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I would no longer engage with anyone on any of this.

The lawyer seems to want you to meet in person. 🚩🚩🚩🚩 b/c they should be able to discuss this via phone.

Something appears to be off and maybe you aren’t getting the full story. But if it were me and based in your prior experience, I would not answer an email, text, letter, meeting request, phone call or anything.

I would be very cautious that a phone call is not recorded (I know about consent laws) but people don’t always behave legally.

Protect yourself. Just move on.

Thank you 1stwife. Sure enough the lawyer never got back to me by 5 pm.. I tend to agree I'm being kept in the dark about something, so I just did another internet search as we are travelling. Learned that in my state, as Tushnurse said, an agency such as social services can file for Guardianship on behalf of an incapacitated adult. Drilled down into the nitty gritty of the coded law online and it says the petition must include the names and post office addresses of any known spouse, children and adult siblings. I am the only surviving adult sibling. The petition can list step-children if they can't find at least 3 such people but nothing about nieces or nephews. And if they cannot get to 3 individuals, I guess it goes on to another step.

So I bet this is what they are trying to do. And it looks like they can insist I give them that information at a minimum, if they haven't already gotten that information from the spouse or daughter. Further on, the Code says any such individual can file a Pleading to be made a party to the case. Oh yeah, what does that mean...and they consider things like "geographic proximity." Exactly what I was speculating!

Not being a lawyer, I got the chills thinking I may need to file a Pleading if I want the case to leave me the heck out! Although, I want to believe that wording was designed to address an individual 'on the list' who wants to object to Guardianship sought by someone they don't approve of or trust. But...what if it means that, if you don't want a court summons, you have to file a legal pleading?!

If it's going to get that bad, I guess it might be time for us to talk to our local estate lawyer...like tomorrow if he can fit me in.
I sure hope this is a bad dream.....

[This message edited by Superesse at 4:09 AM, Friday, September 29th]

I have been following along this journey but didn't respond because I have zilch experience or advice.

As I was reading the latest update today (about you trying to get the attorney to call you), I had a thought about some of the tips we get with dealing with our exes or other toxins in our environments. Could you move this away from a call and into an email so you have time to digest whatever they say?

I.E., have them email you the information and you can respond?

Update for those with the patience to read all this (Hi, EvenKeel!)

I stopped by my estate lawyer's office this morning and asked for him to call me back for a quick phone consult. When he kindly called me back, I ran through the main questions. He confirmed what you all have been telling me: "Nobody can force you to serve as a Guardian..." So that was a good little start!

He told me the lawyer's office who called me does not normally handle social service agency cases, so he had no idea who they are representing, but he said the same as some of you have mentioned: "Sounds like somebody filed a Petition for Guardianship and by law, they have to notify at least 3 family members." I told him the caller hadn't used the word "petition" but said "the daughter had asked for Guardianship." Yet he was as puzzled as we all are why they would want me to come in to their office unless, he offered, it was "so they can give you some information about the process." He thinks they will probably mail it, most likely first class (I asked if it would be sent Registered Mail. He thinks only a Summons would get sent Registered, if he were doing it. But added that every law office is different.)

So there is still a lot of mystery hanging over my head about this.

He told me "But you don't have to do (respond to) anything..." Yet when I said several people advised me not to take further calls or communications from that law firm and asked if that was the best way to "stay out of it," he replied "I can't tell you what to do, you will have to handle that however you decide." (Gee thanks, boss. Sidestepped that one!)

I asked if he were to send a letter to that law firm telling them his client wants to remain out of the loop, would that help? He said "It isn't necessary. And repeated "You don't have to do anything." Still unconvinced, I flat-out asked "Have you ever seen a case where an unwilling person was appointed Guardian?" He said "I have never seen that." He has been in practice here for over 40 years doing estate law.

I remembered to ask for the meaning of "Pleading to become part of the case" and asked if that is in the law just for someone who objects to the petition? He told me "A Pleading can be anything." He acknowledged I could even file a Pleading to be excluded from this mess, if I were to be Summoned. Sigh...

I brought up I'd seen the state Code specifying the Court makes the decision on who gets Guardianship and to make that decision, the Court must consider things like suitability and geographic proximity. I worry if my niece is half a country away, a judge might decide we'd be 'better suited' to be Guardian and I didn't want to be dragged into it and have to go on record about all the reasons that would be a disaster. He knows our history, but he just replied "The Judge decides..." Which wasn't a very reassuring thing to hear.

Y'all, here's my take on what he was trying to tell me, see if you think this sounds right: if "I cannot be forced to serve," but "the Judge decides," maybe my lawyer meant the Judge will either accept or reject that Petition for Guardianship, but the Judge's decision doesn't mean the Judge can willy-nilly pick another person either, just reject her Petition or Accept it? Sound right?

By the way, that law firm hasn't tried to call either me or my H back today. So that's what I know at this stage...not much more than I did yesterday! :|

Listen as someone who deals with elder abuse and neglect weekly im going to lay this out for you in the most logical manner.

1. Your attorney is correct.
2. It does the abused neglected person zero benefit to name a guardian that is reluctant. Hell half the time thats why the state gets involved because a kid is the default without action and they don't do what is needed.
3. If they were to somehow name you how does that resolve the neglect/care issue if you won't provide the care needed? That just prolongs the time and money wasted to get a proper person in place. And furthers the neglect or abuse that is currently happening.
A reluctant appointee only delays the care a person needs.
I cannot say this in any more clear way. Don't get involved. They will not appoint you unwillingly.

There are plenty of elders that have their care managed by a kid across the country. It is doable. There are plenty of Medicare Advantage plans that offer transportation to dr visits. There are camera systems that people install in the homes to check in on their loved ones when not there. There are people that you can hire to come in and provide meals. There are medicaid plans that pay for caregivers. There are pull dispensers that can be filled weekly and alarm when you haven't taken your meds at the prescribed times and pharmacies that will fill them. Modern medicine is an amazing thing that allow debilitated seniors to stay in their own homes much longer than ever before safely.
Now part of this that we haven't discussed is doing a division of assets that may need to happen to prevent his spouse from losing her home if the goal is place him in a facility. Long term care is VERY costly and in most situations is paid for by medicaid if not initially then eventually as funds run out. However for a married couple there has to be what is called division of assets to jot leave the other spouse destitute and not lose their home or any savings in their names or pensions. So that may be another piece of this puzzle if his wife is unwilling to do this and you brother needs to be in a facility then appointing someone guardian forces this issue as well.

I know you are concerned but please protect yourself from not getting involved at all

Tushnurse, bless you for spelling out some more of my concerns and even listing the ways by which daughter could act as Guardian from that distance without making them move to her state, and possibly causing the spouse to lose her home. I heard my lawyer agree when I said that this might happen if the daughter got authority from the court to do so. But from my online research, it looks like that would involve a separate, subsequent court action on her part.

I do NOT want to get involved, now or later! Not even considering it. I just would be really sad for the caregiving spouse, but that is for them to work out, as you said. After all, she is a senior, too, so they cannot just throw her out in the street. I hope. For all I know, she could need Assisted Living herself.

Hopefully I already clued them in enough I will not object to her petition when I said I just wanted whatever is best for my sibling, which was me trying to be totally Neutral. If they took that as my assent, maybe we're done.

As you and The1stwife said, if I utter one thing further than I already have, that can be a form of involvement as they put their case together. So I plan to lay low from here on. I just want to feel I'm within my rights when I don't respond to any questions about why I am unwilling, just so they can make the case to a judge that the daughter is the best choice. Without my knowing if this is going to involve them issuing me a Summons to appear as a witness, I'm not feeling quite out of the woods yet.

But now I wait and pray for the best.

Thanks so much!!

Sup, you are spinning and waaaaay over-thinking this.
From a legal standpoint: You cannot be forced to be his guardian. No one in the legal system expects you to be the guardian or cares about why you aren't requesting/don't want it.
My best guess is that the attorney who contacted you was appointed as your brother's GAL. This is the person who will make recommendations to the judge on the case. Again, the GAL doesn't care about your relationship w/ your brother or your (un)willingness to be his guardian. YOU didn't petition for it, someone else did. He/she is seeking info to help make a proper recommendation and since you haven't had a relationship with any of the parties involved for a long time, you really don't have any info to share about the situation and that's all you have to say if you end up speaking to the attorney (which you are under no obligation to do).

Sounds like this has really stirred up the FOO hornet's nest for you, but just breathe.

gonnabe2016, Much appreciated, and most likely to be the situation. I guess I'm once bitten, twice shy.

I do hope it works out exactly as you all are betting it will.

I know I'll sleep better when it is all said and done.

It is so hard to break out of family roles and expectations, not to mention religious teachings I've wanted to live by, just to save myself from their drama and pain. So yes, I have carried a load of icky feelings about having self-preservation instincts ever since our father was incapacitated and I didn't "step up" exactly the way my younger siblings wanted me to, and now again, I'm not behaving the way they would like....

I will be sure to post the outcome for you all!

I promised to update you all, and I want to thank you all SO MUCH for the heavy lifting you were sending my way last week, it truly helped me cope!!!

Never did hear another thing from that lawyer's office.

Yesterday, the daughter finally sent a text simply saying she was trying to get paperwork done for her dad and could I give her his mother's middle name. Well, our mother was famous for having made-up middle names; if she didn't like one, she'd use another. As it was a straightforward genealogy question I feel she is entitled to know - but can't find out due to her father's lifestyle - I got right back to her with a text including photos of her grandma's birth certificate, showing a middle name we never heard her use, and her WWII era social security application using a name she preferred.

I said nothing beyond that, asked no questions, thinking she will sort it out; she simply sent me "thank you very much."

So one mystery here seemed to be solved: the Guardianship application must have been coming from her, as everyone thought. I confess I had to squelch the little twinge of guilt/anxiety I started to feel for if/when the spouse found out I'd helped daughter with the process! But I thought, after all, she just asked me for the kind of timeless information any Aunt should provide, right? Wanting not to be BLAMED was a silly feeling, I told myself.

Then this morning I missed a text informing me that her father has died in the early hours today.

So all this legal b.s. has become a moot point, and thankfully, I didn't have to speak to the whole Guardian issue, one direction or the other.

But this is my last sibling gone, after a life spent abusing substances and everyone else in his FOO.
But still, I feel shocked, weepy and sad; all those icky feelings; most of all, I feel sad for them, and for the legacy his life stamped us all with. But at least I hope I'm out of the "ugly zone" now.

THANKS A THOUSAND, ALL!

Its OK to feel the feels. I'm sure there is some shock and relief and sadness and anger and frustration and all sorts of other stuff.
Just goes to show none of us knows what's next. Sounds like your niece was trying to do what was right.

Anyway happy there is absolute resolution for you.

Thanks for the update. You did what you could!

But this is my last sibling gone, after a life spent abusing substances and everyone else in his FOO.
But still, I feel shocked, weepy and sad; all those icky feelings; most of all, I feel sad for them, and for the legacy his life stamped us all with. But at least I hope I'm out of the "ugly zone" now.

I am sorry. There is a whole different level of emotions that come with a toxic person passing.

I’m sorry for your loss.

I'm sorry for your loss and all the stress and worry you've been put through.

i like what the first wife said a few posts up. no contact is no contact and no new hurts.

edited to add i just read the reat of the posts and see he has passed away . i am sorry for your loss.

[This message edited by Gottagetthrough at 11:06 PM, Wednesday, October 11th]

Thank you everyone for your kind condolences. You don't know how I appreciate every word!

Unfortunately, though, the "ugly zone" of my FOO has apparently been transmitted to the Next Generation (I'd always heard about the inter-generational transmission of dysfunctional patterns!) To this older daughter of my late brother, somehow I am STILL the person she needs to BLAME! She sent me a poison text with a photo of her father's urn as she was flying back home with his cremains and basically blasted me for not being the "strong" person she always pictured me as, because I didn't rise above whatEVER her father had done since her grandfather died in 2013 - and then added "which I don't want to know" - before she also stuck it to me for not "being there" for his widow, the step-mother who "never would have moved out East except to be with her husband's family" (that this same widow has never contacted in 10 years since our father died...) I kinda guessed where that comment came from...

Would you have responded to that Nastygram? I chose not to, because I felt I didn't need to add to her insane grief. But OMG, how to win over your Aunt who bore you no ill will? (Since when do families disintegrate over freaking text messages?)

That text has been sitting for days like a sliver under my thumbnail. Can't figure out which hurts worse: his daughter's verbal attack spouting about things she knows nothing of and clearly does NOT want to know, or the real plight of my brother's widow, a dependent personality who banked everything she had (and she owned a business he 100% lived on, while carrying his "wastrel lifestyle" she basically enabled for 25 years!)

I know we do things for love we often later regret, but this woman spent decades putting up with his crap, and got rewarded by ending up alone in their mountain home, semi-handicapped, no children, maybe 70 years old. I hope she will somehow survive this loss. And despite not wanting to revisit all our FOO pain by seeing her after all these years, I do feel for her. Yet OMG I can't take on her burden: I fear if I were to offer to help her with anything practical, it will just engender more frequent demands, more intense guilt-inducing comments like the ones she's dumped on me in the past, and then - the worst - more of her calls to my H behind my back (thank you cell phones!) to plead with him for practical assistance at a moment's notice. Oooooh Noooooo...(For the reason we came to SI, this kind of behavior is a no-go boundary with me.)

Ironically, she should now be my intestate brother's next-of-kin instead of the daughter of his fist wife, who sought to get that Guardianship!

I'm staying NC, but it's waking me up, night after night. Maybe this is my way of grieving, but any suggestions or comments would really be appreciated. ❤️

I'm sorry you are having to go through this, and this comes from someone who has had to ghost members of my own FOO.

I saw this on FB this morning, and thought how appropriate it is in its simplicity when it deals with these kinds of toxic people:

Let people lose you.
Let people be wrong about you.
Learn to leave well enough alone.

Often, the greatest peace is not found in correcting others. It's found in correcting yourself, accepting the lessons, and knowing when to walk away.

-Morgan Richard Olivier

I’d keep your nose out of it. No good could come of it. Let them GoTo hell in their own way.