SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I am going to try and start this thread because I think it’s an interesting discussion to have. For context, this is sort of a spin off from the thread titled "ws looking for help from BS". What I wrote there is this:

We can only be considerate of others feelings. We are not really responsible for them. I have been seeing this theme a lot on here since I have been back on the forum.

Boundaries are about where one person ends and another begins and knowing how to effectively navigate with the nuance of knowing when to negotiate, when to compromise, and when to recognize a boundary.

I am going to start a thread in it because I don’t want to derail this one when you are really asking different questions right now, but also because I know there re many here that might benefit from the discussion.

So some additional thoughts that keep this more general because this really isn’t about one person or one thread. It’s more that in the aftermath of infidelity, I think there is often a redefinition of this in the healing stages and I believe there is a wealth of knowledge from the people of this forum on this topic we can all benefit from, especially those in the trenches right now.

If I wake up in the morning and decide to be in a bad mood, and I take it out on my H, that is me not being responsible with my feelings because I am not considering how it might effect his day. it is consideration to be in control of myself and manage my own bad mood.

If we want to purchase a new car, then we may have to debate about what’s the most important aspects of that purchase and try to come up with a decision that suits both of our needs. That’s negotiation.

But when it comes to healing infidelity, many people look at having boundaries with their spouse for the first time. We kind of have a saying here (I am assuming coined by sisoon, but I don’t have history on that - I know that’s where I learned it) but it is "the bs heals the bs, the ws heals the ws, and together they heal the marriage." And I know there are nuances to that and not everyone agrees with that philosophy , but I think it’s maybe the cleanest way to explain boundaries in a reconciliation.

So for the benefit of those trying to navigate this, I would like to call on the collective group to maybe try and illustrate ways boundaries changed in your marriage, and if you are healed and fully reconciled how those things still play out.

I will say a couple things from my experience to kind of give examples:

1. As a people pleaser (reformed, but my default is always going to be generous to those who I love/care about. It just comes from a different motivation these days), I felt that I did things to make people happy. In reality, I can’t make other people happy. I can do a nice gesture they appreciate, and maybe that makes a bright spot in their day. Or when it comes to marriage it might give the overall composite that I am interested in his well being and being a good spouse. But the responsibility of making him or anyone else happy was a weight that I carried for an impossible task. So I had to learn to make myself happy and to be generous and stop expecting the outcome to show I had that much control over someone else.

2. In addition to this I thought that if I was the perfect spouse that would ensure that he would always love me. Again, this in reality is something I have only so much control of. I do think there are conditions that make that idea more favorable but people decide for themselves whether they are going to keep loving you or not. It’s really not my responsibility to ensure he does this. Instead I see it’s my responsibility to be a healthy, whole person, and take responsibility for my behaviors and thoughts within the marriage. I can’t control if that’s what he does or not. I can control my responses, but not his decisions.

3. In our pre-A marriage, I wanted him to read my mind and just know things. When he guessed right, I believed he loved me. When he didn’t pick up what I was laying down I felt unloved. Now I see these as tests no one could really pass and really indicative of nothing except I didn’t tell him what I wanted. . So I had to become responsible for knowing what I want, and for constructive communication about that.

Today, If I like something he does, I tell him thank you and how much that meant to me and I try to do that even over small things. Through this I have a different appreciation for just how much he really does consider me.

If I don’t l like something, I tell him that too. I don’t always need an apology, I just need him to be considerate of that in the future. Depending on how big a deal it is and how mindful he is of it, it may later result in a new firmer boundary. Otherwise, I will just trust that he will take care of his side of the street on the issue.

Every marriage has several recurring things that never is solved because the feelings and boundaries between the partners are just polar opposite. I think at some point it’s both of our responsibilities to put it away and agree to disagree and respect each others stance by finding a way to coexist in it.

These probably sound like no brainers because it’s easy to be neat and tidy until you try and heal from infidelity. Suddenly, my bad mood in the morning might be due to a trigger from his affair, and in that case it becomes less cut and dried for example.

Can you chime in and tell the group what you learned about boundaries, and how that has benefitted you. And if it has, how it benefited your relationship?

And if you are in the trenches maybe this is a great place for you to look at whether your boundaries make sense and get feedback from some veterans here.

I think ultimately what I am looking for is to provide encouragement to the many here that take on more than belongs to them. Putting down the weight of carrying the other persons responsibility can be freeing and healthy for both ws and BS. I hope it sheds a light on what is your side of the street versus your spouse’s side of the street. Thanks in advance for sharing.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:49 PM, Sunday, March 17th]

Thanks for starting this thread. I feel like the prototypical member that you described the could benefit from this. I hope it is a lively and productive discussion.

If I wake up in the morning and decide to be in a bad mood, and I take it out on my H, that is me not being responsible with my feelings because I am not considering how it might effect his day.

So like this is the complete opposite of how my marriage operated, even pre D-day. I’m sure the dynamic played out both directions because it’s now clear that both my wife and I had no healthy conception of boundaries between each other. She also apparently lacked boundaries outside the marriage, I’ll at least claim to have had solid ones there. For example, my wife would have significant anxiety doing just normal stuff. Making dinner, helping the kids with stuff, don’t even bring up packing for a trip I have been told by her and myself and family and friends and counselors that I was supposed to comfort and support her in that and that was what it meant to be a good husband. And damned if I didn’t try. And it never worked and it made life miserable. This model that you are discussing, HikingOut, is the only sane way to live. Again, I want to say that I think I did it to, but I’m just far more aware of the way she did it to me. It’s going to take a lot of concerted effort for me to integrate this idea into daily life, but I see the value of it.

I think a lot of marriages operate on you are supposed to make your spouse happy. What I am describing is also just what I strive for, execution is not always perfect. Definitely didn’t have this in our pre-a marriage because if I did I probably wouldn’t have wanted out.

It’s not cut and dry. I do think you should comfort your spouse when possible. Being “in” things together is important. Whether it be over being overwhelmed to pack, or a ws needing to step up and comfort through a trigger. But you can’t take on her overwhelm as your responsibility to solve.

In the case of the ws needing to comfort through triggers, I think that is absolutely needed, but the bs also has to make movements towards managing them…eventually…obviously not in those early days. That would be putting a task to someone who is just trying to survive. Because while the ws inflicted them they can’t remove them. They are responsible for them, but they don’t have complete control over their existence.

I do think a good spouse is in the trenches with you and supports you. But they don’t take responsibility over you. So in the example you used about your wife’s anxiety, it’s her job over all to get help and figure out ways of coping and managing it. And your job to give her a hug or to listen and let her organize her thoughts. But you can’t fix her, and you can’t make her anxiety your anxiety if that makes sense.

I too hope people will chime in. I am still learning too. I think I have the big pieces but I love to get down in the nuance and see the benefits of applying it.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:58 PM, Sunday, March 17th]

HO

Thanks for starting this thread. My fWW and I stumbled onto this dynamic post her A. We understood and reluctantly accepted that expecting your partner to feel entirely accountable for your happiness is an impossible bar. And entirely unnecessary.

That said it’s been harder to put this in practice at crunch times. One time I had a career setback and was in a prolonged state of funk, my wife felt like I wasn't opening myself up to her. You know "help me help you" kinda deal. When she had severe PPD I felt something similar.

None of this had any direct relationship to her A but the A trauma did cast a shadow.

It’s not cut and dry. I do think you should comfort your spouse when possible. Being "in" things together is important. Whether it be over being overwhelmed to pack, or a ws needing to step up and comfort through a trigger. But you can’t take on her overwhelm as your responsibility to solve.

I fully agree. I don’t want to have a distant and cold relationship and say HikingOut told me this was the way! I want that dynamic of helping someone when they stumble. But the idea that the day to day should be two individuals that own their own happiness and act to acheive it, and then the relationship is a multiplier of the individual happiness and a buffer against individual despair, that is what I want. We had a dynamic that we gave our best to others and left shit over for each other. I own that I participated in that. And that was a tragedy.

(I am assuming coined by sisoon, but I don’t have history on that - I know that’s where I learned it) but it is "the bs heals the bs, the ws heals the ws, and together they heal the marriage."

Shortly after d-day, W & I decided to call a former therapist we ha worked with in the '70s, when she was in training. (I like to take credit for training her. ) She gave me that formula quoting 2 Cs/MCs in California who were married to each other.

That was one of the boundaries I picked up after d-day - it freed me to do my best to heal, no matter what my W did. It told me I could not heal my W, but I could heal me. It freed me not to require my W to heal me, because she couldn't.

Other changes in thought that came out after d-day, not in priority order:

1) I was damn well going to do what I wanted to do, no matter what others told me. I wanted to R, and I didn't care about the odds.

2) I realized I was a damned good H, despite my flaws.

3) I realized my W had been/was co-d, and I hated over-compliance. One of the reasons I picked W was because she said 'no' before M, and I missed her transition into not saying it any more. I've always thought that 'yes' is meaningless, unless 'no' is a good answer, too.

4) I always knew logically that my fidelity did not guarantee hers and that being attentive (good sex) didn't guarantee fidelity, either, but I believed both lies. I stopped believing them after d-day.

5) Like hiking, I asked for what I wanted. I addressed issues. I realized love was not enough.

6) I used every issue as a test for the future - resolving issues was positive for R. Not resolving an issue would have been negative, but we kept resolving them as they came up.

7) I gave up trying to control others.

I've been watching Season 1 of "Why Women Kill". The series involves express themes of adultery, so it may be a trigger for some here. But I would say it's not really "about" adultery. Rather, it uses adultery as a vehicle for exploring the theme of dishonesty/boundaries/responsibility within a marriage. Many of the questions you are asking here.

As to dishonesty, it looks at this through the spectrum, from well intentioned white lies all the way to monstrous falsehood constructs erected to enable infidelity and/or gaslight a BS. It also addresses the lies a person can tell her- or himself.

As to boundaries/responsibility, it examines this from many perspectives. One thread involves a wife whose husband is a script writer and a cocaine addict. You learn that he had a very successful script, but it was created during a peak of cocaine abuse that ended with him convulsing on the kitchen floor. You learn that the wife struggled with him through rehab and learning to live clean, but the absence of the cocaine high resulted in writer's block, a lethargy where he was unable to produce. This in turn led to resentment by her over being the sole bread winner while he slacked and lived like a frat boy slob.

Eventually, under pressure to produce another script, he started secretly using again. This sparked his writing fire and he completed and sold a script for a huge sum of money. In his coked-out state, this led him to believe that cocaine was his path to success, and his wife was a jailer trying to suppress his potential. For her part, she was terrified at the idea of coming home and finding him again convulsing on the floor. She is genuinely desperate to keep him alive and physically healthy. He equates this with a sort of spiritual death. The tension escalates as she insists with increasing vehemence that he stop using and get into rehab, whilst he more and more loudly proclaims his independence and his insistence that using cocaine is the thing that he will keep doing because he can earn millions. One spouse may feel she is placing a series of beacons to illuminate a path to wellness. The other may perceive them as bars to a jail cell.

I won't spoil it for you in terms of outcome. If you can stomach the central theme of infidelity, I'd recommend the series.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 1:04 AM, Tuesday, March 19th]

Boundaries for us pre and post infidelity was day and night. For me, I definitely pushed the boundaries pre infidelity. Nothing earth shattering but I probably played too much golf, and spent more money than she was comfortable with. But I always stayed in bounds in that there was no infidelity even though opportunities were there.

Her boundaries were great, until the one instance of her affair. She shut down the drunk guys that hit on her, was there for friends, and maybe spent too much on her and the girls, but nothing even close to going out of bounds.

After everything changed. If my lane was 50 feet wide prior, I was 50 feet out of my lane in terms of boundaries. I basically had none. I traveled on every golf trip I could, bought a classic car that we had prior to her affair agreed woukd be fun, but not practical so I passed on it before her affair. I was in retrospect clearly abusive (verbally) for a full year, and used sex not as a loving act, but rather as a release that wasn’t much different than watching porn. I rarely checked in with her. When I traveled prior I normally called a couple of times a day, after I could be away for a week and unless she called, we didn’t talk. I knew this was torture for her, but did it anyway Though some of these things early on was fun, after a while became soul crushing. I knew my lack of boundaries hurt her, but I just couldn’t stop. . Probably not much different than how a remorseful WS feels after seeing the pain in their BS.

For her the boundaries became ridiculous in a way. If she had the same 50 foot lane I did prior, hers after was like two feet. She did nothing that could ever be misconstrued as crossing or coming close to a boundary. Quit the gym and yoga, no girls night out even to a friends house, and drove me crazy telling me about everything she was doing. Way more than was needed. I think she felt if she could regain my trust, things would work out. But at that point it wasn’t the trust. I did trust her. But what she did was so awful nothing she could do would fix it

Obviously since we didn’t make it, this is probably the flip side of the original question as to what worked. This approach definitely didn’t

None of this had any direct relationship to her A but the A trauma did cast a shadow.

It’s funny that you say this. Most of my whys are about the less direct relationships of things.

I think of whys as an endless question loop. Why did I have an affair? Because I wanted to. Why did I want to? Because I was bored, deeply unhappy, and had been disconnected from self for a very long time. I wanted to be happy again, I wanted to feel sexy, vibrant, interesting, and be excited about life. An affair was a lousy way to achieve that. However, post affair I did work on myself to feel happier with who I am in a more genuine lasting way.

So when you think about what you just said- you were expecting each other to make each other happy - that’s sort of what created enough resentment that I was able to be callous.

Holding an unreasonable expectation that my husband was going to make me happy unconsciously made me feel like he didn’t love me because he couldn’t even see I was struggling. I really feel that expectation was cancerous in my marriage.

Looking back over the course of the years, had I taken responsibility for my own happiness more, I don’t think I would have been in the state that I was in when I had the affair. I consciously made a decision to do it when I knew it was wrong, so I have accountability over my choices. But in the end it was a lot of unexamined things that helped contribute to that decision.

There was a lot of unwinding thought distortion in the aftermath of the affair.

Sisoon- the statement of the ws heals ws, bs heals bs, and together they heal the marriage helped me tremendously sort out boundaries. It informed me why we were running as fast as we could and not getting anywhere.

I feel like most couples want to hyperbond. afterwards and figure out where the marriage went wrong. I failed to see that marriage is the sum of two people, if one of those people has a lot of healing to do they are not going to be effective at mending the marriage from that deep place that it needs to happen at. The issue never belonged to the marriage but in me.

The feelings on both sides are so big in the beginning both people have a hard time seeing much else. It took getting a lot of perspective to even calm down enough to take him in.

I think that’s part of why the first year for a lot of couples who reconcile is low progress and more about both people fighting for emotional stability. Not to mention the ws often has little insight on their behaviors to even begin to answer the deep meaningful questions a bs rightly has.

I think she felt if she could regain my trust, things would work out. But at that point it wasn’t the trust. I did trust her. But what she did was so awful nothing she could do would fix it

Can you talk about this a little more? How long did it take to trust her and why did you trust her? Over compliance?

I didn’t have a hard time going back to trusting my h either. I presume it’s because there are all kinds of things I still trusted him on. I felt like I didn’t know who the hell he was for a while but that didn’t last as long as I thought it would. Sometimes I think it’s naive, but I also chalk it up to what historically had been true. I think any lack of trust for me is filled in with I trust myself- if he did it again I wouldn’t waste a minute filing for divorce. I know a lot of people think that and it’s not true when push comes to shove, for me I know it to be true.

Also, like your wife, I had good boundaries with men. I traveled with them often for over ten years and honestly doing anything untoward never even crossed my mind. I knew stuff about their family, but not a lot past what the kids names were, approximate ages, what sports they played. I had met some of their wives or knew what they did for a living. Maybe if they had an upcoming vacation I might know they were going to Disney or something like that. But that was as deep as I knew about them personally.

However, I still wouldn’t say I had good boundaries in my relationships, in that I gave to much of myself until I reached martyrdom. I put up with a lot of things from people other than my husband and suffered in silence not to rock the boat. I think for me I just never really considered what I wanted beyond recognition and being useful. It was insurance against being abandoned. So much of how I conducted my life was fear based.

Why do you feel your wife had the affair, I don’t think I ever asked you that before?

Do you think you can forgive yourself for some of the reactions you had towards her? Have you built some compassion for yourself that you broke in the face of trauma? I know that a lot of your pain is that’s not who you wanted to be. In that way, I fully understand the wound that leaves you with.

But for the grace- hey long time no see. It’s funny over the weekend we had dinner with my daughter’s family and her in-laws and the in-laws were all about that show. I will check it out.

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:33 PM, Monday, March 18th]

How long did it take to trust her and why did you trust her? Over compliance?

I think trust came back in a few weeks. Not so much from compliance, although that helped. More from over 27 years with her at that point and seeing her devastation and pain. Also knowing that this affair was so out of character helped. We even had her examined as it felt like a manic episode rather than typical behavior.

I did arrange for my PI to randomly drive by and park at the house every so often the first few weeks but that was over kill. Even so,it came out later that she met him in a pubic coffee house, but that was more due to damage control on her part. I think knowing how much she valued her family and her knowing she was a millimeter away from losing it all was enough to assure me. I know not everyone subscribes to the school of thought that strong consequences are a deterrent to curb further destructive behavior, but I think it does. Also gives the BS back some power.

I think the fact you confessed made a huge difference. Had she done that things might have been different, but I’m kind of a hard ass and she was hoping that the affair was going to end with the end of the construction project. In the end she was in a kind of blackmail situation and was riding out the clock. I do think, although she disagreed, that it could have gone on for months more and maybe years. Not so much for her to get pleasure, but for him threatening to tell me. He was an electrician and had flexible hours, and she wasn’t working. Wouldn’t have taken much for him to insist on a monthly or by monthly tryst. It didn’t help that I was in a major city and had a very set schedule. The commute was 1 1/2 and I was on one of two trains at night getting home around 8. Realistically though, he was abusing her so badly that I think at some point my wrath would have been preferable to her situation where in the end the coercion comes very close to rape in my mind

Why do you feel your wife had the affair, I don’t think I ever asked you that before?

That might be the easiest question of all as I think we got to her why’s. Our last daughter was leaving for college and the two girls were both out in the world making their way. I was at the peak of my career traveling to great places on the corporate jet. And she as a SAHM after devoting everything to the kids felt like the 55 year old man or woman who gets let go of their jobs, but without skills to compete in a younger environment. She felt left behind. It wasn’t lost on me, as one of the reasons for this huge project was to give her something to sink her teeth into. She was very capable to do it and she had almost total control. But still she had insecurity about it.

Then comes a guy who it later comes out targets the pre menopausal women as a sport to get them to do things with him they don’t do with their husbands. His first part of grooming wasn’t sexual. It was lavishing her with praise of how skillful she was in her ideas for the project and maybe she could be a part of a business he was starting to renovate homes purchased that were delinquent in taxes. For a women who had no job skills and was floundering as to what to do with her life, this was a lifesaver being thrown to a drowning person. The sexual grooming followed pretty quickly. I think had he not done the first, she would have rejected to sexual part. He did know what he was doing. The fact he was significantly younger and in great shape was an ego boost for her. She was still beautiful, but when she walked into a room with my daughters, the eyes went on them first. A big change from years ago when every eye went to her. He also had young kids and wasn’t in the same social circle which made the fling more acceptable. It wasn’t like she was replacing me.

Do you think you can forgive yourself for some of the reactions you had towards her? Have you built some compassion for yourself that you broke in the face of trauma? I know that a lot of your pain is that’s not who you wanted to be. In that way, I fully understand the wound that leaves you with

.

That’s kind of a work in progress. I am confident that she deserved to lose me for what she did, but I didn’t have to be such a prick about it. I told her at one point, everyone deserves happiness, you just don’t deserve happiness with me.

It’s funny, right now we are not getting along. One daughter is getting married and we agreed to split the costs. We basically split 50/50 in the divorce so we had the same money. The issue is she is not a great investor. Sold during Covid, chose all the safe investments etc. she still has plenty of money, just not as much as me who followed our advisors advice while she didn’t. So we are having all these overruns and she feels like since I have more, I should pay more. But again, the overruns aren’t enough to jeopardize her. I think it’s her insecurities and maybe trying to screw me so my feelings towards her at this juncture are not too positive.

Very interesting post. I’m glad you brought it up, and I apologize for the book I just wrote!

I think trust came back in a few weeks. Not so much from compliance, although that helped. More from over 27 years with her at that point and seeing her devastation and pain. Also knowing that this affair was so out of character helped. We even had her examined as it felt like a manic episode rather than typical behavior.

I understand this. I was so gobsmacked by what I did and the fallout of it all, I wasn’t going to make any false moves, nor did I have any desire to keep cheating.

I did have trouble with the lingering limerence but in an odd way he understood that aspect of it. He knows a lot from our history and knows that emotional connection would have to be present for me to go through with a PA. Everyone’s different but he was right about that, and I think that I had already put myself in therapy and had already fired a therapist for telling me not to confess, I don’t really think he was worried about that aspect. Of course the AP lived 1000 miles away and had also gotten caught. But anyway, I understand what you are saying. He had full access to everything but rarely checked it. He did it just enough for me to know he still might I guess.

I did make him take a lie detector test after his. Because it was obvious during mine that everything was off. I wasn’t operating normally. The fact I noticed nothing in 18 months, I was concerned if there had been others. We agreed to the few questions and I took it too in solidarity.

I think the fact you confessed made a huge difference.

While I do understand that would be more desirable and why, I am not sure it had that much impact. Maybe if I had been less foggy and not saying stupid shit it would have held more water. We had a really bumpy first 18 months or so. Then things suddenly got better. At the time I thought it was because I had done a lot of work and we were truly reconciling. I know now I think he just felt guilty because that’s when he started fucking her.

But man, our marriage seemed good for those 18 months he was having the affair. Of course the last six months we had been home together on COVID lockdown and the sex with her had ended and they had limited contact, but it was still a lot of guilt-induced niceness I think.

I was at the peak of my career traveling to great places on the corporate jet. And she as a SAHM after devoting everything to the kids felt like the 55 year old man or woman who gets let go of their jobs, but without skills to compete in a younger environment.

My affair happened when I was younger than that, but our older children were my steps and had already left (though we were close and still are- I have known them since they were very little) our youngest was leaving and while I did have a big career, I felt washed up, burned out, and older than I was. I didn’t have a lot of personal time to really expand my satisfaction in life. So the middle age, empty nest we had that in common and I had forgotten that.

That’s kind of a work in progress. I am confident that she deserved to lose me for what she did, but I didn’t have to be such a prick about it. I told her at one point, everyone deserves happiness, you just don’t deserve happiness with me.

I think sometimes you just have to recognize that you were doing the best you could. That trauma train leaves the station and it kind of becomes a momentum. I think that iou recognized and corrected your behavior and you tried for five years to feel differently. You learned things from all of it and despite the money/wedding arguments, you have long spoken about her with compassion.

I highlighted what you wrote because you said everyone deserves happiness. Yes, you were cruel, but so was she. If she deserves happiness, so do you. I have long sensed that because she never quite found her footing towards happiness that it may detract from yours. Had she moved on, fell in love, got married, or thrived in some other way I think you would probably feel more balanced than you do there.

I guess like many here, I found the stories of Walloped and Mrs Walloped very helpful.

I read the posts well after they were posted.

I hope they are doing okay.

There are many parts of the story that have stuck with me.

One is where Walloped was describing his wife answering back, and then looking at him aghast, then him responding ‘pleased to meet you, I’m walloped’. He was pleased to see his wife again in that interaction, rather than someone terrified of doing the wrong thing.

Which is to say, eventually successful reconciliation involves both partners welcoming a return of healthy independence.

The change in my marriage is that I am more blunt, although not without compassion. On the weekend my wife said "father’s don’t matter". She doesn’t really mean that about me I think, but she has zero relationship with hers. He stopped parenting her actively when my wife’s mother cheated on him with a family member. She seems to have no compassion for his predicament.

I just looked at her and said "dude? Really". I think before day I would have bit my tongue and just given her a pass.

HO

So when you think about what you just said- you were expecting each other to make each other happy - that’s sort of what created enough resentment that I was able to be callous.

Holding an unreasonable expectation that my husband was going to make me happy unconsciously made me feel like he didn’t love me because he couldn’t even see I was struggling. I really feel that expectation was cancerous in my marriage.

Growing up, my wife was very close with her never-married aunt, who I was told, broke off her engagement on two separate occasions (different men). My WW would spend weeks during summer breaks with the aunt. The aunt's notions of how a husband ought to behave, supplemented by an endless supply of trashy romance novels at her aunt's place informed my wife's expectations of me. Not in the sense of eloping on horseback and stuff but more in the sense of me reading her hints and understanding her wants and needs. I was able to do that when we dated and early on after marriage, but it became impossible when you are working 100 hour weeks poring over spreadsheets and taking red eye flights.

Post her-A, she still does her "read my hints" thing but she learned from her IC sessions that for things that really matter to her she should communicate explicitly and repeatedly if necessary. I still try to do the hint-reading thing when I can, but she has learned to take more ownership of her expectations by being more forthright with me.

Funnily enough, our older daughter has started doing this same shit with my wife and I have been having a blast reminding my wife of karma.

Ragn3rK1n

As long as that works and she can prioritize what’s important, that’s one way to effectively handle it. At the end of the day it’s about understanding each other implicitly, and it sounds like you understand what she is putting out.

For us, my husband feels that hints are tricks. And they are pretty much outlawed now in he won’t respond to them. I am okay with that, because when I am expected to use my words it forces me to really think about what I want and ask. I think your way is nice because it would allow for more nuance. But overall, he does try and do random nice things for me to where I still feel romanced so it seems to be working.

I just looked at her and said "dude? Really". I think before day I would have bit my tongue and just given her a pass.

This sounds healthier. She should be mindful and intentional. My husband is also more blunt-and earlier into our reconciliation it was hard for me to cope with. I eventually reframe it. He is never rude or malicious but when I say something inconsiderate, it’s just a reminder to strive to be more empathetic. We will still have a go back and forth sometimes but usually I choose those battles where I feel misunderstood. I will say it’s far less that, and just me not being mindful with my words or audience.

I remember the wallops well. Mrs. Wallop and I did stay in communication here and there after she stopped posting. I think she is one of bery few ws who had a good marriage before the affair that I would message with so I learned the most from her and the others with that similiar background. Most of the others I privately messaged had marriages where they should have divorced their abusive h before the A, and then a few that they were never going to do the work and their husbands needed to divorce them.

I last heard from her and Mr walloped when they read about h’s affair. This was still during Covid because Mr. Walloped got very sick with it and was in the hospital and had a hard recovery.

I wasn’t here yet when walloped was in the thick of it. Mrs. Walloped showed up and helped me learn how to think and talk about what I had done. I saw myself in her in the way she would describe her affair, but she had evolved enough that I aspired to become more like her, like a mentor. Very special people. I don’t know where I would have ended up without her.

I believe they are still together and are enjoying being grandparents these days but it’s been a while so I don’t know for sure.

[This message edited by hikingout at 1:25 AM, Tuesday, March 19th]

Boundaries, hmmmm what have I learned…

I remember waking into my therapist office and she told me we would be working on boundaries. I remember telling her, "I don’t even know what that means…what are boundaries?"

I recall the "boundaries are where you end and I begin" quote, it still took me quite some time before I could learn to really apply them.

I also remember my therapist telling me I would be in charge of my own healing. Her exact words were, "We heal ourselves." To which I replied in anger, "Seriously? That’s not fair. My WS gets to dump all of this crap on me and I have to heal MYSELF? She does nothing to help?!" I was so mad.

Eventually I learned why this was…if I had kept the very transactional dynamic and "relied on my WS to heal me " (gosh that feels weird to even type) well then I would never freaking heal. I’d be stuck there. That’s a lot of power to give someone else. That’s a very helpless place to be…there’s no control over your own life there.

One last thing my therapist grilled into me was, "We cannot MAKE anyone feel." She would repeat that to me regularly, and every time I would say, "I made her feel" she’d correct me…(because that’s a lot to put on myself). Every time I brought up my WS in a session she’d say, "We got into talking about WS because I asked _____. Let’s go back to you."

You repeat something over and over and over again to someone and it eventually starts to stick. Add to that my failed attempts in going to my WS for comfort during these painful times and being met with awful responses that only served to injure me further. I realized that my WS didn’t know how to be there for me, if I kept going to her with the hurts she caused me, I could only expect that she’d respond in a hurtful way. So I stopped going to her and learned to be there for myself. I started to pay a lot of attention to how people around me responded to me in my times of vulnerability, and adjusted myself in who I could share with that was safe and who I absolutely could not share with. I learned who my support system was.

I also realized that I would talk about my WS a lot, A LOT. It was always about how she did this and she did that, "Welllll…yeah ok maise…she did…but what else is this triggering within you? We could sit and focus on pointing the finger at her and all the ways she hurt you and all the ways she isn’t showing up for you, we could act outward, OR we could pause and go inward and see what is coming up and where we can work on healing ourselves further. Label the feelings you have, acknowledge them, let them flow. Where have you felt these things before in the past? What messages have you told yourself they mean about you?"

Slowly, over time I learned to detach. My codependencies kept me in a loop of not seeing self clearly, of not acknowledging myself, of doing this very transactional way of having relationships at my own expense. It was all I knew.

Another thing my therapist told me was, "As you begin to heal, all of your relationships will correct and you’ll get everything you ever wanted from them." That was astonishing. She was right, but I remember thinking, how?!?!

The inner work I did on confronting my own hurt self and nurturing myself, allowed for me to let go of the fears I had in changing my relationships and applying boundaries. Boundaries are what give me a voice, what I make sure I implement so that I can be seen and heard by not only others but my own self. I let go of the fear of losing relationships in my life, and realized that if people couldn’t love me when I grant myself a voice or draw certain lines that keep me from self sabotage, then they weren’t really worth keeping anyway. They weren’t actually loving ME anyway, they were loving my performance, or what I give them or “make them feel” about themselves. It taught me my value and my worth.

I feel like in my new partnership we both show up as whole people, and we join one another in each other’s life journeys. My joy doesn’t come FROM my partnership. I have that along with my own independence away from a partnership, when we join one another we add but we do not fill. We do not have expectations…we meet one another where we are and we go from there, respectfully, with integrity, with care, with consideration, with love.

If we trigger, we communicate that without throwing it on our partner. I find for me that if an emotion I’m feeling is really large then it’s probably a trigger. I’ll acknowledge that with myself, sort through it and communicate what happened. If we accidentally hurt one another, we own it and we correct. We hear one another and create space to discuss and to emotionally be *there*. If we have insecurities? Those don’t get thrown on the other person either. I’ll acknowledge my insecurity without making my partner responsible for “making me feel better”. We establish trust in knowing that I can be safe with my partner, and my partner can be safe with me in all aspects… physically, emotionally, mentally, spiritually, sexually.

So to take it back to our trusty quote, "boundaries are where you end and I begin"…well, for me, I had to dive deep into myself to learn about me. To learn to hear me, to see me, to pay attention to me, to nurture me, to empower me, to value me, to heal me…that all had to be done in order for me to properly establish where I begin and where someone else ends. The codependency and enmeshment had to be untangled so I could see clearly and learn to use my voice, and establish boundaries.

[This message edited by maise at 3:03 AM, Tuesday, March 19th]

Maise,

I truly couldn’t have asked for a better post. So many awesome nuggets of wisdom here.

I have to say also a lot of what you say apply to ws too. A few things you said reminded me of what daddydom recently wrote. I can’t remember the exact words to quote him but it was about the fact he never loved himself meant that he had no basis to form boundaries. And here you are saying you didn’t have a true sense of self, and I think when you add those two pieces together it’s very powerful. And something I relate deeply to.

Eventually I learned why this was…if I had kept the very transactional dynamic and "relied on my WS to heal me " (gosh that feels weird to even type) well then I would never freaking heal. I’d be stuck there. That’s a lot of power to give someone else. That’s a very helpless place to be…there’s no control over your own life there.

Yes, truth. And I actually think I learned this after my affair through my husbands detachment. Yes, I caused it, but if I relied on him to make me feel better, not only would that be cruel to him, it
would have meant wouod never have felt better. The obstacles were all in my own perspective.

Slowly, over time I learned to detach. My codependencies kept me in a loop of not seeing self clearly, of not acknowledging myself, of doing this very transactional way of having relationships at my own expense.

I mostly just repeated this in the quote because it is so powerful. I think many of us are terrified in the face of infidelity because we are more afraid of being abandoned than staying in the subpar relationship. The revolution of healing requires losing the fear of the relationship ending. I think the reason is, once you have gone enough down that road, you aren’t going to accept a toxic relationship. If the other person doesn’t change and heal alongside of you, it is untenable to stay together because you can’t work on a vulnerable, intimate relationship.

Another thing my therapist told me was, "As you begin to heal, all of your relationships will correct and you’ll get everything you ever wanted from them." That was astonishing. She was right, but I remember thinking, how?!?!

Yes! This is my experience too! I didn’t see how they would all change. I left a close friendship of 15 years because the supportiveness was all one sided. The relationships I did keep are deeper and more meaningful because I am showing up differently.

I let go of the fear of losing relationships in my life, and realized that if people couldn’t love me when I grant myself a voice or draw certain lines that keep me from self sabotage, then they weren’t really worth keeping anyway. It taught me my value and my worth.

Yes! For me, it helped tremendously to see when I stopped overdoing for everyone and constantly feeling like I needed to be this thing for people to like me- nothing changed except how much lighter I felt. This too showed me the things I was basing my worth on was not the right things to focus on.

I had to dive deep into myself to learn about me. To learn to hear me, to see me, to pay attention to me, to nurture me, to empower me, to heal me…that all had to be done in order for me to properly establish where I begin and where someone else ends.

Yes, full circle back to what daddydom was saying here. I think a lot of us get careers, marriages, kids, etc and it takes our attention away enough that it’s easy to fall into robot mode. Taking time to be mindful has for many been replaced with screens and the over scheduling many tend to do. This sort of thing takes a concerted effort we don’t tend to make because we don’t even see it as a thing.

Thank you Maise!

I’m going to deviate a tad from current responses to add something I feel a lot of marriages do.

I know for my own situation I traded boundaries for trust. Her AP was someone she met on her own, and tons of red flags were raised long before it became an actual affair, but I had absolute trust in her. During the A a lot was thrown on me about how Id did or didn’t do things to make her happy and I played pick me so hard to make her happy. I was also was raised to have mentality of "happy wife, happy life", so a lot of my reasoning was keep her happy. Again I traded very reasonable boundaries because I had absolute trust. I don’t believe in it anymore and it’s more of happy spouse happy house.

I don’t blame her for how it started, I was gone and she was lonely, I think many people would fall victim to the start of an EA under those or similar circumstances. Especially as an EA can start off insidiously innocent. It’s when it crosses all of the boundaries and the disregard of her responsibility to the m that causes the most pain

Hellhath,

Yes, blind trust is probably never something you get back after having been cheated on. A red flag after that is not going to be easily dismissed. I think this is a natural consequence, rather than a punishment, and it is not only understandable but it’s sane.

I

don’t blame her for how it started, I was gone and she was lonely, I think many people would fall victim to the start of an EA under those or similar circumstances. Especially as an EA can start off insidiously innocent. It’s when it crosses all of the boundaries and the disregard of her responsibility to the m that causes the most pain

I understand there were challenging circumstances.we were not spending time together and working all the time at the start of mine.

However, then the question becomes what about the next crisis? The next lonely stretch? It’s not a rational response to have an affair. I do agree that disconnection made minimizing my h easier. I mean when you aren’t in each others presence, it gets easier to ignore and rather than having to make up stories, it was all omission.

But as his wife, and I know I am preaching to the choir, it was my job to keep my commitments. It was up to me to learn to be a person who isn’t going to crumble when life gets hard. I know you have decided not to divorce, and with that off the table how are you approaching your boundaries about your wife doing the work to become that woman? I am asking genuinely, I only know a fraction of your story and most of my knowledge came in the last week or so. No offense but I had skipped a lot of your posts because your screen name I had confused with another and I didn’t feel aligned with their posts.

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:05 AM, Tuesday, March 19th]

hikingout,

I agree with you, much of the work could mirror in certain areas between the WS and the BS.

The relationships I did keep are deeper and more meaningful because I am showing up differently.

THIS absolutely! I feel like since I've done my internal healing work I have everything out of my friendships, I learned to make sure to choose a career I wanted with an amazing boss that treats me well rather than settling for asshole bosses, I have a wonderful partnership that I made sure to also choose for self after making sure I removed the walking red-flags that presented themselves in the dating world before this person, and I have really really developed good boundaries over all. I no longer turn to hurtful people or keep hurtful/disrespectful/using people in my life. I've also learned a lot of compassion for others and so, I do not feel anger or get embroiled into the drama that can occur sometimes. Knowing that how people behave is about them and is not personal to me, freed me. My own internal work also freed me in many ways, things that used to be able to get to me no longer do. Granted, I still have work to do in areas of my life, I believe I'll always be evolving on some level and codependency really has been such a bitch to truly break all the way through. And despite me creating so many safe spaces in my world and in my relationships, I'm still struggling to actually feel safe the way I could, still work there. BUT back to boundaries, my lost little soul that didn't know what the heck that word even meant before has definitely come a long way and I definitely know now what those look like. I may stumble in setting some of them sometimes but the good thing is that even as I still work on healing and setting some of those, I can see when I don't which is progress! I'm not lost in the sauce anymore. I wish you such a wonderful week!!!!

[This message edited by maise at 6:22 PM, Tuesday, March 19th]