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My H had 2 LTAs in the last 9 years, first EA/PA lasted for 9 years and the second, just PA, for the last 5. I found out about both in July / September this year. He wants to reconcile and has broken off both affairs in July after D-day 1. I wish for that too, but right now I just don't know if all this isn't a dealbraker for me, so we will see. WH is trying really hard to show me that he can be a safe partner for me, he is doing almost everything right, and he is showing real remorse, but we have one thing we just can't agree about.

The first LTAP was a coworker and they still work together. Changing jobs at the moment just isn't a realistic possibility, so we agreed to try it and it has been going fairly OK in the last months. The AP doesn't completely get "no contact", so she approaches him from time to time, but he always tells me about it and about everything she says. It happened more often in the first few months after D-day1 and only once in the last 2 months, because he is avoiding her the best he can. She is mainly complaining about NC and why they can't at least communicate about work stuff, but sometimes also about how ugly the breakup was, how she cried because of him for a long time, etc. I hate that she is still reaching out and I struggle with the fact, that she just got away with everything and doesn't feel one bit guilty about interfering in our relationship and in our family. There is not much I can do about it, but at least I want to see her get hurt, at least a little bit. So i want my WH to send her a final NC message, to tell her once and for all, that she was always the second choice, that he never for a second considered leaving me for her, that being with her is the worst choice he made in his life and he regrets it immensely, that he wants to do anything to repair the damage and a part of this is staying no conact with her. All true according to him, so I don't expect him to lie to her, just give her the brutal truth. Basically I want her to know that even though he thought he was in love with her and she believed thay had a great love story, she never had anything real and she wasted 9 years on a fantasy with a man who chose his wife the second he had to make a choice. She has a huge ego and she still can't get over the fact that he chose me over her, so if he told her all this, she would probably stop contacting him.

My WH of course isn't thrilled about this idea. He gets that I hate her and want her to pay, but he doesn't want to be the one to deliver the blow. He says while he doesn't have any more feelings for her, he also doesn't want to hurt her and this just pisses me off. He had no problems hurting me for the last 9 years, he didn't even think what he was doing to me and now he is worried about hurting her. He says he doesn't think about her at all any more and just wants to keep it this way, and any communication on his part, except maybe another NC message, is a step in the wrong direction. I can understand his view, but just want her to suffer a fraction of what they have put me through. The way I see it, it was him and her against me for the past 9 years, so now I want him to stand with me against her. If I push, he will probably do it, but I want him to be a willing participant, just as he was willing to cause me pain for her sake.

So I need an outside perspective. Is it wrong to want to get back at a person who did me so much harm? And wanting WH to participate? Is it too much to ask? I get that I should focus on myself and my healing, but I just can't get her out of my system. So I think if I put her in her place somehow, maybe I will be able to move on. Is it strange to think that?

And yes, I realize, WH is the one to blame the most for the affairs. If he had boundaries, nothing she did or said would have mattered. So I am angry with him, way more than with her, and I expect him to work to become a better person, a safe partner for me before considering reconcilliation. But she had her role in this mess and I need her to pay somehow before I can move on.

[This message edited by ZetaCephei at 12:08 AM, Tuesday, November 30th]

It is absolutely NOT too much to ask. She should be sent a final NC letter. Many NC letters have looked similar to what you have asked for. Your WH's refusal is a big, red flag that he, on some level, still holds on to the fantasy. If what he says is true about her, there is no good reason for him to protect her. And at your expense at that!

I don't find it believable at all that he just doesn't think of her anymore. She's there, still in his space and still crying for him. She's still there causing issues between the two of you with her presence and his refusal to shut her down. Maybe he should be a little more aware of it if this compartmentalization is allowing him to continue a situation that is hurtful to you and unacceptable in the face of R.

So I am angry with him, way more than with her, and I expect him to work to become a better person, a safe partner for me before considering reconcilliation.

As you should be and as he should be. What is he doing to become a safe partner other than not cheating? What is he doing to find remorse? (Because this ain't it if she still comes before you) And what do you plan on doing if he refuses to put you above her and will not do what should be an easy task to rebuild trust and move towards R?

Not too much to ask at all. I feel this is minimal that needs to get done. Your spouse seeing the AP at work is a bomb that is waiting to go off. Especially since the AP is still after your spouse. She needs to be cut off completely so you can heal properly. Sending you strength and peace!

To me, it's him putting his needs and her needs above yours and above the needs of your M.

She’s an employee in his company?

Stop and consider anything in writing she can use against him for bogus reasons of sexual harassment etc.

Stop putting things in writing. First and foremost he needs to protect himself from revenge from her.

Secondly he needs to preserve his job and he needs to steer clear of her. And he needs to get another job ASAP.

Did he think after 9 years she’s going to just "go away"? He’s clueless and doesn’t understand the damage he caused to so many lives. Including yours and hers and yours family etc.

Stop asking him to put things in writing. Big mistake IMO

I don't find it believable at all that he just doesn't think of her anymore. She's there, still in his space and still crying for him. She's still there causing issues between the two of you with her presence and his refusal to shut her down.

I have/had hard time believing it too. He claims he was in love with her, but after I found out and he had to choose between us, he never hesitated and now says he just doesn't look back. I suggested it obviously wasn't real, if he could just stop having feelings for her, but he doesn't agree. The explanation is, while he was in love with her, he had known for a long time, their A just didn't have a happy ending and would have to stop eventually, he just couldn't bring himself to do it (for 9 years ). So he had time to adjust to the fact that she would be gone some day. And now that it is over, he says it is for the best and he doesn't allow himself to dwell on what could be, because he is confident he made the right choice. He just wants this part of his life to be over. It kind of makes sense, but then again, idk maybe I just want it to make sense, to belive that he really is willing to change. I have a good feeling that he is finally telling me the truth, even my gut that I was ignoring for the past 9 years, is silent now, but I can't know for sure.

To be fair, he is trying to shut her down. He told her on several occasions, that they can't interact anymore, except when is absolutely neccessary for work. He informed hiss boss about the affair and asked not to be put on joint projects with her, which btw really pissed her off . He avoids seeing her, and if they end up in the same room, he ignores her, but it is not always possible. Last week, when she approached him after two months of NC, he couldn't get away, so he just listened and didn't comment, except repeating that they cannot be in contact other then absolutely neccessary work related stuff. So he is trying to be NC, he just doesn't want to hurt her by rubbing it in that their relationship was the worst choice he ever made and he regrets every moment of it. And I get it, no decent person wants to deliberately hurt someone else, particularly not someone he had feelings for, but I just want him to do it for me. To show me, that I come first now, that he is in my corner and that if I need it, he is willing to do something he won't be proud of, for me.

What is he doing to become a safe partner other than not cheating?

I have to admit, he is really trying on that front. We are talking all the time, about us and about the affairs. He brings it up, so I don't have to and he apologizes all the time. He is figuring out why and how he let himself betray me and our relatinoship. I can see his remorse, he actually just breaks down sometimes with guilt and shame and this feeling that he destroyed everything. He never blameshifts, accepts full responsibility and he is always there for me, wheather I am sad and I cry or if I am mad or when I just have to vent. He is open about his whereabouts at all times, he gave me access to all his accounts and his location, he calls me a lot, just to confirm he is next to his phone, when I check his location, he establishes video link whenever I need or when he has to stay late at work, to confirm he is not with her. So other than fucking her in a toilet at work, there isn't much he could do to maintain a PA with her. EA is another thing, but as I said earlier, my gut is telling me, he is sincere now. But if I am wrong, I will divorce him. What I have learned in the past 9 years is, that I can live without him and I am not willing to put up with any disrespect from him ever again. I am not saying that sending her the NC letter with brutal truth is a dealbreaker, it is not, if he proves to me he can be safe and loving partner some other way. But it does show me, that he still wants to protect her, even at my expense and it could set the possibility of R back.

[This message edited by ZetaCephei at 10:47 AM, Tuesday, November 30th]

She’s an employee in his company?

No, the are both employees in a public company and equal in rank, so no supervisor-subordinate relationship. His boss is aware of the affair and how it started, so sex harrasment claims are not an option and his job is not at risk. I have considered for him to tell her everything I need face to face, instead of in writing, but I just don't want them to interact any more than absolutely necessary, so I thought sending a NC email and then blocking her would be the best approach.

I had a similar situation.

I don't think you're seeking "to get back at her", what you're seeking is for your WH to completely end his affair so you feel safe. He doesn't get to make her feelings important, he doesn't get to look like the good guy, he doesn't get to avoid responsibility.

He must send her the NC letter, brief and to the point, saying he has no feelings for her and he is re-committing to his M.

If she then persists in "not getting" what no contact really means, then he has to lay out consequences for if her behavior continues.

1. All communication from you will be ignored and shown to my wife

2. All attempts at personal contact, when I have requested you to stop, will be logged and then shown to our employer as evidence of harassment.

If he doesn't do this for you, even if he's sharing communications with you, he is re-traumatising you so he can retain her admiration. He might not know this, but it's why they skirt around these situations.

I don't think you're seeking "to get back at her", what you're seeking is for your WH to completely end his affair so you feel safe. He doesn't get to make her feelings important, he doesn't get to look like the good guy, he doesn't get to avoid responsibility.

You may be onto something here. I never thought about it, just figured I wanted revenge, but maybe it is more about burning all the bridges. The more brutally honest he is with her, less likely it is that she would ever want him back. And that would make me feel safer, even with all his promises he never wants anything to do with her anymore..

You need to tell her husband. He’s been in the dark for nine years and deserves to know what kind of woman he’s married to. He can also hold her accountable if they decide to work on their marriage.

It’s not revenge telling him. It’s common courtesy. You would have wanted someone telling you years ago if they had known.

[This message edited by CometGirl at 6:52 AM, November 30th (Tuesday)]

[This message edited by CometGirl at 12:52 PM, Tuesday, November 30th]

His boss is aware of the affair and how it started, so sex harrasment claims are not an option and his job is not at risk. I have considered for him to tell her everything I need face to face, instead of in writing, but I just don't want them to interact any more than absolutely necessary, so I thought sending a NC email and then blocking her would be the best approach.

Honestly I would take a different route at this point. He doesn't think he change jobs now, so I would encourage you and your spouse to take his works HR policy, and the above information to an attorney and find out if he can just send a cease and desist order from the attorney.

You are in a bad spot. I would absolutely refuse to even attempt R with my spouse if NC was not established on all fronts. While it sounds like that he is trying, I don't know that he has true remorse, be careful of the crying and guilt and shame cycle. Don't allow his tears to sway you. Real remorse means he will meet you where you are on this in anyway he can. Real remorse means no anger, real empathy, and patience with dealing with the 9 years of betrayal.

Real remorse means he will meet you where you are on this in anyway he can. Real remorse means no anger, real empathy, and patience with dealing with the 9 years of betrayal.

It also means being willing to send the damn letter and not pitying the OW.

Tush is right. See what your legal options are. If your WH really does want to put an end to this, he should be jumping at the chance to be rid of her.

I have to admit, he is really trying on that front. We are talking all the time, about us and about the affairs. He brings it up, so I don't have to and he apologizes all the time. He is figuring out why and how he let himself betray me and our relatinoship.

This isn't bad but it sounds like it's mostly focused on you. What is he doing for HIMSELF to change from cheating partner to good partner? Talking to you about the A isn't going to cut it because you're not capable of doing that work for him or with him. Is he in IC? Is he reading books? Does he have a support group? Podcasts? Videos? Has he talked to anyone about your NC letter and what they think about it? Does he have anyone other than you to challenge him when he's headed in a direction that goes against R like he is with this?

This isn't bad but it sounds like it's mostly focused on you. What is he doing for HIMSELF to change from cheating partner to good partner? Talking to you about the A isn't going to cut it because you're not capable of doing that work for him or with him. Is he in IC? Is he reading books? Does he have a support group? Podcasts? Videos? Has he talked to anyone about your NC letter and what they think about it? Does he have anyone other than you to challenge him when he's headed in a direction that goes against R like he is with this?

He is reading a lot, I forwarded him some of the titles suggested here (Helping your spouse heal from your affair and Not just friends) and he found some material on his own. He also listenes to podcasts and is looking videos online. He made some progress on why and how he allowed himself to stray so far from what he believed was right. He started IC, but the therapist was a disaster (blaming the affair on preexisting marital problems and accusing me of having too high moral standards, which WH just couldn't live up to), so this is on hold for the moment. We were looking for other counsellers, but it seems most around here have this philosophy of shared responsibility for affairs and this is a red flag for me. Also no support group and I am more or less the only one he talks about the affairs to. He has a friend, who knows about the affair and supports him on his path, but she is also AP's friend, so he didn't talk to her about this problem. So I can acknowledge his efforts to try to repair what he has broken, to change himself and to help me heal, but I have to see if he will continue with it. I don't trust him and probably won't for a long time. I want to R, but only if I can truly believe he won't hurt me again. Otherwise I am better on my own.

Real remorse means he will meet you where you are on this in anyway he can. Real remorse means no anger, real empathy, and patience with dealing with the 9 years of betrayal.

I really think at this point he is remorseful. There is no anger from his side about anything, except anger towards himself, otherwise he appears very understanding and patient with all my issues. Even with this problem we are discussing, there was no anger or frustration, he just very calmly explained why he doesn't think it is a good idea. And then I was angry . I really don't have many issues with his actions over the last 2 months, after D-day2. Not wanting to do or say things that would hurt her, even if I feel they would help me, is probably the major one. Although to be fair, he did it once, before D-day2 and it felt great and she did ignore him almost up to now after that. That is why I think a NC letter with all the brutal facts would put her off contacting him again.

It also means being willing to send the damn letter and not pitying the OW.

This is actually all I want from him right now, apart from what he is already doing. I believe she would back off, she is too proud to be chasing after him after that, so hopefully we would be free from her and it would be easier to go on.

[This message edited by ZetaCephei at 9:31 PM, Sunday, December 5th]

I don't think you're asking for too much at all. You are agreeing to try to R with someone that continues to work with their long-term affair partner (who appears to continue to pine for him). This, I imagine, is about the triggeriest of all scenarios. The very least he could do to support you through this would be to do EVERYTHING in his power to make you as comfortable and as safe as possible.

I agree with someone above in that I don't see your request as being purely spiteful at all. In many ways it's just practical. It's also a high-value way for him to demonstrate to you that he's all-in with you (and all-out with her) - the fact that it will "hurt her feelings" would just be a nice added bonus. Even if he doesn't have feelings for her any longer, by protecting her feelings, he is still valuing her comfort over yours. That is antithetical to R in my view. As you said, he's supposed to be on your team. This is the only way you will be able to feel safe.

I must also say the fact that he uses language like "we cant talk", is a weaselly thing to do as well. It makes it sound like he would if he could but cannot because his mean boss wife wont let him. It protects her feelings, lets him remain the good-guy, and leaves the door open on their relationship. He should be using language like, "I have told you that I do not want to talk to you if it's not work-related."

He started IC, but the therapist was a disaster (blaming the affair on preexisting marital problems and accusing me of having too high moral standards, which WH just couldn't live up to), so this is on hold for the moment.

Oof. Glad you nipped that in the bud ASAP. Imagine taking the position that fidelity was too high a moral standard for marriage

If I were you, I would demand that the WH file a claim of sexual harrassment against the AP. Since he has already told his boss, that is the first check. Now he goes to HR, it will be the second documented notated against the same individual. Lastly, he needs to send the no contact letter in writing, but he should do this first before going to HR. You can get real crafty with the writing Zeta, and make it look like your husband is the innocent one here even though he was a willing party.

If you do those things, and your husband can verbally tell her that she was always just a warm hole to put it in b/c she was easy, the AP will probably lose her shit, and you may be able to get her fired. She's a scorned woman, and we all know they can be fired up, and you can use that to your advantage.

Game plan with the wise folks here on how you should proceed if you're bent on getting back at her.

I completely agree that he needs to send a NC letter like yesterday. Also, I wonder if she knows about the other LTA? If she doesn't, that might be enough to burst her little butthurt bubble so that she leaves him alone.

ZC I’ll be the bad guy -

I just want him to do it for me.

But he won’t

To show me, that I come first now

He’s not and doesn’t want to

that he is in my corner and that if I need it, he is willing to do something he won't be proud of, for me.

And he’s unwilling to do so FOR you, but had no issue doing so with another woman TO YOU for 9 years. This is harsh, but harsh is your reality.

The AP doesn't completely get "no contact", so she approaches him from time to time

This is why every single person said till we were blue in the face he had to leave his job. He won’t send her the NC letter, and won’t leave his job and she won’t stop approaching and he’s still emotionally connected to her (ironically understandably, she was his parallel wife for close to a decade), it’s inevitable they will start up again. I’m so sorry ZC but it just is and my heart breaks for you.

Tears isn’t remorse. Not getting angry he doesn’t get to have sex with 3 women isn’t remorse. Reading some literature and listening to podcasts isn’t remorse. Writing the NC letter you asked of him is remorse. Contacting her husband, and snitching that she won’t leave him alone at work is remorse. Asking for a meeting in their supervisor’s office and saying to her in front of their boss "do not talk to me at work anymore, we are nothing more than two people who work for the same company and I am telling you to stop" would take nothing for your husband to do. But he won’t. Strongly rebuffing her at work is remorse. Your husband isn’t expressing remorse.

You and your husband are doing circular laps in the river denial alongside each other. He thinks he can stop being who he inherently is by sheer will force, when he’s proven for many years to being incapable. And although you are clearly not getting what you need in this reconciliation attempt, you’re trying to convince yourself that it’s enough and it’s ok. What’s happening right now isn’t the end of an affair, at most it’s on ice. AP’s probably the only one being realistic. She knows it’s just a matter of time before she wears him down. Because your husband’s act of "no contact" is equivalent to boarding up a house with cardboard when there’s a tornado swirling around it. Flimsy, weak, lethargic and clearly ineffective.

I don't think you're seeking "to get back at her", what you're seeking is for your WH to completely end his affair so you feel safe

Precisely. And ZC’s husband failure and refusal to do so is making ZC question her sanity because for all his self denigration and crocodile tears, he won’t do the most basic thing, end the affair.

Zeta, I know totally where your coming from. My wife had an affair 16 yrs ago with a coworker. Lasted 3 months so she says. He got transferred to another store and her also to a different store both due to promotions. As fate would have it, some 3-4 years later they both get transferred back to the same store and again are working side by side.

I asked my wife to quit because of this. She refused. I confronted the AP and let him know just how I felt. He then in turn went straight to my wife and called his district manager seeking protection. This resulted in the district manager rug sweeping as long as they promised to not continue the affair. Amazing how acceptable affairs are in the work place. And we are talking about a big nation wide company.

She swore nothing every happened again which I believe as much as a 42 year man believes in Santa Claus.
More to my point. Recently I have had a massive relapse and all those feelings of despair and depression came flooding back. They neither work for that cess pool of a company and I asked my wife to contact the AP and "burn that bridge" and she refused again. I had the same feelings as you. She is protecting the AP, holding on to those feelings and experiences they had, leaving the door open. She thought it was stupid after 16 years but it felt like yesterday to ME. After seeing my suffering for the last 6 months and how this was a deal breaker/marriage killer she picked up the phone and did it. FINALLY she had chose me and our marriage. That single act alone catapulted our recovery and lifted a huge weight off my shoulders. No longer was my mind playing fortune teller about why she wouldn’t do this and it has opened the door now for to us able to tackle other issues holding us back.

So NO, your not being unreasonable. He NEEDS to choose you. It’s that simple.

Also on a side note, no job is worth the sanctity if your marriage. If he must quit to avoid NC, then he must quit. Again, he needs to choose YOU.

Zeta, It is not too much to ask. But it appears too much for him to do. If he could he would have already.

If I were you, and I am admittedly very biased here, I would armor up for battle, contact the OW and make clear that until you divorce your H, any inappropriate or unnecessary contact with him means war. You must be prepared to out her personally and professionally in every forum you can find as a home wrecking adulterer living a lie and trying to destroy your marriage. That is how I managed to break the ties that bound my WH to his LTMOW, by removing her from the equation with fear of brutal public disclosure. I recommend it highly, and only wish I hadn't waited so long to send her scurrying. All it took was an email and my assurance that I would not be trifled with by either of them again. I was clear that she could have him if and when I decided I was done with him, but I would tolerate zero contact or any further trespass in my marriage until we divorced. I also let her know all the awful things he told me about her, just to knock her down off her shiny girlfriend pedestal. That part was for me.

IMHO, you need to pivot the threat to you from her continued presence in your husbands and your personal lives to her from you via swift retribution should she continue to threaten your marriage. I am afraid you will grow old and weary waiting for your husband to be so definitive in shutting down his LT girlfriend/coworker/body buddy. He probably doesn't want to hurt her feelings or deal with the conflict because it makes him uncomfortable. He may be in the freeze part of the program too. Who knows why they do what the do or don't do? But I'm a big advocate for doing what you can to do to create your own secure future, in any way you can.

I wish you strength and luck.