sympathy and support to OM, because I had broken his heart and stayed with BBF. Totally fucked up, I know.

This is very interesting BraveSirRobin. My H said something very similar to me about his feelings of being sorry for his adultery co-conspirator...because he was leaving her after leading her on that they were more than just fuck buddies. On DDay...when he confessed...he very much felt and acted sympathetic and supportive of her...especially after he sent her the NC message. When he received her reply the next day...his whole demeanor changed...and that fantasy land bubble POPPED right before my eyes. He saw that she had LIED to him and it pissed him off. It also embarrassed him that he didn’t see she was doing to him what he had been doing to her.

I don’t understand that logic though and I am wondering if you could expand on this a little more please. Maybe seeing it from a woman’s POV might help to clear things up for me!

Are you saying you felt sorry for your infidelity co-conspirator because you saw what YOU feared...as being what you were doing to him? If y’all had already agreed...like my H and his adultery co-conspirator did...to NSA sex...what was there to feel sorry about him for? ANY insight you...or others who have felt this way...can give...will be greatly appreciated!

LuvsMeLuvsMeNot posted 3/30/2019 14:16 PM

Since there have been so many threads lately pertaining to "A" sex vs."M" sex I would like to ask the WS if they would be willing to share "What was the most exciting thing sexually (like off the charts exciting) that your OW/OM did to you, for you or with you that your BS does not do to you, for you or with you?”

Also, if there was something you really enjoyed with your OW/OM "Have you ever asked your BS to do that specific thing or did you not ask for the fear of triggering them since they might think it was something that you had done with the AP?"

I asked my WH if there was ever 1 thing that his OW (was his ex/gf from now 34 years ago) did that he thought was VERY exciting since all he’s ever said (since I found out it was a 5+ year PA and not a "few months long" EA) was how the parking lot car sex was boring, vanilla and over fast since she was very self-conscious about how overweight she was and her large, saggy, stretchmark covered breasts.”

He said the most exciting thing to him “bc it made him feel like a teenager again” was when they got in our car (after going out to dinner one time) and the OW pulled her pants down and just laughed. Mind you, they were both in their mid 40’s during the A.

Thank you in advance for taking the time to read my question and share a reply if you’re able to.
.

[This message edited by LuvsMeLuvsMeNot at 2:54 PM, March 30th (Saturday)]

BraveSirRobin posted 3/30/2019 18:35 PM

Are you saying you felt sorry for your infidelity co-conspirator because you saw what YOU feared...as being what you were doing to him? If y’all had already agreed...like my H and his adultery co-conspirator did...to NSA sex...what was there to feel sorry about him for? ANY insight you...or others who have felt this way...can give...will be greatly appreciated!
It wasn't that I feared OM leaving me. I had a long history of being dumped and left, and that made me overly sympathetic to OM when he was the dumpee. And yes, it was agreed at the outset that this was a short term thing with no promises made, but I made very bad decisions about not getting out as soon as it became evident that things were getting more serious. (For context, BH and I were BF/GF at the time of the A and in an LDR at different universities. We had an understanding that I could see OM casually, but not get deeply involved, either romantically or sexually.)

Before BF, my past was a series of unfortunate relationships where I used sexual acts to try to gain approval, validation and commitment. The one guy I had really been in love with before BF had ghosted me at the end of our relationship, and that made me feel totally worthless and insignificant. I carried all of that into my relationship with BF, who was genuinely the best person I had ever dated but had his own set of insecurities that sometimes made him keep me at arm's length. So when BF went into that mode, I didn't do what a secure, healthy person would do, which is to ask him what was going on and stand up for my right to not be treated that way. I thought that would seem needy and make him more likely to break it off. So when OM appeared, my attitude was, "Well, I'm not going to be cherished in this relationship, but at least that's par for the course, and since I'm not expecting it, I won't be disappointed." It was such a broken place to be.

The unanticipated development was that OM caught feelings for me, or more accurately, he was attracted to what he projected on me. I think he had some kind of martyr complex. At the time that I started seeing him, he was in love with his best friend's girlfriend and doing the "bearing up under long suffering" routine. I thought that made him safe -- he was in love with someone else, I was in love with someone else, he was moving away in four months, this wasn't going anywhere permanent. But then he transferred that star-crossed longing to me, because I was also unattainable long term, with the added advantage of not causing him problems with his best friend. It didn't really have much to do with me as a person, I don't think; we shared some common interests, but in terms of the things that really matter about a person, we barely knew each other. But he decided he had fallen madly in love with me, and told me so frequently. It didn't help that he was a professional actor, so he could deliver the right soulful looks and body language and everything to go along with the words. And with my history of brokenness, what he was selling was what I had always been desperate to buy -- the idea that I was a person someone could not live without. And so I started reflecting that back to him, and convinced myself that I was in love, though never as much in love as I was with BF.

When we were nearing the end of the A, which had always been understood to be time bound by his upcoming move, OM turned up the romantic heat. He wanted me to break up with BF and be his girlfriend, officially instead of on the side. I started feeling really guilty, not towards BF as I should have, but towards OM. I was the one who had made the first move in starting the A, and now I was going to break his heart. I kept thinking of the ex who had ghosted me and what that had done to my self-esteem, and I thought I could "fix" BF by recommitting to him and "fix" OM by letting him down gently.

Even after D-Day, I refused to go NC with OM. I had no intention of restarting the A, but I had my head up my ass believing that we could stay "just friends." This was incredibly damaging to my BF, who did the pick-me dance instead of kicking me to the curb as I deserved. It was cruel to him, and frankly it didn't do OM any favors either, because it let him believe there was still some hope that we'd reunite, even though that wasn't my intention.

I also had the same experience as your WH, discovering that OM had lied to me, and being crushed by it. (Yes, the irony of a WS feeling "betrayed" by an AP is nauseating.) In my case, he lied about sex with a FWB at the beginning of the A. He insisted it never happened; she said it did and was far more credible. I allowed myself to be gaslighted for far longer than I should have because believing her was so painful. It turned the story of my A from "I was his 'one who got away'" to "I was just a target for manipulation." TBH, it sounds like your WH showed more sense than me in allowing the fantasy bubble to suddenly pop instead of slowly and painfully deflate.

BraveSirRobin posted 3/30/2019 18:51 PM

"What was the most exciting thing sexually (like off the charts exciting) that your OW/OM did to you, for you or with you that your BS does not do to you, for you or with you?”
Nothing. I mean, I don't know if that's at all useful to you, but it's the truth. BH is amazing in the sack.

He said the most exciting thing to him “bc it made him feel like a teenager again” was when they got in our car (after going out to dinner one time) and the OW pulled her pants down and just laughed. Mind you, they were both in their mid 40’s during the A.
This rings true to me, honestly. It's not about the AP being a sex god/goddess. It's about the persona the WS inhabits, someone with no responsibilities, no self-control, and frankly no maturity. It's intoxicating, the idea that "this person is so wild about me that they behave in what they know to be an inappropriate way because they just can't help themselves." The longer I do the work here, the clearer it becomes to me that I was having an A with myself, and the OM was just the prop guy who was feeding me the right lines.

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 6:59 PM, March 30th (Saturday)]

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