SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hi all,

Posting in the reconciliation forum as looking for positive stories of success please.

We're about 6 months after D-Day. WW had a PA with a co-worker. We've been working through things (and if you've seen previous posts it's definitely been the well recorded roller coaster).

My WW appears a good candidate for R. Is doing the work in IC, being open, improving communication and we've had some "normal"/good times over the past few months. We're in couples counselling and working through how we can get trust back into the relationship and improve lines of communication.

However, I find myself coming back to the question of "am I 2nd choice" quite regularly. The AP didn't leave his wife (and she didn't leave him after I broke the news) so the big unanswerable question in my head is, if he had left her - would my WW have broken it off with me to go off with him? Or is she only trying to make it work for me because AP hasn't taken her off into the sunset or staying just for our little boy? I believe it's important to know that you're in a relationship with someone because they want to be in it, and not because it's convenient or the only option.

Looking for advice on whether this seemingly unanswerable question ever goes away with time. If it does, what did you do to help yourself get there or what did you WS do to help you get there. If it doesn't go away and always lingers in the back of the head, what have you done to help keep it at bay?

TIA

I’m also close to the 6 month mark after D-Day. My WW is also in IC and MC. We’re both making some progress, but if I had to make a choice to stay or divorce right this moment, I would choose divorce.

Thankfully, I don’t have to make that choice right now, I have some time to figure out if we can continue to make progress during reconciliation.

Although I don’t feel like I’m the 2nd best, I do feel like my wife doesn’t actually want to be in this marriage as much as I do. Beyond just the affair, she’s said some pretty hurtful things, making it clear that she was ready to leave me prior to the affair.

I too would love to know how you can tell if someone is staying with you for the right reasons. Hearing, "I love you" is nice and appreciated, but it doesn’t mean so much if you’ve been betrayed or the person has gone to great lengths to describe how unhappy they’ve been in the marriage.

And I think that’s what I’m looking for from my WW. Confirmation that what she said and did in the past is not only not going to happen again, but isn’t something that she’s worried about because she’s committed to moving forward in the present with a clear eye on the future.

I don’t think my WW (or yours) would truly be able to do that if they were secretly longing for another person, or another life.

"How to stop feeling 2nd best?"

You go old school - pull yourself up by your bootstraps.
Start reclaiming yourself NOW.

Only wear things that make you feel bad ass and bullet proof - for YOU.
Engage in hobbies for YOU - rekindle old ones and find some new ones.
Take YOURSELF on some outings - go to an RV show, car show, bike show, whatever interests you - spring is the time a lot of these start popping up
Drive in your car/truck and crank some tunes that make you feel powerful.
Engage in physical activity.
Look in the mirror and tell yourself "I am HeadPhoneBear and unfuckwithable" repeat often.

It takes time. It is HARD. You are worth it.

After all - you are far better than AP. Simply because you are YOU. He is stuck being the slime that is him. And he and his BS knows it.

Also, one of the things that is really helping me right now (although I don’t have a lot of confidence it will save our marriage) is I have told my wife that I’m committed to reconciliation until the end of this year. Then I will re-evaluate if I want to continue with reconciliation.This gives me comfort that I will not be in limbo forever.

I’ve also set some important milestones and red flags up that would essentially be "show stoppers" if I see these things happen.

Obviously, if there’s a second D-Day, I’m done. This is a hard lone for me.

One important example of a milestone is being invited to family gatherings (on her side). There are a number of birthdays and other events that will be happening in the next few months, and if I’m not invited, I will begin talking to a lawyer. The reason this is important to me is because my WW made a huge deal about me being absent from these types of things, and when I said I wanted to go, she told me I was no longer invited. So this has become essentially a canary in the coal mine for me, and I ow use it to gauge my wife’s ability to look forward and not hold resentment for me.

Not sure if any of this will help with reconciliation, but it’s definitely helping me to feel like I have a plan to review, measure, and react to her behavior in a meaningful way. I feel confident that one way or another, I will have a solid understanding of my WW’s feelings towards me, and if they strong enough to sustain our marriage in a healthy way.

64k dollar question. H stated that at the time of A he remembered having 2nd thoughts about being married. Thought he'd made a mistake. H waited 42 yrs to clue me in. Now he tells me that he always loved me. Never wanted to divorce me. He momentarily lost his mind but never wanted out.

I believe it's important to know that you're in a relationship with someone because they want to be in it, and not because it's convenient or the only option.

My struggle (one of them) is that I will never know if he truly stopped and stayed because he did love me or he just thought he'd fake it til he made it. I do believe he loves me now, but I can't help but wonder about the years post A. Nobody wants to feel like a regret.

To answer your question, it hasn't gone away yet but when it pops up, I try to distract myself with other thoughts and/or activities. I don't have a time machine, so I need to either accept my H's answer as truth and get on with living or continue to ruminate over what ifs and be miserable. He has done a real turn around in the past 15 months. I'm leaning towards acceptance.

I asked my wife directly, more than once and in a few different ways over the first couple years of recovery if I was simply the last man standing in a competition I didn’t know I was in.

In my case it wasn’t ever a fair comparison.

Between me and the AP, I was the honorable man. I didn’t try to destroy two families, and I all did was love my wife and sons.

I was always the better choice.

The thing I learned was, my wife’s actions were not about me being less.

Her fall from grace was all about her issues, her esteem, her need for validation.

Over time, I understood it was never about me (but it should have been, I should have been considered somewhere along the way).

A good candidate for R is someone willing to tackle those issues and become a stronger person with better boundaries and coping mechanisms.

And it’s not easy for any WS to conquer their shame, heal themselves and help heal the M, all at the same time.

Infidelity is far more traumatic to us, I’m just saying the work a WS does is critical to you feeling like you are a priority.

My wife’s work, motivations and actions over time were consistent enough to show me that being in the relationship is where she wanted to be.

At this point, 9-years after discovery, I don’t doubt her intent or my standing in her life. I’ll never be glad about the horror show of her choices, but I am glad I stuck around to be with a far better, wiser version of her.

I believe it's important to know that you're in a relationship with someone because they want to be in it, and not because it's convenient or the only option.

I am the original ws.

I think this quote is the crux of what may help over time. It takes a lot of consistency and action on the ws over a long period of time as in essence what you are talking about is an element of trust.

It sounds like it’s moving in the right direction but to me holding this as a question is a healthy thing to do because it means you will be watchful over this.

My experience was this: In an affair, there is no real emotional safety, the instability of that relationship creates a push/pull dynamic. This creates very high and very low feelings, creating an effort to keep chasing the high. It’s in essence a place where I suspended my disbelief to encapsulate myself in a world of escapism. It’s a big form of avoidance for many people, myself definitely included.

During that process there was a lot of downgrading my husband and marriage but this was nothing more than trying to justify my heinous actions. There is this duality that is difficult to describe but I never lost track of who was the better man or who was really there for me.

Anyway, the ap was caught and the affair ended. And I can readily attest had he not been caught it probably would have gone on longer. Do I think it would have been a viable relationship? No, and I didn’t even think that at the time it ended. Now that’s just one testimony of an affair but when you fall in with an ap it’s more about who is around you that is convenient and willing so it’s not the robust pool of possible choices like when you are out there single looking for someone to date. Affairs are not usually based on compatibility.

So when the light of day of discovery hits, the bs can only see that their ws risked everything to be with that other person. So they see the other person as the threat or the first choice. That is natural and understandable.

The threat really is why did your spouse choose to use this escapism? Why did they avoid trying to find a healthier way to boost their confidence and create good feelings? What are their true values and why did they reprioritize them?

These answers are all different for each person. But what I am getting at is your wife didn’t likely choose you and didn’t choose the AP, she chose herself. She chose an experience to bolster or avoid something in her.

I think as she discovers what those things are, figures out how she can give herself those feelings herself, and continues to prove she is trustworthy, it’s likely you will be able to internalize this too.

I hope this helps.

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:56 PM, Friday, March 14th]

Thanks HO. It helps me. :)

You've got to love yourself to get a satisfying answer to the am-I-2nd-best question. Love from someone else helps, but only if you love yourself.

I know that being betrayed casts lots of doubt on the above, but healing requires (re)building self-love. I don't mean self-indulgence - I mean wanting and doing what's best for you, with kindness for yourself while pretty much meeting your own standards for yourself. (There are limits/constraints on what is and isn't self-love, but it would take a book to outline them.)

If you believe you're good enough for your WS, you can see and feel what your WS is giving you.

So the question shouldn't be 'Am I 2nd best?' The question that has to be answered is more like, 'Is this a marriage that I want to sustain for the rest of my life?'

Part of the answer comes from consistent behavior over a long time. Alas, you can't predict the future. You can only guess and go one unit of time by one unit of time. At first, it's hour by hour. Fourteen years ago, I bet that my answer and my wife's was 'yes', but I think I prepared myself to handle false R - by rebuilding my own self-love, not dependent on my W's loving me.

Wow. Thanks all. Feel like just shutting the thread now and pinning this for myself in the future!

4characters - sorry to hear you're going through this but glad to see you have a clear plan and way through. Stay strong bud.

Chaos - I wanted to start wooping, throw a fist in the air and yell "f*** yeh!!!" on reading your post. Thank you!

Old wounds

Between me and the AP, I was the honorable man. I didn’t try to destroy two families, and I all did was love my wife and sons.

I was always the better choice.

Hell yeh I'm the better choice!

Her fall from grace was all about her issues, her esteem, her need for validation.

Over time, I understood it was never about me (but it should have been, I should have been considered somewhere along the way).

A good candidate for R is someone willing to tackle those issues and become a stronger person with better boundaries and coping mechanisms.

And to be fair, my WS is putting in the work and she has said the reason for the A is because of this need for validation her rock bottom self-esteem (due to issues with relationship with her Dad) so I do feel good candidate for R. I just need to see that consistent work, like you say.

Hikingout

but when you fall in with an ap it’s more about who is around you that is convenient and willing so it’s not the robust pool of possible choices like when you are out there single looking for someone to date. Affairs are not usually based on compatibility.

So when the light of day of discovery hits, the bs can only see that their ws risked everything to be with that other person. So they see the other person as the threat or the first choice. That is natural and understandable.

The threat really is why did your spouse choose to use this escapism? Why did they avoid trying to find a healthier way to boost their confidence and create good feelings? What are their true values and why did they reprioritize them?

These answers are all different for each person. But what I am getting at is your wife didn’t likely choose you and didn’t choose the AP, she chose herself. She chose an experience to bolster or avoid something in her.

This makes so much sense. Amazing post. Thank you.

Trumansworld - thank you for your honest and raw response. Hope you're staying strong.

[This message edited by HeadPhoneBear at 6:21 PM, Friday, March 14th]

HPB,

It’s been many years since my DD.

I have never stopped thinking that she "settled" for me. Does she pine for AP? Don’t know. She dated men before me. Maybe she thinks of them with longing. Don’t know. But I’m quite certain that she doesn’t love me, maybe never did. In a conversation after DD, I told her I thought she had found herself now stuck with me. She had no answer.

But, on to what’s important here. Why do I feel this way. Two things:

1. I often feel disrespect or contempt (synonyms?) from her.

2. She is clearly not as happy a person post cheating as she was pre. There could be many reasons for this, I know.

But when I see those two things, the pain of her disappointment with me washes over me.

I don’t recommend being in this place.

So, my advice? If you’re seeing those two things, you may be like me and never get past feeling second best.

But if you’re not seeing those things, if she seems happy and loving, give it time.

Do you worry about who she dated before you? Probably not. If she’s happy and loving, stop worrying about AP.

But when I see those two things, the pain of her disappointment with me washes over me.

I am sorry FPP.

I have to wonder if she secretly feels the same way about you?

The reason I pose that, and I am not trying to invalidate your feelings is because I have been a shameful avoidant person in the past. Is it at all possible that she thinks she ruined the chances of those softer parts of the marriage and feels that you just did the "right" thing by her and the family?

I m sure you know your situation better than I but I wonder if the lack of communication/assumptions made by both of you are the true barriers of having something more fulfilling between you?

I realize she should have been the one to drive it, but as an avoidant person one can fear of upsetting the Apple Cart.

I think not answering about being stuck with you after dday could have a) been her still being in that fog space where she was still believeing her own bullshit or b) she felt it to be a jab than a question?

Perhaps I am just always the ever optimist, but the ways we interpret each other and show our love can be missed or misinterpreted? Her lack of happiness could be that she feels she put a barrier between you that could never be taken down. I just want you to have a better outcome if it’s at all in the range of possibility.

What does your marriage look like- you still have fun together, are you intimate? (I hope that I didn’t cross a line asking that as I realize it’s a very personal question) I wonder if some of her restraint is more who she is rather than how she feels. I think if she didn’t love you or didn’t want to be there those types of women tend to go find another AP in time. I suppose there are things she finds enough value in to stay and be faithful now?

Maybe it’s a lack of love but the way you presented it here there is at least some possibility left that it’s possible what you really have is a lack of communication.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:12 PM, Friday, March 14th]

Sisoon

So the question shouldn't be 'Am I 2nd best?' The question that has to be answered is more like, 'Is this a marriage that I want to sustain for the rest of my life?'

This is awesome advice. Thank you. Exactly how I need to look at it!

FPP - Thank you for the honest advice. I'll certainly look out for that behaviour. Hope you can work through it.

Hiking,

I suspect you’re completely correct, but maybe that’s hopium.

In any event, I invested heavily in her once upon a time, with terrible results.

And since DD, she’s never even tried. I can imagine various reasons, but . . ., she’s never even tried.

Reinvesting is just too dangerous.

It’s crazy to me how many negative emotions and thoughts come from infidelity! The self doubt was one I was not expecting. I have always been confident in myself, I can recognise my strengths and weaknesses and was quite content with that. But when my husband has an affair with a 23 year old a lot of self doubt did creep in.

But I remember when I told one of my friends about his affair, she sat there in shock but yelled at me ‘WTF? Your are so hot and so funny, what a dickhead’. Hahahah - got to love your besties! A lot of self reflection helped me in this space and I know my worth.. I’ve always known Im not perfect but I’ve definitely got attributes that make me a good person and loving and supporting partner and I deserve love. Love should not be a competition and honestly if he doesn’t want/love me he can just fuck off and live any life he wants, I don’t care. I have told him this many time since D-Day and he is still here.

I didn’t really feel second best BUT I still sometimes think he only stays for convenience rather than love and that he stays cause no one else would have him for longer than a quick fuck. He has said over and over that is simply not true, that he stays because he loves me, our son and because he just loves the life he has because of us. I can only assume he is telling the truth. And go be honest, convenience comes with marriage for both of us so I try to let this go!

[This message edited by Webbit at 9:51 AM, Saturday, March 15th]

My H had a typical midlife crisis affair 13 years ago and he planned to D me to be with the OW. And during his affair he told me everything that was wrong either me, how "miserable" he was, etc.

He was only "miserable" at the time when he met the OW. Other than that we had a good marriage.

And the OW was fully expecting him to D me and she was ready and willing to believe she was going to step into my shoes and replace me. Sail off into the sunset and live happily ever after lol.

I never felt like I was second best or he settled. He had to work so hard to convince me to R (this was his second affair) that there is no way he would put in this much hard work and effort if he was "meh" about me or the marriage.

When I told him he was free to go and be w/ the OW he refused. No longer wanted it.

There is no way to know definitely BuT if your cheating spouse stays and us doing the work to R, I believe they recognize the affair wasn’t real and in the light of day, the AP wasn’t all that.

Former people person-

I do completely understand why you do not want the emotional risk. And I wasn’t really suggesting you make a big investment to feel that rejection all over agin. I get what you are saying 100 percent.

I also understand that her not taking those risks to be vulnerable has translated to she doesn’t love you. Love is a dedicated practice of actions. I suspect the two of you have loved to a a certain extent, but trying to read it as love falls very short.

You have handed her your heart many times and she has stomped on it, so it’s easier not to have hope or put yourself in a vulnerable position to hope.

I haven’t been as happy as I once was before deciding to have an affair. I have been solidly working on that for some time and have made some progress. But that lack of happiness is regret, shame, guilt, disappointment, loss, etc and it’s a common ws issue to not be able to overcome the shit we did.

I am only talking to you about this because I think everyone deserves the love that they want to have in this one life we are given and I have great empathy for you on that note. I wish your wife could be more proactive to try and get to the other side of her navel gazing to show you the appreciation you so rightly deserve. I get why it needs to be her, but also why it likely will not be her to precipitate that.

I just wish one of you could say to the other there is some discontent in what could have been and if the other felt that too there is some time and room to still think about working on that. Because I picture two people who might both want something and neither thinking it’s possible. You not wanting to put yourself in another vulnerable place to be hurting again, and her feeling like she doesn’t deserve more than what’s been afforded to her.

But I respect your need not to open the can of worms again. I just think it probably is more complicated than she doesn’t love you and while I have read that from you many times this was the first time you explained it with some uncertainty.. Rising strong by Brene Brown is a great book that I hope one of you pick up and read.

End t/j thank you headphone bear for a great discussion.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:49 PM, Saturday, March 15th]

The question of loving and being loved is so crucial, especially after d-day.

One of the things I got from therapy was the courage to ask my W 3 questions that scared the **** out of me:

1) Do you love me?

2) Are you in love with me? (I'd rephrase that now to, 'Do you desire me sexually?')

3) Will you commit to monogamy from now on?

Any 'no' answer was going to kill our relationship, I thought. (I got 3 'yes' answers.) Any 'no' answer would have been a terrible blow to me ... self-esteem, hopes for the future, memories of the past....

But I learned in therapy that I could recover from any 'no'. A negative answer would have ended what I thought I had, but it would have freed me to get away from the negative and perhaps find something very positive.

As I wrote, that's one thing I got from therapy, and it's one of the reasons I recommend it, if you find a good therapist.

I'm very sorry you've had to deal with this, FPP. You've been dealing with it for so long without getting out from under the pain of living with someone you think doesn't love you, I really think seeking help from a good IC will benefit you.

Remember: the demographics are in your favor. If you decide to dump your W, you can probably find another who's a much better fit for you Besides, you may just find that both of you held back because of fear.

Recovering from being betrayed takes courage, whether you rugsweep, let it all hang out, or something in between. It takes courage to stuff your feelings and stay with someone you don't want to be with. It takes courage to D. It takes courage to R.

But some ways of showing one's courage are better than others for a BS. I feared staying with someone who didn't love me more than I feared D. I feared a break in 2011-2012 less than I feared coming back in 2031 to say I had spent a good part of 20 years unhappy with my choice.

I think my life has been better because of that set of fears, so I urge other BSes to get to their nitty-gritty and risk their Ms and their self-image rather than settle or choose being noble and forgiving.

I know we all have to find our own paths, but I hate to see fellow BSes suffer. If one is unhappy in one's M, why not seek a change in the M?

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:46 PM, Saturday, March 15th]

Gang. The advice has been awesome. I've pulled my boot straps up and have been living the HPB life with HPB the main character for sure. Go Me.

To the extent that the last week I've been on the end of pendulum where I think F to WS and D is the way forward.

But I know it's a pendulum. And there will be days to come where i swing the other way and will be in a place where I feel her A was due to her low self esteem, poor MH and I'll sympathise and want to R.

What a roller coaster.

HPB

[This message edited by HeadPhoneBear at 1:55 AM, Saturday, March 22nd]