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So, I've planted both feet into reconciliation and decided to work towards that.

Here's my issue of the moment: Everything my WH does annoys me! I get angry at things he does, or says. I know sometimes it's an overreaction on my part, but others...I just don't know. Is this something that happened to others? DD was 4 years ago but "removal of WH head from ass" was only 2 years ago. I try not to let it get to me, but I have to wonder if perhaps this was a dealbreaker for me and that's why I get angry. Since DD I have learned that I was in an essentially abusive relationship. I didn't realize it at the time but he would DARVO me almost every time I brought up something about how he made me feel, or how he hurt me in what he said or did. I understand now that it was a defensive mechanism so that he didn't have to deal with it and to shut me up.

Anyhow, I have learned to stand up for myself now and do not let him get away with it. He still stumbles in this but he is working on it and I can see improvement. I wonder if I am holding on to resentment about the past and his treatment of me. He has also said that when we discuss these things, he feels like nothing he does puts aside the past so we can move forward. I don't know how else I can tell him that just because he apologizes once, or twice, it doesn't erase the thousands of times he treated me badly.

Any advice would be appreciated, as this is not the kind of relationship I want.

Assuming you have worked through something like "Seven Principles" by Gottman, I would use whatever conflict resolution tools you have.

Don't bottle up your annoyance, talk about the issues. Is there a larger underlying issue? Is it still the A? Are they getting conflated?

You should be able to have these types of conversations with your H using share language. It should be you and him as a team against the identified issues (solving the solvable or coping with the perpetual).

It sounds like a lot of pent up resentment to me. While it's certainly understandable, I agree with you that that type of resentment is toxic and antithetical to true R.

I have no idea if it's something you can overcome but I imagine its not something that will go away without conscious deliberate intention and work on your part. For me, it was identifying it, naming the thoughts and feelings that went into it, and consciously making the decision to have a different thought. I wonder though, resentment tends to come from somewhere - has that part been adequately addressed? If so, why are you continuing to hold onto it?

Read Cheating in a Nutshell. It might help.

Resentment has definitely been high. And when I found out about the A I was even more livid about what I was enduring because I thought that the rest of my M was good so I just dealt with the disrespect. I now see that it was not something I should have allowed at all. I am still angry about what happened in our 30 year M because of him. He has admitted that the issues in our M before the infidelity were mostly because of him. Yes, I'm glad he admits it, but, at the same time, he still does not see it as abuse.

I know I have to work through my feelings and my immediate reactions. I should voice how I feel and take it from there, but I still resist because I still have that immediate feeling of "he will just try and turn it around on me and make it my fault". I know this is something I have to work through and that my feelings are valid and I should voice them, no matter his reaction. We are both conflict avoidant so it usually takes me days, and sometimes even weeks before I will bring something up.

I have read Cheating in a Nutshell and agree with what it says. This is why I wonder if it's just a dealbreaker for me and maybe I should move on. IDK. I still want to try and work through this because I know that some of these hang-ups are because I can't let certain things go. I believe that I see myself as the victim and hold that mentality. I am trying to stop that and just try to be happy. With or without him. I know that I need to shift my mentality on some of these things. But I don't always know when I have a valid complaint and when I should just "let it go". I have been gaslighted so many times by him that I still don't trust myself.

fournlau

So, I've planted both feet into reconciliation and decided to work towards that.

I don't know how else I can tell him that just because he apologizes once, or twice, it doesn't erase the thousands of times he treated me badly.

I read through your profile.

I am going to guess you are staying because of several possible factors.

Raising two kids by yourself

One income - if you are separated/divorced

Being alone

"Stockholm syndrome"

Hard to convince yourself no further chance for true happiness

Facing family and friends as a "divorcee"

Knowing only what you have posted regarding your husband - seems he has several personality deficiencies.

A touch (if not more) of narcissism. Lack of respect for a wife. Moral integrity worse than a Tom alley cat.

For the love of (insert your favorite diety) - how did you not stifle the urge to strangle him when he asked you to translate the "love letter?" That is absolute total ghastly lack of respect for you - the mother of his children.

I would plot a course towards a path that in the future will diverge from whatever path your husband is on.

Get tested for everything STD related. See legal counsel for what life would be like if you walk that separate path.

Get some education and look towards a better job so you can earn $$ to get yourself in a better situation financially.

Reconciliation is TWO people working together. Is he? Your words, at best, say "iffy."

You have a lifetime memory. It takes years to learn to live with infidelity. As you have read here (right?) many people still struggle decades later.

Where will you be in 3 years? 5? 10?

edit to fix grammar

[This message edited by Hippo16 at 4:15 AM, Tuesday, November 29th]

I know I have to work through my feelings and my immediate reactions. I should voice how I feel and take it from there, but I still resist because I still have that immediate feeling of "he will just try and turn it around on me and make it my fault".

Two thoughts:

1) Can you change 'should' to 'want to'? For example, you could change 'I should raise issues when they come up, because that way they don't fester' to 'I want to raise issues when they come up, because that way they don't fester.'

2) To save yourself, your best bet is to test for DARVO, test, and test again. If you raise an issue, and he doesn't help you resolve it, R won't work, and you can dump him - you win, he loses. But what if you test and he steps up? That's win-win.

I'm not a fan of Cheating in a Nutshell. I believe there are no pat, one-size-fits-all answers for infidelity. Perhaps more important, I think the authors draw conclusions that the data don't support.

My reco is, as always, focus on figuring out what you want and - if you want R - on how likley to your partner is to work for R. It looks like you're getting there.

The work you're doing is very difficult. A pat on your back from yourself may be a Good Thing for you to do....

DD was 4 years ago but "removal of WH head from ass" was only 2 years ago. I try not to let it get to me, but I have to wonder if perhaps this was a dealbreaker for me and that's why I get angry.

I know, at least for me, a lot of the anger/resentments I had were displaced. I was angry at myself for not taking positive steps to get out of infidelity sooner. I could imagine that in the two years that it took for your WH to get his head out of his ass, you swallowed a lot of self-respect....as many of us do.

We never should have been put in that situation to begin with. Maybe that is also a continuing sticking point.

I have read your background and honestly, I'm not surprised at your reactions to him. He was so cruel and horrible to you for the majority of your life together. I suppose you could say that "at least he didn't lie", but that doesn't change what he did. I'm sure you are also a bit mad at yourself for allowing him to treat you that way.

I'm sure you have a lot of resentment for the past. Anyone would and there's nothing wrong with that. For you, I would suggest you work towards letting go of the resentment towards him (easier said than done) and definitely let go of any anger you feel towards yourself. I know I had anger towards myself for allowing me to be treated badly, but I didn't see it for what it was as it was happening. Be kind to yourself.

My ex used to DARVO me all the time. I finally had enough and started voicing how I felt. If I was angry, sad, disappointment, etc. I wouldn't hold it in. He could either be supportive or not. If not, then I would know that he wasn't a safe partner and it was time to move on.

He tried, but after years upon years of being treated badly, I was done. Yes, I felt guilty because I could see he was actively making changes, but sometimes it really is just too late.

Make the right choice for you. Start by speaking up. The sooner you do, the better you'll feel.

[This message edited by BeingNaive at 4:16 PM, Wednesday, November 30th]

Hippo16

I was very young when "Panama" and the aftermath happened. Looking back on it now, I think I was in Freeze mode because I didn't know what to do. I let him rugsweep it. I suppose because it was too painful to actually deal with. So I rugswept as well and it came back to bite me in the ass of course. I also realized, after DD that I put a shield around my heart at that time so that he could never hurt me like that again. It didn't work though. All it did was keep him at a bit of a distance. I did tell myself if he began treating me like he did back then, I was out!

sisoon

1) Can you change 'should' to 'want to'? For example, you could change 'I should raise issues when they come up, because that way they don't fester' to 'I want to raise issues when they come up, because that way they don't fester.'

2) To save yourself, your best bet is to test for DARVO, test, and test again. If you raise an issue, and he doesn't help you resolve it, R won't work, and you can dump him - you win, he loses. But what if you test and he steps up? That's win-win.

This is something I know I NEED to do. It's hard. Made harder because I know that he will not raise any issues unless it's an issue he has with me or my behavior. He doesn't seem to have an issue talking to me about something he thinks I need to work on. But I suppose I don't always raise issues where I am in the wrong either Finding the time to do it is also difficult. He works overnight. He comes home around 7:30am and stays up for a couple of hours. However, I am NOT a morning person and don't feel like having a heavy convo in the morning. Unfortunately, by the time I'm ready (in my headspace) he's asleep and only wakes up in time to get ready and walk out the door to work. On his days off we usually have some family time scheduled so it becomes difficult to find the time there too. And of course, like I said, it's hard to start those conversations. I never know how to do it in a good way. Ugh!!

jb3199

I know, at least for me, a lot of the anger/resentments I had were displaced. I was angry at myself for not taking positive steps to get out of infidelity sooner. I could imagine that in the two years that it took for your WH to get his head out of his ass, you swallowed a lot of self-respect....as many of us do.

We never should have been put in that situation to begin with. Maybe that is also a continuing sticking point.

I do still have a lot of anger and resentment. And here's the thing, he is making changes. Sometimes he backslides but he can now catch himself and make it right most of the time. So, my anger is partly because obviously since he can make these changes now, he was always capable of making them. He could have been a better H at any time. He could have treated me with respect at any time. He chose not to! And for him, he just wants to move on because there is nothing he can do to change the past. But, we both see our past in completely different context and perspectives. It's easy for him to "move on" because he wasn't the one that was being gaslit, or DARVO'd. He wasn't the one that was being abused! I was! So it's much more difficult for me to "move on" and let him off the hook for all those years.

BeingNaive

I have read your background and honestly, I'm not surprised at your reactions to him. He was so cruel and horrible to you for the majority of your life together. I suppose you could say that "at least he didn't lie", but that doesn't change what he did. I'm sure you are also a bit mad at yourself for allowing him to treat you that way.

I'm sure you have a lot of resentment for the past. Anyone would and there's nothing wrong with that. For you, I would suggest you work towards letting go of the resentment towards him (easier said than done) and definitely let go of any anger you feel towards yourself. I know I had anger towards myself for allowing me to be treated badly, but I didn't see it for what it was as it was happening. Be kind to yourself.

My ex used to DARVO me all the time. I finally had enough and started voicing how I felt. If I was angry, sad, disappointment, etc. I wouldn't hold it in. He could either be supportive or not. If not, then I would know that he wasn't a safe partner and it was time to move on.

He tried, but after years upon years of being treated badly, I was done. Yes, I felt guilty because I could see he was actively making changes, but sometimes it really is just too late.

Make the right choice for you. Start by speaking up. The sooner you do, the better you'll feel.

I had to quote your entire response because I think this gets the closest to how I'm feeling at the moment. Yes he treated me without respect and DARVO'd me for most of our M. Yes I didn't see it when I was in it. So yes, I am angry that I let it happen! How could I have been so blind? How could I let him convince me that I was just "taking it too personally"? How could I let him turn it around on me and make me think that what I feel is "wrong" or "not important"? How could I have been so STUPID?

How do I let go of that? Let go of knowing that he was always capable of changing but chose not to until HIS world came crumbling down? Why wasn't I important enough before? Why wasn't our family important enough before? Also, how could I have let him get away with being so damned selfish throughout our entire M? What is wrong with ME?

I suppose I don't really know what is the right choice for me. Even now. I feel like I have to detangle my life and I'm still pulling on some strings. I'm not ready to leave this M and it isn't because I want to give him time to make changes, it's because I still don't know who I am if I'm not his WIFE. If that makes sense? I made him the center of the Family, the center of MYlife. We did what he wanted, bought what he wanted, went where he wanted. It was all about HIM! I'm still finding myself.

Yes I didn't see it when I was in it. So yes, I am angry that I let it happen! How could I have been so blind? How could I let him convince me that I was just "taking it too personally"? How could I let him turn it around on me and make me think that what I feel is "wrong" or "not important"? How could I have been so STUPID?

I thought about that for a long time and even almost 3yrs later, I still sometimes feel this way. However, I've come to realize that it was because I loved him and assumed he wasn't trying to be cruel. I thought that he just didn't understand my point of view so to him it was "wrong" and I know I am a sensitive person so maybe I really was just taking everything too personally.

Now, I see how I was perfectly ok feeling how I felt. That just because someone else doesn't see or feel it doesn't mean it's wrong. I simply gave him too much credit and made excuses because he claimed to love me.

How do I let go of that? Let go of knowing that he was always capable of changing but chose not to until HIS world came crumbling down? Why wasn't I important enough before? Why wasn't our family important enough before? Also, how could I have let him get away with being so damned selfish throughout our entire M? What is wrong with ME?

I actually asked him why he was willing to change now and not before, when he knew things were bad. His answer didn't help me, but I'll share what he said. He didn't realize just how badly I felt every day, that he wasn't trying to manipulate me into not talking but he was trying to show how badly he was hurting, that he just didn't see what was happening. Do I believe him? I think I do. Does it change anything? Not for me. It still happened. I still feel that way.

There is nothing wrong with you. When we love people we tend to extend them more grace and understanding than they sometimes deserve. We sometimes forget that we need to do the same for ourselves. Forgive yourself for not seeing it then. You see it now. You can change things now and be more aware in the future.

I'm not ready to leave this M and it isn't because I want to give him time to make changes, it's because I still don't know who I am if I'm not his WIFE. If that makes sense? I made him the center of the Family, the center of MYlife. We did what he wanted, bought what he wanted, went where he wanted. It was all about HIM! I'm still finding myself.

It makes complete sense. My marriage was the exact same way because doing something he didn't like resulted in an unpleasant day. Something as simple as having to wait in line too long just ruined the entire experience so I learned to just say "the line is too long. We can do something else", which turned into doing something he wanted. I constantly adjusted to his mood so that we wouldn't fight. I find myself still making excuses not to do things because I hear him saying "that just doesn't make sense, it's a waste of time and money, why would you want to do that?" It will take a bit of time, but you will figure out who you are. Right now, the first step is speaking up and not backing down. It'll take time and practice, but it is so worth it!

I thought about that for a long time and even almost 3yrs later, I still sometimes feel this way. However, I've come to realize that it was because I loved him and assumed he wasn't trying to be cruel. I thought that he just didn't understand my point of view so to him it was "wrong" and I know I am a sensitive person so maybe I really was just taking everything too personally.

I think this is right. I assumed that he wasn't being malicious, that he truly felt that way and that I was being too sensitive as well. I gave him the benefit of the doubt because there are always 2 sides to everything. I literally began to think about how he would view something before I brought it up and would a lot of times not bring it up because I would convince myself that I was taking it too personally and no need to get into an argument if I was in the wrong anyway...

It has taken a long time but when he pushed back on my feelings (after DD) and tried to DARVO, I let him have it! I made it clear to him that even if he thought I was "wrong" in what I was feeling, it didn't negate that I FELT it. That even though he "didn't mean to hurt me" with what he said or did, did not negate the fact that he DID! He would never apologize because he didn't think he should since he hadn't MEANT to make me feel a certain way. Whereas IMO, if I say or do something that hurts someone else, even if that was NOT my intention, I apologize! It's just what you DO! He is much more receptive of this now. He has learned that he does NOT have to agree with my assessment, he just has to acknowledge and validate my feelings.

I actually asked him why he was willing to change now and not before, when he knew things were bad.

I did as well. My WH's answer was different. He didn't change because it was working for him. He was the center of attention and if I brought something up, he did what he could to "shut me up" (though he didn't phrase it like that, but lets be real, that's exactly what he was trying to do), so that he didn't have to talk about it! He has since acknowledged that most of our M problems were because of him. I have to 100% agree! He berates himself for not changing sooner and seeing how negatively his selfishness and treatment of me affected me and the M. He has also since admitted that when we are discussing something that he doesn't want to talk about (even now) he will say something he knows will upset me and take the "discussion" off the rails! Even before he admitted this I had figured it out and stopped taking the bait! Which is perhaps why he admitted it in the first place I guess.

There is nothing wrong with you. When we love people we tend to extend them more grace and understanding than they sometimes deserve. We sometimes forget that we need to do the same for ourselves. Forgive yourself for not seeing it then. You see it now. You can change things now and be more aware in the future.

I really appreciate this because it is very hard to forgive myself. It is very hard to look back and clearly see what an ASS he was and that I let him get away with it! It is hardest to realize that I also let him bully our children sometimes and I just stood by and did nothing! I feel like a failure as a mother because I was too scared to jump in and protect them! This happened a handful of times, but it did happen. Mostly with DS1. I did start to push back on this before the A happened, but some damage had already been done. I have spoken to DS1 about some of these things and apologized for not being the mother he needed at that time.

It makes complete sense. My marriage was the exact same way because doing something he didn't like resulted in an unpleasant day.

YES! This exactly! If I was angry or upset I usually took it out on the dishes! I would hard core clean and that was a signal that I was unhappy, lol. But when he was angry or upset, he would take it out on us! Words mostly, but we all know that words do hurt considerably! We tiptoed around certain things etc. Our kids (we have 5) at a certain point even stopped asking him to attend their activities because they realized that he always had an excuse as to why he couldn't go. His relationship with them is fine, but it's mostly through me that he has it. I finally told him that I was NOT his conduit and if he wanted a closer relationship that he had to step up. So far, nothing. But he remains "in the loop" simply because I talk to ALL of my kids, including the ones no longer living in the house.

It is incredibly difficult to extract myself from this "relationship" and try and figure out who I am on my own! I am learning about myself everyday. Some of it is good, some of it is familiar, and some of it is bad. But I am trying to be better at every turn and try to find some happiness!

Anyway, thank you for your time and words of understanding. It feels good to know others feel the way I do and I'm not crazy, stupid, or alone!