SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

@Bigger
I agree with this. I don't think "every situation is unique" means patterns become useless. The patterns are exactly why a place like this has value. The important part, to me, is recognizing the patterns without assuming they automatically dictate the outcome in every individual case.

That is really what I was trying to get at with the original post. Read the advice critically, notice what experienced people keep repeating, ask why they are repeating it, and then decide how it fits your own circumstances. I especially like your point about looking at a poster's history, I have read more old posts on here than I would like to admit. Someone who has one answer for every situation is probably telling you as much about themselves as they are about your situation.

And since I'm replying to you specifically, I should also say that I appreciated some of the advice you gave me when I first arrived here. Your comment about my "police voice" being intimidating stuck with me. I didn't necessarily love hearing it at the time, but I took it seriously. I've been consciously paying attention to that part of myself and making sure I don't fall into that commanding tone when I'm trying to communicate. It has actually been really helpful, both at home and at work.

That's probably a good example of what I mean by taking the advice. I didn't have to agree with every conclusion anyone gave me to recognize when someone had pointed out something I genuinely needed to look at.

If someone like me argues that R requires a massive transaction in the self-respect department...

Explain this "massive transaction." How does reconciling with a WS sacrifice one's self-respect?

Explain this "massive transaction." How does reconciling with a WS sacrifice one's self-respect?

I don't think the viewpoint that staying with a WS--a WW especially--is a hit to one's self-respect is an unusual viewpoint at all though. Even if one cannot quite reason why that is, I think most men can FEEL why this is so. In fact, in many cultures it is a TABOO to stay with a WW.

After infidelity the damage has already been done. It's supposed to be you and your partner against the big bad world, but by your partner cheating, that's ruined. See, she has opened you up to ridicule and embarrassment. Not to mention, the possibility of raising another man's children. Or in some cases even your family being put in physical danger.

I think SI is extremely unusual in that it is so highly 'Blue-Pill'. At least it sure seems that way at times. You got a bunch of extremely relationship-oriented men talking about empathy for WWs and 'R is possible if you want it' and it all is just a bit much for me sometimes.I'd even go so far to say that this very question that I quoted --that it would even be a question--illustrates that. Not to mention so so many BHs who come here occasionally--they are stuck with their WW in a marriage that sounds painful. I see it as a great thing in general that posters like DRSOOLERS go against the grain on here.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 4:34 PM, Tuesday, August 25th]

** Member to Member **

If someone like me argues that R requires a massive transaction in the self-respect department...

R may not be the best choice for a person who thinks their self-respect has to take a hit in order to R.

IMO, it's being betrayed that hits one's self respect, and nothing erases being betrayed.

If justice is one of one's highest values, D is probably the best choice. If mercy is more important than justice, R may work.

Problems are multiplied for people who want 'A' but force themselves to choose 'B'.

*****

Not always, but infidelity can be emotional abuse. Long-term affairs and serial cheating can be especially abusive.

As for the process of reconciliation, I would say that's not always emotional abuse either, but it certainly can be. False R is a good example

I have always agreed with the above.

I have no trouble seeing False R as abuse, but False R is not R.

People stay with abusers all the time.

Yes. So many victims of abuse so often are so beaten down (physically or emotionally) that they can't bring themselves to leave. That's not the case for most BSes on SI.

And although a reader may be outraged that I don't think abuse is a good metaphor for infidelity, note that 'not abuse' in no way implies that infidelity is a walk in a beautiful garden on a nice day.

*****

@Soolers, I apologize for the sentence that brought your experience watching your parents. I thought I had deleted the reference.

My difficulty with your posts are pretty much

1) describing R in ways that are not close to the real experiences described by people who have actually done R or False R;

2) your mistaken claim that you follow logic without emotion;

3) the possible influence you have on new members.

Infidelity ABSOLUTELY is abuse. The lying and gaslighting. The making fun of your BS with the AP. The introducing them to all sorts of danger. I could go on and on. Every affair is different and some have very different elements of the above compared to others, but in the main it is indeed abuse.

You basically opened up your underbelly to someone else and then they used that against you.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 4:23 PM, Tuesday, August 25th]

I think SI is extremely unusual in that it is so highly 'Blue-Pill'. At least it sure seems that way at times. You got a bunch of extremely relationship-oriented men talking about empathy for WWs and it all is just a bit much for me sometimes.I'd even go so far to say that this very question that I quoted --that it would even be a question--illustrates that. Not to mention so so many BHs who come here occasionally--they are stuck with their WW in a marriage that sounds painful. I see it as a great thing in general that posters like DRSOOLERS go against the grain on here.

good gawd. I almost threw up in my mouth reading this.

Imagine reducing complex human trauma to Matrix buzzwords and genuinely believing it makes you look enlightened rather than emotionally illiterate.

​Calling men "Blue-Pill" because they have the courage to face real life pain, navigate excruciating choices, and deal with profound vulnerability (give me that MAN any day) only proves one thing, you are terrified of anything that can’t be solved with a generic internet script. Real strength requires sitting in the fire, weighing options, and facing messy human reality. You, on the other hand, retreat into copy-pasted forum lingo because actual emotional complexity demands far more grit than you possess.

​It takes zero bravery to sit on the sidelines, judge men dealing with devastating betrayal, and mistake cheap cynicism for wisdom. What you view as "going against the grain" isn't courageous, it’s just the loud, hollow noise of someone who lacks the depth to handle relationships in the real world. If your entire grasp of manhood, marriage, and resilience fits inside a red-pill echo chamber, you aren't waking up from anything. You’re just hiding in a very small, very fragile, and extremely lonely corner of the internet.

Well, I don't agree with this or your characterisation of me--you don't even know me, but, it is the internet, so .......

I just disagree with a lot of the advice on here and how DRSOOLERs is made out to be the crazy one. I think he brings up some good points. I also think there is a danger in romanticising the struggles of attempting R--which I think is done an awful lot on SI. We ALL are facing real-life pain and having to make some extremely difficult choices.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 5:22 PM, Tuesday, August 25th]

As someone that has dealt professionally with domestic abuse cases and done hours of volunteer work in a domestic abuse center I do NOT agree with the comparison of infidelity to domestic abuse.

When a person abuses someone else in a relationship it’s very direct. The victim is targeted. As in a punch to the face. A shove down the stairs. Being shoved down a toilet. The very ACT is intended in all aspects and ways to cause direct pain, fear, degradation, control and terror from the abuser to the abused. It’s constant, ongoing and omnipresent.

It’s extremely rare (albeit only based on my experience on this site and in life) that a husband or wife tells their spouse that they are going to go out, find a person and screw the living daylights out of them, and then do that with no regard to who the OP is. The affair partner is totally irrelevant because the goal is to cause pain – to abuse – the betrayed spouse. At best the affair partner can be compared to a favorite bat to bash the spouse with.

I can agree that infidelity is abusive. But it’s a totally different level or type or sort of abuse.

They cheat despite us, not because of us.

I guess one can argue that if you are run over by a car it doesn’t matter too much if it’s accidental or intentional. Guess you are just as broken and hurt.

@Sisoon

Apology accepted. I just don't want our interactions to ever slide into the personal realm.

R may not be the best choice for a person who thinks their self-respect has to take a hit in order to R.

Well, this is simply a fundamental point of difference. Obviously, some people will consider it a hit to their self-respect and others will not. Consider a scenario where you had a former boss who repeatedly mistreated you. He took credit for your best work, made you toil through long hours while he snuck off to the golf course, and habitually passed you over for promotions in favour of his personal friends. Suppose everyone in the company knew precisely how he treated you like his whipping boy. Then one day, you woke up to reality. You saw how he was treating you and how he had manipulated you. Even if he apologised upon confrontation and vowed to make amends, would you stay at the company? Perhaps you would if the package he offered as amends was great enough. I can see that. But let us take it one step further. Would you then go and publicly buy that man a pint? Would you be comfortable having the whole community see you strolling down the high street sharing a laugh with him? Maybe some would. Maybe some would view it such that he was the one who should feel embarrassed, as he was the one who did wrong. But I, and I am sure many others, would not view it that way. I simply would not be able to look at myself in the mirror.

This analogy works perfectly for me because I have always been understanding of R when it comes to practicalities, which in this scenario equates to the compensation package offered to make amends. Sometimes you just cannot turn it down. Due to financial stresses, child-rearing beliefs, or legal concerns, people can find that R offers a practical package, and I can understand making the best of a situation under those circumstances.

1) describing R in ways that are not close to the real experiences described by people who have actually done R or False R;

I can quote an overwhelming number of people whose experiences of R directly align with how I describe it. In fact, along with my own lived experience, those accounts are precisely what shaped my perspective; I certainly didn't pluck my opinions out of thin air. You only need to look at the community base of this site's namesake on that other popular platform Gemmy mentioned recently. It is practically a mausoleum of failed R attempts, filled with people pleading with others not to repeat their mistakes.

the possible influence you have on new members

Understood. I cannot stress strongly enough how much I value personal agency, taking what serves you, and accepting that there is no one-size-fits-all solution. My overarching concern is, and always will be, that newcomers might be led straight back into further harm by well-meaning members who happened to experience statistically rare positive outcomes. That view stems directly from my conviction that betrayal is a form of abuse, and that victims of such trauma remain particularly vulnerable to further harm, so I offer this counter-perspective simply as a safeguard. I am not going to force anyone to do anything; I am just going to lay out the logical arguments as I see them. As for my own well-being, I am really not in the state of distress you keep implying; my life is genuinely wonderful, though you certainly don't need to be burdened with the details.

@foreverlabeled

What you view as "going against the grain" isn't courageous, it’s just the loud, hollow noise of someone who lacks the depth to handle relationships in the real world.

I do hope that wasn't aimed at me. Don't mean to impose myself in this exchange but I'm the person who he quoted as "going against the grain" - and that assessment would be very off base and I feel counter to our previous interactions. Perhaps it wasn't and was aimed more generically at the red-pill movement. If so I have no qualms with that.

For me, I am usually just confused at some of your arguments scooler.

I am leaving WBFA out of this, red pill is a toxic standpoint and there is no reasoning with someone who subscribes to that sort of belief system when it comes to men and women. Also calling anyone blue pill from that group is considered as dismissive insult, and that insult was directed at the very people WBFA seems to think he is helping - Betrayed males.

Here are the facts as I know them:

1. When most bs who up here, their intent is to reconcile. It may not be their final decision, but it’s the default. Maybe they pick our site for the reason you do—there are deeper more nuanced discussions here. We do not dismiss thhem as stupid to try.

2. The overall type of bs who seem to congregate here are deep thinkers. They may be disoriented but it’s very rare they don’t find their agency over their course of using this site. I have seen positive improvements from everyone who stays to learn- bs and ws alike.

3. When their ws is doing things not conducive to R, we all talk to them about detachment, boundaries, considering separation. Or we try and help the we see things more clearly so they can improve. What most of us don’t do is dictate their marital outcome.

4. I have been here almost ten years, and many of the vets have been here longer than me. And after watching results I see some subset will successfully reconcile, some will stay married for reasons you cite-financial, kids, etc, and some will divorce. If I had to guess a number I would say it’s probably split pretty evenly amongst our members. I have yet to see a member announce a divorce without the same amount of well wishes as those who announce a reconciliation. The reconciliation forum has hundreds of posts in the successful reconciliation stories. I think we celebrate the outcome no matter what it is because we hear the bs saying they have gained agency. But we do see a greater rate of reconciliations here than in some of the sites I have lurked on, but again I think we tend to draw a specific subset of betrayeds.

5. There is a very high success rate of bs healing, regardless of marital outcome of those who come here.

6. Reddit likely has a lotmore members and I agree because of that you may see a lot more who have failed reconciliations. Probably that aligns with the real numbers in the real world. This site is an attractive choice for reconcilers because we are not a bunch of people who think a bs is stupidness to try. It’s a safe ground for those who wish to take that path because we believe there are lots of valid outcomes in all the buckets. It’s nonjudgmental.

It’s my feeling and I think this is pretty much a sitewide thing —that as long as the bs finds the path to ensuring their own happiness it’s not for us to judge why they went in that direction.

Personally I think my husband is one of the most self respecting people I know. He went for what he really wanted, and was able to obtain that in his own terms. He was masculine enough that he didn’t take heart to anyone saying he was weak for wanting to keep his marriage and family together.

I see that as the goal of many of the members here and I have deep respect for them as well. There are some that I think won’t be successful in it because their ws isn’t making any progress to be a good repairer. But I trust they will eventually see that for themselves after they have exhausted their own due process. I don’t see it as a waste of time because even if they divorced immediately, the disorientation is not cured by getting to that outcome sooner.

Many report walking with their heads high that they did their best, they know it in their heart. And I think that’s important for closure.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:38 PM, Tuesday, August 25th]

Well, it was a mistake on my part to use the term 'Blue Pill'. I actually do not subscribe to a lot of the red-pill stuff per se but I do think many men are poisoned by the belief that 'girls are sugar and spice and everything nice'--in particular their WWs.

I think whether intentional or not, I often find myself reading the advice on here thinking something is missing. I for one was remorselessly left by someone who married her AP soon after. So yeah, she trusted her AP! Anyway I bristle with anger whenever I read someone experienced say that 'WWs didn't trust AP' on here. I also believe the WS is made out to be confused or foggy and I'm thinking nah--she cheated because she WANTED to cheat, flat out simple as that. And at the end of the day it is because on some level she did not respect her partner. The advice on here that I say that seems to get the strongest reaction warns BHs of this. But I think they need to hear it cruel as it sounds.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 7:18 PM, Tuesday, August 25th]

I agree someone,including me cheats because they want to.

I had to learn why I wanted to, and do something about that.

I don’t really mind when the advice is to divorce. I do detest it when the bs is saying they want to try to reconcile and basically get called a chump. That’s the only big point of contention I have other than sometimes the way you speak about women does come off as misogynistic. When someone says red pill/blue pill stuff then for me that’s a confirmation.

That doesn’t mean you don’t have a good reason for being weary of women after what you have gone through. That I can have empathy for anyone in that situation.

I know it bothers you that I am one who says I didn’t really think about trust with the ap, but that’s not to say all ws feel the way I do about that. My affair was short lived, and rooted completely in fantasy, including projecting something in to him that wasn’t there. A lot of things actually. I mean I doubted he was a serial murderer or that he was going to hurt me because he was a colleague for many years—-but I just watch a true crime video where the woman was murdered by a coworker who she worked with a long time and she trusted him to let him in her house and he killed her for not having sex with him and then dismembered her.

So instead of thinking I trusted him I was just blindly stupid and I think that was probably worse.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:27 PM, Tuesday, August 25th]

I also think there is a danger in romanticising the struggles of attempting R--which I think is done an awful lot on SI

Reconciliation isn't romanticized here. Everyone knows it is agonizing, exhausting, and frequently fails. But claiming that men who choose to stand in that fire have lost their self-respect isn't "going against the grain", it’s just fragile ego hiding behind forum posturing.

​You don't even know me, but, it is the internet, so...

I actually do not subscribe to a lot of the red-pill stuff per se

​The irony of posting on an anonymous forum is that people inevitably expose their core values far more than they ever would face to face. Your own words spell out your mindset with absolute clarity. Your entire framework hinges on a dread of ridicule, embarrassment, and adherence to "cultural taboos." That isn't self-respect, that is an obsession with external validation. You are letting a self-imposed terror of public humiliation dictate how a grown man should navigate his life, his pain, and his family.

​I don't think the viewpoint that staying with a WS--a WW especially--is a hit to one's self-respect is an unusual viewpoint at all though. Even if one cannot quite reason why that is, I think most men can FEEL why this is so. In fact, in many cultures it is a TABOO to stay with a WW.

Admitting you "cannot quite reason why" you hold a belief is the ultimate self-own. You are literally outsourcing your definition of self-respect to archaic peer pressure and calling it strength. Relying on centuries-old shame culture to dictate how a grown adult handles their own life isn't wisdom, it's pure social anxiety. TRUE self-respect comes from internal conviction and making autonomous, deliberate choices, not from letting ancient taboos and fear of what other men think run your life. If your entire sense of self-worth hinges on pleasing an invisible gallery of traditionalists, you aren't being guided by self-respect, you're just trapped by fragile conformity.

​Notice, too, how your hyper-focus on male pride completely erases betrayed wives from the conversation, as if women don't experience the exact same devastating heartbreak, or as if their pain somehow counts less. Rather than framing infidelity as a deep human tragedy, you reduce a universal trauma down to a status-obsessed dick-measuring contest of "red pill/blue pill" (if that wasn't your intention) then strong man/weak man. It proves you don't actually care about the devastation of betrayal, you only care about posturing for an online echo chamber. Judging men who possess the bandwidth for vulnerability, strength, and genuine emotional courage from a place of unexamined fear isn't wisdom. It’s just pathetic. Not only the most pathetic thing I can think of, but also far more dangerous to this site than the "romanticized reconciliation" you pretend to be warning us about.

​While people attempting R are actually doing the painful work of trying to heal, your toxic cynicism offers nothing but poison to men at their lowest point. That isn't support.

[This message edited by foreverlabeled at 7:32 PM, Tuesday, August 25th]

Well @hikingout, I don't mind anyone saying such as yourself that *they* did not trust their AP. I do get my cackles up when someone says that 'the WP doesn't trust their AP'.

I am realising that there is a difference between wanting to warn a BH that if he stays he is likely in for an unhappy life, versus exhorting him to drive the Karma Bus. I'll make a point of being mindful of that moving forward.

@foreverlabelled, you're entitled to your opinion that's all I'm gonna say

I have to admit, the way this thread has evolved is almost a perfect demonstration of the point I was trying to make in the original post.

It started as a pretty simple idea: betrayal follows recognizable patterns, experienced people can help us see those patterns, and sometimes the advice we least want to hear is exactly what we need to consider. But patterns are not destiny, and ultimately each betrayed person still has to decide what those patterns mean in the context of their own life.

Since then, this thread has gone from discussing personal agency to reconciliation statistics, then to whether reconciliation is inherently abusive, then domestic abuse, self-respect, masculinity, red-pill/blue-pill ideology, and now people's motivations and character.

And strangely enough, I think that proves the original point better than I ever could have.

Everyone here is looking at betrayal through the lens of their own experiences, values, successes, failures, fears, and lessons learned. That doesn't make their advice worthless. Quite the opposite. There is an enormous amount of wisdom in those different perspectives.

But it does mean we should understand where advice is coming from before treating it as universal truth.

Listen carefully. Notice the patterns. Ask why experienced people keep repeating certain warnings. Be willing to hear things that make you uncomfortable. But also recognize when someone else's experience has quietly become their worldview.

Take the advice.

Make your own decision.

Apparently we needed three pages to demonstrate it. (I am embarrased to say I just found the emoji"s)

BBFA & DRSOOLERS, neither of you have answered my question: "How does reconciling with a WS sacrifice one's self-respect?"

Self-respect is about the self, one's own character, dignity and value. Being betrayed wasn't a reflection on my character, dignity or value. Offering my ex-wife the opportunity to reconcile didn't diminish my character, dignity or value.

To me, it showed extraordinary character. It's grit, the ability to deal with adversity without succumbing to it.

It never felt undignified, although being thoroughly unhinged led me to some undignified behaviors. So what? There might be a few unicorns out there who can remain poised and dignified in the midst of the worst shitstorm of their lives. I wasn't one of them. Most BS do some undignified shit. Who the fuck cares? Most of us are wholly unprepared and lack the tools to weather it with clarity and wisdom.

And as for self-worth, again that's about how we value ourselves, independent of what other people think about us.

Did attempting to R with my WW open me up to humiliation and ridicule? May it did. But I don't typically give a rats ass what other people think of me. I don't base my character, dignity or worth on external validation or condemnation.

(There are exceptions, of course. I do value the opinions of those I love and respect. I do value a boss's evaluation of my job performance.)

I completely and totally understand why any BS would head straight to divorce. I completely and totally understand why any BS would be willing to give R an honest attempt.

I don't judge.

So, again! Explain to me how offering the gift of R impacts one's self-respect?

***

On a side note, I think the whole "blue pill" vs "Red pill" bullshit is a piss poor analogy of a halfway descent premise from an entertaining, but absurd, SciFi movie. The whole "Red pill" movement and manosphere nonsense is about insecurity.

Gemmy, as you've noticed, sometimes threads take on a life of their own.

This one was perfect, exactly what I was talking about in action. There is wisdom and advice in almost every post depending on how you look at it.

Make your own decision.

I think all of us get there — we all find our own path — and we can’t ever be talked out of what we really want.

We all show up with an idea of a direction that we want, and find the life experiences being shared that help us the most.

And for me, like Gemmy noted, the people who disagreed with me the most were just as helpful as the members who had good ideas about what I wanted.

I spent a long post, early on, defending my choice in the moment.

A wiser member than me suggested that if I was comfortable with my choice, there would be no need to defend it.

He was right.

It made me challenge my own thought process and I had to take more time to figure out what I wanted and needed to do.

All of the challenges along the way helped me as much or more than the encouragement.