SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

VezfromTaz, It’s sadly comical from this distance that we would actually ask our WHs if they are gaslighting us and then buy their answer, isn’t it? Truly amazing how hard we fight to keep the illusion of that constructed reality, but then, I think I was always the one fighting for it.

Thanks for the book rec. I picked up an e-copy of it this afternoon. And yeah, I hate that I still spend time trying to dig through the anatomy of betrayal and inoculate against it. But the company is great. :-)

Strength to everyone and especially to you,Sigyn, as you try to come to a decision.

Have been sorta away from SI for a bit, but long time member. Took my time reading thru your post and along with many here I am so sorry you are a part of this club that no one wants to be a part of, but I do agree with what you said in a previous post, SI is an amazing tool, truly amazing. The insight you get from so many is invaluable. The horrible agonizing pain you are going thru now can truly only be shared by those who have walked this long dark path. I hope you know that so many mean well when they post, it can be painful because you are still in shock, even at 2 months out. You will weave in and out of it for quite awhile, so I do agree that finding a way to concentrate on yourself (I know it is damn hard to do right now but we just keep saying it) find an outlet of some kind that allows you a breather, join an exercise class, find someone who maybe likes to go on walks or runs (if that is what you might like to do) join some weird class you always wanted to do, find a friend or 2 that you have not seen in awhile and go out for coffee or a lunch or just something, anything that gives you a moment to step out of the madness, cuz it will be there when you get back trust me. When we have been blindsided it is absolutely normal to try to figure out how the heck this all happened right under our noses, and you will find yourself swirling around whatever it is you think your WS may or may not do, how to manage it somehow and yet still sit there puzzled that this all took place around you and you did not see it. Trust me, we all have been there. That is exactly what infidelity is all about. The secret life, the lies, the manipulation for the WS to keep YOU and their secret life. He wanted you, trust me. But not in the healthy way you loved and wanted him. It is sad to say cuz I am not going to diminish your love for him because you were absolutely the best part of what he had, but you were also the shield, the ideal world he needed to hold up so that no one would figure out what he was doing behind EVERYONES back, not just yours.

My mind goes to how I still do not know how many years my WH did this behind my back, by the time I found out and now in hindsight I feel it was going on for a long long long time, I am smart very capable woman who raised 2 wonderful sons, it is part of the reason I logically convinced myself that I could manage it somehow, with you just being 2 months out.....gosh I was a complete mess, so that is why people are saying you are doing OK, even though you don't feel that way at all. You are at least listening, absorbing, taking what works and discarding some, that's all OK in you will knock out your own journey in this whole shitstorm.

15 years or more for all you know. Its just crazy making. The amount of money it took to keep up the charade, I am sure your attorney has suggested you look into all of your finances, credit cards, retirement accounts, etc.... just to see how possibly bad this got. Then as you said, the amount of sex he had whether it was protected or unprotected and then coming home to you and having sex as well....same happened to me, I did end up getting STD's that I somehow was in denial about "at that time" as I just could not wrap my head around it. Sadly I am admitting that, its embarrassing to talk about and it took awhile for me to be able to do so, like I said....just the whole rabbit hole of how bad it is just will make us crawl in a ball and moan with the pain of it.

So for that reason everyday will be a battle field, its REALLY hard to wrap around the fact that they come across as a "nice guy". I had this illusion (I know, stupid on my part) that I would just KNOW if I had a cheater, or a cheater would be really mean to me, or be a wife beater or a drug addict or something like that....nope. His mask he kept on for the world and also me was to show how NICE he was, I learned much later how CRUTIAL it was for him to look like the nice guy, he needed that. He has people at his work who LOVE him, think he is a great guy. "I" thought he was a great guy or what I imagined my life was that I felt it was all going along pretty well, until I found out and his whole mask came off. He also would never tell me the whole story or as many on here have talked about, how they DARVO around the whole thing and you come out never knowing anything or only as much as they will drip out. Shocker of shocks. For sure.

Anyway, you will do whatever it is you will do cuz you can only take this stuff minute by minute, day by day. Your eyes and brain will open more with time, I think the shock of it all puts us into some kind of "protection" mode where we can only digest so much, it just becomes too much for a BS to take in if they really did not know. I know others have said this and you understood it, he has had 15+ yrs on you and he knows the whole story, he knows who he is.... just be very careful as the "nice guy" you have had in front of you can change on a dime when he finally gets to a point where he realizes (truly realizes, he is in his own denial right now) that this whole thing is falling apart and not just that he lost his marriage but that his whole mask will be ripped off and how he portrays who he is to the outside world. Too many of us have seen it on here, a WS like yours and many others on here has kept this life, they LIKED IT, don't forget that, it is very much like a drug to them, like an addict he is no where near to understanding what this has done to you, he only wants to keep his "fix" and his lifestyle he had.

I just want to quote what Truthsetsmefree said below, pretty wise person along with many others on here:

So many of us who have been married to partners like your WH have been shocked at how we see things in retrospect. Not by just what our WSs did but more so by how stupid we later feel for not being able to see it. It all seems so obvious in hindsight. But that’s the value of NC. It doesn’t just break us free from all the shitty behavior….it breaks us free from all the "kind" and "nice" things that hid that shitty behavior. It’s why you sometimes just want your WH to hold and comfort you, to go back to that man you once believed him to be. That "nice guy" is the pain-killer, the numbing agent…the masker for the cancer that’s the actual source of the rot that lies beneath. MC is just another opportunity for him to hold the chloroform soaked rag to your face. And right now, it’s the only avenue he can find. To really put yourself in an advantageous position, it’s less a matter of fighting off the effects of the chloroform…and more a matter of showing him he can no longer coax you into meeting with him in dark alleys.

Its hard to hear I know but they use it and it has worked on us for many years, so he will keep going to it. I know as I lived thru it as well. So raising my hand sadly, been there, done that. Again so sorry you have to take this journey as well. Take care of yourself.

[This message edited by realitybites at 12:24 PM, Monday, October 31st]

weaponising your values is a common control tactic (oh, I thought you said you were a fair person, cared about our child, weren't materialistic, yardy ya). As is mutualising abuse once you do find your voice (false equivalency - eg. I know I had a double life and siphoned family money off, but you parked my car in that time and just asked for child support and said you wouldn't - so I guess we've both done things we said we wouldn't).

Yes! I've already seen so much of this from WH. He actually said something along the lines of: if he was the "bad guy" in our marriage, then why was he "the only one willing to go to marriage counseling"?

And the real answer is that it's because he's the only one unwilling to admit that he already burned the marriage to the ground and there's nothing left to counsel. I told him it was like bringing our dog's cremated ashes to the vet and asking the vet to treat him.

Yet he still wrote in his 'negotiation' email "Because I value the marriage and our son's wellbeing so much, I respectfully request that you agree to marriage counseling...." as if to imply that not wanting marriage counseling is akin to not valuing the marriage nor caring about our son.

I've written so many response emails in the last few days - none of them to be sent, just to get my emotions out! I can totally see WH later saying, about our marriage, "I saw other women and Sigyn refused counseling, so here we are..."

Doesn't that just get you, Sigyn? And how did he values the M by having multiple As? Always the victim and never the had guy.

I think my XWH moved out of state so he wouldn't have to tell people he had an A. He didn't want to file so he could say that I filed for D.

On your profile page, there's a place to journal if you want to rage-type there.

Sigyn you have the patience of a saint. It is he who is the false prophet, not you.

My rich, white, private school educated, greedy guts ex tried to convince me (throughout the relationship) that I was not the socialist, feminist I claimed to be. He worked for a union, whilst spending most of his day buying and selling shares (I could see his email). A few weeks after D Day I found a video on Facebook at him marching with his AP colleague (married to his boss) for International Women's Day. He was yelling passionately amongst the crowd so his voice echoed across the city - it was farcical honestly. He has now given up the game, abandoned the union and turned into the corporate cocksucker he always was (albeit still pretending to be poor so that I dont steal his treasure).

On a separate issue, one of my colleagues had a great line she used with her children, who would return from dad's having been exposed to problematic behaviour. She said something to them like "In this home, these are our values (whatever the relevant values were - for example, honesty)". I did say before out of all of the heartache at least you come to learn what you truly stand for as a person, as a mum.

[This message edited by VezfromTaz at 11:09 PM, Sunday, October 30th]

Yet he still wrote in his 'negotiation' email "Because I value the marriage and our son's wellbeing so much, I respectfully request that you agree to marriage counseling...." as if to imply that not wanting marriage counseling is akin to not valuing the marriage nor caring about our son.

That would've made my head explode.

You deserve a million bucks for resisting the urge to write back, "Because I value the marriage and our son's well-being so much, I never destroyed the marriage by introducing dozens of other sexual partners and spending joint finances on sex workers."

Or, "Because I'm not completely confused about the meaning of the word 'value,' I never did anything to compromise and destroy the marriage and intact family unit I claim to care about."

I mean, honestly. It's mind boggling that he doesn't understand what his actions look like.

And the real answer is that it's because he's the only one unwilling to admit that he already burned the marriage to the ground and there's nothing left to counsel. I told him it was like bringing our dog's cremated ashes to the vet and asking the vet to treat him.

This analogy describes the marriage being dead. That term helped me in IC. Instead of focusing on the word/concept of divorce, I came to understand the marriage is dead. There was no turning back for me. I had crossed over to a place where there was no returning from. I NEVER wanted to get divorced (as I'm sure no one does) so I just could not wrap my head around that and fought it so much. When I use the phrase the marriage is dead it changes the perspective. I have accepted the death of the marriage, but it has not been finally put to pasture yet. Similar to death, there are many stages. Take your time and keep walking the path you are on. It is cemented in your truth, loyalty, honor, and courage!

My intention is in no way to encourage you to do anything different than you are doing. I just wanted to share a phrase (death of the marriage in lieu of divorce) that helped me so much in going through the infidelity process.

Peace to you Sigyn! You are a shining light and we are all in your corner.

[This message edited by kiwilee at 2:45 AM, Monday, October 31st]

"Because I value the marriage and our son's wellbeing so much, I respectfully request that you agree to marriage counseling...." as if to imply that not wanting marriage counseling is akin to not valuing the marriage nor caring about our son.

False equivalency. Bam. Gaaah they are so predictable.

Slight t/j:

join some weird class you always wanted to do

I did this - I signed up for a beginner fencing class! Who doesn't want to learn to sword-fight? It was me and about 5 10-12 year olds! People looked at me like I'd grown an extra head when I mentioned it. I was terrible, I was out of shape, but I had fun, and surprisingly the instructor tried to encourage me to keep at it when my 8 sessions were finished.

But I tell you what, it kept my brain occupied for an hour twice a week, with something completely outside of the norm for me, and in that regard was definitely a big win. Highly recommend it.

"Because I value the marriage and our son's wellbeing so much, I respectfully request that you agree to marriage counseling...." as if to imply that not wanting marriage counseling is akin to not valuing the marriage nor caring about our son.

That is it. It is just another way to try and put you "in your place". That place your WH has always pictured you. The suportive wife. "Always there to confort. Always there to offer intimacy/sex whenever I return home from my adventures outside of my married bubble life and I fell like it" mindset.

From your assertion from every and each move he makes, you are in control - albeit it might not seem like it sometimes. Don't ever loose sight of that. You are doing great considering everything that went through your mind lately.

[This message edited by justanotherperson at 9:19 PM, Monday, October 31st]

I signed up for a beginner fencing class! Who doesn't want to learn to sword-fight?

I absolutely love this idea!!! I just looked and we don't have a class near me, but there are some mixed martial arts for beginner adults!! I would love to sword fight but maybe flipping people would be satisfying? I'm sure that's like professional level but the mental image of this is really compelling......

@realitybites, also thanks for the suggestion of a weird class, it's exactly what I need right now. I do run, I practice yoga through the gym at my work, but I think I need something outside the box right now. Something unfamiliar. Something a little tougher and less comfortable for me.

I am sure your attorney has suggested you look into all of your finances, credit cards, retirement accounts, etc.... just to see how possibly bad this got.

Yes, we're mainly focused on the sexwork money and not because of the dollars he spent but that it's just so egregious that our family - I - financed them. It's concrete. I know there's more he invested in his other life, but nothing I could add up. The sex work at least I can tally. My sister is looking into some women's shelters that, should he be made to reimburse that money to me, I will donate to.

From your assertion from every and each move he makes, you are in control - albeit it might not seem like it sometimes. Don't ever loose sight of that.

Thank you for saying this. Sincerely. My therapist gave me the lighthouse imagery, and I drew so much strength from it because it's so hard to see in the middle of this tidal wave that there's anything solid inside of me anymore. I was feeling more like a rock tumbling in the surf than a lighthouse. And I feel like I've been a puppet controlled by strings more than a woman with choices and autonomy. Thinking of my personality, my morals, my mind, who I am as a wife and mother as being a solid lighthouse and that despite having no choice in the things surrounding me (WH and his entire other personality and life), I do have a choice of how I handle being here... those are some of the very few empowering things I can cling to right now.

And I realize that actually marriage counseling IS my choice to make. WH manipulates it so much that I feel like there's a slide in front of me and I'm being tipped right onto it. Like he makes it seem like any parent who cares about their child would go, anyone who respects their marriage would go, any good wife who truly loved her husband would go, any good spouse would be present through this... all of these things are things I would have agreed with in early August, 2022. And any time before. But when I lay it on the table with the knowledge I have, with my sister or my therapist or you guys here, you all ask the same thing: what's the outcome? To perform an act that makes me LOOK like a parent who loves her child and a wife who respects her marriage? Or to heal issues in the marriage? Counseling should be done with a purpose, and if my only purpose is to not look bad in the eyes of my cheating sexual deviant husband, that's ridiculous, it's not a real purpose. We can't heal anything right now. WH can't even be honest with me about things I already know and that he already admitted. He suddenly "can't remember" saying some of the things he's already told me! I just need some space from his insinuations and lies and manipulation. Every time we have a talk, I spiral down for days on end. I can't afford that right now. I can't even imagine adding in the additional lever of a marriage therapist he might use against me. And I also can't imagine giving him the inch that he will turn into a mile.

Just where my thoughts are today.

Sigyn, just a thought about the stupid MC request - if it is not too draining to consider going, maybe you could agree to go for a limited number of sessions, and once there, use the sessions to help your WH understand that there is no marriage to save, but that a healthy communication skills are necessary to co-parent in the future. You could steer sessions toward identifying ways in which your WH is acting selfishly when your child’s welfare is the most important consideration. Refusing his request, even though it is manipulative and pointless and tone deaf, makes me nervous as he might try to use that against you moving forward. Maybe you can spin it into something you can use.

The first session could be a doozy if it is not with your IC. They usually start with asking why you are there, and I would love to hear you say to help my WH understand that there is no coming back from the damage he has done to me and this marriage, but you need to build a bridge to civil coparenting as you move through the separation and divorce process. Also because he forced me to come here to sign separation documents. I think their eyeballs would bug out. But you will have met his demands, but shift control back to you without giving up your power, just playing a long game. I think I know playing games isn’t your style, but you are going to need all the tactical advantages you can get moving forward.

Just a thought, and apologies in advance if I am out of line. I hope you are finding moments of peace from all the static that must live in your head right now. Hugs to you.

Yes. You could frame it as coparenting counseling, and not marriage counseling. That might actually be useful because coparenting when separated or divorced can get complicated and nuanced quickly.

Thank you for sharing your lighthouse analogy. I have been thinking about that and it's helpful.

I concur with the idea of using marriage counseling as a way to exit gracefully and in a strong position. I would not hide those goals from soon-to-be ex. Just as death is a part of life...

Not a bad idea, but for anything positive to be accomplished, the WS would need to be an honest player, and he's demonstratively not that. He has actually attempted to extort Sigyn's cooperation, and that's because he has his own agenda. I don't think that changes. I think it's more likely to be a circus whereby anything she says in therapy is twisted to fit his narrative.

None of us have crystal balls. What I do know is that your husband is going to try to be in control forever, and he stoops to levels most people wouldn't.

Your lawyer seemed pleased by this single stipulation, so I suppose they've seen worse. What does your IC say?

You're legally married and you share a child. You will have to deal with him to some extent for the foreseeable future. So I don't necessarily think it's a mistake to do the MC if you have an off ramp and trust yourself to use it if you need it (i.e. say you must approve the MC, limit the number of sessions). What you get out of the deal is a signed separation agreement so you can move on to the next battle.

I'm not sure if you're still having kitchen table sessions where he confesses or "confesses" but if you are, then MC might be a way to transition away from talking one on one to a controlled environment with a (hopefully) objective third party. So that's another plus.

We worry about you, of course. If your WH manages to triangulate with or snow the MC, then it will be a big stressor for you. But let's face it . . . there will be stressors with this guy no matter what. You've shown yourself to have deep wells of strength, and you will be able to draw on them when you need them.

Thanks for all of your advice and thoughts about this, it really isn't easy to know what's best, is it? I really appreciate the different perspectives. I think I want to tell WH (not through attorneys) that I would like us to use a marriage counselor to discuss coparenting and our relationship moving forward, but that I'm not ready for that yet, and I'd like him to defer to my needs in this right now. He's in a mode at the moment where he's fronting this perfect, calm, reasonable face and I'd like to take advantage of that. He's not being openly adversarial, just manipulative by pressing me for something he wants and knows I don't want. And really there's no reason for him to not sign the agreement. It's completely normal and says nothing outside of not making major purchases or withdrawals without mutual agreement, and trying to share time and responsibilities for our son as close to 50/50 as each of our schedules allows. It's dressed up in legal language by my attorney but there's nothing to object to in it for him. It's exactly what our regular financial and parenting lives were before this, now just spelled out. The real thing I wanted to put in there was specifying what 'major withdrawals' were. I chose an amount just below what WH was taking out before, presumably for his prostitutes. I notice that he suddenly didn't need that much cash from the bank since I've discovered and confronted him, guess it's less sexy if I know about it.

I absolutely love this idea!!! I just looked and we don't have a class near me, but there are some mixed martial arts for beginner adults!! I would love to sword fight but maybe flipping people would be satisfying? I'm sure that's like professional level but the mental image of this is really compelling......

The physicality is definitely what drew me. I got to stab people! At various points I've also looked at glass blowing, stained glass, woodworking... If it sounds interesting and I can fit it into my schedule, why the heck not? I've done a bunch of furniture refinishing - sanding by hand out in the backyard when the weather is good, with some music blasting and the dog running around, was very meditative and calming for me.

Whatever you decide to try, I hope it brings some peace, at least in small doses to start with. And definitely a little fun, because there's so much now in your life that just isn't.

any good wife who truly loved her husband would go

And you still do love, the thing is he disrespected you to a point where love for him can´t overcome the love you need to have for yourself and your family. He FORCED you onto a "no choice" option, to which you did not ask to be summoned upon but are forcefully being presented with at the moment. And so, you are reacting to it. You and your all being. And you are judging correctly and procceding with care but with purpose - In the mist of the storm. That, NO ONE can take away from you.

WH can't even be honest with me about things I already know and that he already admitted. He suddenly "can't remember" saying some of the things he's already told me! I just need some space from his insinuations and lies and manipulation

Cheaters almost always cover up the ugly things going on with them, when those things somehow "manage to overcome" the reality frontier - for REAL in their own reality. They have a hard time dealing with the ugliness in them - because they do not see it that way. They compartimentalize in a manner that for them, "that ugly" is just a "kink" in the overall personality (similar to talking dirty with the wife amongst four walls) - or so they think. Aka a psychotic behaviour. That is why people are saying that it is almost impossible to understand the "whys", or even for them to come clean and throw out all the reality of things. It almost NEVER happens. That is why one needs to get a grip for oneself. Deal with the charade and go from there.

To perform an act that makes me LOOK like a parent who loves her child and a wife who respects her marriage? Or to heal issues in the marriage? Counseling should be done with a purpose, and if my only purpose is to not look bad in the eyes of my cheating sexual deviant husband, that's ridiculous, it's not a real purpose.

This 100%. And that is why me and others are saying you are doing the correct thing, going the correct path. You know you are not alone in the shitshow infidelity brings upon you. And I sincerely say that your case is one of the hardest one´s to deal with, because your WH seems to be abusing you since, probably... forever.

And we all - one way or another - have fought or are fighting the battles you are living at the moment, dealing with the mindfuckery going on in your brain. The diference in you is that you are dealing with this rollercoaster ride with a mindset really strategically built upon fundations of though. And really, really early on too. A few months is NOTHING. I mean, you are managing to have some clarity to get yourself out of the fog and delusion this all brings to the mind and take a step back to analise things from a far away perspective. And that is great in itself. That is helping you A LOT for your future, even if you don´t notice that now. Taking a step back. Realizing that your situation, although almost unbearable at the moment, is not going anywhere any time soon. So, dealing with the reality it presents you with some resolution, focus and free mindset is paramount at the stage you are at. For your own good.

With this comes the realization that no matter WHAT - planet earth does not stop spinning because of the issues you are dealt with, nor does your life ends. And being conscious of this particular outcome will help you imensely going forward - whatever the path may be. It is CARACTER building to an extent (in the light of your current situation) that it is worth going through the steps. It really is. A few years from know you will look back and notice where I´m coming from with these.

Enjoy the small things. Live in the moment. Keep chipping at it. You are doing great. Stay strong Sigyn. That is all one can do - taking care of oneself.

P.S: If you are into a bit more rought sports, you may always try driving Karts. Tremendous little exercise to keep the mind focus in the now and throw away all the noise. But you need to be at least a bit fit. They tend to be a bit "violent".

[This message edited by justanotherperson at 3:12 AM, Wednesday, November 2nd]