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Divorce/Separation :
WH giving up in favor of divorce

Topic is Sleeping.
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ChamomileTea ( Moderator #53574) posted at 8:02 AM on Sunday, July 2nd, 2023

...he started talking about how we had had good times and there were good things in our marriage but that we also had been unhappy at times and he was probably more unhappy than he thought. He started enumerating all of the things he thought I did poorly — that I wasn’t very affectionate, that I was too critical, that I complained too much. He said he told his therapist I treated him like a "punching bag."

I hate to be the voice of cynicism and supposition, but there's something about this guy which has my hackles up. I can't quite put my finger on it, but are you sure he's not still cheating? Maybe it's not with the OW he got in trouble with. Maybe he's had more than one on the go? He just sounds like a guy with a pull string on the back of his neck and some OW's divorce strategy coming out his mouth.

It's normal for WS's to rewrite the marital history. What's not quite as normal is for them to throw in the towel without lining up a soft place to land. Anything's possible of course, but there's a whiff here that has me wondering.

BW: 2004(online EAs), 2014 (multiple PAs)
Married 40 years; in R with fWH for 8

posts: 7061   ·   registered: Jun. 8th, 2016   ·   location: U.S.
id 8797882
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The1stWife ( Guide #58832) posted at 12:16 PM on Sunday, July 2nd, 2023

Excellent point ChamomileTea.

I wonder if he’s not seeing someone new and thinking she’s the answer to his problems.

He’s certainly behaving like my H during his affair (wherein he planned to D me). The marriage was terrible, he’s been "unhappy for years", I don’t love him blah blah blah.

Typical predictable cheater behavior. How sad that with the legal trouble and career consequences he is just throwing away the one person who is willing to support him.

🤦‍♂️ SMH

Survived two affairs and brink of Divorce. Happily reconciled. 10 years out from Dday. Reconciliation takes two committed people to be successful.

posts: 13967   ·   registered: May. 19th, 2017
id 8797899
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HellFire ( member #59305) posted at 5:17 PM on Sunday, July 2nd, 2023

Honestly, I think you need to consider that this situation didn't play out as he said. I think this wasn't his second time cheating. All the bullshit he's spewing about lack of affection and happiness, etc,is a common thing ws say when they've been cheating for awhile. I think this latest was a full blown affair,and her husband found out, and she said he forced her to save her marriage.

Or..he forced her.

Our field of dreams,engulfed in fire..and I'll still see it,till the day I die..

posts: 6762   ·   registered: Jun. 20th, 2017   ·   location: The Midwest
id 8797915
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 Fold123 (original poster member #83366) posted at 8:53 PM on Sunday, July 2nd, 2023

Owning It: Thanks for your reply.

Yep, he is turning it all around and it is confusing. I think there are a lot of mixed messages as I am sure he is truly feeling a lot of mixed emotions. Same as me. And for him it may be easier to be angry, get angry, try to get me angry, then to deal with feeling sad, in pain, or that he just deeply hurt so many people.

I think he feels regret, and likely remorse. But the regret is more along the lines of getting caught and hurting me, while his remorse is focused on himself -- the self pity, the victim clinging.

Through all of this it is just crystal clear each day that he is only interested in putting himself first, whether that causes further harm to his family or not.

posts: 271   ·   registered: May. 19th, 2023
id 8797932
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 Fold123 (original poster member #83366) posted at 9:00 PM on Sunday, July 2nd, 2023

Chamomile: It is a good point that you bring up.

I know he is not in contact with the OW. It has been directed by leadership not to be in touch with her or others from their office. When I had access to his emails/cell, I monitored everything and there was no outreach to anyone other than friends and family. I also do not think there is another person in the picture. He is at his temp office during the day and home every evening and night. We trade off kid activities in spare time and on weekends. He is not off running errands for hours or coming back late or anything along those lines. Could he be? Yes. But I do not think he is.

I am presuming that either he has other affair skeletons deep in the closet he is trying to rationalize away by telling me now that he was not happy in our marriage and I did XYZ wrong. Or he is trying to justify the single affair and the guilt he feels. Or he is just deflecting, blame shifting, changing the story because he wants to feel another emotion besides the guilt and doesn't want to see me sad and upset...its easier some way to see me angry perhaps.

I know he realizes he went too far the other night because he has been very calm and much more kind to me yesterday and today. I have not brought it up nor has he. We have the MC session tomorrow so will see how that goes, though it is just intake so may be background only.

posts: 271   ·   registered: May. 19th, 2023
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 Fold123 (original poster member #83366) posted at 9:04 PM on Sunday, July 2nd, 2023

1st: Yeah, I see how it could seem that way but I do not think he is dating. He wasn't really a serial dater in his past and he is not a SA so I don't think he is just jumping into something, anything as fast as can be. At least while the kids and I are still in the same home with him and I know his whereabouts. Maybe once we are gone he will. He said the other day that he had no interest in dating anybody, but lots of time on your own makes people lonely so when we are across the country and the ink is drying on the decree and he realizes he has nobody to come home to and is alienated by former colleagues and perhaps some local friends he will jump back in. But for now I think there is no one else in the picture.

And yes, I totally agree. He has lost 90% of everything he has built, we have built -- career, reputation, finances, stability, social circle, community, philanthropic network, perhaps his freedom -- and he is willing to walk away from the family, all that was left. Again, I knew that he would choose the easy way out, and I also knew that there was no way I would stay in the marriage. But it smarts and hurts that he seemingly so easily came to the conclusion. I know it is messed up, but some false R would have felt a little nice maybe, you know? In a totally unhealthy way.

posts: 271   ·   registered: May. 19th, 2023
id 8797935
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 Fold123 (original poster member #83366) posted at 9:15 PM on Sunday, July 2nd, 2023

HellFire: Yes, I have my hunches that there have likely been others. He continues to say no, swears on the kids, says he will take a hundred polys while he can. Maybe he is being truthful, maybe not. I don't know and I won't know and in the end, it doesn't matter anyway. Because he is a liar and a cheater, and it doesn't change that even if he lied and cheated more than he is letting on, you know?

There are many theories why she told her husband or he found out. She is a liar and cheater too and my hunch is that she was found out or confessed and to save her marriage and save her career (as she would be on the hook for all of the career-ending infractions same as him if she had not claimed victim status) she lied to authorities. She is a liar and he is a liar. Match made in heaven, save for the whole pesky married to other people with young kids thing. Her husband also tried to extort him (phone call when all of this was coming down), so it could be a set up, probably not, but its an oddity. She also could have been SA or thought she was in hindsight or is claiming it to give her a reason to explain away to herself or her husband what she did. While I have no reason to believe him I still do not think he SA her. It sounds extremely consensual. I have heard the recounting and it is the same story he told me, my parents, his trusted confidantes, a chaplain, his attorneys, and (his claim as I was not there) his therapists. I have seen his laptop search history (he does not know) where he was searching for wrongly accused support groups, articles on facing false allegations and the like. Is it real evidence? No. But he is not smart enough to "plant" info TBH. And... They had sex a couple times that night, he recounted jokes she had made during the night, I have seen the texts from her the week after inviting him to dinner, joking about how they didn't have to go to the gym that week, plus I saw her a few weeks after the incident when she came over to us at a restaurant at least x4 times, hugging/chatting/praising him to me. Doesn't add up to someone who was SA or coerced unless she was playing it all up. But it also is just a theory, it doesn't matter because the genie is out of the bottle.

posts: 271   ·   registered: May. 19th, 2023
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The1stWife ( Guide #58832) posted at 1:35 AM on Monday, July 3rd, 2023

He may not be dating but he appears to have prospects.

My H had the same thought during our supposed R. It was hard. I was holding him accountable. He did not like it. And dday2 he told me he wanted a D b/c he didn’t believe it would work out.

Funny how when I finally had no choice and told him I was D him — he decides to beg me to R. Suddenly I’m the best thing ever and he’s completely committed to R.

Up until I told him I was D him — he was still seeing the OW.

In your case I would be suspicious that he’s got his eye on something else. He seems too quick to cut and run. I would keep my eyes open.

Survived two affairs and brink of Divorce. Happily reconciled. 10 years out from Dday. Reconciliation takes two committed people to be successful.

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Bigger ( Attaché #8354) posted at 2:48 AM on Monday, July 3rd, 2023

There are many theories why she told her husband or he found out.

Gently… something I have been warning you about from day 1…

One reason COULD be that your soon-to-be-ex-husband is actually guilty of the sexual assault charges…

I have seen SO MANY people before a judge for all sorts of crimes claiming and insisting, they were totally innocent… and yet getting time. Even when they have convinced themselves and their families that they did nothing wrong.

Look – you say the investigation can take a year…

Why? That’s a long time if this is "only" two consenting military people having an affair. The misconduct part has been confessed to and doesn’t really need much more investigation. They are both saying there was sex. If this was "only" an issue of if he coerced her, then that’s word-against-word OR witness-statements, OR texts and messages. Things that can an investigator wants done in the first 30 days AND things that would become quite clear to the investigative team in the first days or weeks.

Witness-statements are like dairy-products: they have a use-by date. A witness recalling something that happened in the last 30 days is more reliable than one that recalls something from 3 months ago.

Could it be they are investigating his past? Not his first instance? Questioning other female servicemen that went through his station?

[This message edited by SI Staff at 2:49 AM, Monday, July 3rd]

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone." Epictetus

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 Fold123 (original poster member #83366) posted at 4:11 AM on Monday, July 3rd, 2023

1st wife: I’m so sorry your WH did that to you. It’s another layer of betrayal and so unfair :(

He could have somebody he is considering or otherwise. It is a possibility of course. But I don’t think he is. And really whether he does or doesn’t or if he jumps into a relationship or is single forever just isn’t going to be my business once I’m gone.

posts: 271   ·   registered: May. 19th, 2023
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 Fold123 (original poster member #83366) posted at 4:20 AM on Monday, July 3rd, 2023

Bigger: I hear you. It is of course a possibility that he did assault her, and is lying about all of it. Her words, actions and behaviors after the incident don’t match with that, however. It’s out of anyone’s control except for the investigators and potentially the court.

Investigations in the military are a totally different animal than in the civilian world. There are a lot of nuances and additional steps and processes that don’t exist in "regular life." I know of somebody who dated, long term, a subordinate in an otherwise healthy, positive relationship. Another colleague found out and reported it and the investigation into whether or not the two were in a relationship took almost 2 years to conclude. So while it seems nuts the length of time this takes is very typical. In some ways it’s "good" because there is ample time for due diligence; and in other ways it’s of course bad because it will be a limbo situation for a very long time. But, soon it will not be my problem or concern (other than the financial and emotional impacts my children will experience depending on the final outcome).

I’m just trying to get through the next few weeks, get relocated and start to settle, far far away from him and this location we are in now. I cannot tell you how eager I am to leave.

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HellFire ( member #59305) posted at 3:03 PM on Monday, July 3rd, 2023

It's common for WSnto swear on their children,even when they're lying. And,of course, claim they'd take 100 polygraph tests..when he's been advised not to by his attorney.

It's also a slap in the face to tell their BS, after the decision has been made to divorce, that they aren't interested in dating anyone. Like..you certainly were interested in dating other people while married,but now that you're about to be single,suddenly that's no longer something you want.

Idiots. duh

Our field of dreams,engulfed in fire..and I'll still see it,till the day I die..

posts: 6762   ·   registered: Jun. 20th, 2017   ·   location: The Midwest
id 8797990
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 Fold123 (original poster member #83366) posted at 5:21 PM on Monday, July 3rd, 2023

HellFire: You are spot on as usual. He is showing me he is a typical cheating idiot. I know all of us must feel this way, but it can suddenly hit so hard how the person you thought your spouse was just doesn't exist any more, turning on a dime. It can be so stunning a feeling to wash over you, multiple times a day. And while I vacillate through anger/sadness/fear/bargaining, I still feel a lot of wistfulness for what we had and had built, and deeply damaged and hurt by all I am losing.

posts: 271   ·   registered: May. 19th, 2023
id 8798001
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The1stWife ( Guide #58832) posted at 7:29 PM on Monday, July 3rd, 2023

k

I know all of us must feel this way, but it can suddenly hit so hard how the person you thought your spouse was just doesn't exist any more, turning on a dime.

The above statement is so true Fold. It’s like your spouse becomes someone else.

My H would never be the guy you would expect to cheat. In fact when I told the first person — she told me I was crazy and imagining things. I finally had to tell her he admitted it on his own. Then she believed me.

I think you are doing the best thing for you & your kids. You are not waiting around and Hopi g he comes to his senses. You see the situation and made the best decision for you & kids. You won’t regret this decision b/c honestly, the other choice was to hang around in limbo. And you are wise to know when he said he doesn’t want to try, you cannot wait and hope one day he will change his mind.

Wishing you the best in your move to the west coast.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 7:28 PM, Wednesday, July 5th]

Survived two affairs and brink of Divorce. Happily reconciled. 10 years out from Dday. Reconciliation takes two committed people to be successful.

posts: 13967   ·   registered: May. 19th, 2017
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 Fold123 (original poster member #83366) posted at 7:52 PM on Monday, July 3rd, 2023

Thank you, 1st. You've been so supportive and I appreciate it.

I knew that he did not have it in him to try, to really try. And I knew I would never forgive him for what he did. Divorce is the only option. But, I am still struggling with him giving up so easily after creating so much turmoil, and I am mourning what we had.

I am having a hard time coming to grips that there is no more "we" and that I no longer have the safety, security, peace, or joy that comes from being in a marriage and having somebody supporting you and you supporting them. I feel incredibly exposed and vulnerable, knowing I will be forging ahead on my own with kids in tow far away. I am nervous about everything from how I will get a job that lets me manage kid logistics solo to how I will afford everything to how I will ever have any time to myself to make or see friends to how I will handle potentially being alone forever. I also feel like a gigantic failure, and have so much shame that my marriage is over, that it failed, that I failed. That my kids will suffer in visible and invisible ways, hopefully small but maybe big, and for years to come from what their dad has done to our family and their sense of stability. And the weight that all of this responsibility brings -- physical protection, financial stability, emotional health, all the caring and feeding of kids and pets, and just being "on" 24/7 working FT with kids FT. And I have many fears that I will remain broken, raw and untrusting of anyone because of the layers of betrayal he has cast upon me.

I have one more month of having to be here in this state and this house before we can go. Our airfare and hotel is booked, the house is mostly packed, and I just want to run from here and away from him. But at the same time, I know it will be leaving the security of having a partner, and it scares me to my core to know I will have to navigate all by myself.

posts: 271   ·   registered: May. 19th, 2023
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BearlyBreathing ( member #55075) posted at 9:38 PM on Monday, July 3rd, 2023

One thing that helped me was to realize that the safety I was losing— well I never really had it. I **thought** he was my safety and security, but he hadn’t been for a long time. With that I realized that I could and would be okay. Scared for sure, but it was only an illusion of safety that I was losing. And yes, you will have challenges. But most fears we have when we D don’t happen. Read the thread posted at the top of the S/D forum. It’s really true.

One day at a time— a month will be over before you know it.

Me: BS 57 (49 on d-day)Him: *who cares ;-) *. D-Day 8/15/2016 LTA. Kinda liking my new life :-)

**horrible typist, lots of edits to correct. :-/ **

posts: 6052   ·   registered: Sep. 10th, 2016   ·   location: Northern CA
id 8798022
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 Fold123 (original poster member #83366) posted at 4:41 PM on Tuesday, July 4th, 2023

Thanks, Bearly.

I am sorry you had the same nerve wracking feelings of being unprotected and unsafe when you experienced the end of your marriage. And that you persevered and realized he hadn’t been your safe space for awhile. I am really thinking about what you have said.

My WH is clearly no longer going to be a safety net and maybe he hadn’t been earlier. Certainly not the month before DDay when he was not keeping the physical, mental, and emotional safety of me safeguarded when he decided to sleep with his coworker. And now that he is claiming how unhappy he had been and how I have so many terrible traits, I suppose he didn’t have my back much then either.

We had the first couple counseling session yesterday and as some predicted here it didn’t go very well….

I expressed how though I agree our marriage couldn’t be repaired we still had a lot of good there and it was sad to me it was ending and that he was giving up. And he kept saying that if we both want to divorce it doesn’t matter whether he wanted to try or not. He doesn’t understand why I am hurt by his lack of trying. I don’t think he ever will and I suppose it doesn’t matter anyway. He said he didn’t want to do counseling because he would tell me that he had been unhappy and that he knew I would feel like he was blaming me for his affair and divorce. Which is exactly what it felt like ….. In the end we agreed to do one more session to talk about co-parenting and then stop.

posts: 271   ·   registered: May. 19th, 2023
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ChamomileTea ( Moderator #53574) posted at 6:17 PM on Tuesday, July 4th, 2023

He doesn’t understand why I am hurt by his lack of trying. I don’t think he ever will and I suppose it doesn’t matter anyway. He said he didn’t want to do counseling because he would tell me that he had been unhappy and that he knew I would feel like he was blaming me for his affair and divorce.

His unwillingness to try to make things right translates directly to his lack of remorse. He's not sorry. Not really. He feels like his actions were justified. When you boil it down, that's what he's saying when he gives you this kind of defensive nonsense. It's salt in the wound to know that someone has hurt you in the worst way possible and then doesn't even have the grace to really be sorry for it.

That's about him though, not about you. He's a sad, petty person who isn't going to learn anything from the dissolution of his family unit. As sad as you feel about it, you can't change that. It's who he is

BW: 2004(online EAs), 2014 (multiple PAs)
Married 40 years; in R with fWH for 8

posts: 7061   ·   registered: Jun. 8th, 2016   ·   location: U.S.
id 8798122
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 Fold123 (original poster member #83366) posted at 10:04 PM on Tuesday, July 4th, 2023

Chamomile: Thanks for your support.

It does feel, when it comes to the end of our marriage and his cheating, that he feels regret but not actual remorse. I do think, despite him repeatedly claiming otherwise, that he felt entitled to cheat. Because it was offered, because he works hard, because he was apparently unhappy in our marriage, because he did it before. Or if not entitled or justified, that he simply thought he could get away with it.

I do think (again he claims otherwise) he is blaming me and our marriage as the reason he decided to cheat, that cheating was a symptom and not the cause of the larger problem. But the bottom line is that the reason we had some hard times in our marriage was 100% due to me finding out he cheated the first time, many years ago. It impacted our intimate life, my trust for him, and it caused resentment (amongst other things that also caused some resentment, like being solo in multiple foreign countries with small children during a pandemic when he traveled nonstop). He told me yesterday after the session that I never forgave him for cheating, held a grudge that he cheated, and that "your entitlement to feel resentment is your problem." Um, hello? I am entitled to feel resentful that you crushed my heart (now twice), and the reason I was resentful was 100% because of his cheating. It is just infuriating. Another example of a lying cheater trying to convince himself, his betrayed spouse, and a therapist that it is all anyone's fault but his.

I know I won't walk away from this with an amicable relationship with him. It won't happen, I don't want to be friends, and we will limit our conversations to the kids. But I also don't want to leave this with boiling contempt and hatred either. I feel like he is just pushing me to the latter as it suits his "she is resentful and bitter and who can deal with that" take on things.

And despite all of this I am still so sad and hurt. I really loved him, at one time. Where did that person go?

posts: 271   ·   registered: May. 19th, 2023
id 8798150
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HellFire ( member #59305) posted at 10:17 PM on Tuesday, July 4th, 2023

The way she interacted with the 2 of you,after this incident,actually does make sense, if you change your perspective.

If she truly felt coerced..because he was an authority figure..maybe because he either implied her job,or position was shaky..or simply because he was in authority over her..and she felt powerless that night..then her walking over,and interacting with you,and talking about him,in ANY way, made her feel powerful..it would have made him extremely nervous that she was speaking to you. In that moment, SHE had the power,and he was powerless. It gave her a sense of control in that moment.

Yes..ok..he's told you about a joke she made about her husband that night..and he's told the same story a few times. That just means he's a decent liar, who sticks to his story.

Our field of dreams,engulfed in fire..and I'll still see it,till the day I die..

posts: 6762   ·   registered: Jun. 20th, 2017   ·   location: The Midwest
id 8798154
Topic is Sleeping.
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