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perception vs. truth

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steadychevy posted 4/13/2021 17:03 PM


• She said she told him a firm ‘NO’ to that, but that throughout the dinner party later that night that he was playing footsies with her under the table. She says it was ‘pretty much the unluckiest thing in the world’ that I happened to turn back at the very moment he put his hand through hers. She says he initiated that too.

Funny she doesn’t mention that she made the odd seating plan that ensured they would be seated together

From asc1226.

According to her letter to you this happened right at the beginning (questionable, but so what) while she was seriously helping this guy solve his marital problems. Problems unknown to his wife. So why was she so adamant about the seating arrangement. The thing about just a very unlucky break you saw this only and brief hand hold. She was adamant about the seating arrangement and fought you on it, Absolon, IIRC.

She was thrilled with passionate kisses at the best friends place behind OBS's back. Thrilled to fuck in your house/bed. Serial cheater. Two fiancées down. Nothing to work with or risk here.

Stevesn posted 4/13/2021 17:09 PM

One more thought.

Contact her old betrayed fiancé and ask him if she wrote and said the same to him.

If he still has a similar letter she wrote to him get a copy scanned and sent to you and hand it to her suggesting she bring both yours and his to her first therapy session.

waitedwaytoolong posted 4/13/2021 17:14 PM

Take it from someone who’s spouse also had an AP who enjoyed doing it in the marital bed to humiliate the spouse, you will never get over it. I couldn’t live with it and had a great wife prior for 25 years.

When she says he always wanted to do it there. Just how many times was it? My guess also is he did just about every act under the sun to take basically every sexual position with her to tarnish it with you. Read my story for the gory details.

You have dodged a huge bullet here. You should almost thank the AP for his timing. She was a ticking time bomb. If it wasn’t him, it would have been someone else. Except by then she would have had a wedding ring on, instead of an engagement band. Maybe a couple of kids too.

Get her totally out of your life and don’t look back.

You sound like a great guy. You will find someone not so damaged. Resist at all possible costs the feeling you might be having to save her. You deserve better

ChamomileTea posted 4/13/2021 17:24 PM

Remarkably, her Big Argument was as follows: that she acknowledges that infidelity is ‘in her blood’ (not sure whether a reference to ‘bloodline’ or ‘DNA’—perhaps both are true), yet … yet … that she was 100% excited and prepared to put all of that behind her because I am ‘the perfect man’. Her twisted logic was that by having this affair, it would ‘purge’ her of all the ‘demons’ and would ‘cleanse’ her in preparation for a fully committed life with me.

Of all the things she wrote, probably this right hear is the most believable. She's clearly crazy, but there's usually some sort of rationale that the cheater is using to justify her actions. The fact that she views herself as someone who has cheating "in her blood", I think gives some merit to her flawed thinking that maybe she could get it out of her system. Before you start feeling sorry for her though:

she recalibrated her remarks to mean that I operate by too high a moral standard and that it is consequently ‘suffocating’. She admires me for my integrity, etc, but says it is impossible to live up to the perfectionist ideals I hold for myself and others. I need to reflect on that last comment.

She doesn't really respect you. And she thinks that she is the normal one.

I wouldn't take her word for it that the OM was the aggressor, nor would I believe that it was his "ultimate thrill to humiliate" you. You've already caught her lying so many times and so flagrantly. You'd be better off assuming that this is just another squirrel. Given her proclivity to cheating, I'd say she's attempting to direct your anger to the AP and make it seem like she was pursued until she gave in. That doesn't fit the narrative of what you learned from the ex-fiance though.

Anyway, I think your best bet is to ask for the ring back if she hasn't returned it yet. Bear in mind that most of the time, the courts will call it a gift, so this might be the time to utilize a little finesse, particularly if you spent a lot of money on it. If it was really, really expensive though, you'll also want to get it checked by a jeweler to make sure you've got the correct ring. I would make any further discussion contingent on returning the ring. If she wants to know what you thought about her letter or whether you're considering any kind of forgiveness, she'll return the ring in order to get your commentary. That said, never meet her again without a VAR (voice-activated recorder) on your person. You've seen what kind of lies she's capable of and she's crazy. So, if you have to meet with her, get her to hand over the ring BEFORE you offer any other information on where you stand. If she balks, tell her that you can SEE she's playing games and leave. She's going to be curious as to whether her efforts are paying off, so I think you've got a passable shot at getting your ring back if you act soon.

Once you've got all her stuff out of your house and she's returned the ring to you, just change your phone number and move on with your life. If she contacts you after that, send her a Cease and Desist. Done.

In terms of whether or not you're going to be okay, whether you'll have other relationships, or lasting insecurities, etc., just remember that not everyone is crazy. Your XF managed to fool you for a long time, that's true, but sociopaths are just a little better at deceit than your garden-variety cheater, right? And you DID catch her in the end, before she got it over the line. You'll be okay. Just make sure you're looking past the pretty face.

Wiseoldfool posted 4/13/2021 17:33 PM

Anyway, I think your best bet is to ask for the ring back if she hasn't returned it yet. Bear in mind that most of the time, the courts will call it a gift, so this might be the time to utilize a little finesse, particularly if you spent a lot of money on it.

Actually, the law generally views an engagement ring as an offer which is accepted by the actual marriage, so in the eyes of the law the ring is a conditional gift, and the condition has not been fulfilled. Stated differently, it’s likely the ring is yours to demand.

DanielJK posted 4/13/2021 17:40 PM

But there is a lot in there that pulls me back to her.

You just need time and space. Eventually it will sink in just how unsafe she is. Trust me.

After all, what's going to stop her from doing it again? Morals?

She was engaged, he was married...morals didn't hold either of them back.

I'm sure it was exciting for her. Just imagine how much more exciting it would be the next time...just one more.

ETA: damn there are some deep thinkers on this site. You are getting some top notch feedback. Good call CT on getting the ring...excellent idea.

[This message edited by DanielJK at 5:49 PM, April 13th (Tuesday)]

leftbroken posted 4/13/2021 17:48 PM

To me one of the biggest red flags is the fact the AP seemed more interested in humiliating Absolon than anything else and the WW seemed quite content to just go along with it.

There was no thought at all to discretion she seemed quite happy to play a role in the degrading.

newlife03 posted 4/13/2021 17:52 PM

Wow, a whole lot for you to take in. Take your time trying to figure it out and be sure to take care of yourself.

The few things that stood out to me:

Her letter sounds like she's playing victim of AP's advances. She was no victim, she was a willing participant.

The idea that having an affair would purge her of the demons in her life comes from someone who is truly twisted or someone who has little remorse. I can't buy into the "I want to be a better person for you so I'm going to boink this man in our home."

she recalibrated her remarks to mean that I operate by too high a moral standard and that it is consequently ‘suffocating’. She admires me for my integrity, etc, but says it is impossible to live up to the perfectionist ideals I hold for myself and others. I need to reflect on that last comment.

You are NOT at fault. This is another feeble attempt at making excuses for what she chose to do. Telling you she admires your integrity after allowing AP to humiliate you in your home is a slap in the face.

I'm glad you're meeting OBS again, and hopefully you can help her see what AP has done. But like someone else said, be prepared for more truths about WF to come out; AP has probably painted an ugly picture of your marriage and also of WF's actions towards him. Proceed with caution and remember that what she's telling you could be coming from a known liar and cheater.

M1965 posted 4/13/2021 17:55 PM

Absolon,

I am glad that you can see that letter for what it is: emotionally manipulative, deluded rubbish.

It is full of inconsistencies and reversals of logic, but it unwittingly illustrates how twisted her thought processes are, which should serve as a warning.

Many of the statements invalidate themselves. For example, you say:

She then went into deeply explicit, almost forensic, detail about the degree to which I was her best lover, etc etc, ever. While a) I don’t care and b) it no longer matters, I will give her credit for the level of detail she provided about what I did for her in that regard—and, as compared against AP and all previous lovers. It was both weird and touching.

So what she wants you to believe is that even though you were the greatest man she had ever been with, and she was all set to marry you, she still decided to have sex with her AP.

I mean no disrespect to you by this, but if she truly thought you were so incredible, why was she still looking around for a tawdry affair with the husband of a ‘good friend’? If she can be all set to marry a man she thinks is so fantastic, and still cheat, how much does being fantastic count for?

In Your first post, you wrote:

My fiancée…was insistent on having set places at the table for everyone. She sat between one of her good female friends and her husband; let’s call him AP (!).

Your wife put herself – literally and physically – between the AP and his wife (her ‘good friend’). That was not accidental; it was deliberate, as well as symbolic. So when she says…

On the morning of our dinner party, under the pretext of an over-lengthy shopping trip, she met with him in a park and there he confessed his deep infatuation for her.

She said she told him a firm ‘NO’ to that, but that throughout the dinner party later that night that he was playing footsies with her under the table. She says it was ‘pretty much the unluckiest thing in the world’ that I happened to turn back at the very moment he put his hand through hers. She says he initiated that too.

…she is ignoring the fact that she put herself right beside him in full knowledge of what he was likely to try and initiate. She sent him a very clear signal by giving him the opportunity for physical contact, so it is pointless for her to say he initiated anything. She initiated it, by putting herself beside him. He simply took her up on the offer of physical contact she had arranged.

She backed up the ‘firm’ no by sitting right next to him?

And ‘pretty much the unluckiest thing in the world’ is a strange way to describe you catching sight of what she was doing with him. Would it have been ‘lucky’ if you had not seen it, and the affair was still going on?

In your first post, on the subject of the vacation, you wrote:

Finally in late November, we had a crappy week where we fought quite a bit because she suddenly wanted to bring AP and his wife to our long-planned holiday this January. For one, I don’t like the guy and for another, I just had this creeping sense that something is not right. But because I couldn’t give her great reasons for excluding them, she became frustrated with me.

And yet, in her letter, your wife does some classic blame-shifting:

He had apparently put a lot of pressure on her throughout November to get me to agree to having he and OBS on our January vacation; a lot of their texting throughout Nov and Dec was based around scenario after scenario he conjured to say how they would manage to have illicit sex right under our noses.

She was the one arguing with you to include the guy in your vacation, regardless of the ‘pressure’ she says she was under. And what you know now is that she was pushing for it so that they could do what they were planning to do in their texts.

However, it was him who put pressure on her, and him who planned the scenarios. She was just a poor, helpless victim of his evil plotting, so what else could she do but go along with it and then get annoyed with you when you put obstacles in their way?

On the AP’s approach, your wife said:

AP phoned her and asked whether she could meet because he and his wife (OBS) were having marital difficulties and, given my WF and OBS were friends, apparently my WF would provide the requisite insight he sought.

Absolon, the ‘Can I talk to you about my marital problems?’ ploy is one that countless male APs have used to begin affairs with women. Loads of women have written how their AP used a variation on that theme, which is an absolutely brilliant way to get the woman to talk about her marriage, and to fish for potential issues to exploit.

And yet, all the man had to say was that he wanted to have sex with your wife, which is a surprising angle for both of them to take when they met to try and fix his marriage and discuss his wife.

Can you see how transparently ridiculous that is? And how the AP did not approach your wife out of the blue?

I am sure there were more signals between them before his supposedly unexpected contact to meet up. And I am equally sure that she did not tell you about it before she went.

They met for coffee one workday morning, about 7-8 days before the dinner party, which lead to him texting her throughout the next week.

More blame-shifting. He was the one texting her. If she was not texting him back, why did he keep texting all week? And yet, in her account, the only person texting was him. The truth is that she was as active in the dialogue as him.

She was vague about sexual details but said it began in early February. AP insisted it be in my house as often as they could manage. She said that his ‘ultimate thrill’ was to humiliate me.

Well, what gal could resist a guy who wanted to get off on humiliating the most wonderful man she had ever met, and who she was going to marry? What comes across time and again in your wife’s actions is that she enjoys doing forbidden things, and taking risks by doing it right in front of the victim.

She gets off on the deception and taboo of it.

That is why she started flirting with you when she was engaged to the previous guy, who she cheated on multiple times. She loves fooling people. And that is a very bad sign in any prospective life-partner.

She compounds that by saying:

Remarkably, her Big Argument was as follows: that she acknowledges that infidelity is ‘in her blood’ (not sure whether a reference to ‘bloodline’ or ‘DNA’—perhaps both are true), yet … yet … that she was 100% excited and prepared to put all of that behind her because I am ‘the perfect man’.

Her twisted logic was that by having this affair, it would ‘purge’ her of all the ‘demons’ and would ‘cleanse’ her in preparation for a fully committed life with me. She said that the hugest appeal to this affair was her quiet loathing of this man (the one who apparently makes her feel ‘safe and secure’?!) and that, combined with his sick desire to humiliate me, the self-disgust generated from her choice to be with him would finally purge her of her 'last itch’ to cheat.

If that is the way her mind works, she has more problems than she realizes. And if she knew she had problems, and needed to ‘cleanse’ herself and purge her ‘demons’, why did she not seek therapy instead of a tawdry affair with the husband of a friend who wanted to humiliate you?

That is like trying to purge yourself of violent fantasies by going on a killing spree.

The truth is, if she really thought it was so messed up, and she really had loathing for the guy, she would not have done it. She did it because she gets off on doing ‘bad’ things, and it is significant that both she and her Dad are fond of pseudo-religious references to God-like power, purging, demons, etc. Both of them are deeply manipulative people.

Other than that (!), she said that she is now going to live at her parents’ indefinitely. She said she is going to undergo therapy for the first time in her life. She said she is going to write me a letter at the end of every month to update me on her progress.

She said that she is going to win me back, but only on my (Absolon’s) terms. She said that my cutting her off, in the way I have, has made her realize how much she truly loves and wants me, and is devastated by her actions.

All I can say in response to that is, “Run”.

Love does not manifest itself in any of her actions, and even after the discovery of the affair she went to spend a spa weekend with the man she loathed and made her feel self-disgust, while publicly declaring you – her Superman, better than every other man, etc – to be an emotionally manipulative bad guy who drove her repeatedly into the arms of her good friend’s husband.

By all means encourage her to get therapy, but cut your ties and tell her there is no need to provide monthly letters.

Oh, and: she apologized .. sort of .. for her ‘emotional abuse’ crap comments – definitely for the public nature of them, but also for their inaccuracy. But she didn’t retract things entirely: she recalibrated her remarks to mean that I operate by too high a moral standard and that it is consequently ‘suffocating’. She admires me for my integrity, etc, but says it is impossible to live up to the perfectionist ideals I hold for myself and others. I need to reflect on that last comment.

Well, that’s the cherry on the cake. A serial cheat who gets off on doing ‘bad’, forbidden things says that your standards are impossibly high, soon after describing you as her perfect man?

How can you be her 'perfect' man if your standards are so high that it forces her to have affairs with the husbands of her friends?

No, no, no.

What it says is that her expectations of herself are lamentably low, and if she really thought she could not meet your standards, why did she want to marry you, and why does she want to win you back? Can you see how ridiculous and contradictory that is?

Absolon, your standards are not too high. They are normal. Hers are missing in action. There is nothing wrong with you. If she struggles to meet standards that most people would say are normal, that is something for her to address in therapy, not to criticize you for.

In what way were your standards responsible for her choice to have an affair with the husband of a ‘good friend’? It was her standards that enabled her to do that, so how much introspection do you have to do because she has no discernible standards of her own?

Do not waste your time wondering if you are too demanding.

The fact is, she cannot meet the basic standards anyone would expect from a prospective spouse or even long-term partner, and until she gets her house in order, she will never be a safe bet to have anything more than a casual, passing relationship with.

steadychevy posted 4/13/2021 17:58 PM

From DanielJK:

I'm sure it was exciting for her. Just imagine how much more exciting it would be the next time...just one more.

And she'll be better at hiding it. Practice makes perfect.

My XWW was quite good at hiding it. She put a plan in place.

SnowToArmPits posted 4/13/2021 18:02 PM

Hey OP. You want this woman off your back... give the letter to the OBS.

Besides, you owe the OM a bit of humiliation.

[This message edited by SnowToArmPits at 6:03 PM, April 13th (Tuesday)]

Butforthegrace posted 4/13/2021 18:10 PM

SnowToArmPits, that is the best idea I've seen all day.

The1stWife posted 4/13/2021 18:11 PM

The WF “says” the AP wanted to “humiliate” the betrayed by having sex in their bed.

However it could be completely the opposite and the WF had the idea to do this. Just to be a further b!tc$ in this case.

I’m just sayin...

SnowToArmPits posted 4/13/2021 18:59 PM

that is the best idea I've seen all day.

Thx kindly, but props to BlueRaspberry's post on the prev page.

HalfTime2017 posted 4/13/2021 20:32 PM

NOthing, absolutely nothing should pull you back to the one to honored the man who wanted so desperately to humiliate you.

I know you want to walk away from this thing with your head held high. You have always shown your WF that you do the right thing. The right thing to do now, is to leave this all behind. Reading that letter did nothing for you. Its just more pain, and unneeded contact.

Yea, she had some nice things to say about you, but so what. She didn't think much about all those great qualities of yours when she decided to cheat. And here is the biggest kicker in that letter: SHE BLAMED EVERYTHING ON THE AP!!! Dude, this chick has not changed one bit. She may be right, in that the AP initiated the contact, but she is the most culpable of them. She was the one that was suppose to marry you. The AP doesn't owe you shit.

So 5 yrs down the road and she has another itch, and since she's soooo beautiful there will be other men that will want to bed her, then what....She gonna need to purge herself again b/c its been awhile since she's gotten some new ass and excitement?

The group here always recommends that in the event of infidelity, and you two are not married that you go and say your blessings and run the other direction. Cut your losses and a year from now, you'll be happier you didn't tie yourself down to a cheater. This sentiment has not changed, and that letter doesn't change anything.

Buster123 posted 4/13/2021 21:08 PM

Brother this woman is plain toxic, sick and crazy all at the same time, she's all over the place in that letter and contradicts all her actions leading to, during the A and after DDay, others have covered it well and pointed all the bullshit in it, so I won't repeat them in this post, that letter is just pure garbage, nothing she wrote makes any sense at all, simply put RUN an Don't look back !!!

nekonamida posted 4/13/2021 21:11 PM

The group here always recommends that in the event of infidelity, and you two are not married that you go and say your blessings and run the other direction. Cut your losses and a year from now, you'll be happier you didn't tie yourself down to a cheater. This sentiment has not changed, and that letter doesn't change anything.

Ask us - how many couples do we know that experienced infidelity before marriage also experienced it after marriage too? It's across the board - basically all of them. Being engaged is a special time. The lead up to the wedding and the time immediately afterwards is one of THE best and easiest times of the relationship. Take it from us who've been married for years, decades even. That part was a cake walk. You know what's hard? Several years in. Two kids late. When you're so tired and burnt out that you haven't even thought about a date night let alone had one. You haven't had more than a few minutes of alone time for weeks. If your STBX could not keep it in her pants during the best times of your relationship, she WILL fail you during the worst times. I question if IC can really do it for her given she hasn't even begun to experience the most stressful, hard times of adult, married life yet. You're not walking away from potential. You're saving yourself from a boatload of risk and heartbreak.

[This message edited by nekonamida at 9:12 PM, April 13th (Tuesday)]

DeWittle posted 4/13/2021 21:29 PM

Like suggested, that letter was PURE BS, demonstrated by the seating arrangement of the dinner party. Gently, it was sexual prior to the dinner party and I’d lay odds that she actively took part in the humiliations...sorry. About the only truth you might gleam from this letter is the line he used on her to get coffee, although the timeline of that was probably BS.

She admires me for my integrity, etc, but says it is impossible to live up to the perfectionist ideals I hold for myself and others. I need to reflect on that last comment.
NO NO NO NO!!! Absolutely NOT! The engagement period is a trail and your WF failed it twice, disgustingly. She has nothing to offer you in way of self improvement.

I suggest you send her a NC letter to her, her father and her mother (I believe you stated she contacted you, also). The whole family appear to be “bunny boilers”.

RocketRaccoon posted 4/14/2021 01:13 AM

• She then went into deeply explicit, almost forensic, detail about the degree to which I was her best lover, etc etc, ever. While a) I don’t care and b) it no longer matters, I will give her credit for the level of detail she provided about what I did for her in that regard—and, as compared against AP and all previous lovers.

She has done this before.

One of your earlier posts in this thread when you had dinner with her ex:

Amazingly, what ‘sold’ him was her comparing him favourably to her APs and saying, ‘How could I be so dumb to be with an inferior man when I have you?!

She is just using the same old formula she used on her past fiance/boyfriends. Giving you what she hopes are ego kibbles.

As to her 'now going to live at her parents’ indefinitely', I would not put too much weight on that.

Would not be surprised that she hooks up with someone else once she finds that you are not receptive to her wiles.

For me, mutual friends updated me that my ex-fiancee had a new boyfriend about 2mths after we had broken up (because of her cheating). Was not surprised, as I was not receptive to any of her ego kibbles she tried to throw my way, so she moved onto another target.

Edit: spelling

[This message edited by RocketRaccoon at 1:18 AM, April 14th (Wednesday)]

Jambomo posted 4/14/2021 03:59 AM

I agree with the others who say that she doesn't really mean a lot of what she is saying, but is saying the things that she thinks you want to hear or worked for her in the past.

She has done this before. She knows how devastating it is to do this to someone and did it anyway. Worse, she knew the OM was trying to humiliate you by sleeping with her at your home and she fully participated in that humiliation - yet another line crossed.

Comments like it "being in her blood" are bullshit. Many children see their parents do bad things as they are growing up and whilst some copy them, many others grow up knowing they don't want to be that way. It was a choice and she made it.

She admires me for my integrity, etc, but says it is impossible to live up to the perfectionist ideals I hold for myself and others. I need to reflect on that last comment.

There is nothing wrong with a bit of self-reflection, but I'd suggest speaking to friends or family first, let them know this was said and ask their opinion. Cheats often literally make things up to justify themselves.

Its also the case that just because she finds your standards high or that you look for perfection, it doesn't mean you won't find someone else who doesn't share those same ideals or indeed you are wrong for having them anyway. This is really quite a individual outlook on things that differs across people, and her telling you that you are at fault doesn't make it so.

[This message edited by Jambomo at 4:58 AM, April 14th (Wednesday)]

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