SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Maybe write a list of your demands down on paper.

If I met someone, back when I was single, who had a history of infidelity, I certainly wouldn’t date them

I tried explaining this to WH. No matter how good looking someone is, if they cheat, they are ugly

So, when considering Reconciliation, that kinda keeps me from going all in

I’m married to a serial cheater, so exceptionally ugly

My fWH continued to sleep in our bedroom after dday. He continued to do laundry and I continued to do the cooking, which was and is our traditional division of labor. The only real difference in lifestyle was that after dday, we spent almost ALL of our time together. We did the shopping together, ran errands together. We were only apart at work, and then we were in almost constant email/texting contact. In the evenings, instead of doing separate activities we played cards, almost every night for months and months. We shared in each other's hobbies as well.

Now, seven years out, we've relaxed a good bit. But I think in those first couple of years we were both kind of freaked out by how close we'd come to losing each other, and we both craved that sense of unity.

One might have said that my WH hadn't had "consequences", and that might have been correct in the punitive sense. Honestly though, his consequences were much like mine.. he had come very close to losing me. I think that punishment and R are incompatible. From very early on, I realized that there really isn't any punishment that fits the crime if we want to stay together. The most rational consequence of adultery is divorce, right? I had decided to forego that logical consequence, and in the interest of repairing our bond, I couldn't punish him without punishing myself. Any pain I would cause him would splash back on me. Say, I kick him out of the bed, there is no "we" for the night, and maybe tomorrow will see a restoration of our "we" but maybe not, resulting in stress for him and stress for me.

Anyway, I think it all depends on what your WS has learned from this broken contact. Mine broke contact after dday as well. It didn't mean he would continue to break contact. It just meant that he didn't get it yet. Not getting it immediately doesn't mean a WS won't get it all. They're "wayward" for a reason, right? It can take a minute to clear all the junk rationalizations from their heads.

I don't see consequences as equating to punishment. I see it as abrupt changes in a cheater's life,that makes them uncomfortable. Your husband is clearly very comfortable with continuing to damage his marriage.

And,sorry, not ALL waywards break NC. Some. Not all. From what I've read in these forums over the last several years, it's the passive BS who have waywards who continue to break NC,lie,and cheat. A BS who makes it very clear they will not tolerate one more instance of abuse(and infidelity IS abuse),do not have a wayward who breaks NC..unless of course, that WS really isn't interested in actually reconciling.

Also,just because "other" WS break NC, doesn't mean it's ok. It doesn't make it acceptable. It doesn't mean you have to continue to eat the shit sandwich he's feeding you.

I mean..really? No BS should say to themselves.."oh, it's ok. This is normal for waywards to see the AP, to talk to their AP,to break NC, because other waywards have done it before." It is NOT ok for a BS to accept further abuse,simply because other BS have chosen to do so.

[This message edited by HellFire at 9:21 PM, Friday, May 27th]

he tried to minimize the phone call by saying, "It was just a phone call. It's not like I jumped into her car and had sex."

And the response to that is, "How do I know that you didn't?"

It's laughable for him to claim that he knows how you feel. The first clue is that he didn't vomit the second he saw her number come up on his phone. Because that's how he would respond if he really understood how you felt and actually gave a damn about it. He doesn't because the only thing an active WS gives a damn about is their bottomless pit of "needs". He NEEDS closure. He NEEDS to not be mean to her. He NEEDS to know she's okay.

The truth is that nobody knows how it feels to be betrayed by a spouse out of the blue unless it has happened to them. It's unlike anything else that can happen to a person. The destruction of your reality is something that takes a long time to heal and forces you to reorient your entire view of the world. It leaves ugly scars and sometimes never heals completely. It ruins lives. He doesn't have a clue.

You are doing well. I don't think there was any harm in your VM to the OW. The problem with contacting APs is that you don't want to give them an opportunity to harm, manipulate, or inject themselves into your life. Since it went to voicemail none of that occurred. It would probably not be helpful to make it a habit or accept any attempts she might make to respond.

Have you asked your WH to write out a detailed timeline of the A? I don't think a BS can really conceive of how deceitful their WS has been until they hear all the details of just how much time, energy, emotion, and lies their WS has been putting into betraying them. That doesn't magically end when you confront them. They will continue to lie until they understand that you will no longer accept it and there will be consequences.

If OBS doesn't respond to your Linked-In message you should assume that the OW has already gaslighted him to expect your contact. You're a crazy bitch who is insanely jealous. Your WH will probably confirm that if he contacts him. We have seen that happen many times.

If you don't get a response, go the certified letter route. Be sure to include enough proof to show that you are not just a jealous wife. Unfortunately we've even seen OBSs so gaslighted by their WSs that they throw the letter away unopened out of misguided trust. That is why you never warn a WS or AP that you're going to inform the OBS.

Be strong. It's time for him to start getting it.

[This message edited by Seeking2Forgive at 10:15 PM, Friday, May 27th]

T/J for a minute:

CT, I often agree with you, but ...

Anyway, I think it all depends on what your WS has learned from this broken contact. Mine broke contact after dday as well. It didn't mean he would continue to break contact. It just meant that he didn't get it yet. Not getting it immediately doesn't mean a WS won't get it all. They're "wayward" for a reason, right? It can take a minute to clear all the junk rationalizations from their heads.

I'm sorry, but as general advice, I don't agree with any of this. Things worked out for you in spite of the way you handled your WS, not because of it. This nicing them back with board games and love is the default setting for most BS (imo) and they suffer repeated emotional injury and humiliation! To recommend this is not responsible in my view. Depends on what they have learned? Well, when they break contact, they SHOW you what they have learned--that you will take their abuse! It can take a minute? Sure, they get 60 seconds. If you don't mean that minute literally, then exactly how long are you advising BS to suffer with a hurtful, unremorseful spouse????

I just do not agree whatsoever.
End T/J

I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all method, OIN. We can't MAKE other people do what we want, or more accurately BE what we want.

So, what is the suggestion here?.. that the OP kick her WH out of bed? Is she doing it to try and make him conform to her wishes so that he can sleep in the bed again, or is it because she legitimately doesn't want him in her bed? Same thing with the theater hobby. Is it because she's punishing him like his mommy? Or is it a real boundary for her that she won't be married to a man who does theater? Does that hold as well for any hobby where there's potential to meet another woman or is it a punishment because he abused his privileges the first time? And really, who are we to decide what privileges another grown ass adult can have?

I couldn't have gone into R if I was expected to be some kind of authoritarian figure in my husband's life. Why would I want to keep him under those kind of circumstances? I think it's natural that we monitor for a time, until we feel like we're secure with our choice, but I'm not his mommy or his warden. I'm not here to MAKE him do what I want. He either wants to be with me or he doesn't. If he doesn't, that shit becomes obvious when we're really looking. And after discovering an intimate betrayal, after dday most of us are REALLY looking.

It sucks, but yeah... I honestly do feel like the WS "gets away with it when we choose R". And I think we have to either be okay with that, or make another choice.How am I supposed to hurt him without hurting me? We're a couple at that point, bound together. To hurt the one is to hurt the whole. In terms of "consequences", I'd say a good post-nup would be about as much as I'd have been comfortable doing. I just wasn't willing to become something I didn't want to be in order to stay married.

I think the OP is doing fine. Her instincts are good and she'll do well to listen to them.

Getting a divorce isn’t such an easy thing. We live in a very expensive area. Our house is paid for.

I know divorce isn't easy. We all know- that's why we're here- we've been in your shoes. I was in a very similar position to you: autistic child, expensive area while I have low income, crappy partner. That's why I stayed for so long. But staying and trying yourself doesn't make it work. HE has to want it to work, with all of his heart, and he clearly doesn't. He could easily cheat again and leave you with a lifelong STD, or just up and leave you, because he doesn't love you. Your situation is not secure and you need to start planning an exit strategy.

[This message edited by morningglory at 11:39 PM, Friday, May 27th]

I personally don't think that consequences automatically equate to 'punishment'. Ultimately, achieving R takes time, and it also takes a herculean effort from both the BS and the WS. Unfortunately, none of us own a Tardis and so none of us can peek into the future to see if things will work out, so there has to be some kind of 'proof' the WS can give NOW in order to show the BS they're serious when they say that fixing the marriage and working on themselves are their top priorities. Otherwise, how can the BS possibly be expected to find the strength it takes to overcome the betrayal and start rebuilding trust?

But how can you prove a feeling? How do you 'prove' something that's in your head? That's where the actions and the sacrifice comes in. It doesn't really matter if they're mourning the loss of the AP, or if they really liked doing the thing - hobby, job, volunteering, whatever - that brought them in contact with the AP. The whole point is that, while these things might mean an internal struggle and dealing with regret, those things pale in comparison to the idea of losing their spouse.

In other words, it's the 'proof' the WS can offer that they're serious enough to willingly make these sacrifices in order to start rebuilding their BS's trust. It's not really about tit-for-tat because CT is right - there is no tat that can make up for this particular...er, tit.

How do you 'prove' something that's in your head? That's where the actions and the sacrifice comes in.

For sure.

Actions over words. Talk is cheap. My WS talked a good game for many years, and I kept wondering why it wasn't enough for me. It was because his talk amounted to nothing, no change at all.

there is no tat that can make up for this

The WS will whine and cry that their sacrifices are "tats," punishments if you will. Poor babies. They frequently claim we are being petty or vindictive. And then you have nothing to work with. Their needs are more important than yours. They are showing you how they really feel. Unfortunately many BS are too empathetic and understanding when it comes to their WS. Some might say (me!) that this played a role in our WS believing they could do this to us in the first place, even though they "love us and value the M!" They have been so used to us understanding everything from their spoiled point of view that they are counting on and expecting our continued understanding now.

Fight the urge to be overly understanding of their plight. As we frequently say here, where was their understanding of our feelings when they cheated on us? Yep. We've been understanding and empathetic in our Ms, and look where it got us?

You do not act to intentionally harm a WS; you act to intentionally take care of yourself and your own needs as the priority at this time. Which you absolutely deserve. And your need for safety says, "All avenues of contact with OW including clubs, jobs, and connections are over." If your WS claims you are punishing him, you know where your feelings fit on his priority list. Imagine the future slippery slopes that this continued selfish thinking will lead him down! Yet again! Do not allow this. Stand up for yourself.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 6:33 PM, Saturday, May 28th]

You do not act to intentionally harm a WS; you act to intentionally take care of yourself and your own needs as the priority at this time. Which you absolutely deserve. And your need for safety says, "All avenues of contact with OW including clubs, jobs, and connections are over." If your WS claims you are punishing him, you know where your feelings fit on his priority list. Imagine the future slippery slopes that this continued selfish thinking will lead him down! Yet again! Do not allow this. Stand up for yourself.

Yep. I totally agree. Yesterday I was feeling especially unsettled all day. I kept asking myself what was bothering me and it finally clicked. Last night was the first time he was scheduled for check-in duty at the theater since last week when he took her phone call on the way home. The thought of him going back, especially after she called to ask if she could be there sometimes (a bull-sh** excuse to call him), had me triggered. It seemed too painful to sit here on a Friday night while he was off at the theater where she could possibly show up.

So, when he got home from work, I told him I had been thinking about what would make me feel safe and protected. I told him my IC advised that I need to set my boundaries and leave him to honor or ignore them, it's on him. At the same time, I would be remiss if I didn't clue him in on what would make me feel safe. I told him that his volunteering at the theater was too much for me. It's a job that they used to do together. She could still show up, even though he and I both told her not to. And, the time spent driving back and forth is when he answered her call last week. He's also cast in a show that is scheduled to start rehearsals at the end of the summer (postponed from last fall due to Covid). I told him I may ask him to resign from that show as well. He's been cast in yet another show that is supposed to begin rehearsals next spring. That one was already postponed from this year due to Covid (which he brought home to us from the three rehearsals they had). I told him I "might" be OK with him doing that show, depending upon what kind of progress I see since it's still a year away.

He immediately went into defense mode. He said, "OK, but I can't just cancel on them tonight. We don't even have enough people signed up. They'll resent me if I cancel now. Blah blah blah." After a few more exchanges, he picked up his phone and said, "Well let me see what I can figure out." He said they had two people and could pull in some ushers if necessary for the check-ins. He sent an email letting them know he couldn't be there. He said, "OK, I'm not going tonight just like you asked." I said, "Yeah, after a lot of back-and-forths and excuses." He said, "I want to make you feel protected and safe, but..." I said, "I can't deal with buts. I told you how you going there made me feel. Instead of telling me you get it, you understand, you want me to feel safe, you'll look at the list and figure it out, you pushed back. That tells me you still don't fully get it." We had a long discussion after that. He agreed that he should have started with, "I get what you're saying. I'll figure it out." He says his brain snaps into "analytical mode" and starts churning through the logistics instead of addressing my emotions first. He said interpersonal communication skills are one of the things he wants to work on with his IC.

We're both signed up to volunteer tonight and see the show for free afterward. I told him I would agree to go and do it, although being there might not be easy. He took his name off the list for tomorrow and is making sure the next two weekends are covered without him. I still don't think he truly "gets" my trauma. I think he's avoiding it so he doesn't have to feel it himself. He has his first IC appointment on Monday and our priest friend is supposed to call and check in with him this weekend. I'm really not trying to rug-sweep this, and I'm not allowing him to either. I know that he is a deeply flawed person. I've always known that, just not to this degree. I can't expect him to suddenly wake up and right 60 years of wrongs in one fell swoop. I know it will take time. I just need to stay vigilant in expressing what I need and what I will and will not tolerate.

In other news, the new couch is here! I insisted on dumping the old one after he said they had sex on it. That piece of crap is gone. It's out of my house. I'm sitting on the new one and thoroughly enjoying its comfort!

Great job on standing up for yourself. One day at a time. And congrats on the couch!

Great job is staying firm on your boundaries! Absolutely do not back down. Not now and not months from now. If he cares about you, he can give up the theater.

You say you can't disturb your son's life. Remind him and yourself that he also knew this and didn't care. If anyone causes your son distress with changes, its him. He should be willing to move mountains and be infinitely uncomfortable to make you feel safe. So far he has failed spectacularly. So I'm very happy for you that you don't plan to let that happen anymore.