SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

WB1340

I will not accept an explanation based on blind trust

Yep, full agreement here. I will never, accept anything or any explanation based on "blind trust". It was a mistake I made that if I hadn’t, my wife and I might have been able to avoid the affair all together. That understanding does not in any way lay the blame at my feet. Only an awareness that if I’d listen to my instincts I might have preempted the affair for there were warnings signs that I set aside because I chose blind faith in my wife over my concerns.

Where you and I might differ is that of the things that I found that I had to accept is that I will never fully understand some of my wife’s explanations as to the whys and to let it go. To accept that she may never really know the whys or even that she may believe she has to hold onto the lies. I still struggle with all of this crappy stuff at times so clearly, I’m not fully there, but I believe it is the right path "for me" to take. But I am here and talking because I know I do not see everything perfectly clear, so feel free to gently challenge me.

Asterisk

Hey Asterisk,

However, as to the last sentence, I hear this often said here and I struggle with the notion that "I had nothing… to do with her choices". I agree that the choice to cheat falls squarely on my wife. But to take myself completely out of the equation seems like the sum-total of the events leading up to the affair would calculate incorrectly leading to a wrong conclusion as to how to correct the error.

Two things in there.

One, nothing you can do can FORCE someone to choose to do WRONG.

You can't make someone choose to cheat anymore than you can make them into an alcoholic, or a substance abuser or a gambler.

All M, all relationships have problems, not all people in these M choose wrong and choose to cheat.

That's the -- I had nothing to do with my wife's decision to cheat.

She had to figure out why she chose to go against her own character, she had to figure out why she betrayed her own best interest.

Second thing in there, I agree, I am part of the equation for rebuilding the M AFTER her ownership of her horrible choices.

No M is perfect. If someone makes the perfect M claim, they're lying. We all have enough life experience to understand all relationships are constant work, constant attention and constant care and connection. Two individuals with their unique perspectives, it is not easy trying to stay on top of every aspect of life, much less our relationships.

So, of course, I needed to work on me going forward. Grace and empathy are a massive part of our rebuild.

Again, it wasn't that your wife didn't value you. She didn't value herself.

You noted the cheating issues across her family, that sure sounds like a family that didn't offer a healthy version of love for any of them.

People can't love others until they have made peace with themselves, until their own self-worth is strong enough, they aren't safe partners.

My wife claims she always loved me. Her AP, a family friend who was a serial cheater, he actually asked her how she felt about me and was glad to hear that she loved me. He didn't want a serious relationship, he wanted a fun side piece who was no threat to his own M. My wife still aimed for some kind of forbidden love and it was never that, and she found out when he finally dumped her in a very harsh manner.

My wife may have loved me in some way, but it wasn't a good one, it wasn't a healthy way.

I sure wish my wife had figured that stuff out before we got married.

My wife is human, who had a tough childhood and had poor boundaries and coping skills -- she was never an evil person. I absolutely believe there are good people who fail and then learn. Of course, there are also people who are bad and/or never learn, but that's a different thread.

Now she figured out how to be a better person and a better partner. When I decided to stay, I also have become a better person and better partner.

Part of my peace is my wife owning all of her choices. Heck, that's how this website was started, by an R couple where the WS took responsibility for her choices.

If my wife had continued to blame the M, then she wouldn't be a safe partner at all.

Because if our M wonders into troubles again, what is to stop someone who blames the M from making the same bad choices?

Agency and ownership of choosing to cheat is just a first step. Then all the work on the M begins where both partners need to be all in to heal the relationship.

Early in the reconciling process, I struggled with knowing too much. Overtime I began to understand that I really only knew the surface of the whys. In reality I knew way too little about my wife and her struggles pre and post her affair. Once I allowed myself to set aside the humiliation and pain and to listen, truly listen, is when reconciliation had a chance to succeed. But even now, 52 years post wedding day, I learn more and am often surprised by new things I learn about my wife and her thinking

I think that is where I'm at right now. I'm still reacting to things that were brought on from the affair. But when I do actually take the time to listen, truly listen. I somewhat understand how and why things are the way they are. But like you said, there are some things it will take time to learn about. Time will be the ultimate healer is what it seems like.

I guess we're similar in a lot of ways. Because I have been browsing this site here and there for months, but never actually posting. I did start journaling to help balance my thoughts and while that does release a lot of negative feelings, while also allowing to calm down and truly understand my feelings. I felt starting to post on here, where there are plenty of people who have gone through what we have can help with actual feedback. There's only so much feedback you can give yourself. Sometimes hearing what other people are experiencing helps. At least for me, any time I read comments here. It makes me feel better that I'm not going insane with how I'm feeling.

Oldwounds

O

ne, nothing you can do can FORCE someone to choose to do WRONG.
You can't make someone choose to cheat anymore than you can make them into an alcoholic, or a substance abuser or a gambler.

I agreed, I don’t believe I said anything that counters this position.

Second thing in there, I agree, I am part of the equation for rebuilding the M AFTER her ownership of her horrible choices.

Again, I agree. Where my subtle difference in wording is that I need to look at my role in our relationship that led up to the affair. In my way of thinking this does not, in anyway, suggest that I am responsible for my wife’s decision. The only thing it says is that things do not happen in a vacuum.

Again, it wasn't that your wife didn't value you. She didn't value herself.

Now on this I agree and disagree. It is true that my wife didn't value herself enough, though there could be an argument made, that she placed her value above all others, me included. Anyway, that thought may be for another conversation. I would like to restate, that I didn’t say she "didn’t" value me. That would be an overstatement that I might have felt or said when I 1st found out about the affair. But I didn’t mean to imply that in this conversation. I was saying that my wife had to devalue me in order to arrive at the conclusion that risking losing me was worth having sex with someone she says she didn’t even love. How can I see that in any other kind of light? Now, that does not mean that I see myself as valueless only that I recognize that my wife saw me as less valuable, sacrificial, than she once did.

Part of my peace is my wife owning all of her choices.

And I am at peace knowing that I, as my wife’s life-partner, played a role in her choice.

Agency and ownership of choosing to cheat is just a first step. Then all the work on the M begins where both partners need to be all in to heal the relationship.

Best line in this entire, very important and valued conversation.
Thank you Oldwounds for your insights.

Asterisk

Vikrant1993

I felt starting to post on here, where there are plenty of people who have gone through what we have can help with actual feedback. There's only so much feedback you can give yourself. Sometimes hearing what other people are experiencing helps. At least for me, any time I read comments here. It makes me feel better that I'm not going insane with how I'm feeling.

You have nailed the purpose of this site elegantly. Dealing with infidelity can make a betrayed spouse feel like they are going insane. All feed back is important to evaluate for infidelity can blind a person’s ability to see clearly things as they are verses how we "feel" they are. Plus, as you said, the lonely-ness of it all. A betrayed partner often is left alone within a crowd, wearing a smile while withering, hiding in plain sight. It is a terrible place to find oneself because of one’s spouse’s decision to cheat. It is good that you are here and are talking - we are listening.

Asterisk

Going through exactly the same right now thank you for sharing and all the helpful replies. Really know how it feels xx

A tale as old as Time. We have poems, songs, stories and even the bible. Full of betrayal. You never fully understand where the people who created these came up with the idea until someone very close to you betrays you. I lost my dad last weekend. He was my last direct relative. My mom died during the time I found out about the affair. My brother two years ago. For me these were people I could implicitly trust. They always had my back. But now I will never have that. My wife didn’t even attempt to put herself in that camp. She said I had our children. But your kids are people you protect. Your first family in my case protected me. So betrayal is something I will always be on the lookout for. A constant that came from infidelity. A shattering of naive blind trust. A shadow put upon a life that once believed what people said. That thought there was integrity in everyone. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put away childish things" I’m not a religious man but that quote resonates through me. Blind trust is our childhood. Betrayal is what adulthood has in store for us. My parents and sibling protected me from betrayal. I now protect myself from it. And like a cold your going to have it. And every time you get that cold you get a little more defence against it. You become more resilient. The world is going to disappoint us. Our spouses do not define us. Their mistakes are not our mistakes. We are born, we suffer, we die.

Oh, jailedmind, I'm very sorry for your loss.

Bluefairy,

Going through exactly the same right now

I am sorry to read that you are currently going through this yourself. It is an unpleasant place to be forced to exist. If it helps, there is a way through and out of this stage. Some find it in divorce, others, like me, found it through reconciliation. Either direction is justifiable, painful and daunting but there can be an end to the suffering.

Like you, I find great value and assistance from the voices here, (both betrayeds and waywards) who have shared their stories, thoughts, pain, success, losses, and advice.

Asterisk

Jailedmind,

I am so very sorry to read of your loss. I understand a portion of it. I am the last living soul on both my mother and father’s side of the family. No parents, no siblings (4 deceased), no grandparents, no uncles, aunts or cousins. All are gone. Strange place to find oneself.

Though I see things much differently than you have expressed, I do appreciate you sharing your perspectives for there are many ways to chose to walk this planet and yours is as valid as anyone’s. As I see it, the bottom line, (as best we can) is safety, fulfillment and happiness.

Asterisk

Thanks. Been a triggering last couple of weeks. My dad took maid. Died in the family home in the same room my mom did. The week my mom died was the same time I found out about the affair. I watched my mother die and was dealing with that at the same time. My wife came and lived with my dad for 3 months before he died. I sometimes wonder if she’s doing penance for all of it. I watched both my mom and brother die of cancer. A truly horrible disease. A truly horrible way to die. My dad’s decision for maid was twofold. He didn’t want to die like they did and he didn’t want to put me through that again. In my eyes. A true hero. But as all of it unfolded. I was being triggered by the similarities of events. Trying to make sense of all the nonsense. Funny my wife is all about family lately. Perhaps more penance or she simply wants to live a more wholesome life. I have adopted this what are your intentions, what are your motives and what is your expected outcome kind of an attitude. I thanked her for her care of him. Perhaps she learned a little about me. Maybe a little about herself. My dad was all about family and loyalty. He was married to my mom for over 40 years. Divorce was never an option in my family.

Jailedmind:

He didn’t want to die like they did and he didn’t want to put me through that again. In my eyes. A true hero.

I’m with you on this. I see your father’s act as one of deep love for his child which is one of the greatest act of heroism a parent can make. I hope that I’d make the same decision if I found myself in the situation your father did. I to, would not want to put my wife or children through the emotional and economical damage.

Again Jailedmind, I am sorry for the enormous number of combined tragedies that many were laid upon you so close together. It is a testament to your personal strength that you did not completely succumb under the weight.

Funny my wife is all about family lately. Perhaps more penance or she simply wants to live a more wholesome life. I have adopted this what are your intentions, what are your motives and what is your expected outcome kind of an attitude

I do not believe anyone can fully understand how much of a betrayed spouse’s world view changes on D-day and the years following either reconciliation or divorce. Old ways of trust are often eternally destroyed. Nearly (or all) held beliefs now in flex or outright rejected. Kind motives or words once received freely are often now met with full or partial suspicion. Infidelity changes a person, of changing I doubt they can control. What I believe they do have a say in is how and where those changes are going to be. You earlier said:

We are born, we suffer, we die.

I’ve reread this several times not knowing how to interpret or respond. But it has heavily sat with me for a couple of days. It sounds to me like you are saying that we, as individuals, have no say in it. And in two of the three (born, suffer, die.) I would have to agree, we really don’t. We are born, no one asked me for that event to occur. We die, and I, if I am well, wouldn’t choose that either but it will happen anyway. But suffering? I’m puzzling over this idea. Is it true that I don’t have a choice but suffer? Pain, sure of that all of us cross paths with, for it is unavoidable. But does that have to equate suffering? Is it a forgone conclusion? Or do I have the power to move away from suffering and live joyously? Anyway, just something you got me thinking about. Thank you for that, Jailedmind.

Asterisk

We are born, we suffer, we die.

Not him

Here’s a question for you, did you learn anything from the affair? Did you learn any truths that you didn’t know before the affair, truths about human nature and how the world actually works versus how you thought it worked?

I am betting you did. I certainly did.

Of what value is that truth?

Houseofplane

Here’s a question for you, did you learn anything from the affair? Did you learn any truths that you didn’t know before the affair…?

I learned it is not the demon in the dark but the angle in the light that can and will hurt you the most. I learned that I was expendable for someone she says she didn’t even love. I learned that I was not nearly as insightful as I thought I was. I learned that good people could do really bad things. I learned that I can never know the mind, motives, or secrets of another person. I learned that people, especially those who carry a quiet smile, may be deeply hurt. I learned that love wasn’t enough. I learned I was stronger than I thought. I learned that pain is tenacious and a powerful teacher. Most importantly, I learned humility from the thing and person I was most proud of, giving me empathy, rather than sympathy, for those who are hurting.

As for "any truths about human nature…"

I’ve come to understand that human beings are amazing creatures capable of deep love and affection, caring and giving but also dangerous.

"and how the world actually works…"

The world is both wonderful and dreadful and one must choose which aspect one will focus on without ignoring the other.

Thank you for your questions Houseofplane, now I ask, are you willing to share your answers to your questions?

Asterisk

[This message edited by Asterisk at 4:39 AM, Thursday, October 16th]

Thank you for your questions Houseofplane, now I ask, are you willing to share your answers to your questions

Oh man, too many to even count. The affair was the dark gift. Some big ones…

I know what another BS is going through in a way that someone else who hasn't been through it has no clue just how shattering it is.

I’m much more tuned to the fact that most people are leading deep, secret lives behind their façade. Lives of quiet desperation. I’m better at watching for signs.

I’ve learned that people can pretty much rationalize anything. People aren’t rational, they’re rationalizing. And of course I’m a person so that includes me. I’m aware of it now.

I’ve learned that the pain I felt from the affair, and the motivation for people having affairs really come from the same place. Building up the self, or protecting the self.

I’ve become much more attuned to whether something is communication or it is manipulation. I saw how much of it happened from my wife during the affair, and I am way more perceptive of it now. I’m also much more aware of when I am doing it. It’s a lot more than most people would think. And any manipulation is really kind of a subtle lie.

I notice much more about how people are always trying to tell a story with their life, to write some kind of narrative. You see it when people say things like "I learned that all of my life was a lie".I ponder a lot more about what the hell that even means. Why do we do that? It appears to go back to trying to define the self.

Edit:

Here’s a big one. The amount of information that we really know as truth is pretty sparse. A huge amount of what we "know" is really based on culture and belief. On stories that we have told ourselves.We tend to see what we think we see.

Where that really gets revealed by the affair is how we think this person is one thing, and they’re completely another. It’s pretty rare that there aren’t actually signs of an ongoing affair, but none are so blind as choose not to see. We have in our minds this person that we think the WS is, and that’s not who it really is. The WS, who is living in a world of lies, will take advantage of that. And of course they will, as they attempt to manipulate things and fill that hole in their self.

When you hear phrases like "I can’t believe they did that" or "that is not like them" then you can see it in action.

If they did it, then they did it. There’s nothing to believe.

If they did it, then it is "like them". You are what you do.

And yet here we are denying what is right in front of us, because we cling tightly to that person that only actually truly existed in our head. It correlates with what is in front of us, but it’s not the same.

So when practice, I’ve learned to work at unknowing people. To work at forgetting everything I know about them, and seeing them with fresh eyes, as they are right here right now in front of me. Really, to just actually see them. When you do it for a while, you’ll become aware of how much preconception we carry around with us. It can be jarring too, like that movie Field of Dreams where all of a sudden people see a baseball game going on where before all they saw was a Field of Corn.

When you do this, when you really actually see the person while they are in front of you and talking to you, and you pay attention to it, you’ll see it affect the person. It might even freak them out a little bit.

In interactions we count on people believing things about us, and we can’t help but take advantage of it at least a little bit. Your mom thinks you’re the brightest kid in the class, etc. Just the same with a WS, they can’t help but use that mental model you hold of them to try to gently manipulate the situation. When truly being seen, it can feel like someone staring at your soul.

[This message edited by HouseOfPlane at 12:23 PM, Thursday, October 16th]

My goodness HouseofPlane,

Before I got to your edit, I thought I knew exactly what thoughts I wanted to respond with. I truly was hearing someone who learned nearly exactly what I had learned. But then, holy crap, your edit has plunged me deep into reflective thought. Burying my shallow view of things benight a mound of wisdom I do not grasp. A wordless place, for the moment, while I attempt to ferret out the depth of this edit. Be patient with me. But what I feel to my bones is that we need to talk more about this edit of yours.

Asterisk

Yeah, I went back and reread your first post. These pieces stood out.

once seen as built upon a solid, unadulterated foundation…

fractured everything I thought I knew and believed….

"Who really is this stranger I chose to wed?"…

Each anniversary of D-day an annual shattering of the already broken pieces…

…in preparation for reconstruction.

When you understand that that solid, unadulterated foundation is actually based a lot on a story that we tell ourselves based on culture, beliefs, etc. then that fracturing is actually a revealing of the truth.

Conversely, that "preparation for reconstruction" points at building out a new set of beliefs based on concepts, culture, history, etc. that will also not be true.

If you value the truth, then the real goal should be to live in a permanent state of not-knowing, of trying to see things as they are and not through some built-up lens of concepts. Or at least get in the habit of constantly questioning them, a stepping back and pausing to actually see.

Having to ask each day, who really is this stranger I chose to wed, isn’t a bad thing. I guarantee the wife that is standing in front of you is actually way more interesting and complex than the one that lives in your head, if you choose to see.

Deciding whether or not you want to stay married to that person is a different question. But it is far better to go in with the truth in answering it.

If you are interested in diving deeper, highly recommend The Book of Not-Knowing by Peter Ralston. It skips all the foo foo and dives right into these sort of deep questions.

If I learned anything from all of this it's this:

Having to ask each day, who really is this stranger I chose to wed, isn’t a bad thing.

I think the blame thing is more nuanced than many make it out to be. This feeling has evolved for me as I've navigated R and IC. My conclusion for my own personal situation is that I think a WS has to have some character flaw to start but I also think the environment needs to set the stage (I feel very strongly in my case that this certainly happened). We had 4 kids, I was traveling constantly for work, I had an undiagnosed medical condition that didn't come to light until 3 years after Dday that was causing constant fatigue. All of those things created an environment where there was not much time for "us". NOW, that does NOT excuse the choice or where the blame should fall but it was important for me to recognize that the situation we were living in contributed to this and "helped" make the choice easier. The reason I say all of this is post-A as R gets started, I needed to understand this part of the equation to help us move forward. Making time for one another, saying "no" to folks/events/distractions that could take time away from R. R HAD to be a priority for this to work so a 9pm work call that would have been answered previously, needs to wait now. A group wants to go out when maybe it's best if we stay in and watch a movie...needs to wait.

I think if I ignore that part of this whole mess, it doesn't set us up for success. Again, some of you might be interpreting this as me taking some of the blame. If so, I'm not expressing myself well. I just think, your marriage has been destroyed, you're choosing R so you better take a look at the before and after collectively and not just from your W perspective. It's been working for us so far.

Hey Bos --

I think if I ignore that part of this whole mess, it doesn't set us up for success. Again, some of you might be interpreting this as me taking some of the blame. If so, I'm not expressing myself well. I just think, your marriage has been destroyed, you're choosing R so you better take a look at the before and after collectively and not just from your W perspective. It's been working for us so far.

Makes sense to me.

Blame doesn't solve much.

Among the damage to me, I know my wife failed herself too, now what?

As I've noted, none of my wife's choices reflect on me, but my choices in R do.

Too many people stay in an M and stay miserable.

If I'm going to stay I'm going to look at being in the best possible relationship or I need to move on.

Best possible R, best possible relationship includes what I can do to be better and do better too.