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General :
The case against Esther Perel - why?

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Oldwounds ( member #54486) posted at 6:10 PM on Monday, November 22nd, 2021

Idk maybe because I’ve fucked up enough in my life I have more compassion for fellow fuck ups who want to be and do better.

This.

When it boils down to it, this is pretty much my take on me, my life and the real reason I gave my wife a shot at redemption — once she showed some sense of empathy for the damage she caused.

As for Perel, weirdly I saw a talk she gave on a late night PBS station a few weeks before my wife confessed her A, after keeping it a secret for 15-years. So, seeing that talk it did help in some sense that unrealistic expectations and social constructs set us all up for disappointment. What she didn’t do well in that talk is show any realistic take on the trauma, damage and fall-out from infidelity. I think that’s where the blow back happens the most. Sometimes Perel feels like the long version of the bumper sticker, "Shit Happens."

And that’s true, but most shit that happens doesn’t shred my heart into 5 billion pieces.

I’ll also never introduce my wife at a social gathering as, "This my ex-slut, and mom of my kids."

Because I don’t see her that way. I never have.

Of course, she may be able to convince me otherwise with future shitty meltdowns, but it sure seems like she betrayed her own self interest and hurt herself — but not as much as she hurt me.

I also understand this quote from This0is0Fine:

Some cultures still stone adulterers.

Weird how the moral relativists hardly ever talk about that.

Relativism will be the end of all civilization, in my humble estimation.

Lack of accountability has become far more than a trend it’s becoming the way of the world.

However, until that end or at least until the end of my time here on the planet, I can lament the "Shit Happens" bumper sticker philosophy AND see my wife as a whole human. A human being who literally fucked up her whole world with me as her collateral damage. A human capable of remorse and me capable of allowing her redemption.

Perel allows for the humanity, just not the accountability part. Of course infidelity is a part of humanity, but it may help the world to remind folks there are far better ways to address relationship issues than having sex with someone OUTSIDE of the existing relationship.

Married 34+ years, together 40+ years
Two awesome adult sons.
Dday 6/16 4-year LTA Survived
Restoration takes time.
"Circumstances don't make the man, they only reveal him to himself." ― Epictetus

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DevastatedDee ( member #59873) posted at 6:22 PM on Monday, November 22nd, 2021

Every single act of cruelty from one human being to another has an explanation. There are reasons it happened. The prison system is full of broken people who are able to be rehabilitated and who only did what they did to someone else because FOO issues, mental health issues, etc. There are reasons to feel sorry for and empathetic towards absolutely any human being on this earth. I'm watching Succession on HBO right now. Every single person on that show is a bad person doing bad things. And yet, you wind up picking favorites and pulling for them because every single person on that show has a redeeming quality or two or you hope maybe you're seeing signs of empathy or basic decency. Very few people who have ever lived are 100% bad. My problem with her doesn't steep from her showing that every person has a reason for what they did or that you can have empathy for them. My XWH was a serial cheater who fell into smoking crack because of the drug-addicted prostitutes that he spent time with. I can probably tell you why he turned out like he did and why he did the things he did and the reasons that you should have empathy for him. He is a pitiable person. He's a very broken person. He's a tragic person. None of this understanding his motivations makes a bit of difference when it comes to evaluating whether or not to stay in his circle of toxicity. Not one bit of empathy and understanding makes him not a "cheating slut" or a crack addict. IF he got and stayed clean and stopped using people and developed healthy relationships with others, he would be no longer fit those definitions. That would be a great move on his part. But there's no way he could ever change without owning what he was. I don't think drug addicts rehabilitate themselves by saying "It was totally understandable that I smoked crack and hurt everyone in my life. People are taking it too personally and overreacting to me lying and stealing from them. If they could understand my motivations, they'd be a lot less judgmental." The 12 steps help an addict not hate themselves, but accountability is pretty high up on the priority list. Owning who you were and what you did is essential to rehabilitation.

I guess I just don't see her point as I already understand that people have reasons for doing cruel things. To be selfish for a minute, I'm not sure why that would obligate me to give a shit about the reasons a person did something cruel to me. Maybe that's my line in the sand. If you do it to me, you lose my empathy. At that point, I have to focus on my own injury that's breaking me and take care of myself.

So if her point is that we should not be feeling such devastation because of the reasons they did it (though it's nearly a universal feeling and apparently not just some cultural thing)...I have no use for her. Literally, no use.

DDay: 06/07/2017
MH - RA on DDay.
Divorced a serial cheater (prostitutes and lord only knows who and what else).

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TheEnd ( member #72213) posted at 6:41 PM on Monday, November 22nd, 2021

hmmmm, I read her a long time ago so maybe I'm not remembering but I didn't mean I took her work as saying "everyone has their reasons, get over it."

Again, she's talking to people who want to save their marriages. You did not, and rightly so. You knew your line in the sand. But if a couple wants to reconcile, at some point this shitshow has to make some sense and the star of the shitshow needs to figure out how/why they are so fucked up they trashed their whole lives for a little strange. Whether she does it deftly or not, I do think that is her end.

I think she pisses people off because she underplays, or seems to, the trauma of it.

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emergent8 ( member #58189) posted at 6:47 PM on Monday, November 22nd, 2021

Idk maybe because I’ve fucked up enough in my life I have more compassion for fellow fuck ups who want to be and do better.

Yeah, this. Or even if I haven't fucked up - I have had near-misses, or I can see how if one thing would have been different, I could have. Some people come here and say that they NEVER could have cheated - that it simply isn't in their DNA. While I think that's true for some people, I don't think it is for me. If I'm being honest, before all of this, I was probably one of those people who could have cheated had the exact set of (wrong) circumstances existed. I appreciate that many people will judge me for that.

...I have no use for her. Literally, no use.

Yeah, Dee - that was kind of my point. You made the right choice for you and are happily divorced (which I totally agree was the right choice for you!). In the circumstances, I don't see how you would have any use for a marriage counsellor wink

Me: BS, Him: WS. Mid-late 30s.
Together 15 years, married 5 (11 m at D-Day).
D-Day: Feb 2017 (8 m PA with married COW).
Currently 4 years (and two kids) into R and optimistic.

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Wiseoldfool ( member #78413) posted at 7:29 PM on Monday, November 22nd, 2021

A cheating slut becomes an ex-cheating slut.

So I guess when your wife gets home today, tell her she’s graduated to ex-cheating slut and that’s the ceiling for her in your eyes.

Let us know how that goes.

Every secret you keep with your affair partner sustains the affair. Every lie you tell, every misunderstanding you permit, every deflection you pose, every omission you allow sustains the affair.

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Linus ( new member #79614) posted at 7:52 PM on Monday, November 22nd, 2021

I agree she minimizes the trauma to the betrayed. Interestingly, she seems silent on the effect on the kids. One would think that would be something she would address.

In general, I was turned off by the new agish word salad she uses. Her concepts could have been expressed in less pseudo-sophisticated plain English. Guess that is a stylistic objection, but it does sort of play into her message that other, more sophisticated evolved cultures view cheating as a much less serious offense( interestingly, I saw quite a few comments on her by European folks stating this is a misconception and that they are just as traumatized.)

Just seemed to me she not only ignored the trauma to the betrayed, but, also, that she looked down her nose at them as being less evolved and sophisticated.

One last thing. Although I do not put to much stock in credentials, hers are not impressive. I seem to recall her degree was in some sort of " play therapy" from a little known college. For a while she was claiming to be on the faculty at Columbia, but I believe that was debunked, as well.

I think her accent might impress some as showing knowledge and sophistication but her concepts seemed to me to be trite and pretty non- analytical. Pseudo suave stuff with not much substance.

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DevastatedDee ( member #59873) posted at 8:09 PM on Monday, November 22nd, 2021

Just seemed to me she not only ignored the trauma to the betrayed, but, also, that she looked down her nose at them as being less evolved and sophisticated.

Yeah, I've gotten that impression too. Which was funny to me, because I'm a long long way from being a prude. The reason this hurts people isn't because they're too naive or prudish about sex. People in BDSM poly relationships can be cheated on and experience the exact same level of trauma from it. I've comforted a friend who went through that and his agony was no less than anyone else's. We are very diverse people here with different religious and political beliefs from different countries and cultures, some divorcing and some working on R. And yet, here we are with the same trauma. Our trauma is the answer to why infidelity is so wrong. She can dance around it and play word games all she likes. Acts of exuberant defiance. Adultery is the revenge of deserted possibilities or whatever. Fact is that fucking strange is fun. No kidding. Color me shocked. The fuck that has to do with the trauma of infidelity is beyond me. Not just because I didn't try to R either. She seems to try and make R possible by downplaying the severity of the betrayal.

DDay: 06/07/2017
MH - RA on DDay.
Divorced a serial cheater (prostitutes and lord only knows who and what else).

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This0is0Fine ( member #72277) posted at 8:21 PM on Monday, November 22nd, 2021

Damn dude. Maybe you view your wife as a "cheating slut" or a "former cheating slut" but not everyone sees their wayward spouse that way. I understand it, don’t get me wrong, but that’s some projection.

My wife had an EA that she attempted to but failed to consummate as a PA, if she had in fact fucked ten dudes (not naming other BS's here) I probably would have labeled her that way. I don't know if I could have or would have attempted R in that case. But a liar and cheater yes. Ex-cheater/liar now. Former wayward is the term we use here.

Edit to add:

So I guess when your wife gets home today, tell her she’s graduated to ex-cheating slut and that’s the ceiling for her in your eyes.

Let us know how that goes.

See above. She is not unfamiliar with my view on these things. I see her as an ex-cheater and always will. That's what the loss of complete trust is all about.

You can sugar coat it if you like.

If your wife cheats on you again, is that just her flaw showing through again or a deal breaker? Do you just have to understand this is part of her humanity?

For me, it's a complete deal breaker and will forever in my mind label her as a cheater. Not an ex-cheater. And if she does it with more than one other dude in close time proximity a cheating slut.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 8:33 PM, Monday, November 22nd]

Love is not a measure of capacity for pain you are willing to endure for your partner.

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Linus ( new member #79614) posted at 8:32 PM on Monday, November 22nd, 2021

That is exactly what I mean by word salad, the " acts of exuberant defiance " type of deal. I have no idea what constitutes an " act of exuberant defiance" . Who talks like this? Who is exuberant while engaging in an act of defiance.

This type of smarmy, vapid language appeals to folks aspiring to look and sound evolved and hip/sophisticated. It has a neat, cool ring to it, but when one analyzes it, it is so phony. I cannot imagine any WS here trying to claim he or she was merely being exuberant and defiant vs just acting on lust or limerance or a search for ego stroking. She makes it sound like fucking others is just some type of reaction to an existential crisis.

I suppose that is more palatable to a cheater. My XW is now referring to her serial cheating as " inappropriate relationships where the chemistry became sexualized". At one point, she proposed we refer to that lengthy period of time when she was cheating as her " restless phase" . I think Esther would like this type of language. Made me want to throw up, however.

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Walkthestorm ( member #72157) posted at 8:49 PM on Monday, November 22nd, 2021

What I find interesting is that she 'talks' for the whole continent of Europe. I mean, Europe is a diverse continent with different cultures, languages and religions. I would argue that cheating is not acceptable or viewes as 'normal' in any country in Europe. Maybe people put up with it (in some countries more tah others) due to stigma or cultural expectations to keep the marriage intact at all costs but adultery is not seen upon kindly.

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ChamomileTea ( member #53574) posted at 8:51 PM on Monday, November 22nd, 2021

Esther Perel has entirely too many excuses for infidelity. She tends to blame the relationship, monogamy, social standards, etc. Her descriptive language includes such gasbaggery as "acts of exuberant defiance" and "quests for aliveness". The overall tone misses the mark in terms of REAL trauma, what it means to puke your guts up on the bathroom floor on dday, the decision to DNA your children, the YEARS of anxiety and depression we experience in recovery, the economic and emotional damage done to our kids, and the changes made to our bodies by trauma and maybe even STDs. She looks for every possible excuse but the one most of us who have experienced intimate betrayal understand... and that's CHARACTER, that's the lack of integrity and boundaries, the polluted worldview of the WS.

And yeah, I get it. The fact is that WS's are capable of recovery. But that means actually doing the work. That means drilling down to the damage and repairing the defects in character which allowed them to say "yes" to perfidy. Perel's stance isn't even, "hate the sin and love the sinner". Her view is more like, "the sin is natural and maybe you deserved it". No one deserves to be a victim of intimate betrayal. No one. There are other options for people if their relationship has become intolerable, other options if they are simply bored. Are those options easy?.. no. But what we're talking about here is DESTRUCTION, the destruction of families, of mental health, of economic and emotional security. How dare she minimize that destruction? She converts our pain into idiot blurbs celebrating her own quackery. No doubt there are tons of unrepentant cheaters who are validated in their choice to cheat and destroy, but that's not fixing what's broken.

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 8:54 PM, Monday, November 22nd]

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This0is0Fine ( member #72277) posted at 9:00 PM on Monday, November 22nd, 2021

Your going easy on her. She blameshifts the destruction of the family to the betrayed spouse for reacting with divorce. The affair is a mere transgression. The divorce is what is family breaking if you read the quote I provided.

Love is not a measure of capacity for pain you are willing to endure for your partner.

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Linus ( new member #79614) posted at 9:03 PM on Monday, November 22nd, 2021

That was pretty excellent, CT.

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DevastatedDee ( member #59873) posted at 9:26 PM on Monday, November 22nd, 2021

CT, that was right on. And yeah, the one who breaks up the family is the BS when they divorce instead of, I dunno, taking what is exciting about an affair and trying to make it happen at home by being more mysterious and desirable or whatever. You know, to keep them from getting bored again and cheating again because monogamy with the partner you love isn't sexy but people you don't truly know are.

I suppose that is more palatable to a cheater. My XW is now referring to her serial cheating as " inappropriate relationships where the chemistry became sexualized". At one point, she proposed we refer to that lengthy period of time when she was cheating as her " restless phase" . I think Esther would like this type of language. Made me want to throw up, however.

LORD that is amazing, lol. She could ghost write for Esther.

DDay: 06/07/2017
MH - RA on DDay.
Divorced a serial cheater (prostitutes and lord only knows who and what else).

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Wiseoldfool ( member #78413) posted at 9:29 PM on Monday, November 22nd, 2021

If your wife cheats on you again, is that just her flaw showing through again or a deal breaker? Do you just have to understand this is part of her humanity?

If my wife commits infidelity again, I will divorce her.

Every secret you keep with your affair partner sustains the affair. Every lie you tell, every misunderstanding you permit, every deflection you pose, every omission you allow sustains the affair.

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This0is0Fine ( member #72277) posted at 9:34 PM on Monday, November 22nd, 2021

Why would you do that? Is a second quest for aliveness one too many? Or does it demonstrate, dare I say it, a lack of character?

Edit to add: I'm quite understanding on the motivations of WS. I'm perhaps a Perel apologist in other threads. I say it's worth reading after you are already decently in to R. It's just very dangerous stuff if you are in JFO, or a newly caught WS.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 9:40 PM, Monday, November 22nd]

Love is not a measure of capacity for pain you are willing to endure for your partner.

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M1965 ( member #57009) posted at 10:21 PM on Monday, November 22nd, 2021

In 'Mating in Captivity', EP wrote:

Despite a 50 percent divorce rate for first marriages and 65 percent the second time around; despite the staggering frequency of affairs; despite the fact that monogamy is a ship sinking faster than anyone can bail it out, we continue to cling to the wreckage with absolute faith in its structural soundness.

That strikes me as a strange thing for someone plying their trade as a marriage counselor to say. If she genuinely believes what she wrote, she should be campaigning for the abolition of marriage, and celebrating divorce as 'liberation' from the captivity she named a book after.

To take another quote, affairs are given equivalence to a prolonged absence or an argument - when those are very, very different things - and then given credit for 'igniting' desire:

The grand illusion of committed love is that we think our partners are ours. In truth, their separateness is unassailable, and their mystery is forever ungraspable. As soon as we can begin to acknowledge this, sustained desire becomes a real possibility. It’s remarkable to me how a sudden threat to the status quo an affair, an infatuation, a prolonged absence, or even a really good fight) can suddenly ignite desire. There’s nothing like the fear of loss to make those old shoes look new again.

Going by everything I have experienced, been told by others who have experienced infidelity, or read on the subject, affairs do not ignite or boost desire in the betrayed person. Nor is there an equivalence between an affair and a prolonged absence. Fear of loss may make a wayward person reassess the value of the marriage or family that discovery of their affair may destroy, but that is like saying that dropping a Ming vase is a great way to heighten your awareness of its value. Where infidelity is concerned, the vase is jointly owned, but shattered by just one person, who never asked the co-owner if it would be okay to test its durability.

Difficult issues are simply ignored, as if they do not exist, or because they would blow many of her theories off the rails. An individual's 'mystery' is celebrated, but the deliberate deception of a trusting partner is not addressed as a dysfunctional way to relate to others, or a denial of the betrayed person's right to honesty and agency in their lives. And that is the problem; infidelity is always about two people, but the vast majority of what EP writes is about the individual. It becomes a celebration of selfishness. It is like writing about the adrenalin rush, boost in confidence, and financial benefit that a person can achieve by robbing a convenience store, without acknowledging the impact on the people who were robbed.

She never acknowledges that the 'gain' and 'growth' for the individual who cheats, which she celebrates in reams of mystical, insubstantial language, is paid for by the pain and emotional damage of other individuals. She exonerates the perpetrator without acknowledging or referencing the victim, or addressing the key issues of integrity and deliberate deception, which are huge factors in infidelity. It is incredibly selective writing, containing many arguments and premises that depend on ignoring and sometimes even denying the rights of people damaged by the actions of an individual. It exists in a kind of theoretical fantasy land, as if life is a video game for one person to enjoy, in which not only is there is no accountability, but where there should be no accountability. That is not real life, and it is not real relationships.

[This message edited by M1965 at 4:53 PM, Tuesday, November 23rd]

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gmc94 ( member #62810) posted at 10:53 PM on Monday, November 22nd, 2021

FWIW, at the time I read "State of Affairs" I was desperately desiring R and not D.

Hated the book when I read it - guess I could say my gut was SCREAMING that it was bullshite.

Today, I have much more empathy for my WH, but still think Perel is a wayward apologist and would never recommend anything she's done to any new BS. The last few posts from CT, ThisIsSoFine, DevDee and M1965 pretty well sum it up, with a particular shout out to CT for this:

Perel's stance isn't even, "hate the sin and love the sinner". Her view is more like, "the sin is natural and maybe you deserved it".

One thing that I always thought about (and I know is controversial - including on SI) is would Perel have the same stance if she were talking about sex absent INFORMED consent (aka rape or sexual assault)? If my spouse had sex with me while I was passed out, would that be oK? BC I honestly don't see the difference when it comes to sex with the BS while a PA is ongoing and I am unable to provide informed consent. Many BS get STDs from their WS's antics - but maybe that's just some the defiant exuberance speaking....

Or how about the drunk driver (perhaps a better example) that did not INTEND to drive the wrong way and hit/kill a family with their car... I'm quite confident that driver had all kinds of "reasons" for the bad choices/behavior - which are mostly irrelevant to the bereaved survivors.

Put bluntly, infidelity can have very real and horrific consequences - to everyone (including the WS, the kids, extended family, etc.), that Perel simply ignores. If I'd been told before dday that I could get PTSD from this shitshow, I'd have laughed my arse off and called those who believed that emotional fools. Not so much any more :) And I'd bet that if my WH had been told that discovery of his extramarital activities would end up with him putting a rope around his neck, he'd have had a similar disdain (and -again- probably not so much anymore). Let's not forget that I'm not the only BS on SI with these suicidal experiences.

Ignoring those consequences, like PTSD, does not make any of it magically go away. FWIW, the hard work of addressing my own trauma led me to be a more empathetic person (generally AND WRT my WH - tho my WH appears to be absolutely incapable of finding empathy for anyone other than himself - another COMMON problem with waywards that Perel appears to think is irrelevant - feeling alive is great, but feeling alive w/o any empathy for those who may be paying a price FAR worse than anything that caused the WS to cheat to begin with.... really? )

I read it at a time I wanted R (probably even posted in R). Things just didn't turn out like that for me... all the whys in the world don't amount to a hill of beans with a spouse who can't find honesty or empathy (which IMO Perel's glossing over exacerbates) ... as another poster said, one cannot change what one cannot face or admit or manage to CHANGE.

ETA: I also don't give a damn about the "social constructs" of monogamy. I have no issue with polyamory (and before I met my WH, had a long term relationship that began w/o monogamy, which was all fine til my SO discovered I took it at face value... guess it was OK for him, but not for me, so I stopped seeing others and engaged in monogamy bc it's what he wanted and I wanted the relationship). I've known a ton of folks with "open" marriages (the 1st one I knew of was my BFF in my tween/teen years). FWIW, I can't think of a single one of those Ms that survived longer than 10-15 years. IMO, monogamy is a negotiated part of any relationship (and one that was VERY specifically addressed and negotiated when my WH had is FIRST A, of the ONS variety). If one wants it and the other doesn't, maybe it's not a good fit. If either of my kids wanted a poly/non monogamous M, I'd be all for them and very supportive.

As we say all the time - it's not so much the sex/A that kills the M.... it's the LIES (which Perel doesn't seem to be interested in talking about).

[This message edited by gmc94 at 5:07 PM, November 22nd, 2021 (Monday)]

M >25yrs/grown kids
DD1 1994 ONS prostitute
DD2 2018 exGF1 10+yrEA & 10yrPA... + exGF2 EA forever & "made out" 2017
9/18 WH hung himself- died but revived

It's rude to say "I love you" with a mouthful of lies

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RealityBlows ( member #41108) posted at 10:56 PM on Monday, November 22nd, 2021

acts of exuberant defiance" and "quests for aliveness".

Translation:

"Lookin for some strange, going to succumb to my primal impulses cuz I'm bored with marriage, integrity, morals, and all that crap"

Society is getting really good these days at excusing and enabling immoral behavior.

I thought marriage was an institution of an evolved species yet, if you get all butt hurt-like Westerners, when your spouse affairs, it's because you're less evolved?

Do I have that right?

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 11:01 PM, Monday, November 22nd]

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DevastatedDee ( member #59873) posted at 11:34 PM on Monday, November 22nd, 2021

I mean, this shit:

"Love enjoys knowing everything about you; desire needs mystery. Love likes to shrink the distance that exists between me and you, while desire is energized by it. If intimacy grows through repetition and familiarity, eroticism is numbed by repetition."

Your boring ass changing diapers and paying bills is very unsexy. Tending to your physical ailments is getting way too much information about you to find you erotic. There's no passion in refinancing a mortgage. Every day is the same, get up, go to work, come home, dinner, tend to kids. Clean the house. Dull. You unmysterious boring person whom I know too well to ever get turned on by.

Why doesn't she just endorse being single and having a string of ONS? That would be sexy as fuck. Hot. Passion, mystery, you don't even know if that's his real name. Did she give you her real number to call her later? Who knows? Sexy. So sexy and mysterious.

Thing is, sex is really important in a marriage and you do need to keep working on it to keep it alive. But you are going to get to know one another really well. You are going to do things like "look at this spot on my butt...do you think that looks like skin cancer?". You are going to see each other at your absolute worst. You will have a stomach virus in one another's presence. You are going to talk a lot and get to know reams of information about each other. You'll start to finish each other's sentences. You'll watch one another age and change. You will deal with all of the drudgery of life together. Your sex life will be different. You'll mix it up sometimes, but you pretty much do know what the other likes and what the other is likely to do in bed. And is she suggesting at some points that you should become more mysterious to one another after infidelity to keep it hot?? Because that shit is NOT what you need after infidelity. There was plenty of mystery going on behind your back to keep you on your toes for years even if boring and repetitious reassert themselves. I guess for the cheater it does get pretty mysterious after DDay as they wonder whether or not you'll divorce them. Maybe that's why the BS is suddenly so sexy.

This is childish, though. Emotionally mature people do understand that marriage is about more than a regular booty call. It does involve comfort and trust and empathy and taking care of one another. You can have amazing sex in a marriage, but it won't feel like it did in the first few months of the relationship. You choose monogamy and understand that you're giving up that feeling of new sex with new people. You trade that in for all of the valuable things that come with sharing your life with that person. You don't get to bond that hard with someone and then cheat because they aren't mysterious enough anymore.

"It’s remarkable to me how a sudden threat to the status quo an affair, an infatuation, a prolonged absence, or even a really good fight) can suddenly ignite desire. There’s nothing like the fear of loss to make those old shoes look new again."

And for fuck's sake, I'll try all kinds of things sexually to keep things feeling more fresh and exciting, but I don't want to start a fight just so things feel off-balance and sexy again. I don't want to be cheated on or have my partner get infatuated with another person. I don't want to have to break up every so often to keep things new. Those things don't get my libido going in the first place. That sounds toxic as hell. Sahara desert over here with stuff like that.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 11:42 PM, Monday, November 22nd]

DDay: 06/07/2017
MH - RA on DDay.
Divorced a serial cheater (prostitutes and lord only knows who and what else).

posts: 4633   ·   registered: Jul. 27th, 2017
id 8699707
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