Newest Member: AcesEights

Wayward Side :
Trying to get better and be worthy

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Lostgirl410 ( member #71112) posted at 7:27 PM on Wednesday, October 20th, 2021

She's said I am regurgitating whatever I read, but I try (sometimes fail) to accept that without being too defensive

That's because you are. It's shines through in every response you have given here. You are trying to be who you think an internet forum of strangers wants you to be. Actually, it comes across somewhat like you're hoping she will read here, and "see" all the positive things you claim to be doing. Who are you really though? A people pleaser maybe? You can't "please" the wayward forum and expect it to end in R with your wife. We see through it, and so will she.

BW saw this post and thread and is upset and asking me to leave the house. I've been staying in a spare room. There are things that I haven't included about our early relationship, my lack of enthusiasm, lack of drive or purpose compared to her and a lot of things.

She feels like I am full of vitriol and have no empathy.

I don't know if that's how my posts read - it isn't how I wanted them to.


I am trying to share my perspective or side of why might I have done it.

Actions over words. You betrayed your wife when you cheated on her with your co-worker, and you betrayed her again when you came here posting half truths while masquerading as a "model wayward" actively trying to fix yourself. A blatant lie of omission is still a blatant lie.

I have yet to see you fully own your betrayal. "I left some things out" is completely different than "I did ALL of these SPECIFIC shitty things to my wife." Instead I see you thanking everyone else for their posts. (Pleasing)

Again I ask, who are YOU?

You have to be able to face yourself, accept all of the things you've done, and stop trying to be the "good guy" before either one of you will ever have the chance to heal. I'm getting the impression that the only reason you were able to drop the AP so quickly is that you haven't had to actually face her.

Your actions were real. They caused pain, a lot of pain. You won't ever be the good guy in this story regardless of how you try to spin it.

Until you can acknowledge you are the bad guy in your own story, you are accomplishing nothing more than trying to control the outcome. You can't control the outcome. Until you stop trying, you're actively choosing to cause your wife (and yourself) more pain.

posts: 112   ·   registered: Jul. 27th, 2019
id 8694201
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 ShatteredImage (original poster new member #79477) posted at 11:16 PM on Wednesday, October 20th, 2021

I don't want to be who a group of internet strangers want me to be; I do however want and appreciate their advice. The things I indicated are what I'm doing, I don't want to oversell and maybe I need to reread my posts because I could be deluding myself - I'm reading books, reading primarily this forum, have read specific reddit posts but haven't posted/participate there; I'm also watching some videos mainly on affairrecovery, which I had found in googling before someone recommended it here and am in IC. I did a few other things that I outlined in my first post I believe. I'm looking at some of the topics that come up in IC and have shared them here - not looking to pass blame to my family/parents or any of that, but I believe it is part of the equation.

I AM a people pleaser; I think I acknowledged that somewhere but offering thanks for advice doesn't seem like pandering to me. People who post here, like one mentioned earlier, are doing this out of altruism to some degree and know they could be speaking to a troll.

I get it - your suggestions don't mean anything if I can't live it. I own what I did was shitty, deceptive, horrible, truth shattering and so many more things; I have that shame and self loathing but I haven't yet been able to relinquished all reflex to be defensive when BW and I speak. I can be aware of the reflex, but I can't just stop or control it overnight. I can try and keep trying. I didn't want my wife to read this because of course I shared things that at one point I think make sense if we have a shot at recovery to discuss but not before then. I do want to reconcile if at all possible and message has been received and understood that that's out of my control. That's a hard pill to swallow but I get it.

I am the bad guy, who is now trying to change - I am harboring hope beyond all reason for R. I had an experience today that happened to BW last week that made me realize that I may have sympathy but lack in empathy. Someone at work asked what was going on with me, I seem distracted and am less available and preoccupied. I instinctively deflected and talked about other things that were on my mind, but of course THIS is what is on my mind. This is why I am not as present. Now BW has had this experience at work for a few weeks, I couldn't put myself in her shoes fully and envision how she must have felt wanting to minimize it. Maybe she didn't want to minimize it and that's me transferring how I want to keep work/home separate but I suddenly understood because I had the experience she already did. It clicked for me in that scenario, but I still have difficulty placing myself in her shoes on a daily basis. I am trying, but mostly failing at that so I focus on me and trying to learn/understand but sometimes understanding takes as some people call it a 2x4 hitting you. I had something like that today and realized oh s**t she must have been very uncomfortable and then it went further. She isn't wearing her ring, she must be having to make excuses or hey recent pictures of events don't have him in them. The only way she might be avoiding some of these topics is because her mother has been ill recently, so people presume the worst in that regard.

I get that I'm the offender and maybe I am looking for some level of confirmation that I am on the right path if there is to be any hope. I do not want to cause her more pain, nor do I want to cause my kids more pain. It upsets me that I can't just take all the negative emotions into myself because while there are bouts of anger, sadness, disbelief and more if I could just take it in maybe I could handle it or give them a semblance of their lives back. This probably speaks to control issues, which I have many - alcoholic father and wanting to be in control of myself. Didnt drink until later in life and discovered I have a high tolerance - typical of alcoholics - but never tried any other drugs.

I also am beginning to realize WTF do I lack empathy or am I unable to express it, or is it there and I suppress it now because of a flood of other stronger self-serving reactions. I think whatever it is means that I am selfish and I can accept that, at a simple level I was an only child and grandchild and had praise heaped upon me, but I also asked my IC straight up if I had some narcissistic disorder or something. He sort of shook it off as people often try to self diagnose and label and we took the discussion into related areas. I'd like to say I'm in shock but let's face it, I've done a f*ing crappy job of communicating throughout my M and have been slow to truly adopt change whether that's reading more, exercise, eating well or any other number of things which is part of the reason behind Atomic Habits in my reading.

[This message edited by ShatteredImage at 12:09 AM, Thursday, October 21st]

D-Day 9/11/21 - 9/19/21WS(me 40sM)Status: IC, reading and forums

posts: 27   ·   registered: Oct. 13th, 2021
id 8694253
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cheatingisabuse ( new member #75651) posted at 5:56 AM on Thursday, October 21st, 2021

Where did you two land on you posting here? I’d hope that you’re on the same page.

And if she is who I think she is, then yes you did leave some stuff out. Is any of the following incorrect?

1. You involved your kids in your affair

2. You called the cops on your wife

3. You had no intention of stopping/telling her about it/bought gifts for ap/did a hell of a job hiding your tracks/ap is your direct report at work, not just a colleague (Seems more involved than a pure sex and ego exchange)

I think you need to own what you did before you heal and this navel gazing is not it.

And for someone who seems so broken up about his wife, you don’t seem to mention her much, other than as some dominant force in your life that you were resentful of. Oh and reactive. I wonder what has been going on for the better part of two years that would make her emotionally volatile?

[This message edited by cheatingisabuse at 5:57 AM, Thursday, October 21st]

posts: 18   ·   registered: Oct. 13th, 2020   ·   location: California
id 8694286
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nekonamida ( member #42956) posted at 6:12 AM on Thursday, October 21st, 2021

I'm confused. Has she asked you to leave? And if so, it wouldn't exactly be surprising if she took off her wedding ring, right? She's detaching.

Whatever she's told you she needs, do it. If that's space, move out. Make this as easy for her as possible. It's what's better for your kids too. If they have been involved, they may need to talk to a therapist too. Crowding her, insisting on staying, begging, or guilting her with the kids WILL NOT work in your favor and will push her away more.

posts: 5065   ·   registered: Mar. 31st, 2014   ·   location: United States
id 8694289
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WalkinOnEggshelz ( Administrator #29447) posted at 12:12 PM on Thursday, October 21st, 2021

This is just a reminder not to pull information from other Forums/Threads for discussion here.

Me: WS late 40’s
Him: BH (HoldingTogether)
D Day: 7/24/2010
If you keep asking people to give you the benefit of the doubt, they will eventually start to doubt your benefit.

posts: 14481   ·   registered: Aug. 27th, 2010   ·   location: Texas
id 8694307
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 ShatteredImage (original poster new member #79477) posted at 12:59 PM on Thursday, October 21st, 2021

cheatingisabuse - the items you mentions are correct but lack details (plural vs singular, time and context but that doesn't matter much in the end).

I didn't want this thread to rehash the details; the whole A was vile and stupid and self-serving. The first post I did a better job of staying on topic - perhaps I was more guarded or focused before you start replying and become sidetracked into the reply instead of purpose.

An important thing you asked is are we aligned on me posting - I just checked and she doesn't intend to visit this site and doesn't care, also said she is not taking ownership for my growth.

For another poster, yes she asked me to leave after seeing this thread yesterday, but it had been a topic mentioned many times - I tried to look at an apartment yesterday but wont be ready for a few weeks.

And for someone who seems so broken up about his wife, you don’t seem to mention her much, other than as some dominant force in your life that you were resentful of

This thread was intended to be about what I was doing to understand the why, the who I had become and how to change. I don't shirk my responsibility but why would I have let those feelings develop - why couldn't I debate or defend my position and instead of bottling up inside. I have to take what she says and what I hear here and look at my behavior, if I am focusing on growth in one area (say digging into the why) but completely missing my ability to be empathetic in so many important scenarios I should know and recognize that.

[This message edited by ShatteredImage at 1:00 PM, Thursday, October 21st]

D-Day 9/11/21 - 9/19/21WS(me 40sM)Status: IC, reading and forums

posts: 27   ·   registered: Oct. 13th, 2021
id 8694311
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 ShatteredImage (original poster new member #79477) posted at 1:49 PM on Thursday, October 21st, 2021

I'm going to take a break from posting at least for a bit - have to analyze how I've gotten so far off the original goal of my post and the need or compulsion to reply.


One thing I could use help with - how do I know if I'm having the right discussions with the therapist?
What is typical as this is new to me?
How do I know he will catch me if I try to manipulate or am not feeding him BS - I'd hope they are used to and trained for it, but I want the time spent to be useful. I worry that my behavior may be so ingrained that I don't see it or present it so I can get the help. The good thing is BS attended the first session as a level set so that's some confidence that he has seen the other side.

[This message edited by ShatteredImage at 5:00 PM, Thursday, October 21st]

D-Day 9/11/21 - 9/19/21WS(me 40sM)Status: IC, reading and forums

posts: 27   ·   registered: Oct. 13th, 2021
id 8694315
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foreverlabeled ( member #52070) posted at 4:46 PM on Thursday, October 21st, 2021

Hi ShatteredImage.

I'll admit I haven't read through the entirety of this thread and have skimmed mostly. A couple things have caught my eye.

I want to say first that there isn't anything inherently wrong with taking your newfound knowledge and applying it. It very well will sounds like you are just repeating it, but if it resonates with you and you are using that new knowledge to help yourself and not manipulate the situation, well, how else would we go about it?

We introduce ourselves or are introduced to new concepts and information, and because it is new, it needs to be practiced. You have to. Nothing came naturally to me.. if you see yourself in the things you read and the videos you watch, and if then you come here or go to your BS and then express the ways it resonates, that is the point. To work through your shit and get your shit together. I guess what I'm getting at is that we have to start somewhere.

Don't get discouraged.

I’m frantic

Of course you are. One month out is still very early, its scary times for sure. I think you are doing great considering. Dday and the months that followed were no doubt some of the most stressful and terrifying moments of my life. Remember to keep calm and show courage. Step into her pain with her. And use the book HTHYSHFYA like it's your Bible. Its a delicate balance of helping your BS and working on you. I will say at one month in, most of your energy should go to her, you won't change over night you've got the rest of your life to get that right.

33 divorced Madhatter
Time is no ones friend, nor their enemy. It moves forward at its own fixed pace, careless of our wants to speed it or slow it.

posts: 2535   ·   registered: Mar. 1st, 2016   ·   location: southeast
id 8694353
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foreverlabeled ( member #52070) posted at 6:37 PM on Thursday, October 21st, 2021

How do I know he will catch me if I try to manipulate or am not feeding him BS 

oh that is really simple, don't try to manipulate him. You need to look at your therapist as if he were your doctor. If you had picked up an STD from your affair would you lie to a doctor and hope it away? You understand it doesn't work that way. So, you take your therapist seriously too. You lose absolutely nothing by being honest and explaining why you are there, and the things you wish to see change within yourself. You either want that change or you don't.

I went through at least 5 in the first 3 years. First one tried to place blame equally among us. I already knew that wasn't the case, I fired her. Second one was decent but still wasn't quite right. Third time was a charm but she retired.. but see how I took initiative of my healing? How I didn't settle? Just do that too, ya know?

33 divorced Madhatter
Time is no ones friend, nor their enemy. It moves forward at its own fixed pace, careless of our wants to speed it or slow it.

posts: 2535   ·   registered: Mar. 1st, 2016   ·   location: southeast
id 8694376
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gmc94 ( member #62810) posted at 9:07 PM on Thursday, October 21st, 2021

I'm with foreverlabeled on the IC stuff.

I would ask if the therapist is familiar with HTHYSHFYA - it's Ok if they aren't (tho if they represent as infidelity specialists, I would ask what books they find helpful, and then likely post here on SI for feedback - you'll likely get some good, bad and indifferent, but I do believe it's helpful to hear from others, WS and BS alike, on that kind of thing). If they aren't familiar with How to Help Your Spouse, then go over the rebuilder list and get their take.

There's another book, called "Out of the Doghouse" that was written specifically for WH. I'm almost positive there is a thread about that one on the Book Forum here on SI. I agreed with 90% or so - my main "beef" was the author continues to advocate for withholding of info / details. That MAY work for some BW, but not for others and I'm a firm believer that the BS gets any and ALL info that THEY want (not everyone agrees - the point is what does YOUR BS want. One thing to consider along these lines is that by having an A, the WS has taken away the BS's AGENCY. So when the WS says they won't do X or Y or Z bc their IC or a book or [fill in blank] says so, it can be really triggering and cause more damage than the truth itself). Anyhow, that book may also provide some guidance.

And the bottom line IMO is, as ForeverLabeled has said, no IC will be able to help much (if at all) without absolute honesty and the ability to be vulnerable with them.

M >25yrs/grown kids
DD1 1994 ONS prostitute
DD2 2018 exGF1 10+yrEA & 10yrPA... + exGF2 EA forever & "made out" 2017
9/18 WH hung himself- died but revived

It's rude to say "I love you" with a mouthful of lies

posts: 3509   ·   registered: Feb. 22nd, 2018
id 8694398
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SI Staff ( Moderator #10) posted at 12:44 AM on Friday, October 22nd, 2021

The Stop Sign has been added to this thread. Betrayed Spouses are no longer able to post.

posts: 10000   ·   registered: May. 30th, 2002
id 8694438
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cheatingisabuse ( new member #75651) posted at 7:27 AM on Friday, October 22nd, 2021

WS only

[This message edited by SI Staff at 11:37 AM, Friday, October 22nd]

posts: 18   ·   registered: Oct. 13th, 2020   ·   location: California
id 8694464
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cheatingisabuse ( new member #75651) posted at 5:15 PM on Friday, October 22nd, 2021

I'm not a BS and nothing in my last message was inflammatory. If this is the kind of censoring you engage in, I want nothing to do with this board.

posts: 18   ·   registered: Oct. 13th, 2020   ·   location: California
id 8694640
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BraveSirRobin ( member #69242) posted at 4:20 AM on Saturday, October 23rd, 2021

If you're not a BS, then all your prior posts in JFO violate the guidelines. One way or the other, you've been breaking a fundamental rule of the site.

WW/BW 50s (Me)
BH/WH 50s (TimeSpiral)

posts: 2136   ·   registered: Dec. 27th, 2018
id 8694745
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 ShatteredImage (original poster new member #79477) posted at 11:52 PM on Monday, November 1st, 2021

Been a while since I replied here. I keep making mistakes and falling into the habit of saving my skin. When I do come clean it's because of a direct question that I feel like I have to respond to, but I'm always afraid to do so knowing it will lead to another disagreement and I know this is wrong. I accept my accountability and this is all me - the affair was my action and my wrong doing, but the things that I've read are hard to turn into action and live. I know it's the wrong path to take and I am trying but I'm not doing enough.

She asked me to take a polygraph and I want to now as I believe all the meetings and gifts have been disclosed. She wants me to recover all WhatsApp and Telegram messages as a condition of not getting a divorce. I don't think it's possible - I emailed their support via the websites, but WhatsApp indicated they don't have copies once delivered and it's impossible; telegram didn't respond. She said to hire a lawyer and sue Facebook and Telegram if needed to request the messages and spend any amount.

I am in the house at the moment, but she wants me to leave and cut all contact with her and the kids. I just can't walk out on them and she says I'm putting myself first. I'm so turned around I don't know what's real. She had a dream that I had bought something from an expensive store, which prompted the questions - she can't sleep, can't trust me and I can't blame her. I'm so afraid, I can't undo what I've done and I don't want to conceal things any longer.

What I've done wrong:

1. Trickle truth around specifically gifts I gave AP.

2. My timeline was a mess and light on details, omitted a meeting entirely in the second draft too.

3. Lack of showing empathy and regularly reaching out about her pain

4. I haven't been able to really put BS first, I keep trying to save myself. I can justify to myself that I'm doing this because I want to move into the repair process but it's a selfish reason.

5. I haven't looked for a new job, aside from an interview that was already underway. The AP works for me and there is someone she reports to now but I need to get out. I know this.

I'm struggling to find the time to go through everything. She let me stay in the house on the condition of brutal honesty and don't drink unless she is there. I failed on the first by being a coward.

[This message edited by ShatteredImage at 1:13 AM, Tuesday, November 2nd]

D-Day 9/11/21 - 9/19/21WS(me 40sM)Status: IC, reading and forums

posts: 27   ·   registered: Oct. 13th, 2021
id 8696263
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lostindenial ( new member #79420) posted at 12:26 AM on Tuesday, November 2nd, 2021

WS only

[This message edited by SI Staff at 1:37 AM, Tuesday, November 2nd]

posts: 22   ·   registered: Sep. 20th, 2021   ·   location: FL
id 8696272
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 ShatteredImage (original poster new member #79477) posted at 5:26 PM on Wednesday, November 3rd, 2021

Putting into action the suggestions is hard, I’m trying and ask my therapist about specific scenarios or recommendations I see here or in books as he’s met my BW during the first session to get her side. He suggested a joint therapy session with him or her therapist, but she doesn’t want to do that nor does her therapist without going into more detail. I also gave my therapist permission to discuss me with her therapist if that was more agreeable or would be beneficial. Communication between BW and I is challenged - I certainly deserve blame there.

She agreed to let me talk to the kids, they’ll decide when they want to see me. I am in an extended stay hotel as there’s no reasonably priced rentals with short term leases available nearby (not a bad thing necessarily - fewer steps to get internet/utilities etc). Being asked to move out follows my latest timeline that omitted some gift details and details around a meeting. Therapist and I discussed this over my Monday session - he expressed concerns around requests for information and her ability to process it emotionally but said if it's what she wants so be it, but things will remain very raw. When I did share, she asked me to leave because I hadn’t been brutally honest which was a condition of staying in the house along with only drinking when she is present, unsure of the full motivation behind that - don't drink often.

Some resources suggest sharing details in therapy, is that a better forum to have a moderator? Anything I say is of course considered a lie or partial truth -I understand why, I've proven to be untrustworthy- she checked my bags as I left to make sure I hadn’t taken something else although what I'm not sure. Lots of fear/reasons for my behavior but they'd just come across as defensive because that's probably what's in my head, which is why I discussed in IC.

I had agreed to do a polygraph, but she doesn’t want that any longer. I feel so many things I can’t understand - sleep is hard, I can fall asleep but wake up. I have put in downtime for my phone so emails don’t wake me, she isn’t sleeping either. Not eating much but that and sleep seem to be common issues.

She doesn’t feel anything has changed, that the other things like a postnup, account passwords, open phone policy etc don’t mean anything. She asks me to login here (SI) in order to see my activity I presume - I'm fine with that and do it without hesitation, just like handing over my phone. These seem like table stakes.

She is also upset that AP’s spouse, who she was in contact with, didn’t share some data with her - so she feels alone and isolated. AP and her husband are trying to reconcile and move on in MC. I’m worried for BW’s lack of support, I passed messages to AP’s husband to get a personal email address of AP so BW could send an email. I don’t like being in the middle, I don’t want to talk to him or hear AP in the background but also want him to share what BW has asked (basically the timeline he’s constructed) and have a conversation. This sounds so disjoint as I write it - that’s how life has been recently. I have to go back to work now but will try to review this later and make it more intelligible.

[This message edited by ShatteredImage at 11:11 PM, Wednesday, November 3rd]

D-Day 9/11/21 - 9/19/21WS(me 40sM)Status: IC, reading and forums

posts: 27   ·   registered: Oct. 13th, 2021
id 8696634
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BraveSirRobin ( member #69242) posted at 8:46 PM on Wednesday, November 3rd, 2021

Well, you're right about one thing, and that's that you don't belong in the middle of your wife's appeals to the OBS. It's a shame that he doesn't want to answer her questions, but ultimately, once he's made sure she's aware of the infidelity, he needs to do what's right for him. He didn't order up this shit sandwich any more than your BW did. The last thing he needs is unsolicited contact from the man who was fucking his wife. You still work with AP, correct? Prodding her and her husband seems like an excellent way to provoke him to report you to HR. Since you were in a supervisory role, it's possible (even probable) that he could get you fired. If he's told your BW that he's done talking about it with her, it's time to leave him alone, especially if you need your income to pay for that extended stay hotel.

As far as having joint therapeutic conversations, it sounds to me like your BW isn't interested in being in a room with you right now and doesn't want to be forced into anything that looks like marriage counseling. There's nothing you can't tell her in writing as easily as you could in person -- in fact, speaking for myself, I was far more able to be honest on paper. Writing has several advantages: you can't change your story later without forcing yourself to admit that you lied; you won't chicken out because you're trying to avoid a volatile response; she can review it as many times as she wants and develop further questions.

Finally, it's a red flag to me if your therapist is actually suggesting that you withhold information from your BW because she might react emotionally. She has her own therapist to help her manage that. She doesn't need you and your therapist gatekeeping her. She needs answers so she can decide what she wants to do with her own life. If you don't like her reactions, I'm afraid that's a consequence you'll have to find a way to live with.

WW/BW 50s (Me)
BH/WH 50s (TimeSpiral)

posts: 2136   ·   registered: Dec. 27th, 2018
id 8696660
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 ShatteredImage (original poster new member #79477) posted at 11:06 PM on Wednesday, November 3rd, 2021

You managed to interpret a lot of my drivel, well done. The therapist wasn't suggesting I withhold, more so think about what you're (me) afraid of and ask me questions. He said she's going to have trouble processing and it's going to be hard, but he was all for disclosure.

And to the OBS, yes still work with AP and OBS certainly doesn't want to hear from me. It's been abundantly clear, and I don't want to interact with him either.

I find writing helps more than talking - get tongue tied and it gives me time as well, sometimes just writing for me.

[This message edited by ShatteredImage at 11:13 PM, Wednesday, November 3rd]

D-Day 9/11/21 - 9/19/21WS(me 40sM)Status: IC, reading and forums

posts: 27   ·   registered: Oct. 13th, 2021
id 8696683
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MrCleanSlate ( member #71893) posted at 11:10 PM on Wednesday, November 3rd, 2021

Shattered,

Been a while since I posted, but you remind me so much of how I was before my D-Day.

Trickle Truth is so hard to come back from. You need to stop trying to cover your own ass (you're not protecting her lets be clear on that) and be honest with yourself and your BW.

I keep making mistakes and falling into the habit of saving my skin. When I do come clean it's because of a direct question that I feel like I have to respond to, but I'm always afraid to do so knowing it will lead to another disagreement and I know this is wrong. I accept my accountability and this is all me - the affair was my action and my wrong doing, but the things that I've read are hard to turn into action and live. I know it's the wrong path to take and I am trying but I'm not doing enough.

If it were so easy to change there wouldn't be a need for this site, or counselling for that matter. Yes you are still in self preservation mode and fucking up left and right. But you are also seeing that you need to change that. Choices....

I just passed 6 years since D-Day and I still prowl around here to learn a thing or two. It takes time and effort to learn how to be honest after lying about most everything for too long. On D-Day something in me just said 'fuck it, spill the beans now and lay myself prostrate in front of my spouse and be vulnerable and open, since there ain't nothing left to lose'. That was a starting point for me. I've seen a few waywards come to that realization after much trickle truth and for some it was too late to fix their M, but they still fixed themselves and perhaps helped their betrayed deal with things better as well.

I was never one to read many of the self help books. I trolled here which helped. The truth is I went to an IC and I was brutally honest. Maybe for the first time, I was honest with myself. Man there was a lot of shit to unpack under an awful lot of rocks.

Best thing you can do it write out a real time line. Don't leave anything out. Do it in pencil on paper, or use a word processor doesn't matter. Then go back and re-read it several times. And add to it, and then add some more. Then print it out and give it to your BS.

Also, look up this first pinned post on the wayward forum - it has some rally good tips that might help you.

WH 52,my BW is 51
1 year PA, D-Day Oct 2015
Admitted all, but there is no 'clean slate'. In R and working it everyday
“To build may have to be the slow and laborious task of years. To destroy can be the thoughtless act of a single day

posts: 669   ·   registered: Oct. 21st, 2019   ·   location: Canada
id 8696684
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