Newest Member: Loyalandbetrayed

Just Found Out :
WS has no idea I know

Topic is Sleeping.
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justsayno ( New Member #75179) posted at 2:56 AM on Monday, September 7th, 2020

Hi @NeverTwice,

Nice post. I'd like to read the article you referenced and you said that the text version is free. The first Google Scholar (I didn't know this existed either. Thanks!) entry took me to a Healio dot com site. When I click the Full Text tab, it really only jumps down the page a bit and offers the login screen. Is there something I'm not doing right? I'm not a Healio dot com member.

posts: 29   ·   registered: Aug. 14th, 2020
id 8584310
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RocketRaccoon ( Member #54620) posted at 7:53 AM on Monday, September 7th, 2020

FF,

Backtracking a bit.

This all happened shortly (within a day) of me getting the evidence, and when I did, something completely unexpected happened. I felt relieved. Normal. What I received confirmed everything that I had suspected and felt. It showed me the lies I had been told and the extent to which C and WS had gone to construct the situations that allowed WS to meet with AP. It showed them complaining about me and laughing about the A, encouraging and wallowing in the excitement of it all.

My mood lifted, and I was calm. I wasn't going to die, and I wasn't a danger to anyone. If anything I was very perceptive, and felt like I had a super power almost. I don't know what this calm is (I have another appointment with my therapist soon, so I'll ask her), but I have used it to show a facade of normalcy - even happiness in the presence of others. WS even commented that I seemed much better. Back to my old self, in fact!

High probability is that you realised that you were not going crazy after all. The data that you had was actually true, and as such, your conclusion was valid. This gave you a sense of 'completeness' in your data, and hence the calm that you felt.

It can be insanely annoying to a logic based thinker when the data seems to not match the observations. You will question the veracity of your data collection methods, since the others around you tell you that the data is incorrect.

Your calmness comes from gaining control back. That your data is correct. That you can now rely on the data to proceed forwards and use it to form theories with high probabilities of being correct, as the information on which it is based on is solid.

You, sir, have taken back control, and it is a good thing.

You cannot cure stupid

posts: 888   ·   registered: Aug. 12th, 2016   ·   location: South East Asia
id 8584391
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BindassBP ( Member #75283) posted at 4:50 PM on Monday, September 7th, 2020

If anyone has any advice on breaking this to the kids, I'm all ears. They are only young - 5 and 6, and the eldest is

very emotionally sensitive. They are both doing so well, and I don't want to hurt their perception of security.

Considering their age you dont have to tell them anything right now. Keep things as normal as possible. If you decide to D(or separatre), you can tell them something like, "You have two homes now, Mommy's home and Daddy's home."

I understand you want to R but you dont want these kind of things to happen again. So, let her earn it.Trust shouldn't be given away freely. It should be earned. Look after yourself. Focus on YOUR wellbeing. Take care of your kids. Take care.

posts: 72   ·   registered: Aug. 29th, 2020
id 8584485
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Bigger ( Guide #8354) posted at 5:39 PM on Monday, September 7th, 2020

If you want steak for dinner what is more likely to get the correct result: walking about the house mooing like a cow or simply saying that you want steak?

The bane of marriages, the complexity-integer of divorce and the impossibility-factor in reconciliation is bad communications. Right now, your wife has the message:

I am divorcing and this marriage is over.

And the message

These are the conditions you need to abide to.

These are contradictions IMHO.

It’s an un-clear message. It’s a moo when you want steak.

In my boilerplate I suggested you tell her that unless she clearly and verbally committed to reconciliation you were simply assuming the marriage is over. That even if she did then you would want to see actions to convince you she wants the marriage and until you were convinced you were behaving as she had chosen infidelity.

If she’s 100% clear she wants the marriage then you peel away the reasons for why.

What this leaves you with is either a clear vision that she’s chosen the affair or that she’s clear that she is married to you because she wants to – not because she’s forced to.

Regarding the kids:

At their age (5 and 6) I would not tell them unless you are determined to divorce. Mom and dad are having an adult argument and will spend time apart. That should do for now.

Confrontation and it’s aftermath is not about causing pain or revenge. It’s about surviving with the minimal pain. God knows there is enough of it anyways without us adding to it. At the kids age they realize something is amiss, but you two should be adult enough to minimize that uncertainty and pain. IMHO telling them NOW about their moms affair would only have negative effects and no advantage whatsoever.

IF you decide to divorce then you tell them in an age-appropriate way. It then becomes a life-altering issue for them, and I believe they should know at that point.

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone." Epictetus

posts: 9858   ·   registered: Sep. 29th, 2005
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 freefaller (original poster New Member #75304) posted at 10:06 AM on Tuesday, September 8th, 2020

OK, so Sunday was interesting.

* Explained to a (not close) friend about what his wife's friend, C, had been doing. They are having some difficulties

on and off, and I wanted to give him the heads-up that C was not the sort of person to help. Felt good about doing

that, and he thanked me and offered his support.

* Spoke to WS in the morning.

- I was undecided about telling the girls, and kept flip-flopping. On one side, I want to explain what's happening, but on

the other, if we can work things out without forcing the problem onto our kids, then I'd prefer to do that. I told WS

to come up with something to tell the girls and to tell me what she is going to say.

- I told WS that she will need to inform the school so that we can be sure that there are no behavioural changes or

problems with the girls. This will need to be done irrespective of the girls being told.

- I asked WS if she had completed the timeline. She had. It's a fairly dry recounting of the facts, but it's a start,

and it can be refined.

- I told WS that I will be collecting the girls and that I'd bring them to her to see them. I asked her if she needed

me to bring her anything from home.

* Collected the girls, and went ot see WS

- WS and I played with the girls for a bit until we decided we needed to talk.

- A relative took the girls outside to play in the garden while we talked.

- She reiterated that she was sorry, that she was remorseful for what she had done and that she would do anything to

try to work it out. I asked if she was sure, and asked if she would leave her new business. She said she would if

that's what I wanted. She has found a MC for us to see together. I did not suggest this, and this was done on her

own initiative. She had spoken to a friend who has been through something similar (though as a BS, not a WS), and

she (the friend, lets call her 'Z') said that MC worked very well. Z is also WS's business partner. I asked whether

Z knew about the A, and WS said she didn't. I confirmed this by asking Z directly and also checking through messages

sent over the past couple of days. I told WS that I did not want her to leave her business.

- As WS has expressed a deep desire (as far as I can tell) to try to rebuild, I said that I would cancel the divorce

solicitor appointment, that she did not have to tell the kids today, and that she could come back home, though she

will be sleeping downstairs on the couch. She thanked me and reiterated how sorry and remorseful she feels.

* We went home, ate, sorted the girls out for bed and we sat in the living room together and began reading the books that she

had bought. We spoke, but I can't help being terse. There were tears from her, but I can't tell if they are genuine. I

thought they were, but the lies over the past few weeks make it hard to be sure.

* WS suggested going for a run together tomorrow morning.

Monday

* Got up early again, and went for a bike ride.

* Got back after an hour, and the girls were up, and WS was awake and she had got them breakfast! This has not happened

for some time, and I know it's going to be a guilt / display of trying thing, but it gave me a rush of hope.

* I still couldn't look at her for too long, and my mood kept changing from anger and resentment to humiliation and a

feeling of being used.

* I took the girls to school

* We went for a run, and it felt tense. Normally we'd chat and I'd encourage her and it'd feel like we'd done something

together by the end. This time, I could barely speak to her. I stayed with her and stopped when she needed a break,

but I felt like she was just there, not like I was participating in something *with* her.

* Her insta profile picture and the last picture she shared was this really pretty picture of her in the park.

It's a cold, windy day, and she's tucked into her coat with her hood up, smiling and looking fantastic. I commented

when she posted that she looked so good (she'd done her makeup especially). The picture was taken maybe an hour after

she'd met the AP for sex, using our kids as the excuse to go to the park, and having had her friend , C, cover for

her. It was taken the Friday before last. It's a picture that sums up the deceit so completely that I can no longer

look at it. It was still her profile picture and on her insta when we went for the run, so I told her to delete it.

She did once we got back home.

* I gave WS a copy (I extracted the text and saved it to PDF, no links) of "Before You Say Reconcile... Recover" from

the healing library. I told her not to go looking for the source of the article as I considered it a safe, personal

space. She took the article and read it.

* We spoke some more, and in all fairness, I was feeling more angry when we did. I didn't want to say much, but I took

her over how I was feeling, and she cried. I didn't shout or act out violently, but I was seething with frustration

and rage. I cooked tea for us both. Just a salad, chicken and potato thing. Not fussy, but tasty and nutritious. We

both struggled to eat.

* We read some more of the books ("NOT just friends" and "How can I ever trust you again"). We spoke a little more, and

I'm trying to be patient, but every time she opens her mouth, all I feel she's telling me are lies.

Tuesday

* Early start again, and WS is up by the time I finish my shower, and has once again given the girls their breakfast.

* She goes shopping as she needs to get some bits for her business and grabs some lunch for us both (sushi) and gets

some other bits too.

* She's in work today, so I get the girls ready and take them to school. I feel calmer this morning, but I still can't

speak to her much.

* She's in work today, and I feel really anxious. I ask her bunch of questions, so I must sound like a paranoid loon.

Things like "When are you back", "are you going anywhere", "who's in with you", "are you having visitors", etc...

* I check her phone for evidence of anything untoward (not that she would have anything at this stage if she was

planning something). I see some messages to Z saying she's grateful to me for letting her come home as well as som

other messages of hope for rebuilding. These could of course just have been said so that I would see them if / when I

check her phone.

* She left for work.

Anyhow, here we are. Tuesday morning and it's nearly time for my second therapy appointment. I'm staying active and to

be fair, not being able to eat, and only eating healthy food when I can, is doing wonders for my weight loss. Think I've

lost nearly 5kg in the last few weeks. Sleeping is hard. I wake up regularly from nightmares, I don't really feel

rested, and I'm soaked with sweat every night.

I realise these are early days, so I'm trying to examine my thinking more and trying to manage the thoughts I have. I'm

attempting to classify them into memories (things that have definitely happened, and my opinions of them) and fantasies

(things I have no idea of what happened because I wasn't there, or they have not happened at all). I've been trying to

tone down the negative self-talk and moderate my emotions as best I can. I think my therapist will be able to help me

here, because I still feel very much overwhelmed.

I'll continue posting here unless I'm supposed to be somewhere else, but frequency will likely be lower as I'm coming

out of the crisis and need to find time to process all this.

One day at a time, I guess.

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The1stWife ( Member #58832) posted at 10:28 AM on Tuesday, September 8th, 2020

I’m sorry to see you struggling but we have all been there.

We understand the pain this infidelity has thrown at you.

But you are doing your best. Just keep telling yourself that.

You are focused on your children and that is what keeps you focused right now. Nothing wrong with that.

I don’t know if your marriage will survive this. It’s up to you. You have to figure out if you can live with your wife after what she has done. Some can and some cannot. Counseling will help you tremendously and I think that is a good thing for you.

Sorry you are here. But it will get better. It just takes time.

Survived two affairs and brink of Divorce. Happily reconciled.

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jinkazama ( Member #61319) posted at 10:43 AM on Tuesday, September 8th, 2020

How long was the affair btw?

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Robert22205https ( Member #65547) posted at 12:03 PM on Tuesday, September 8th, 2020

If your wife is truly remorseful, fixes herself, and becomes trustworthy, then it gets better over time.

Unfortunately, there is no quick fix it takes time.

Your reactions, emotions, anger and especially the lack of trust is normal at this stage.

It's ok to express how you feel (including your anger and lack of trust). It too will get better.

In the interim, listening to you and observing your pain is part of the consequences of your wife's decision to cheat. And it's also a test of how committed she is to rebuilding trust and your marriage.

Right now you are disgusted just looking at her or hearing her voice.

However, in time, if she does the hard work those feelings of anger/distrust/disgust can be replaced with pride in her dedication/determination/hard work to fix herself for you and your marriage.

[This message edited by Robert22205https at 6:03 AM, September 8th (Tuesday)]

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Notmine ( Member #57221) posted at 12:19 PM on Tuesday, September 8th, 2020

Please be careful of MC. IC for your WW with a counselor that specializes infidelity should be a non-negotiable (the WS needs to fix what is broken in them that made cheating any sort of option). Marriage counselors can do more harm than good unless you have one that specializes in infidelity. They really can enable Wayward behavior. I would highly recommend interviewing BOTH the IC and MC. My FWH and I entered into MC shortly after discovery. Luckily, the counselor specialized in infidelity. We quickly realized that my husband needed much more than MC. He started going to IC and continues to do so- almost 5 years later. He strongly feels that without IC, he would not have worked on the issues he had which lead to his cheating and would have been at risk for cheating again.

When you're going through hell, for God's sake, DON'T STOP!

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DictumVeritas ( Member #74087) posted at 12:31 PM on Tuesday, September 8th, 2020

I just want to add my voice to Notmine's.

If the Marriage Councilor puts even a bit of the blame of the affair onto you or even hints that you did something that caused or contributed to the affair, you just say:

"I will take 50% of the blame for what may be wrong in the marriage, but the blame for the affair is 100% on her. Right now we don't have a marriage until the aftermath of the affair is dealt with. Once that is done and I decide that there is a relationship to work on, only then can we address any of what I did wrong in the marriage."

If the MC persists, fire him/her on the spot and walk away, because they will be an affair apologist you do not wish to waste your time on. They will do more damage by legitimizing your wife's choice to have an affair in her own mind and unless you are into rug-sweeping, they are no friend of yours.

Your life is but a flicker to the cosmos and only the brightest flickers are recorded by history for good or bad. Most of us just want to live our lives without being interfered with.

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clouds777 ( Member #72442) posted at 12:34 PM on Tuesday, September 8th, 2020

I strongly discourage you from going to marriage counseling. Your wife is the problem. She needs at least 6 months of counseling before mc is worth it. Especially since you already are allowing her back home etc..

I would suggest you move forward with the solicitor and require progress in individual counseling before you even consider marriage counseling. Why not go to the solicitor and get your affairs in order? She is going to blame the marriage for her affair until she gets the counseling to allow her to determine what inside of her allowed sex with another man to be on the decision tree for her problems.

[This message edited by clouds777 at 6:34 AM, September 8th (Tuesday)]

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Buffer ( Member #71664) posted at 1:09 PM on Tuesday, September 8th, 2020

Freefaller, well done, it is a good mantra, one day at a time.

Keep everything going, eating well, exercising, IC, and most of all look after the children.

Your WW is in early days, she has a long way to go before she has truly hit rock bottom and then realised the ramifications of her actions.

I would ask you when comfortable to raise the manipulative aspect of her and C actions, the way it was pushing you over the edge and why the seemed to revel in your darkness?

One day at a time and strength to you.

Buffer

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Butforthegrace ( Member #63264) posted at 1:12 PM on Tuesday, September 8th, 2020

Her insta profile picture and the last picture she shared was this really pretty picture of her in the park.

It's a cold, windy day, and she's tucked into her coat with her hood up, smiling and looking fantastic. I commented

when she posted that she looked so good (she'd done her makeup especially). The picture was taken maybe an hour after

she'd met the AP for sex, using our kids as the excuse to go to the park, and having had her friend , C, cover for

her. It was taken the Friday before last. It's a picture that sums up the deceit so completely that I can no longer

look at it. It was still her profile picture and on her insta when we went for the run, so I told her to delete it.

She did once we got back home.

You should save it for posterity and ask her to describe how she was feeling in that moment.

I agree with the others about about MC. Don't do it. It's way too early. Most newly minted BS's here have had awful experiences with MC. These people are mostly quacks who push you to rug-sweep and "accept your share of blame" (or similar bullshit) for the A.

"The wicked man flees when no one chases."

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thatbpguy ( Member #58540) posted at 2:59 PM on Tuesday, September 8th, 2020

We spoke some more, and in all fairness, I was feeling more angry when we did. I didn't want to say much, but I took her over how I was feeling....

The reason you feel angry ( and will do so for a long time) is because she lied to you and deceived you so she could have her wild fantasy sex time. All the while you remained faithful. Now, she wants to continue the marriage with little to no punishment while you have to just take it. That hurts maybe even worse than her betrayal.

You're so early into this. I wouldn't make any concrete decisions for at least 90 days post dday. You need time to digest this more fully. Right now she is sorry for being caught and not for the betrayal. The image people have of her has changed and she is down about that. But it takes time to tell if she really wants to fix herself and be the wife you need her to be or if this is the general temporary remorsefulness of a betrayer being caught. And you need to determine if this is the person you want to be with in 3, 5, 10, 25 years down the road.

I don't know the laws of where you live, but I would recommend continuing the separation and taking charge of the kids legally. She can visit.

Also, I would recommend IC for her before MC for the both of you. She needs to fix herself before the two of you try and fix the marriage. Marriage counseling won't help her with her personal issues and they will still be there during and after MC.

ME: BHHer: WWDDay 1, R; DDay 2, R; DDay 3, I leftDivorcedRemarried to a wonderful woman

"There are far, far better things ahead than any we leave behind." C.S. Lewis

As a dog returns to his vomit, so a fool repeats his folly...

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Kaliber ( Member #74046) posted at 3:01 PM on Tuesday, September 8th, 2020

Hi freefaller, you have made some progress but know it will be very hard!

I would strongly advice you to cancel the MC, tell you wife no MC now, only IC for her and you with someone that has good experience with infidelity.

After she figures out why she did what she did then MC comes into the picture.

[This message edited by Kaliber at 9:03 AM, September 8th (Tuesday)]

You don't have a choice of being a victim, but you always have a choice of remaining one!

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Robert22205https ( Member #65547) posted at 3:05 PM on Tuesday, September 8th, 2020

Among other things, cheaters typically lack empathy for their spouse but it's something they can learn/approve on (but not on their own).

Therefore, in deciding whether to offer her R , consider asking her how she thinks you feel or felt:

- when you first discovered her affair.

- when you discovered that C & her boyfriend not only actively conspired in her affair but collectively stonewalled you recently in the park and then made it appear that it's all in your head.

- when you saw that photo (taken after having sex with the OM) she continued to use in social media.

- when she wears the jacket she wore to have sex with the OM.

- the next time you take the kids to the park.

- the next time she takes the kids for a 'play date' (with anyone).

- or the next time she has a male friend or just has coffee with a guy at work (or goes anywhere without you).

- the next time she's sitting across the room texting.

Finally, consider having her respond in writing (it requires deeper thought on her part and is a higher quality learning experience). And provides an opportunity to reply with exactly how you feel/felt.

[This message edited by Robert22205https at 9:09 AM, September 8th (Tuesday)]

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Bigger ( Guide #8354) posted at 3:21 PM on Tuesday, September 8th, 2020

Need to understand what the purpose of MC should be.

She didn’t cheat because of the marriage, so going to MC to “fix” the marriage so she won’t cheat… That’s like putting a cast on your foot to cure a toothache.

MC can help with things, BUT SHE DIDN’T CHEAT BECAUSE OF ISSUES IN THE MARRIAGE.

What the MC can do is help you two in good, productive communications.

I won’t deny it… A lot of what you share sounds scripted, as if your WW is complying with each and every point and demand. OK – that could happen and maybe you have been fortunate so far but just for those that read this thread to learn from it:

Some of your demands and some comments reg. divorce are not enforceable or realistic.

At any time or point she could have refused to leave the house. Unless you are posting from some last ISIS stronghold or the Taliban controlled hills of Afghanistan then a spouse has a legal residence in the family home irrespective of ownership or finances.

Same with coming back. She doesn’t need your permission or blessing per se.

You can make demands on how D goes, but laws control what happens. Things like custody, division of assets etc. are not really so much within our control.

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone." Epictetus

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survrus ( Member #67698) posted at 3:34 PM on Tuesday, September 8th, 2020

FF,

You wrote, Again, just an astonishing amount of support and really excellent advice.

Yea it's like the WW and OM are chasing you with a stick, and you see a hole to jump into, turns out there are marines with 50 cals, sharp shooters and grenade launchers in the foxhole who got your back. The bullying of WW and OM gets shot to hell and the battle turns quickly.

posts: 1036   ·   registered: Nov. 1st, 2018   ·   location: USA
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99problems ( Member #59373) posted at 3:52 PM on Tuesday, September 8th, 2020

I must echo the other posters about the futility of MC. It gave my STBXW lots of ammo to continue to gaslight me and deceive me into 4 years of false R. Do not do it.

Got me a new forum name!<BR />Formerly Idiotmcstupid.<BR />I am divorced, so not as much of an idiot now- 4/15/21,

posts: 1000   ·   registered: Jun. 26th, 2017   ·   location: Colorado
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Stevesn ( Member #58312) posted at 4:18 PM on Tuesday, September 8th, 2020

You are getting good advice here. Definitely wait on MC. You should each get 3-6 months of IC under your belts before deciding whether or not to attempt MC.

You should be working with a trauma specialist and her with a specialist in Infidelity.

I think I said this to you a few pages back that she should add details to the timeline about what she was thinking and feeling each time she interacted with the AP. Ask her to do this.

This was an emotional injury of the highest order that she has Laid on you. You need time to heal and she needs time to figure out why she felt this was ok to do to her husband and the callous way she talked to her enabling friend about it.

fBBF. Just before proposing, broke it off after her 2nd confirmed PA in 2 yrs. 9 mo later I met the wonderful woman I have spent the next 30 years with.

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Topic is Sleeping.
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