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Divorce/Separation :
WH giving up in favor of divorce

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 Fold123 (original poster member #83366) posted at 4:51 PM on Saturday, June 24th, 2023

Thank you, Heartbreak. I can identify so much with your experience. So much.

I am so sorry you were betrayed and then blindsided. I can tell that this cut you to the core, and I am so sorry that you were left to keep wondering why and how and what if, to sort out what went wrong without him there to work through it with you. It’s not fair to be left with all of the pieces to sweep up from the messes he made. I am encouraged that you have been able to find some good perspectives through this painful experience - that you realized that the person he was cheating and ending your marriage was the true self, not the person you thought he was. And that of course none of this was your fault. If he does any work himself maybe he will come out better, but maybe he won’t. Good and bad for both, huh?

Knowing we wouldn’t recover helps me at least know that divorce was inevitable. And the right decision. Regardless of who said it first. But I do feel like me, the marriage, and our family unit was easily tossed away like a crumpled piece of trash. And it hurts. I know I have a lot of layers of pain to eventually work through: the infidelity, the fact I was friendly with the OW, losing friends and community, his decision not to try, his coldness and inability to show empathy in the aftermath as if I was the one who did this , and now having to start over at midlife alone with kids in tow.

I had a nightmare last night that I was stuck on a subway in a tunnel and my kids were in my our new apartment alone and crying and I couldn’t get to them. I’m in tears typing it because I am desperately afraid of going it alone.

posts: 271   ·   registered: May. 19th, 2023
id 8796757
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Beachgirl73 ( member #74764) posted at 5:00 PM on Saturday, June 24th, 2023

Fold,

I think it’s very common to fear the unknown, our futures, after we are on our own particularly if you are a natural worrier as I am. All I can say from my own experience is that none of my fears came true, and my life is much better alone.

You will get through this. You are doing amazing.

posts: 139   ·   registered: Jul. 3rd, 2020
id 8796758
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 Fold123 (original poster member #83366) posted at 6:03 PM on Sunday, June 25th, 2023

Thank you for the encouragement, Beach. I am so glad that aways out life is good for you. And your fears never manifested.

I know I must come off as massively needy in my posts. Its fear, pain, and shock all rolled together still. There is no choice but to keep trudging forward. That’s what moms do, right?

My WH agreed yesterday that we could benefit from a few sessions of counseling together: to try to finalize closure and my confusion, and talk about coparenting. I’m surprised but am hopeful we can get something out of it.

In other news I have signed a lease for an apartment on the opposite coast. The kids and I move in four weeks. Our temporary orders are being filed tomorrow and our attorneys are working on the final divorce agreement presently with intent to file by the end of the week. It has been a scant six weeks from DDay.

posts: 271   ·   registered: May. 19th, 2023
id 8796846
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Abalone123 ( member #82896) posted at 8:14 PM on Sunday, June 25th, 2023

I know I must come off as massively needy in my posts

Aren’t we all needy to a certain extent? I am still around pathetically clinging on to a sham of a marriage and a emotionally deficient spouse smile

Your life has taken a massive hit in a span of six weeks .You have faced another layer of betrayal from a spouse that has essentially given up after causing all this pain.

Give yourself grace to feel every emotion that you are feeling. I am six months out and in extreme grief. None of us signed up for this and the unfairness of the whole situation will bother you for some time.

The move will be good for you. You will see less of him and have fewer reminders of all the disappointments and hurt you associate with him. You will feel more in control of your life going forward.

Don’t let him get away with being less of a parent. There is no escaping there.

I feel optimistic for you. Good luck with the move. Take care of yourself !

[This message edited by Abalone123 at 8:14 PM, Sunday, June 25th]

posts: 284   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2023
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 Fold123 (original poster member #83366) posted at 10:51 PM on Monday, June 26th, 2023

Oh, Abalone. You are not pathetically clinging. You are trying, and so long as he is trying, then the good work continues. All of us on here are dealing with insufficiencies in our WS to a vast array of degrees. You know if nothing else that you are not alone in wanting to save your marriage, and that for the waywards who can commit to change having a happy marriage again is not out of the picture. I am keeping faith for you!

While I am not looking forward to this move in any way whatsoever, it will be a fresh start even if I am dreading it. I know that once I have the new place set up and the kids room unpacked and groceries in the fridge that it will start to feel like a new home. We have moved so frequently that I am used to lots of new places and setting. The kids too. Over the past few days I have made calls to five or six friends to fill them in. I have to since I will be leaving soon and because some of them live in the city or on the same coast where I am headed. It was painful to call but another step I suppose in accepting all of this. In every case, I was met with empathy, tears of support, and "what can I do." One friend was insistent on booking flights to come spend a long weekend the week my parents (who are coming out to stay for a week and help) head home. I know I will need it and while I hate accepting help, I recognize that when the dust settles, the divorce is final, the boxes are put away and its just me, and he's not just away on a business trip coming back someday to rejoin the family that I will need support putting myself back together.

While he won't be physically present, he will do calls and video calls and visit when he can. I know he loves the kids and he doesn't want to stop being a dad in any way. Maybe all of this will make him be a better father, more introspection, more time alone to really sit with what he has done to all of us and what the repercussions are. Or maybe not. Maybe he is just not cracked up to be a FT husband (or any time husband) and dad. And better he knows that now if that is the case. I know it will not be easy for him to get on the plane and come back to a half empty house with nobody here. But it is also all because of his decisions. And if this is the life that he wants to have then, yet again, he is getting what he wants.

posts: 271   ·   registered: May. 19th, 2023
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Blackbird25 ( member #82766) posted at 10:16 PM on Tuesday, June 27th, 2023

Fold,
Yesterday was the 6 month anniv from our Dday2 and predictably I’m an emotional hot mess. I cried when I read what you wrote about your friends - the offers to help, kind words, empathy, "what can I do". I just lost it. It just reminds me of how important my army family has been to me and how much I appreciate their support- during our time active duty and even now after retirement. Accept the help. Surround yourself with people who care about you. These are your people and who will help see you through to the other side of this. Yesterday I cried in my car on the way to my office - couldn’t figure out why until I looked at the date. 26th. Yep 6 months. My body is keeping score. We are trudging along - some days I’m so frustrated when he seems to not be working hard enough and then he’ll shock me by making great strides and progress. I wanted this for you - it just makes me so sad that he has just given up and is so willing to walk away. But as someone said earlier - this might be his greatest gift to you. Walking away so that you can see exactly who he is. We WANT our partner to fight for us, to do the hard work, to grind and hustle for the M and for the FAMILY. I know you said that you felt that the marriage wouldn’t survive anyway - but that he let it go so easily, that he gave up so easily, that he shows ZERO empathy when you are clearly in pain and struggling. He could do so much to help you process this pain but yet he shuts down and chooses to do nothing. I’m at a loss and struggle to comprehend how someone can be so cold towards someone THEY so egregiously harmed? This too is my journey - but my WH has been trying. For that I am grateful. I feel hopeful rather than hopeless. I am encouraged by the news of the new apartment! When you make it "your" home it will feel like a new beginning. Remember also - be kind to yourself. Your life has been turned upside down in the last 6 weeks. When the dust settles, it’s gonna hurt, you’ll grieve the losses - reach out, don’t suffer in silence. He didn’t deserve you - now you know.

Me: BS Him: WH, Married 1996
DDay#1: 5/2012 (EA 3 mos, PA 1 month
DDay#2: 12/26/22 (EA, 1 wk)
Reconciling and doing well.

posts: 195   ·   registered: Jan. 23rd, 2023   ·   location: USA
id 8797146
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 Fold123 (original poster member #83366) posted at 12:28 AM on Thursday, June 29th, 2023

Blackbird: thanks so much for sharing with me. It is so nice when close friends show up. I really have needed more of that and as hard as it is to retail the story each time, I have been fortunate to be met with encouragement. I know I am lucky for that. And I have really needed it since my local Circle, except for a few, I have been staying away. Understandably. But it still is painful.

I am so sorry that you had a really difficult day. Six months is a long time, and of course he would be a jumble of emotions on that specific date. I am encouraged that you and your husband continue to do good work to try to get reconciliation to be a permanent thing. I keep hearing that it can ebon flow, and it sounds like the majority of what he is doing is taking a step forward, even if there is a step back every now and then. I am glad that you are surprised in a good way to see some of the progress he has made and that you were making together. I really want us to work for you. I know you are such a good person and you have a huge heart, and you are showing your husband and yourself a lot of grace to see if you can forge a different path together. Please keep your chin up, stay focused, but realistic, and regardless, I hope that you find comfort in knowing that you are trying, trying trying.

I know inherently I deserved more than what I have been given. Both with the decision to cheat and the decision to not try. But despite knowing that, it doesn’t make the marriage ending too much easier. I am starting to mourn what we had and what I am already missing, and because it seemingly all changed overnight and I have the confusing messaging of "I love you and you’re worth fighting for but I can’t do it" it just haunts me right now. We have a marital counseling session next week for the first time. I am hopeful that we can do a few sessions, and I may be able to extract some more from him just to get a better sense of things, or at the least come away from it, knowing that I tried to be more understanding for him, and for myself, even if it’s another failure.

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HotPinkFlairPen ( new member #82968) posted at 3:07 AM on Thursday, June 29th, 2023

Oh, Fold.

I'm sorry for all your WH has put you through. His acknowledgement of his weakness and decision to step away must have your head spinning between pain and relief.

Here are the two things I want to remind you of. I have a feeling you'll need reminding, because we're kindred spirits and I get swept up in doubt. These two things are true and I hope you believe them in your darkest times:

1) You are only as needy as your unmet needs.

2) YOU. ARE. WORTH. FIGHTING. FOR.

BW, 34 years old, married 10 years. Twin sons born 2021.

Dday 1: 2/16/23. Dday 2: 3/16/23 (STBXWH tried to rekindle A, AP sent NC). Dday 3: 8/20/23 (new AP, same bulls***)

posts: 36   ·   registered: Feb. 27th, 2023   ·   location: Back to the US after 10ish years abroad
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 Fold123 (original poster member #83366) posted at 6:55 PM on Thursday, June 29th, 2023

Thank you, PinkFlair. I’m lucky to have you as the company to my misery. And I appreciate your encouragement. We both deserve more and are worthy of being fought for. Everyone on the forum is, whether they get their WS showing up or not.

Super hard day for me here. It’s my daughter’s birthday and we spent the morning celebrating at a theme park, will be doing presents and cake later today. Birthdays always make me wistful, and today is hitting really hard. This is the last holiday we will celebrate as a family. It’s the most time my WH and I have spent together since DDay. I’m trying hard to smile and enjoy her joy but have been crying all last night and all today. It’s just so incredibly sad to have the family broken. So many victims in all of this. Their world is drastically changing and they have no idea. I barely feel like I have an idea some days.

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emergent8 ( Guide #58189) posted at 7:29 PM on Thursday, June 29th, 2023

I'm so sorry Fold123.

I know inherently I deserved more than what I have been given. Both with the decision to cheat and the decision to not try. But despite knowing that, it doesn’t make the marriage ending too much easier. I am starting to mourn what we had and what I am already missing, and because it seemingly all changed overnight and I have the confusing messaging of "I love you and you’re worth fighting for but I can’t do it" it just haunts me right now.

It's not that he can't. It's that he wont. He isn't willing to try. Whether it was going to work or not, you absolutely deserve to have someone willing to fight and do whatever it takes to TRY to save it.

Me: BS. Him: WS.
D-Day: Feb 2017 (8 m PA with married COW).
Happily reconciled.

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Abalone123 ( member #82896) posted at 1:38 AM on Friday, June 30th, 2023

Happy birthday to your precious girl ! She has a strong mother, she is in good hands.

Sorry it’s a super hard day for you. You have been dealt a cruel hand , give yourself grace and grieve.
I want to give you lots of hugs and assure you that you are on the right path. You have nothing to fear. It helped me to live one day at a time and ending the day with gratitude for having made it through the day. Thinking of the future can be very daunting and scary, so focus on little things that are under your control.
Please take care of yourself.

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 Fold123 (original poster member #83366) posted at 1:47 AM on Friday, June 30th, 2023

Emergent: I appreciate your encouragement and the reminder. Thank you.

I know I deserve more. I do. I’m just trying to manage the finality that he isn’t going to give me or the kids or family what we deserve. It hurts, the truth. And it’s still incredibly jarring. It’s been 7 weeks. That’s all. To go from a high to such lows. I am "accepting" all of this change because I have no choice, because I have too much to do to reestablish stability, because moving thousands of miles away on my own with the kids is about as final as it gets. I am making the motions, saying the things, crossing off the tasks. My mind knows this is right, that I can’t trust him, that the marriage could never have recovered. But, cliche alert, my heart is grieving, it doesn’t get it, it keeps wanting, expecting, missing comfort and support and partnership from the person who broke it.

posts: 271   ·   registered: May. 19th, 2023
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 Fold123 (original poster member #83366) posted at 3:39 PM on Friday, June 30th, 2023

Abalone: Thank you for your helpful note. I am trying to just do what I can each day and focus but I have admittedly always struggled with living in the day to day. Planning and prep have helped me, historically, feel more secure about the unknown. But there is SO much uncertainty and unrest that even being productive -- about this move, about starting over, etc. -- is making me spin my wheels even if my hands are staying busy working on what needs to be done each day.

I appreciate you telling me you think it will all be OK, because I feel like I am drowning and it never will be. I have absolutely reached the sadness and staggering grief stage. I still feel a lot of shock and numbness, and I am still attempting to bargain though I know is is fruitless in every respect. I have anger too, but it is overwhelmingly sadness and fear that is ruling me right now.

posts: 271   ·   registered: May. 19th, 2023
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OwningItNow ( member #52288) posted at 1:27 PM on Saturday, July 1st, 2023

I'm so sorry, Fold. And I know the grief is so very overwhelming, but you are doing great. There is no way around trauma and loss--just through it. Keep reminding yourself of that, validating your right to grieve as needed. As my IC once said to me, "Nobody has ever actually cried themselves to death. The tears will stop when they are ready." How to survive the worst days? One hour at a time, if need be. You just plan out one hour of getting by at a time, and then you figure out the next hour when it comes. Be very, very kind and supportive of yourself. Don't chastise yourself for your sadness. You have a right to your feelings--all of them. It always feels better when I tell myself, "Of course you are sad. Be sad. This is hard stuff, OIN." It feels good when I have my own back.

You said several days ago:

He was never boastful or rude or talked down to anyone, but he enjoyed a certain level of privilege that came professionally. And he did have selfish tendencies — things we’d quibble over — he liked what he liked when he liked it and I guess that includes other cheaters, willing to gamble their families away. He probably felt he deserved to have sex with OW because she was willing and new and it was exciting, and because he worked hard and wanted some fun

And this reminded me of an article that I read years ago (in an actual, physical magazine, I think. Maybe Newsweek?) about men and success. They followed a law firm in Chicago as they wrapped up a big case. They ended up winning the case, and the authors interviewed the men (the article did not, to my memory, mention any women) and the way they processed and celebrated success--and how it always involved very extreme entitlements. The entire firm hosted a big party with drugs, alcohol, lavish food, expensive music, and escorts. Everyone was expected to participate. Many attorneys were interviewed and asked about wives and families, and they scoffed at the idea that they'd find out or that it mattered. These men oooooozed entitlement. "We have earned these rewards!" That is 100% the way they viewed it, and I recall that this was the article's point; it made me feel ill. I remember the article asked why men subconsciously held a notion that success entitled them to whatever they wanted, to break the rules, if only for a short time. (But who knows? Is it only for that one night? Do those feelings of entitlement permeate one's life?) The authors alluded to the idea that this mentality is found in many careers, not just law. Success = entitlement.

I see a connection to your WH. I do think success and the privileged treatment that comes with it breed an entitlement that leads to rule breaking, immorality, and selfishness, as was highlighted in that article. It does not have to lead to that, but those that remain grounded are most likely the exception rather than the rule. Look at what happens to celebrities? They struggle to stay humble. The world caters to them, and it changes them. They sometimes get weird because of it! If you happened to see the strange academy award nominated movie Triangle of Sadness last year, it mocked the world of the ultra wealthy and how they are so out of touch due to their privilege. When people treat you as if you are special, it changes how you see yourself.

I am NOT excusing your WH, just saying that he very well may have been caught up in new entitlements. And now he is paying the price. It will be "interesting," since I don't have a better word, to see if he learns and becomes his old self (if he is punished severely, he may learn from this) or if he clings to his new beliefs and stays the course that he is right and has done nothing wrong. If the latter, he'll continue to have professional and interpersonal issues...and a bumpy life. There is a lot of peace in working to be respectable rather than successful, not that they are mutually exclusive. But one thing I learned from this infidelity shit show is that liking myself and being proud of myself in the ways that nobody else knows or sees (I know who I am when nobody is looking) is very, very powerful. And peaceful. And nurturing. Yes, it does lead to success in many ways, but that isn't the goal. My approval of my imprint on this world is my goal, my spiritual legacy. I wish I had understood the value of this earlier, but at least I get it now. I hope your WH, for your kids' sake, figures it out too.

Stay strong. One day at a time.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 1:32 PM, Saturday, July 1st]

me: BS/WSh: WS/BS

Reject the rejector. Do not reject yourself.

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 Fold123 (original poster member #83366) posted at 3:34 PM on Saturday, July 1st, 2023

Owning It: thanks for your insightful message. And your support.

The article you mentioned is interesting and I am not surprised. Entitlement and special treatment brings with it, oftentimes, the idea that you are above the law or more deserving or will always be on a pedestal despite what you may do or not do that may be right. That could be his trapping here for my WH. He had loads of support at home and loads of support at work and was definitely used to having a lot done for him. I do wonder if he felt he "deserved" to step out or that he could just get away with it. I don’t know. Probably never will.

We talked last night after I’d been upset all day and it went so poorly. I was explaining that I was sad at things ending, going through the the firsts of the lasts, having boxes packed again. And that I felt like we were being abandoned, that he was eager not to have to face me in the house, that it hurt he didn’t want to try even if we both felt it could not be recovered from.

And then it got sideways — he started talking about how we had had good times and there were good things in our marriage but that we also had been unhappy at times and he was probably more unhappy than he thought. He started enumerating all of the things he thought I did poorly — that I wasn’t very affectionate, that I was too critical, that I complained too much. He said he told his therapist I treated him like a "punching bag." I was basically dumbfounded. I am a more critical thinker and more critical in nature but in my view it was balancing his tendency to be lazy and forgetful. And I told him that yes, I did complain at times to him bc that it was spouses do. Air their frustrations, and I had frustrations raising small kids often solo in multiple countries without support during the pandemic. I asked if he was suddenly unhappy and I was so terrible if that is why he cheated and he said he didn’t know. That it wasn’t planned and he had thought we could have had a happier marriage and he was sorry he didn’t do his part to make it better bc his decision to cheat destroyed it all. And he had the audacity to say that he would talk if I wanted to talk and it helped me but that he didnt want me to talk to just pick a fight or say something nasty. I told him that I didn’t intend to argue, that it didn’t matter because I have the right to be angry and have given him a lot of kindness during this, and that I would not have a conditional conversation with him where he dictated the topic and tone and if he felt uncomfortable he could shut it down. That’d it be better just not to talk from here on out. So it feels like he is flipping the script, looking to place blame, trying to explain away what he did. I don’t know. It hurts and it made me snap out of being sad and instead be angry. I don’t want to be bitter and resentful but his treatment of me last night makes me feel like he just doesn’t care about me at all, maybe hasn’t in a long time, and has no interest in how I struggle or not to move on. Maybe it matters, maybe it doesn’t.

Maybe I am having a revisionist history that we had a better marriage than we did. We have a first couples counseling session next week and I feel like there is no point.

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The1stWife ( Guide #58832) posted at 4:08 PM on Saturday, July 1st, 2023

Sad to say your H (STBXH) is acting like a typical cheater.

He’s blaming you.

He’s not willing to be honest.

He’s rewriting your marriage.

He has no remorse.

He is controlling what YOU need to discuss.

IMO I think the angry you is the better you in this situation. He no longer cares about anyone but himself. He’s the victim. He’s unhappy blah blah blah.

I doubt couples counseling will help at this point.

Put your energy into getting your kids and you to your new location. Your STBXH is not going to support you or help you. At this point he only wants to be away from taking responsibility for any of this. You know what they say "outta sight outta mind".

IMO you are wasting your time and energy in trying to resolve the issues or discuss. He wants a D. That’s all he is interested in.

How sad. You and kids deserve better.

Survived two affairs and brink of Divorce. Happily reconciled. 10 years out from Dday. Reconciliation takes two committed people to be successful.

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 Fold123 (original poster member #83366) posted at 5:12 PM on Saturday, July 1st, 2023

Thanks, 1st.

Yes, it seems like textbook lashing out to make himself feel better/justified in his terrible series of decisions.

Or maybe he is tired of seeing me upset because it makes him have to focus on what he did to me and our family, and is trying to make me angry on purpose so it is easier to say "she’s angry and has resentment, I can’t live with that."

Or maybe he was miserable all along.

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Abalone123 ( member #82896) posted at 5:48 PM on Saturday, July 1st, 2023

Fold, This is exactly what my husband did when his betrayal came to light. These people have the audacity to cheat but no courage to take ownership for their actions.

I don’t think you should do MC with him. It will be very traumatic for you. It made things worse for me. I refuse to indulge with someone who cannot speak the truth and cannot take ownership for their actions. I only do IC for myself now. My healing is my focus.

I had often told my WH I lose respect for my colleagues when they make mistakes and cover it up rather than own and apologize ( norm these days). It takes a lot of strength and security to be able to say I messed up, I am responsible. These people cannot do it, they are not capable of it.

At this point , you should not indulge with him in any conversation besides related to the moving logistics and kids. He will hamper your healing. You don’t need him of all people negating and rewriting your history when all you have given your marriage your best. My WH essentially erased 20 yrs of my love and commitment to our marriage just so he could escape taking blame and feel better about himself.


Please take care. All these reactions from him are further hit to your already beaten up spirit. You think you saw the worst of him and they can surprise you further. Don’t subject yourself to more. He is capable of easily moving on not caring about the devastation he left behind. You need to pick up the pieces.

Again, these dark times won’t last forever. You will find your light sooner or later.

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 Fold123 (original poster member #83366) posted at 7:00 PM on Saturday, July 1st, 2023

Thanks Abalone, as always for being here for me.

He does, has, apologized and taken blame. He was in tears yesterday too, along with me. I know he feels bad for hurting me and ruining so much. I just don’t know how he can acknowledge it, like once it’s said once or twice it doesn’t need to be referenced again. Or that it’s done and dusted and we should just keep moving on. And then shift to how our relationship was suddenly not good at all, how our marriage had problems, how I did so much wrong. He kept saying things last night like "you just want me to suffer, you’ll be happy when everyone knows everything" and "you don’t have to worry about what I’m thinking or feeling again, focus on yourself and not on whether I am changing or what I am doing." It’s just … rude? Mean. He accuses me of lashing out and making him a "punching bag" and then he says really nasty things to me. It’s like the hits just keep coming. He either just deeply hates me or is deflecting. And he seems clueless why I am sad that the marriage is ending, even though I knew it needed to.

I know we won’t leave this on a friendly, amicable note. But I also do to want to leave with deep bitterness and boiling contempt. Maybe I am expecting too much from him and also from me.

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OwningItNow ( member #52288) posted at 8:19 PM on Saturday, July 1st, 2023

Just wow.

The thing is, he is giving you all kinds of mixed messages, and I'm not sure any of us can make sense when that happens. Is that why they do it? Is that what they want, to muddy the picture?

He's very sorry.

But you were so critical.

He knows this is his fault.

But you didn't have a perfect M.

In my view, the "buts" indicate that the person doesn't really mean (or own) the first part. Your WH doesn't fully believe this is his fault. So he's not fully sorry. Or he wouldn't be adding these "buts."

He either just deeply hates me or is deflecting.

You know the answer to this. There is no evidence--nor has there been--that he hates you, well not until HE needed to find ways to justify HIS shitty choices. So if we just look at actions and not words, this is pure deflection on his part, deflection away from what he has done. Straight from The Cheater's Handbook. He cannot accept that 1. He is just this shitty of a person, so 2. He needs some justifications to make himself feel better. Yes, that makes you simply collateral damage to his self-esteem needs.

I am so sorry. He is crying for himself, not for you. He feels terrible for himself, not for you. "Poor me. I've messed my perfect life and image up. I'm such a fool!" You are not even in his teary-eyed thoughts (says me). And that is a massive character flaw and a reason to detach. He only saw the kids six days a month? I think time and distance will give you some clarity that he has not been the most generous, loving person even prior to the cheating. You loved him so didn't see it, but I think you will see a selfish pattern when you get more distance.

To me over here in the cheap seats, he sounds really, really self-focused and self-pitying and not remorseful at all. Yuck. I feel angry for you. Messing up and feeling sorry for yourself for the fallout is the ultimate in selfishness and emotional manipulation.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 8:30 PM, Saturday, July 1st]

me: BS/WSh: WS/BS

Reject the rejector. Do not reject yourself.

posts: 5877   ·   registered: Mar. 16th, 2016   ·   location: Midwest
id 8797822
Topic is Sleeping.
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