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Newest Member: JustCrushed

General :
Reflection (honestly a distraction)

Topic is Sleeping.
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 InkHulk (original poster member #80400) posted at 8:12 PM on Friday, May 19th, 2023

I’m super sad, and I’m taking Sisoon’s advice to let it go where it will while keeping myself safe. My mind likes to think abstractly, so I’m letting it. This thought came to mind and I hope it might help the community and those who come after me.

The advice to BS’s who deeply want to R to be willing to lose the marriage in order to save it is both true and completely counterproductive. Let a very recent hopium addict explain. If you tell someone who really really wants something that they can do something to get what they want, that is pretty much by definition a huge hit on the hopium pipe. Now fill in these paradoxical words, gotta be willing to give it up in order to get it back, and it doesn’t matter. All they hear is "I can get it back", which of course negates the way to actually get it back. There is no short cut around the well worn paths in our brains. For something this immensely huge, our lives, our love, we each need fully experiential learning. I’m not saying don’t give the advice, I’m sure there are faster learners than me, but for God’s sake please be patient as people walk thru this.

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

posts: 1526   ·   registered: Jun. 28th, 2022
id 8791724
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This0is0Fine ( member #72277) posted at 9:36 PM on Friday, May 19th, 2023

In my three year update, I explained my view of this advice. It is true but not useful. To receive the advice, you have to take the punishment that makes you willing to give up the M.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 9:37 PM, Friday, May 19th]

Love is not a measure of capacity for pain you are willing to endure for your partner.

posts: 2523   ·   registered: Dec. 11th, 2019
id 8791751
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RealityBlows ( member #41108) posted at 10:00 PM on Friday, May 19th, 2023

I think "give up the marriage" is more a metaphor for: "Stop doing all the work…stop doing the WS’s job…stop doing the heavy lifting" and more importantly, "don’t be a codependent helicopter spouse" let them do the work, take the test, learn the lessons.

Reconciliation isn’t just about fixing self and marriage, it’s also a demonstration of true remorse. If you’re constantly interfering, getting too involved with this demonstration, you’ll skew the data, unconsciously manipulate the outcome from its natural course, rather than stepping back and objectively observing your WS respond naturally, organically.

It’s hard when the adrenaline is pumping 24/7 and everything is on the line to take the relatively passive role in a coordinated effort, but you must. It’s especially hard for those of us who are doers, rescuers, persons of action. It’s agonizing to watch your WS consistently fucking it up when it seems so damned simple, common sense.

Also, taking too much of the active role can rappel a WS still in the bubble. You appear desperate, weak, pathetic. My wife said, down the road, that she couldn’t believe I wanted to reconcile. Said she would have divorced me on spot if I had done to her what she did to me. Said she lost a little respect for me during that phase after D-day. Said she expected and would have respected more anger, not desperation. Desperation is extremely unattractive, especially when THEY’RE the ones who should be desperately trying to save the marriage.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 10:10 PM, Friday, May 19th]

posts: 1289   ·   registered: Oct. 25th, 2013
id 8791757
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 InkHulk (original poster member #80400) posted at 10:06 PM on Friday, May 19th, 2023

Said she expected and would have respected more anger, not desperation.

If my twin comes back and says that to me after all this I will completely lose my shit.

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

posts: 1526   ·   registered: Jun. 28th, 2022
id 8791761
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This0is0Fine ( member #72277) posted at 10:11 PM on Friday, May 19th, 2023

More anger...

If my (STBXW) comes back and says that to me after all this I will completely lose my shit.

Day late and a dollar short with that anger. (sorry if it's not ok to sort of make dark jokes here).

Love is not a measure of capacity for pain you are willing to endure for your partner.

posts: 2523   ·   registered: Dec. 11th, 2019
id 8791763
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RealityBlows ( member #41108) posted at 10:12 PM on Friday, May 19th, 2023

Sorry, I edited my last post on top of your response. I have a bad habit of doing that.

posts: 1289   ·   registered: Oct. 25th, 2013
id 8791764
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RealityBlows ( member #41108) posted at 10:16 PM on Friday, May 19th, 2023

If my (STBXW) comes back and says that to me after all this I will completely lose my shit.

Not implying that anger was lacking in your case Ink, but it does lack in others hence the saying: "You’ve got to be prepared to lose the marriage…"

posts: 1289   ·   registered: Oct. 25th, 2013
id 8791766
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 InkHulk (original poster member #80400) posted at 10:19 PM on Friday, May 19th, 2023

Reflections on what I could have done differently will be left for another day.

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

posts: 1526   ·   registered: Jun. 28th, 2022
id 8791768
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 InkHulk (original poster member #80400) posted at 10:19 PM on Friday, May 19th, 2023

And fuck, that last post just made my WHOLE DAMN POINT!

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

posts: 1526   ·   registered: Jun. 28th, 2022
id 8791771
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 InkHulk (original poster member #80400) posted at 10:23 PM on Friday, May 19th, 2023

sorry if it's not ok to sort of make dark jokes here

I could post some dark humor memes (the ones with Stalin, you know the ones) but I don’t want to get banned.

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

posts: 1526   ·   registered: Jun. 28th, 2022
id 8791772
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RealityBlows ( member #41108) posted at 10:24 PM on Friday, May 19th, 2023

If you tell someone who really really wants something that they can do something to get what they want, that is pretty much by definition a huge hit on the hopium pipe.

It’s not about what you want, it’s about finding out what THEY WANT. What they really, really want.

posts: 1289   ·   registered: Oct. 25th, 2013
id 8791774
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 InkHulk (original poster member #80400) posted at 10:29 PM on Friday, May 19th, 2023

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

posts: 1526   ·   registered: Jun. 28th, 2022
id 8791775
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 InkHulk (original poster member #80400) posted at 10:29 PM on Friday, May 19th, 2023

Come on man, you walked right into that!

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

posts: 1526   ·   registered: Jun. 28th, 2022
id 8791776
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RealityBlows ( member #41108) posted at 11:05 PM on Friday, May 19th, 2023

LOL, that’s funny. I’m out on a mountain bike ride right now and just stopped for a snack and water and that damned song has been playing in my head since I posted that.

posts: 1289   ·   registered: Oct. 25th, 2013
id 8791782
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TheEnd ( member #72213) posted at 12:12 AM on Saturday, May 20th, 2023

My mind flooded with thoughts reading your post, Ink.

But I've edited myself.

I will say that I agree wholeheartedly when it comes to gentleness with Betrayed spouses. If only we could flip a switch and make all the "right" moves and protect ourselves from further disappointment, but that's not realistic.

The advice to deal with the person standing in front of you makes logical sense. But the truth is most of us have years, if not decades, of experience with our waywards. And that experience tells us there is a loving, good person there. The mind doesn't just throw that out with the trash and accept this new person. It makes no sense to us and rightly so. It hasn't been our experience so far. Besides, it's extremely painful.

I don't personally think you've made mistakes. You did what your heart and mind told you to do because that is who you are and the tools available to you at the time. Allow yourself the same grace you allowed your wife.

I think the "willing to lose it" really means that at some point you (universal you) need to start defining what you need and asking for it. Then be willing to call time when it's clear those expectations can't be met. If only these matters were as simple as that equation. They aren't and that's ok.

Most folks get there one way or another. Experience tells most of us that a hard line "figure it out or gtfo" tends to work quicker in shaking a wayward out of their bullshit but it's no guarantee. Besides, infidelity leaves you on the side of the road looking like a sad piece of roadkill - not exactly ideal for acting like a boss.

My therapist said to me once: part of self care is accepting where you are. Grace and kindness to yourself. You have not acted with malice or contempt. Most of us haven't. You acted from love and pain and trauma and hope. Not a thing wrong with any of that.

I'm sad for you and your family. You all have been on my mind all day. If it's any comfort, know that the folks here wish only what is best for you and yours.

posts: 544   ·   registered: Dec. 3rd, 2019
id 8791796
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 InkHulk (original poster member #80400) posted at 1:21 AM on Saturday, May 20th, 2023

I'm sad for you and your family. You all have been on my mind all day.

That truly moved me. Thank you

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

posts: 1526   ·   registered: Jun. 28th, 2022
id 8791803
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 InkHulk (original poster member #80400) posted at 2:31 AM on Saturday, May 20th, 2023

And then, of course, the further irony is that I am now earning a chance to get back something I no longer want.

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

posts: 1526   ·   registered: Jun. 28th, 2022
id 8791810
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WontBeFooledAgai ( member #72671) posted at 6:04 PM on Monday, May 22nd, 2023

RealityBlows:

I think "give up the marriage" is more a metaphor for: "Stop doing all the work…stop doing the WS’s job…stop doing the heavy lifting" and more importantly, "don’t be a codependent helicopter spouse" let them do the work, take the test, learn the lessons.

Reconciliation isn’t just about fixing self and marriage, it’s also a demonstration of true remorse. If you’re constantly interfering, getting too involved with this demonstration, you’ll skew the data, unconsciously manipulate the outcome from its natural course, rather than stepping back and objectively observing your WS respond naturally, organically.

It’s hard when the adrenaline is pumping 24/7 and everything is on the line to take the relatively passive role in a coordinated effort, but you must. It’s especially hard for those of us who are doers, rescuers, persons of action. It’s agonizing to watch your WS consistently fucking it up when it seems so damned simple, common sense.

Also, taking too much of the active role can rappel a WS still in the bubble. You appear desperate, weak, pathetic. My wife said, down the road, that she couldn’t believe I wanted to reconcile. Said she would have divorced me on spot if I had done to her what she did to me. Said she lost a little respect for me during that phase after D-day. Said she expected and would have respected more anger, not desperation. Desperation is extremely unattractive, especially when THEY’RE the ones who should be desperately trying to save the marriage.

You know RealityBlows, this may be a threadjack, but how your WW acted after her affair, would have been such a total mindfuck to me if I were in your position. As for myself, I did not R after I found out about the affair--the relationship was over by then. (I DID try to do the Pick-Me Dance as she was fading away from me though thinking it was all my faults, with predictably horrible results. By the end of the relationship but before the affair I was over it too). But in another universe, could I have seen myself at the time attempting R? Have I ever felt willing to bend over backwards to save a relationship since? Absolutely!

Your WW's actions being such a mindfuck to me, my breakdown.

1. She told you, on the one hand, to "get over" her affair as it wasn't a huge deal anyway it was just some journey of "finding herself", but then on the other hand, your willingness to try R was taken as proof by your WW that you were desperate, as she would never forgive you were the cards reversed. It--this alone--is actually Salem Witch Trial level right there!

2. She told you how much she wanted R and begged you for it, but then she changed her mind.

3. She did the crime to you, but YOU are the one who was being punished...by HER!

I read your story man, and I thought...'Damn....'

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 8:06 PM, Monday, May 22nd]

posts: 781   ·   registered: Jan. 26th, 2020
id 8792049
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Bor9455 ( member #72628) posted at 6:39 PM on Monday, May 22nd, 2023

I think the part about being willing to lose the marriage is really just about the dynamics of power in the relationship. The 1st Wife's story always resonates with me of an example of where she was fed up and done being married to someone who was going to continue cheating. She had spent some time after the first DDay doing some pick me type stuff (I'll let her tell it better than I could hope to) but at some point she decided that she was done and going to divorce him after he continued cheating. She talks about how after she made it clear she was done that it flipped the dynamic in their marriage. It unfortunately took her walking their marriage to a few inches from the "divorce cliff" for him to finally start doing the work that he should've been doing after the first DDay. The tables of power completely turned, suddenly she wanted a D and he was begging for R and he had the burden of proof on him to show her that he was R worthy and that R would be worth it for them.

I myself had a similar situation, albeit not as boss as her story, as being a MH is complicated at some point, my therapist noticed just how fixated on my wife's past infidelity (although I would learn it wasn't past but present as in on-going) when I was talking to him. Suddenly, after a rousing session of therapy, when we were alone, I finally began to confront her and tell her that she wasn't divorcing me and that I was going to actually divorce her and that I wanted to end our in-home separation and move it towards her getting her own place. Of course, defiant as my wife was and can still be, she agreed that she would start looking for a place and move out ASAP. Suddenly, a few hours later I'm getting the confession about how the EA from 2017 never really stopped and how it later in 2018 became a full blown PA. I was done with the shit and I was kicking my wife out and then she began to see some consequences. She started doing the work and has been doing the work since. At that moment, I was willing to kick her out and I was dead serious about it. The anger had come and it was moving me forward out of infidelity, I just didn't know that I was moving myself out as a BS and WS, I thought I was moving on as a WS only at that point. So while things are a bit more complicated for us MH, still the fundamental principles apply.

Myself - BH & WH - Born 1985 Her - BW & WW - Born 1986

D-Day for WW's EA - October 2017D-Day no it turned PA - February 01, 2020

posts: 646   ·   registered: Jan. 21st, 2020   ·   location: Miami
id 8792057
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Tanner ( Guide #72235) posted at 7:38 PM on Monday, May 22nd, 2023

And then, of course, the further irony is that I am now earning a chance to get back something I no longer want.

This was a real phase in the R journey for me. WTF did I fight for? Then I saw a quote here that said:

The thing is, I know I’d be ok without him. It’s the being ok WITH him that is taking work....

This is strait from the SI quote thread and it makes sense after the shock and fog lifts.

Dday Sept 7 2019 doing well in R BH M 32 years

posts: 3302   ·   registered: Dec. 5th, 2019   ·   location: Texas DFW
id 8792069
Topic is Sleeping.
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