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D-Day 3 I’m just ..I don’t know

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RocketRaccoon ( member #54620) posted at 5:15 AM on Wednesday, October 28th, 2020

This is her call. According to her she has hid and lied about too much. Obviously, there would be no details about the content. I will not stop her on this. She has lost her daughter already.

Understood.

The problem I have with this, is that she is still in wayward thinking. She is only thinking about absolving herself from guilt, by vomiting it all out onto others.

In her mind, she would have purged/confessed, and as such, will not have the burden of the sin in her. Is she Catholic by any chance? (BTW, nothing against the religion)

She is still in victim thinking mode.

You cannot cure stupid

posts: 908   ·   registered: Aug. 12th, 2016   ·   location: South East Asia
id 8602798
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Buffer ( member #71664) posted at 10:27 AM on Wednesday, October 28th, 2020

Just chiming in with a opinion.

Spouses who are in an abusive relationship be it emotional, physical, financial, sexual etc. Are conditioned to do as requested by the abuser regardless. Some without treatment will fall under the same control years later. I help teach self defence to people from a domestic abuse background. Although STBX is being held accountable for her actions, as she should; we need to be mindful not to blame a victim.

We should ease up on her due to the statement made by BS.

The AP is a coward , it is that simple!

One day at a time.

Buffer

posts: 1207   ·   registered: Sep. 24th, 2019   ·   location: Australia
id 8602815
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DeWittle ( member #50857) posted at 1:20 PM on Wednesday, October 28th, 2020

Although STBX is being held accountable for her actions, as she should; we need to be mindful not to blame a victim.

Disagree completely. Victim, maybe years ago but now only an adulteress. She made the decisions to do all this and even stated she did so not to be with POS rather to get back at SeeYa for kicking his ass on his front porch.

posts: 331   ·   registered: Dec. 17th, 2015
id 8602840
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 SeeYaIamOut (original poster member #75524) posted at 3:27 PM on Wednesday, October 28th, 2020

RocketRaccoon

In her mind, she would have purged/confessed, and as such, will not have the burden of the sin in her. Is she Catholic by any chance? (BTW, nothing against the religion)

No.

The problem I have with this, is that she is still in wayward thinking. She is only thinking about absolving herself from guilt, by vomiting it all out onto others.

I want to get some feedback on this please. I have spent time in the wayward section and never saw an explanation for this. I don't see how she can move forward and heal, nor I or the children either without the truth. So the statement above appears to me seems counter intuitive to what all of us need. Including her. Now confessing does not mean I give absolution, quite the contrary. It has hardened my resolve to leave her and the marriage behind. I can see where a WS can use a confession to offload their own guilt. In a thread that is currently active now, I believe that was the case. Given the limited information from the OP. The WS only admitted it, in my opinion to ease their guilty conscious and at a time when they thought it would not cause the BS to leave.

Again I'm interested in the line of reasoning here. I think it would go along way toward my understanding. And just so you know I'm not agreeing or disagreeing here. I have a knowledge gap I am looking to fill.

Disagree completely. Victim, maybe years ago but now only an adulteress. She made the decisions to do all this and even stated she did so not to be with POS rather to get back at SeeYa for kicking his ass on his front porch.

Just a clarification. I did not go back to see exactly what I wrote but if it gave the impression that she knowingly carried on the affair in secret to get back at me then I posted it wrong. Let me post her direct quote about this:

"...It was only after looking back I see that what I participated in after telling you I had ended it, was not about me and AP. But instead I see it was AP's way of using me to get back at you and I was a willing participant in that."

Hopefully that clears that up. Not that it helps my feelings any but I am trying to give you the correct information to use when providing advice and opinions.

posts: 61   ·   registered: Sep. 24th, 2020
id 8602879
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beenthereinco ( member #56409) posted at 5:09 PM on Wednesday, October 28th, 2020

I want to get some feedback on this please. I have spent time in the wayward section and never saw an explanation for this. I don't see how she can move forward and heal, nor I or the children either without the truth. So the statement above appears to me seems counter intuitive to what all of us need. Including her. Now confessing does not mean I give absolution, quite the contrary. It has hardened my resolve to leave her and the marriage behind. I can see where a WS can use a confession to offload their own guilt. In a thread that is currently active now, I believe that was the case. Given the limited information from the OP. The WS only admitted it, in my opinion to ease their guilty conscious and at a time when they thought it would not cause the BS to leave.

To me the difference is in the expectation of result from the truth. A wayward that gives a confession with the expectation that is now off of them and all on the betrayed to forgive is not doing it with the right attitude. If you look on the Wayward side you will see that the thoughtful posters there understand that a confession of the truth does not obligate the BS to reconcile. It just allows the BS to make a fully-informed decision about their life.

posts: 1429   ·   registered: Dec. 13th, 2016
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Stevesn ( member #58312) posted at 5:19 PM on Wednesday, October 28th, 2020

SeeYa

I see it as you do. She needs to provide complete honesty from this moment on. She needs to do this In every aspect of her life, if she ever has a chance to become a person worthy of ANYONE’s affection in the future, as well as to take the next steps in fixing what has been so wrong in her for so long.

And as you say, by doing so, she in no way earns the right to be your partner ever again. That’s for you to decide as time goes on. You are absolutely taking the right steps right now to detach and move down the road to divorce. This relationship is dead and should be legally ended.

Whether or not she can take the years needed to fix herself and become a better, even good person that can be trusted by others is up to her. If someday she does and you are interested in pursuing something, that’s a decision for that day, not this one, here in the now.

What I see her doing here is “letting go of the outcome”. It took her tool long, but She’s finally doing absolutely what a remorseful WS should do. Provide honesty, truthfulness and openness to the person they emotionally destroyed regardless of the implications it will have on their own life. She needed to and continues to need to provide you with any information you seek.

And the fact that she already went to a lawyer and had him draw up an offer beneficial to you, is another way to me she is saying I will do whatever SeeYa needs, regardless if it’s detrimental to me, and I expect nothing for it.

Maybe she is getting advice somewhere from those who understand these things. If it were me advising her, these are the same steps I’d recommend she take.

She knows she’s dropped an atom bomb on her life and those involved in it, knows she’s not yet capable to repair it, so the best she can do is give you whatever you need and offer to be the one to legally end things if that’s what you need.

That’s just my viewpoint. I think you are seeing things clearly.

Take care.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 11:23 AM, October 28th (Wednesday)]

fBBF. Just before proposing, broke it off after her 2nd confirmed PA in 2 yrs. 9 mo later I met the wonderful woman I have spent the next 30 years with.

posts: 3227   ·   registered: Apr. 17th, 2017
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longsadstory1952 ( member #29048) posted at 7:34 PM on Wednesday, October 28th, 2020

I think that no confession is the same as the next. They can have myriad reasons and myriad effects.

Sometimes, it is done to make the cheater feel better. My least favorite example on here years ago of this is the post about the guy posted in Iraq who got a phone call from his wife to confess a year long affair years earlier. Her mother had died and she felt bad. It was all about her needs.

Then of course you will see waywards on the board who are urged to confess because it is the right thing to do, even knowing the turmoil and possible destruction that will follow.

Then of course there are the waywards who confess only because they have been caught dead to rights and are forced to. See AHguy on this. He got a lot of blame shifting and minimization along with transparently unbelievable statements (don't believe a word of the messages sent to OM, it's all lies).

Then there are the Hail Mary pass types of confession. This is where your wife falls. You didn't ask her for anything, it's not to make her feel better and she's not doing it for the right reasons. She's doing it as a last ditch effort to make you come to your senses and not divorce her. The problem here is that she is still minimizing the "stuff." And of course here, the confession is less about the A and more about her history with her Svengali like BF.

In your wife's case, it's all she has to work with. And it doesn't look like its working for you. Of course, she doesn't know that you found the phone.

So there you have feedback. Don't get too wrapped up in this question. Everyone acts in different ways, but cheaters almost always are looking out for number 1, playing all the angles and trying out what might work for them.

[This message edited by longsadstory1952 at 1:35 PM, October 28th (Wednesday)]

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 SeeYaIamOut (original poster member #75524) posted at 10:09 PM on Wednesday, October 28th, 2020

beenthereinco

To me the difference is in the expectation of result from the truth. A wayward that gives a confession with the expectation that is now off of them and all on the betrayed to forgive is not doing it with the right attitude. If you look on the Wayward side you will see that the thoughtful posters there understand that a confession of the truth does not obligate the BS to reconcile. It just allows the BS to make a fully-informed decision about their life.

And therein lies the rub. Intent. It's the reason I am so confounded by the whole "tell the truth but be sincere" argument. It relies on extending trust to someone that is not trustworthy. Need truth to move forward but...it may or not be the truth. I believed her the first Dday, admittedly with time I was not certain I knew everything. But I had to either believe her or not and I could only make a decision based on the evidence I had. Which by the way backed up her story. Then the party and the revelations in the phone that she lied. Again I had to deal with what I was given. Then the revelation that she knew home from years ago and the year prior to the PA it was an EA. I am unable to deal with anything because "anything" changes from day-to-day. The devastating affect of TT is real.

longsadstory1952

Don't get too wrapped up in this question. Everyone acts in different ways, but cheaters almost always are looking out for number 1, playing all the angles and trying out what might work for them.

Yeah I think that rabbit hole needs to be filled in.

posts: 61   ·   registered: Sep. 24th, 2020
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nekonamida ( member #42956) posted at 10:40 PM on Wednesday, October 28th, 2020

And therein lies the rub. Intent. It's the reason I am so confounded by the whole "tell the truth but be sincere" argument.

To me, it's clear in your case. You pointed out minimizations in her letter and lies of omission. Chances are, there's a whole lot more of those going on when it comes to the things you don't have evidence for. If she really was saying things like she was under OM's spell, then that too is a mischaracterization of the truth meant to shift blame over to him because OM isn't a spell caster. He's not a hypnotist or even probably a master manipulator given how many people knew he was bad news. He wasn't doing anything special to her at all. She chose to keep seeing him so the truth has nothing to do with anything he did that she didn't choose to go along with.

Given the above, the intent is crystal clear - throw out a story that fits the evidence, casts the least amount of blame possible on her, and plays on your heart strings for pity. It didn't have that affect on you but it doesn't matter. This was her final hour hail Mary attempt at giving you the truth wrapped neatly in pity party wrapping paper. Sure, there was likely plenty of factual information involved but it was presented in a way that was aimed at spinning a narrative where she was a victim of infidelity perpetrated by the OM and not just abuse. That's why it's not sincere and it is evidence of a wayward mindset.

Think about it - how can she accept herself as a wayward who needs to change into a safe spouse if she believes she can be easily manipulated by the OM? If he's this master manipulator and she has no control over the situation, what's to stop him from coming back to her when he's bored with his GF or breaks up with her? If she runs with the narrative she has created for you then she runs the risk of always being a cheater as soon as the OM snaps his fingers and she's back under his spell again. That's a wayward mind set because realistically, she can heal and become a former wayward but only if she acknowledges the choices she made that allowed her to cheat which have very little to do with what the OM did or didn't do.

posts: 5072   ·   registered: Mar. 31st, 2014   ·   location: United States
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smolderingdark ( member #64064) posted at 1:25 AM on Thursday, October 29th, 2020

Been a few days since I checked on your situation so I apologize in advance if I my post seems out of touch.

Your wayward wife's 10 page letter changes nothing.

If she had told you about her desires when it would have been appropriate to do so (years ago) it would have changed nothing. She would have betrayed you all the same.

You did everything in your power to build a future with your wife. You would have done anything you could to help her. She would have still betrayed you. You cannot fix broken. Your wife is not able to find happiness on her own/within. Years ago she thought the AP was the solution to the void within. AP had no use for her long term. She expected you would solve all her problems. What happened when the AP reentered her life? She gave up the marriage, you and the kids pretty quick chasing after the happiness she mistakenly believed she would find being with the AP. She was nothing more than a convenient place for the love of her life to park his penis.

Many waywards throw away solid marriages to chase after the shiny new toy or the one that got away? Your wife will always try to fill this emotional emptiness/unhappiness with one person or another. Happiness, fulfillment, etc is not something you can find in another person.

You are fortunate that you have more information than most other betrayed spouses. The information you obtained on your own - Your wife did not share it with you. Be aware that your wife will always put herself first.

She has offered generous terms for divorce. Would recommend you move quickly before her generosity evaporates. Perhaps she is sincere. Were I you I wouldn't be willing to gamble and lose to find out. Get all that you can from her while you can. You can't fix broken. You can however break yourself in the process of trying.

You don't have a special place in her heart. If you did she wouldn't have chosen her AP over you. You are the only option she feels she has on the table, just as it was all those years ago when you first met her. Whatever remorse and sincerity she is offering at the moment will last so long as she thinks there is a chance to hold on to the stability you have provided all these years. She will never be over the AP. When he calls on her again she will RUN back to him only to be used and discarded again.

You have already given your best to this woman. You even gave her the gift of reconciliation. In the end she has squandered it all. This chapter of your life is closed. She is the past. Your wife isn't losing anything because she gave it all away, the marriage, you, the kids. No one took anything from her.

Push the divorce through as quickly as possible. You owe her nothing, not even the truth. You have said you do not want to hurt her. That's fine but you have done nothing to harm her. All of her pain is self inflicted. Poor choices have consequences.

posts: 140   ·   registered: Jun. 7th, 2018
id 8603126
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rambler ( member #43747) posted at 3:54 AM on Thursday, October 29th, 2020

The problem is your wife was in an abusive relationship. She gets out of that relationship only to return to the abuser.

Again is pulled out only to return to have her used against you.

Three years later she is again instantly pulled back in.

Your wife does not have a problem she has a serious problem that must be dealt with. She needs to deal with a professional who has the full story.

making it through

posts: 1279   ·   registered: Jun. 17th, 2014   ·   location: Chicago
id 8603168
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RocketRaccoon ( member #54620) posted at 6:59 AM on Thursday, October 29th, 2020

I don't see how she can move forward and heal, nor I or the children either without the truth. So the statement above appears to me seems counter intuitive to what all of us need. Including her. Now confessing does not mean I give absolution, quite the contrary. It has hardened my resolve to leave her and the marriage behind. I can see where a WS can use a confession to offload their own guilt.

Okay, here is my attempt to make some sense:

Your WW possibly felt that she had borne this 'burden' (of her own making, but it is still a burden), and she would want to be rid of it.

Yes, and absolutely, the truth is best for all, especially for the BS.

My take on this is that the children do need to know, but to what extent? Should they know her fetishes, what she did for her AP, describe the pictures she sent in detail?

To the BS, the ideal scenario would be 100% truth, so that the BS will have a clearer idea of how much shit they are standing in, and with that info, the pathway out of Infidelity becomes clearer.

For the children and anyone else, do they need to know all that, at the risk of damaging their relationship with the WS? If your WS goes full-bore with the unfiltered truth to your kids, their relationship may well be damaged beyond repair, but if that is the intent, then so be it.

So (gently now), I am not saying that she should not tell them about the betrayal, but to what extent. I think it best to have different levels of confession for different sets of people.

The WS only admitted it, in my opinion to ease their guilty conscious and at a time when they thought it would not cause the BS to leave.

Possibly.

As mentioned in other responses, the intent plays a huge part. Does she want to purge to:

- relieve herself of this terrible secret?

- help others heal?

It is like telling the OBS, is it out of revenge or empathy?

As to absolution, that does not always depend on the telling of the truth, as some have absolved without any truth (rug-sweeping), which is destructive in itself. You can also have full truth, but no absolution (also destructive on the BS on long run).

You cannot cure stupid

posts: 908   ·   registered: Aug. 12th, 2016   ·   location: South East Asia
id 8603189
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Buffer ( member #71664) posted at 9:54 AM on Thursday, October 29th, 2020

Rocket Racoon is right ‘You can’t cure stupid’.

Ultimately she is a cheater, they lie.

I believe she never addressed the physical abuse from when they were living together when she was 18. So her abuser did have power over her all those years later. She is now coming to terms with her actions; D.

She does need to divulge all info to Seeya, and in doing so can help her in her IC to help herself.

I just want to add that abuse is a power that POS had over her. All those years later and after the initial A DD those years ago. She needed to please AP as she was conditioned to. Hence the photos, requests for meetings etc. Yes she made the decision to do those things, but under a mindset that she was unsure as to why. The power the abuser holds over their victim.

Don’t shoot the messenger.

One day at a time.

[This message edited by Buffer at 11:20 PM, November 4th (Wednesday)]

Buffer

posts: 1207   ·   registered: Sep. 24th, 2019   ·   location: Australia
id 8603196
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beenthereinco ( member #56409) posted at 6:08 PM on Thursday, October 29th, 2020

And therein lies the rub. Intent.

Yes but one clue might be in statements she makes now. If she says something along the lines of "I've told you the whole truth now we can put this behind us" or shows any exasperation with how long this is taking you to "get over" then you know she just isn't getting it.

I'll also add for you that it is entirely possible and reasonable for you to have the whole truth right now (I doubt it but let's say you do.) and that she has now been completely honest. You know it all. You can still acknowledge that and even forgive her if you want and then Divorce. Her giving you the truth does not obligate you to accept that you want to stay married with that truth. Don't allow her to think that any confession means you have to stay. That is what I meant when I said the thoughtful folks on the Wayward side know this. They know that they should confess for themselves and for the Betrayed Spouse and then let go of the result. If the Wayward is still trying to manage the result for their own benefit or as they like to say to "spare your feelings" then I think you have a really hard to impossible chance to Reconcile. There has to be a humility from the Wayward that admits that the Betrayed has the right to make their own decision about their life from complete information and taking that away from them is continuing to abuse them.

posts: 1429   ·   registered: Dec. 13th, 2016
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 SeeYaIamOut (original poster member #75524) posted at 8:40 PM on Sunday, November 1st, 2020

I appreciate the information guys. I've read every response and will apply it as needed in my situation. The past few days have been busy so I'll fill you all in on the latest.

As of Friday noon I am a free agent. I have other contracts lined up so money should not be a factor going forward at least for the next few months.

I had a meeting with my lawyer Friday afternoon. Spent about two hours with her. Only thirty minutes on the agreement the rest was just us talking. I learned a lot about her reasons for becoming an attorney and I have even greater professional respect for her. And I learned a little about her personal life and that makes me like her as a person. I gave her my plan about meeting the STBXWW in a face to face meeting and she gave me some pointers regarding my strategy and again reminded me to be careful. Later Friday evening I sent a text to the STBX and requested her work schedule for the next ten days and I told her I would give her a couple of dates when we could meet. I informed her I had some ground rules and would send them after we settled on a date to meet.

Saturday morning I placed two phone calls. One to her cousin/best friend and the other to my MIL. I wish now I had spoken to her cousin a lot sooner. It was a great conversation and just reaffirmed how much I have grown to love her more as a sister than a relative to my STBX. The MIL call was a mixed bag.

Cousin was very pleasant when she answered the phone and voiced a great deal of concern on how I doing. When I mentioned why I called she interrupted me and said, "I told STBX that I would not call you or go out of my way to come and see you and tell you anything about what we (cousin & STBX) have talked about. But I did tell her if you ever asked, I would not lie to you about any of it." And she kept her word. She explained that she knew nothing about the affair until the phone call four months after it was to have supposedly stopped. She also did not know the affair continued into Feb 2018. She did get a call from STBX on the day we returned from the trip and she said STBX was extremely upset but would not tell her why. The cousin suggested I ask MIL about that day because she is certain that the STBX phoned her mother right after she hung up with the cousin. Cousin also did not know the AP was the same guy she lived with that was abusive. Cousin also said she now believes she knows everything including what went on during the eight months the affair was supposed to be over. She told me she would answer any question I asked but hoped I would ask the STBX first and give her the opportunity to confess all. I agreed and we said our good byes.

The call with my MIL was not as helpful. Again she did not know about the affair until after I found out about it. But she recognized who the AP was immediately and did not tell me. She did not get a phone call the day we returned from our trip in Feb 2018 from the STBX. Instead she got an in person visit. STBX went to her mother an confessed everything. Told her she did not tell me about the abusive relationship, told her about the year long EA, of course the PA, and the continuing affair after DDAY1. MIL knew everything. When I asked why she did not tell me or press her daughter into confessing she stated she did. But STBX was afraid I would leave her. MIL also was afraid I would leave and in my absence her daughter would take back AP. She said she did the only thing she knew that she could do to help he daughter. Keep her mouth shut and try to help her seek counseling. She did say the both her and my MIL were told by STBX that I knew about the abusive relationship and she was shocked to learn that she had not told me.

That's basically it. I'm mad. Disappointed. Sadden. I can't help thinking that if she had just not committed that one lie by omission. If she had had enough faith in me to tell me about the abusive relationship, then twenty plus years later we would be looking at a future together just as we planned. Just one bad decision is all it takes to change multiple lives.

The face to face meeting will take place soon. I have a lot of questions. I'm sure that there are some questions I will not think of so feel free to throw in any you think need to be asked. I will also go over the agreement with her before I asked my lawyer to send it to her attorney's. I know a lot people will explode at this but trust me...I have a strategy here and I have ran it past my lawyer. She has not put her stamp of approval on it by no means but she understands my end goal here so she is not making a fuss about it. As she says, "if I fuck up it just means she can charge me more billable hours."

Again thank you for listening and offering your help.

posts: 61   ·   registered: Sep. 24th, 2020
id 8604368
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smolderingdark ( member #64064) posted at 1:01 AM on Monday, November 2nd, 2020

I can't help thinking that if she had just not committed that one lie by omission. If she had had enough faith in me to tell me about the abusive relationship, then twenty plus years later we would be looking at a future together just as we planned. Just one bad decision is all it takes to change multiple lives.

If your wife was not broken she may have come to you. But she is broken. No matter how good or bad you were as her husband it would have changed nothing. She would have still betrayed you for her abuser. You have never been her first choice, you have always been the safe choice. The issue is not you, but her. It was not just one bad decision as you have said. It was many. She did what she did because she wanted to. Her primary concern through all of this was to get back with her abuser, in her words to you, the love of her life.

I will also go over the agreement with her before I asked my lawyer to send it to her attorney's. I know a lot people will explode at this but trust me...I have a strategy here and I have ran it past my lawyer. She has not put her stamp of approval on it by no means but she understands my end goal here so she is not making a fuss about it.

I would council you to avoid asking too many questions at this meeting. Any truths you have discovered up to this point you have done on your own. She has not volunteered anything or done much to truly make amends to you since this all started. Let her assume erroneously she still has secrets from you (for now). Keep her agreeable and get the most favorable terms for yourself possible.

I hope you find success with the strategy you have in mind.

posts: 140   ·   registered: Jun. 7th, 2018
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ramius ( member #44750) posted at 3:36 AM on Monday, November 2nd, 2020

She did say the both her and my MIL were told by STBX that I knew about the abusive relationship and she was shocked to learn that she had not told me.

Wonder why she told them that.

As to why she never told you.....could be she was too broken.

Could also be that she was still pining for him, and thus keeping her options open in case they ever got back in touch.

Who knows. Hell she may not even be able to tell you if she wanted to. It seems he was deeply embedded in her hindbrain.

How many scars have you rationalized because you loved the person who was holding the knife?

Their actions reveal their intentions. Their words conceal them.

posts: 1609   ·   registered: Sep. 3rd, 2014
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DeWittle ( member #50857) posted at 5:24 AM on Monday, November 2nd, 2020

She told me she would answer any question I asked but hoped I would ask the STBX first and give her the opportunity to confess all.

Actually, I think with the info you pulled off the burner phone, you have all the information. Except maybe WW’s mindset during the eight month A.

Do you still have access to the email account she communicated with POS? Kind of telling and maybe a heads-up for you if she tries to contact POS again.

posts: 331   ·   registered: Dec. 17th, 2015
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longsadstory1952 ( member #29048) posted at 12:54 PM on Monday, November 2nd, 2020

The only question I can think of is how she can view this guy as the love of her life. She will try to deflect with the intoxication, but that is not acceptable. In wine there is truth.

And is she really asking you to accept that in all the 20 odd years she never gave him any thought.

Are you gonna drop the bomb about finding the phone?

posts: 1091   ·   registered: Jul. 14th, 2010
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Tigersrule77 ( member #47339) posted at 3:37 PM on Tuesday, November 3rd, 2020

Sounds like your D should be relatively easy. I know that doesn't seem like a blessing, but it is. No one goes into M looking towards a D. it always sucks.

I hope you receive the information you want from the meeting with your WW. I hope it helps you heal. From what you have written, I don't know what you are looking for, maybe confirmation of some things that are open in your mind.

Regardless, I wish you the best. You have shown that you are a strong person and you will continue to thrive. You now just need to figure out what you want your future to look like.

posts: 1558   ·   registered: Mar. 27th, 2015   ·   location: Maryland
id 8605000
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