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After 43 years....

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Dan90254 posted 12/26/2020 09:14 AM

One son, 39. Obviously irrelevant.
She went back to France. Her mother , 89, tested Covid positive and is not doing very well. She is at home.
WW sent me a text acknowledging that she wonít claim more than 30% of my pension. We are set to start D paperwork with attorney mediator when she , WW, comes back March 16.
No more ę†pick me dance†Ľ. On the way to LAX the other day I asked her what she was thinking when she said that she didnít want a divorce AND had no intention of quitting her affair. She had no response.

Buster123 posted 12/26/2020 11:50 AM

On the way to LAX the other day I asked her what she was thinking when she said that she didnít want a divorce AND had no intention of quitting her affair. She had no response.
I think I know the answer: She wanted more of the proverbial cake and entertained the ridiculous idea that you would just roll over and allow it, again so much for loyalty after more than 4 decades.

OTOH you have a 39 yo son, does he know you're filing for D and about his mother's A ? when you say he's "irrelevant" I think you mean financially but could you clarify it, if he's been told about the A, what did he say about it ? Did your STBXWW talked to him about it ?

Dan90254 posted 12/26/2020 13:13 PM

He knew 1 hour after me. He s not judgmental. He doesnt say anything one way or the other which of course doesnt mean he s got no opinion.

Bigger posted 12/26/2020 14:21 PM


Is she doing anything about her company until March?
Can she manage it / work from France?

Do you have the annual report from 2019 and 2020? Was there any debt?
Look Ė I would be really surprised if they can simply lock the doors and stop business on a company that hired 14 people. There is a winding-down period or even more likely a sale Ė even if itís bellow market-value.
I think itís to your advantage to keep thing calm until March. I really think time is on your side on this issue.

Dan90254 posted 12/26/2020 15:23 PM

I agree. I m not going to rock any boat until she s really committed to the 30% pension limit.
The business is down to 4-5 employees. The others, including our son, were laid off. There are doing zero business right now. Last year they grossed in excess of $7M. Probably in the $6M range in 2018. She got huge bonuses in the form of 401 plans which she rolled over into her IRAs. Thats why hers are bigger than mine. But so far she doesnít realize that we will make them even. Even the attorney agreed. So in fact Iím getting $65K from her work.
The business is only as good as the people who work there. She is by far the best salesperson of the company. Without her the company has no valuable assets. No stocks, no products, no patents, no furniture not even a customers list.
Iím in it for 25%, half of her half but I have no illusions. If her partner doesnít buy her out and he said last week that he had no intention to, my 25% are worth zilch.

keptmyword posted 12/30/2020 18:16 PM

This woman does not define you or your life nor does it determine your value.

Even after 43 years, she still does not define you or your life.

Her being your wife does not define you.

Your marriage, even after 43 years, does not define your life or determine your value.

Her betrayal does not define you nor determine your value because her betrayal has nothing to do with you nor does it have anything to do with your marriage.

None of what she has done nor any decisions she has made, have anything to do with you or the marriage.

Your life is defined by, and your self-esteem is determined by living the values you believe in and living authentically by them.

This woman is irrelevant to that.

She is the woman you are presently married to.

Soon, she will be the person you used to be married to.

Get yourself outside of her world of infidelity and delusion.

The sooner you do so the sooner you will see it for the pathetic juvenile fantasy-land it is.

Dan90254 posted 1/4/2021 01:41 AM

Question.
She agreed to not claim more than 30% of my pension. We also agree to equally divide the rest of our assets including the house.
But...I want to include a clause that in the event she remarries that guy or another she forfeits the 30%. I just don't want to pay for her future husband incidentals. That sounds reasonable to me. Well she does not answer directly telling me that she will never remarry, the idea of remarrying is laughable, there is no need for a remarriage etc...
So the question is ....Is such a clause automatic and implicit in a divorce settlement or do I really need of having it included?

Bigger posted 1/4/2021 03:08 AM

The absolute worst advice offered on sites like SI is legal advice. Mine included. Take this (and all other divorce/legal advice) for what itís worthÖ

No Ė remarrying will probably not impact if she is entitled to your pension or not.
The line-of-thought in division of assets in a divorce is that the marriage is a financial unit. Your ability to work and generate an income is directly related to her contributions. For example: She might have been a SAHM for some years following the birth of your son, worked fewer hours or done more house-work, enabling you to pull 50-60 hour weeks and climb the career-ladder.
The same applies to her company though: The reason she could start the company, work without fixed wages and all that for the first months/years is maybe because you could finance her cost-of-living, the gas on the car, co-sign the loan or whatever was needed when this was a 2-person aspiring business.
Therefore, all the assets Ė retirement included Ė are put in the pot and divided. As far as the law is concerned itís not YOUR pension, but rather the pension created by the both of you while married.

Might not sound fair but if you give it some thought then it really is. Just like itís really fair that you keep in mind the potential value of her company.

Edited to add:
As macabre as it sounds then I suggest you two add a clause regarding the pension for if either of you passes away. If sheís entitled to half if you pass away then there is no loss for you to give her half at that time. Same if she passes away before you there is no need to get 30% less.

[This message edited by Bigger at 3:10 AM, January 4th (Monday)]

steadychevy posted 1/4/2021 06:50 AM

I understand you not wanting to partially finance the lifestyle of the "new" loving couple. You'd need to get legal advice on that. I don't know how that would work. Maybe they wouldn't marry, what then?

If she sticks to the 30% maybe that's a good deal. Again, legal advice.

I was able to not split my pensions with my XWW. I ended up having to pay some cash for that but it was much less than the value of the pension split. She knew she didn't have to agree to that and her lawyer told her not to agree. He even made her sign a document that he had provided that advice and she had rejected it.

There is a difference in pensions. My government pension is fine. When I consolidated my corporate pension I chose to select the option that when I pass away my XWW (wife, at the time) would get 66 2/3 of it for the rest of her life. It was the right thing to do. I'm male and 6 years older than her so odds are that I would pass away much sooner than she and I wanted her to be looked after. It was very clear that once the option was chosen and the pension consolidated it could not be changed. I've checked that out since divorce and it is legally binding. My XWW benefits from my death. To her credit, she doesn't feel that is right but I signed it.

I don't know what all of your pensions are, Dan. I wanted to bring that to your attention. It's possible I already did earlier in your thread. I didn't check.

Good luck to you, Dan. I hope that everything does work out satisfactory for you.

sisoon posted 1/4/2021 10:09 AM

I drafted something about net present value - and then realized Bigger is right. Talk with your lawyer about that.

Dan90254 posted 1/4/2021 12:23 PM

Update.
1 hour ago she called for something related to the house and I asked her again and after saying for the umpteenth time that it is very unlikely that she will remarry she finally acknowledged that there was a remote possibility and she seemed to understand my position and she said " sure, I'll sign on that".
I'll draft a general plan this week and forward it to the mediator attorney. I'm still going to consult with a private attorney on my own but I think that we agreed on is the best I can get.
Thanks everybody for your wise responses.
Until March I'm (hopefully) dormant.

josiep posted 1/4/2021 15:32 PM

Hi Dan,

I'm very late to the conversation and although I tried to read all of your posts, I didn't read everyone else's (not that I'm not interested but I'm up to my eyeballs in some other stuff right now and pressed for time). So please forgive me if I comment on something and itís out of context or based on an incorrect assumption.

I was married, happily as far as I knew, for 45 yrs. My (now) EX was a pain in the neck, always grumpy with and about everyone else, never wanted to do anything or go anywhere and when we did, everything and everyone ticked him off. We got along fine and never had a cross word (although in hindsight I can see he never treated me as well as he should have but thatís not because heís mean, itís because he just doesnít know how to consider anyone besides himself). Anyway, in an effort to cheer him up, I packed him up with new clothes and used my frequent flyer miles and sent him off to his 50th High School class reunion in the Midwest. Well, he got cheered up all right - bumped into his old girlfriend from senior year and that was the beginning of a long horrible twisted tale that turned my life upside down and ripped my heart out and melted my brain (I exaggerate but you know what I mean).

But the moment I realized he was not mine exclusively anymore, I told him to leave and I went directly to a divorce attorney. I realize youíre in CA and the laws are different but my attorney pounced and told me to file immediately and ask for almost everything and that if he was feeling guilty or anxious to leave for TX (where she lived), he might agree. And by golly, he did.

So the things I wanted to bring up to you are:

She has betrayed you and now she has manipulated you into believing that she deserves half of everything that you built together. She has also lied to you about her partner buying her out. Thatís so insulting, it makes me furious for you. And I hope you realize that you owe her nothing and you do not have to be nice about any of this. Iím not saying to be ugly but to quit trying to be ďfairĒ and ďnice.Ē You shouldnít care what she thinks of you anymore and she has no right to ever comment on anything about your life ever again. Your connection and commitment to her is finished. And for Godís sake, you no longer have any obligation to look out for her best interests! She fired you from that job and fully intended to keep you on as the husband while she had her fun in France. Let ďhimĒ look out for her best interests and you look out for yours.

2.She wants to live in FR, you donít. Therefore, is there any benefit to you to divorce now? Youíre already retired, right? So itís not like if you put off the D, your pension will be higher later on down the road. If you donít D, you can just stay in sunny CA and collect your full pension, live in the home she abandoned and play golf everyday and wait for her to come back. Not to mention that if she rebuilds her business, itíll be financially to your benefit to still be married to her when itís worth more. And Iím guessing thatís part of her plan - get divorced from you, sock you for everything she can get her hands on and then rebuild her fortune in a way that you canít touch it.
3 If your attorney is considering any type of agreement that doesnít give her 50% of your pension, I think you should consult with another attorney because as soon as the D is final, I think she can go back and demand the 50% and your attorney should know better. I think CA law mandates that she get 50% in spite of anything you sign so if your lawyer is going along with anything else, I think you need to consult with another. And I admit I donít really know but I always believe an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

4. Iím also wondering if youíll collect SS, if not on your own contributions but on hers? I know the laws about SS can vary when people work for various city, county and state agencies so itís something you should look into. I also believe thereís a different formula for couples when one is under the SS system and the other isnít. The usual goal of the divorce process is that you have similar incomes in retirement. I believe you can make an appt. to talk to a SS rep and have them run all the numbers and figure out your best case scenario. And donít believe anything anyone has told you about this - call Social Security and have them run the numbers for you. I have a friend who was positive I was wrong that she could start collecting on her ex-husbandís account while she was still working (she was past retirement age). Iíd figured it out and she could have gotten $900/month but she kept listening to everyone else. But I kept nagging her and one day she was talking to a woman who happened to work for SS and guess what? She started collecting $900/month.

I realize Iím jumping all over the place here and I apologize but I also wanted to point out that you can figure out a fair split with her getting half your pension and then you getting money from her IRA to make it come out fair. I canít find the post where you spelled out the numbers but hereís an example, using made up numbers (monthly figures).

Sally pension = 300
Dan SS = 500
Sally SS = 2000
Sally from Dan $4000 pension = 2000
Dan from Dan $4000 pension = 2000

Sallyís IRA = 25,000
Danís IRA = 10,000

So the joint monthly income is $6800.

So then you add up hers:
Sally from Dan pension = 2000
Sally pension = 300
Sally SS = 2000
Sally total = $4300

Dan pension = 2000
Dan SS = 500
Dan total = $2500;

The monthly payout from the IRAís will be another $1000/month for a total of $7800 per month joint.

So you work it out that you each get $3900/month. But sheís already at $4300 so she should transfer all of her IRA to your IRA under that scenario.

If you send me all the numbers, Iíll do it up right so you can see what Iím saying. But wait until you consult with SS directly.

So my EX and I did this:. He kept all his pensions and 401K and I get monthly spousal support for the rest of my life. If he dies before me, my SS will increase by almost the amount of the monthly spousal support, which was a coincidence but made it easy for us to do it fairly.

He had a life ins. policy through his job and Iím the permanent and irrevocable beneficiary of that, with our kids as secondary. That ascertains that the AP (his now wife) doesnít get that money. He earned it while married to me, it will not go to her. I couldíve had it go straight to our kids but they were both in rocky relationships at the time so he agreed that it should go to me and Iíd save it for them until things settled down in their lives. At the time, when I suggested it, I explained the idea and said ďand you know you can trust me to keep my word.Ē He did have the decency to hang his head in shame and agree with me.

Iím also the beneficiary of his 401K the same way but heís probably spending that down as fast as he can to keep me from getting any but I couldnít win them all.

Anyway, I wish you well. And my advice to you is: donít let anyone tell you what to do and donít do anything until you feel like it and feel comfortable with it. Thereís no hurry here and you want to get it right.

One last caveat: when I brought up my suspicions about him having an affair, he denied, denied, denied and was being sweet and loving and kind and open and warm. When I showed him I had proof, he hung his head down and when he looked back up, he was a different person. He made a fundamental shift right in front of my eyes. And heís been a horrible SOB every since. I suspect your wife will do the same thing. (And it is a psychological phenomenon, I forget the name of it, but believe me, sheíll do the same thing - donít be tricked by her doe eyes and sweet smile).

My heart breaks for you but Iím also jealous because Iím sure youíll have many more opportunities for love. I just read that there are 128 women for every 100 men over age 65. So Iím resigned to a future of petting my cat and exchanging casseroles with my Golden Girls friends. :)

Dan90254 posted 1/4/2021 19:17 PM

Thanks for this long post . I will reply to it in length tomorrow. But fior now...
The affair is in the open and she doesnt deny any of it. She just doesnt want to get in the timeline or details but she doesnt deny the lies and ensuing deception. The full 2 years of them. We both gad good careers and we did well with our money. She was extremely hard working and many years her salary and bonuses dwarfed mine.
She was the best wife I could have ever dreamed of and without her support and love Iíd be either a nobody, a bum or dead. Probably dead. Then she flipped.
I did not understand your examples but some point sure got my attention....she could get 50% after the D is final.
Iím making an appointment tomorrow with an attorney specializing with people in my line of work. I retired almost 8 years ago.
Thank you again and sorry to hear about your story.

Dan90254 posted 1/4/2021 21:22 PM

2 nd update.
After checking with my employer pension dept it turns out that the % of pension she will be allocated will be her property forever. So if she marries the OM she still keeps her %. And Iíll be in the position to partly fund their lifestyle. Doesnt matter that OM is a neuropsychiatrist who probably makes 10 times what my pension is. Bigger was right.

[This message edited by Dan90254 at 9:24 PM, January 4th (Monday)]

josiep posted 1/4/2021 22:34 PM

You donít have to respond unless you want to. We share our experiences and our opinions and encouragement freely in the hope of helping one another.

What I was trying to say is donít look at the settlement in bits and pieces, view it as a whole. Our assets equal X, therefore I want Z. Our monthly income is Y, therefore we should each get T.

josiep posted 1/5/2021 09:25 AM

"She wants to live in FR, you donít. Therefore, is there any benefit to you to divorce now? Youíre already retired, right? So itís not like if you put off the D, your pension will be higher later on down the road. If you donít D, you can just stay in sunny CA and collect your full pension, live in the home she abandoned and play golf everyday and wait for her to come back. Not to mention that if she rebuilds her business, itíll be financially to your benefit to still be married to her when itís worth more. And Iím guessing thatís part of her plan - get divorced from you, sock you for everything she can get her hands on and then rebuild her fortune in a way that you canít touch it.
3 If your attorney is considering any type of agreement that doesnít give her 50% of your pension, I think you should consult with another attorney because as soon as the D is final, I think she can go back and demand the 50% and your attorney should know better. I think CA law mandates that she get 50% in spite of anything you sign so if your lawyer is going along with anything else, I think you need to consult with another. And I admit I donít really know but I always believe an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."

I wanted to clarify this to say I don't know for certain what the law is. THAT is why I'm encouraging you to get a 2nd opinion before you sign anything. Or, of course, do the work around I try to illustrate (poorly, I realize but if you're interested, I'll do the real numbers for you).

And please also understand that you do not have to answer to me at all. I toss out my ideas and thoughts and then you take the ones that hit home for you and ignore the rest. It's all cool.

Marriagesucks posted 1/5/2021 11:15 AM

^^^ This.

Let her do the legwork if she wants to stay in France with her phsyco...phsycologist BF (sorry... couldn't resist). What is your gain?

Lalagirl posted 1/5/2021 12:32 PM

I'm with Josie.

Dan90254 posted 1/5/2021 17:36 PM

I don't understand why I should run from any attorney who would advise me to agree for her to less than 50%. I cannot lose more than 50% as it is so why not have her sign on 30%? If she changes her mind later on I still would not have lost anything more than what I would have in the first place.
I have a zoom meeting next Friday with an attorney specializing in my line of work and with people who experienced the same difficulties.

Why divorcing?
Because I want to start a new chapter as painful as it is right now and I m guessing that no lady with half a brain would ever be interested in a long term relationship with a "separated" man. I'm 66 and maybe there's still someone out there who would be ok to share the next 10-15 years.

pureheartkit posted 1/5/2021 18:46 PM

I'm reminding you that you have many years yet and that they can be whatever you want them to be. Please think on this if you feel sad or frustrated or angry. When someone is selfish like this and hurts someone and can easily lie and make plans they are far away from love and harmony.

I think you can improve your health so that you will be able to enjoy golfing and travelling for a long time. We know that the body can repair artery walls and now we know that cartilage can grow again in joints. Eat a healing non inflammatory diet and reap the rewards. It's hard to say reduce stress when you're facing this but that's just what I hope you will do. Find a way to take a break from the thoughts and try for 8 hours of sleep. Sleep is a super healer.

Congratulations on beating your cancer. These are the years now where you rebuild your strength and immunity. Please get enough Vit D and C during the pandemic. Vit D is saving lives.

What about her? She chose herself. That's no way to be a loving partner. Using and lying only adds to the ugliness. No one feels beautiful or at peace living this way. Does she think she has it all on this earth, successful work, her health and energy, someone to flatter her? That is not lasting. Why couldn't she enjoy those things with you? Because she is only thinking of her own happiness and has no gratitude. Did she think you had no part in helping her achieve her goals?
I know she is not being honest even to herself.

But where are you going friend? Please think about that. Imagine any dream you wish. She's very foolish to give you up as you are going to have a great life ahead.

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