Newest Member: Loyalandbetrayed

Just Found Out :
WS has no idea I know

Topic is Sleeping.

Wanttobebetter ( Member #72484) posted at 12:26 AM on Sunday, September 6th, 2020

dude, I don't have much to offer in terms of advise. But if I can brighten your day in any way, more than happen to do.

posts: 135   ·   registered: Jan. 6th, 2020
id 8583966

justsayno ( New Member #75179) posted at 1:09 AM on Sunday, September 6th, 2020

FWIW freefaller,

I was pretty certain that your being adamant about the D statement during the confrontation was exactly as you re-described recently. That is, as a forcing function to see of your WW would get even close to remorseful. I recall you viewing her relationship with C as the litmus test to gauge sincerity. And, I believe the way you approached the whole thing helped you get a lot of the information that you were needing to get. So, in my view, the boundaries that you stated made perfect sense. It was a 'hidden' set of requirements to even consider R at some point. And, as you've stated it more than one, the default position is D until you choose otherwise.

I believe you have executed this pretty flawlessly so far.

In your recent 'state of mind' post, I think I saw for the first time a comment about the morning after pill... (maybe I missed it earlier). Did that really happen? I'm curious what her explanation for that was (just curious).

All shitty things considered, so far so good.

posts: 29   ·   registered: Aug. 14th, 2020
id 8583979

Robert22205https ( Member #65547) posted at 1:28 AM on Sunday, September 6th, 2020

How old are you guys?

How long married?

How long have you know her?

What's your wife's previous relationship history?

posts: 2409   ·   registered: Jul. 22nd, 2018   ·   location: DC
id 8583984

DeWittle ( Member #50857) posted at 2:13 AM on Sunday, September 6th, 2020

FF, sorry for your situation. Your post about the gaslighting was so HARD to read, that just breaks my heart and infuriates me. You’v e gotten some really good advice but more importantly you dealt with your sitch like a boss. Your decisive actions completely destroyed your WW fairytale world and set you up for success in which ever route you decide, R or D. I know your world is rocking right now but know that you are getting GREAT advice and there is a Hugh group of us in the background rooting for you, strength through numbers Brother.

posts: 322   ·   registered: Dec. 17th, 2015
id 8583999

Buffer ( Member #71664) posted at 2:34 AM on Sunday, September 6th, 2020

Brother, that depression is a mind fuck, keep up the IC regardless how you feel.

Strength to you, you handled the whole situation well. Researched, analysed, summarised then in a calm space, confronted. You gave your position and there is no reading between the lines.

I may have missed it is your STBX wife back in the family home?

I didn’t think about the Tinder app, well done. Sounds like C had her window shopping for more than the one she already had.

Just take your time, seek the full time line, both a PG and X rated. But remember once read or heard it can not be unread or un heard. Discuss this with your IC. You have to look out for yourself and the darling children. Keep up the exercise, talk with friends, start detaching from your wife. Keep the 180 and be that grey rock. If your WW was actively looking for more APs, just curiosity were you looking at a new abode with your wife? If she is way deep in A and looking at Tinder, why make you go through this? Sounds cruel manipulative actions by her.

One day at a time.

[This message edited by Buffer at 8:40 PM, September 5th (Saturday)]


posts: 1191   ·   registered: Sep. 24th, 2019   ·   location: Australia
id 8584010

Cooley2here ( Member #62939) posted at 2:55 AM on Sunday, September 6th, 2020

I suggest you read Speedbump’s posts. She and her husband moved from the US to Europe. She was the main breadwinner and he did all the work on getting their home fixed. They befriended their neighbor who was also an expat. By accident she found they were having an affair under her nose and trying to rub it in it without telling her. It was driving her crazy and finally put her in the hospital. Right now your body has had so much stress that your mind has shut things down except for the essentials, like breathing. It will “wake” up and then you are going to deal with every emotion on the planet.

Be sure to look after your health. Consider that you have been in a terrible accident and need to heal. Yours is emotional but it is just as painful.

To thine own self be true. Shakespeare

posts: 2902   ·   registered: Mar. 5th, 2018   ·   location: US
id 8584014

Tempocontour ( Member #65971) posted at 5:20 AM on Sunday, September 6th, 2020

I would like to think that your feeling of calmness and relief is because you were finally able to figure everything out. You got answers you were looking for when you got your evidence. You are in total control. BTW, how did you find out that your WW was having an affair? I don't think you mentioned on how you found out.

posts: 76   ·   registered: Aug. 25th, 2018   ·   location: Northeast
id 8584050

Sceadugenga ( Member #74429) posted at 5:41 AM on Sunday, September 6th, 2020

Freefaller, I just want you to know that you are not alone in your experience of gaslighting at the hands of your wife and "friends". I could've written almost the exact same story months ago. I'll forever wonder how many of them knew (I'm only certain about two) what was really going on and how much they knew. How many had been fed a distorted picture of the relationship, how many were quietly rooting for her and encouraging her to "have her needs met" and how many laughed at me behind my back or pitied me knowing about her betrayal.

It's something worth taking up with your counsellor because it wears down your self-esteem and your ability to trust people. Hang in there, Brother.

posts: 274   ·   registered: May. 13th, 2020
id 8584057

DictumVeritas ( Member #74087) posted at 5:43 AM on Sunday, September 6th, 2020


That detached feeling you experiencing right now is most likely indicative that you are still in a state of shock. It lasted for more than a month for me the first time I experienced it after that, the normal stages of grief set in.

Stay strong...

[This message edited by DictumVeritas at 11:53 PM, September 5th (Saturday)]

Your life is but a flicker to the cosmos and only the brightest flickers are recorded by history for good or bad. Most of us just want to live our lives without being interfered with.

posts: 225   ·   registered: Mar. 22nd, 2020   ·   location: South-Africa
id 8584060

 freefaller (original poster New Member #75304) posted at 7:05 AM on Sunday, September 6th, 2020

Is my understanding correct, that your wife realized you were losing your mind and not only did she not have any empathy

for you - but your distress added to her enjoyment/excitement?

No idea if it added anything to the excitement, but it looks like it added a layer of justification (WW: "BS was so quiet today - he's really

moody lately" C: "I know it's hard for you, just look forward to Friday" etc etc...)


@squid Not waivering, friend. I just don't know what to do, or what I want clearly yet, which means I cannot make a

decision. The only thing I can do is give *me* more time. No decision is still a decision, so I have to choose a default

course of action, and if I have no strong feelings or desire to R or if there is no action on WS side, then it's D.

I'll keep my guard up. Thankyou for the thoughts.


@justsayno Yeah, you're right. I hadn't mentioned the pill.

I found it accidentally while I was looking for my car key -

she sometimes takes my car then leaves the key in her bag. I saw it, and didn't immediately know what it was (it was

just in a branded blister pack) so I just put it back and looked up what it was later. Checked the following day, and it

was gone.

I did not mention anything to WS even though we had not had sex for a long while up to that point. I justified it

in my mind that it was hers for maybe later (i.e. she was planning on being intimate with me) or she had got it or was

holding it for someone she knew that couldn't or wouldn't buy it (i.e. doing a friend a favour and helping them).

But wait - there is more!

Later on in the month we had sex! We don't use condoms, and it's very hard for her to get pregnant, so she

normally just uses the morning after pill. I asked her if she's going to take one the following morning and she said

that she'd "need to go to the pharmacist to buy one". This was the Sunday of the weekend that I cracked, so I was

confused at this point, and my mind was racing. I asked whether she'd taken the morning after pill recently (not sure

why this didn't tip her off) and she said no - she only takes it when she needs it, and that it was probably when she

was at University when she last took one (when we had an active sex life, she was on birth control).

As you can imagine, this did nothing for my mental health.



We're both late 30s.

Married for just short of 9 years

Known her since College (same group of friends) Started an exclusive relationshipmwith her maybe 14 years ago.

Previously she had boyfriends and she never cheated to my knowledge. No strage behaviour at all as far as I'm aware.



I booted her out and had a neighbour take her to her mums house on Friday evening. She asked to talk to me yesterday,

and I went around when it was convenient for me (after visiting the girls for a couple of hours, doing a bunch of

chores, excercising, trying to eat, etc...). I stayed and listened for maybe 30 mins, and then left. She asked if she

could come back with me and I told her no. She said she needs to get some things from home, and I told her that she

should have text me a list of things to bring if she wanted to ask me to do that, and I'm not her errand boy.

Tinder app looks like something she set up in May when she was "Unbelievably horny, and if we don't meet up I'm going to

Tinder" as she wrote to AP. It looks like she did not act on it, but it's super sketchy, and I'll be broaching this with

her carefully. Is there any way on Tinder to know if conversations have been deleted? Any data recovery possible at all?

It only looks like she used the web version, so I'm thinking a Freedom of Information Request may be the only way.


@Tempocontour no sources, sorry.


@DictumVeritas yeah, that's what I'm worried about. I'll be chatting with my therapist about this next time.


Again, just an astonishing amount of support and really excellent advice. Thank you all for taking the time to help me.

I'm still processing, but I'll keep posting too.

If anyone has any advice on breaking this to the kids, I'm all ears. They are only young - 5 and 6, and the eldest is

very emotionally sensitive. They are both doing so well, and I don't want to hurt their perception of security.

posts: 20   ·   registered: Sep. 1st, 2020
id 8584073

DictumVeritas ( Member #74087) posted at 7:53 AM on Sunday, September 6th, 2020


About breaking it to the kids. Don't lie. At their ages, I would suggest something like.

"Kids, your mom and I are married. In a marriage, you don't have other boyfriends or girlfriends. I found out your mom has a boyfriend and it hurt me very much. For the time being we are staying apart to give us time to figure out what to do going forward."

Some version of the above would suffice, but there is no way to really shelter your kids from the fallout of her actions, as much as you would like to.

This is going to impact on their lives one way or another. This is not your fault and rests squarely on the horrible choices made by your WW.

Life has hardships, use this as an opportunity to teach your kids about actions and consequences in order for them not to make the same horrific choices as your WW in their lives.


It seems that the tinder app might have been used to coerce her AP into more coitus. She seems to be the aggressor in this affair.

Needless to say, that bodes less well for R.

[This message edited by DictumVeritas at 1:56 AM, September 6th (Sunday)]

Your life is but a flicker to the cosmos and only the brightest flickers are recorded by history for good or bad. Most of us just want to live our lives without being interfered with.

posts: 225   ·   registered: Mar. 22nd, 2020   ·   location: South-Africa
id 8584083

btdi ( New Member #75203) posted at 10:09 AM on Sunday, September 6th, 2020

By now you must have realised that most cheaters are following the same script. The same "decision diamond" and they actively seek the worst possible decision at every fork.


When my WS wanted response was " Send me a list. I will have it packed. YOU HAVE IT COLLECTED".

The TT started with the Tinder. Have you gone thru the financials/bank statements etc. My first priority was to secure the assets. The past is dead and gone. You need to protect the future.

One month into separation

Me: what did you do with the check ? Don't see it around ! (Check was equivalent to 5-6 mths of WS salary. )

WS: deposited in the bank account. (We had decided not to accept it)

Me: which bank account ? I will look up the statements.

WS: (under pressure): various bank accounts

ME: did you tear up the check and deposit it ? Anyways I can still look up all the accounts for the part credit. CALL ME UP WHEN YOU HAVE THE DETAILS. Till then don't bother to talk to me.

After a couple of days, WS confessed that the check has been deposited into a new account and diverted to the AP. And WS had availed a loan of twice the amount and passed it onto AP. When the new account was opened, the confirmation call from the bank was answered by me. I refused to confirm and mentioned to WS. I said I would go visit the branch to figure out if anyone was messing around with my credit. WS response was No clue on the account but you should spend time on kids rather than this!

A lot of inconsistencies are going to pop out. Your kids may have a clue depending on the level of interaction with the AP.

WS would take the kid out for a walk and was trying to familiarise kids with the AP. The kid cribbed to my parents "I don't like the way ws talks to ap" which was the first red flag. After the D kid told us that WS wanted the kid to call AP daddy.

My approach (kid was 5-6 years)

Minimise the amount of interaction WS has with the kids. Refer to AP as mom's friend bad man. Mom is bad man's friend so as to introduce the idea by association at that age. The longer the kids stay without the ws, better for you. My WS tried to use the kid as a pawn to stop the D.

Do not accept WS meek approach at face value. Chances are if you decide to D, you will see a different WS so in this "calm" in the hurricane eye, concentrate on kids + financial security.

[This message edited by btdi at 4:16 AM, September 6th (Sunday)]

It burns
in me too
healing me
but the ache is not for you.
It's for my passion.
That used to be your name.
And it's sad, really.
The sting of
too little
too late.

posts: 32   ·   registered: Aug. 17th, 2020
id 8584097

baller20 ( Member #75093) posted at 11:01 AM on Sunday, September 6th, 2020

freefaller: But it's not worn off yet. I don't know how to describe my feeling in this moment. I'm calm, but almost separate from myself, like I'm just watching stuff happen through my eyes, and just doing things automatically.

I recognize this and I think it's normal. Probably some kind of stress reaction, and this is the way you handle danger and emotional shock (when you confirmed the betrayal). You stay calm and do what you can to control things. Once you are back to safety, your brain will start processing what happened, and the pain. Some things you wrote indicate premorbid personality vulnerable to melancholia. Be careful and take care of yourself.

"Dance me through the panic till I'm gathered safely in"

posts: 56   ·   registered: Aug. 4th, 2020
id 8584104

Stevesn ( Member #58312) posted at 12:12 PM on Sunday, September 6th, 2020

In the timeline ask her to include not only the details of what she and the AP did and said, but what she was thinking and feeling at the time as well.

As for the AP and C, there is no way they did not respond to her NC messages. Ask her point blank to see their responses. Ask her if they are now blocked from calling or texting her and on all social media (blocked not just unfriended). Next time you are with her Ask her to hand you her phone right then and there to prove it.

fBBF. Just before proposing, broke it off after her 2nd confirmed PA in 2 yrs. 9 mo later I met the wonderful woman I have spent the next 30 years with.

posts: 3163   ·   registered: Apr. 17th, 2017
id 8584112

Robert22205https ( Member #65547) posted at 1:47 PM on Sunday, September 6th, 2020

Ask if she'd be willing to take a polygraph test on any topic (including Tinder, contact with C).

It doesn't matter if you trust polygraph results. It's important that she believes you do.

The prospect of a polygraph saves time and encourages full disclosure.

If it's not offered in your country, suggest you travel to where it is offered (bluff if you have to).

posts: 2409   ·   registered: Jul. 22nd, 2018   ·   location: DC
id 8584122

Robert22205https ( Member #65547) posted at 2:47 PM on Sunday, September 6th, 2020

Can you determine when she opened the Tinder account (and began shopping for whatever validation/affirmation she was seeking)?

I've read where some people enjoy the Tinder experience of being 'desired' - but never meet.

It may be that this is where she got on the slippery slope headed towards an affair.

For example, she got a taste of feeling young & desired by men (thought it was harmless online fun and that she could control it).

By the time she met the OM she had been groomed by Tinder (and C) to be at high risk for an affair (act out her online fantasy experience).

IMO she felt nothing for the OM other than he was a convenient source of feeling young, attractive, or whatever 'feeling' she became addicted to.

posts: 2409   ·   registered: Jul. 22nd, 2018   ·   location: DC
id 8584129

baller20 ( Member #75093) posted at 3:42 PM on Sunday, September 6th, 2020

freefaller: When things peaked this past long weekend, I cracked. On Monday, having returned from a day with WS, C, her partner and all of the kids, I broke down. I'd felt ignored, and like I had been interrupting their fun. WS and C spoke extensively, and C and her partner did too. I tried to join in, but their responses were short, not rude, but took the momentum from the conversation.

Do you think C's partner knows about WS affair?

So well written post, and so clear description of your gaslighting experience. Thanks for sharing.

"Dance me through the panic till I'm gathered safely in"

posts: 56   ·   registered: Aug. 4th, 2020
id 8584151

Buffer ( Member #71664) posted at 11:12 PM on Sunday, September 6th, 2020

Hey brother, just wanted to add that any photos or videos she sent her AP. Are out of her control once she has pressed send. So if they are nudes or sexual in any way they are his bragging pics. He or any one can repost them without her consent. Regardless that he is ‘soo nice and wouldn’t do that’. She can’t be assured that it will not happen. He is a man with friends, of course he will show his mates what he’s banging.

One day at a time.

[This message edited by Buffer at 8:01 PM, September 6th (Sunday)]


posts: 1191   ·   registered: Sep. 24th, 2019   ·   location: Australia
id 8584255

reborn07 ( New Member #71226) posted at 11:41 PM on Sunday, September 6th, 2020

so, so sorry you’re here freefaller. i showed up late to the thread, and you’ve had such good advise i didn’t want to litter the thread with more of the same good direction you already had. the girls are a very specific one for me. mine were 10 and 7 at the time. i didn’t know what to do either. when i don’t have a good answer, honesty is all i have. your wife did this, you didn’t do this. it’s gonna hurt the kids and that’s gonna hurt you. it was one of the most heart wrenching things i’ve ever done. i didn’t tell them the truth out of spite, i told them the truth because when they asked me why, i didn’t feel comfortable covering lies and deceit with more lies and deceit. it’s the truth, and they’ll want answers. just answer their questions as gently and truthfully as possible. again, sorry you found this place, but you are doing a phenomenal job at handling such a shitty situation. like a champ. keep doing what you’re doing and you’ll come out just fine.

[This message edited by reborn07 at 6:09 PM, September 6th (Sunday)]

posts: 36   ·   registered: Aug. 11th, 2019   ·   location: georgia
id 8584261

NeverTwice ( Member #74421) posted at 1:28 AM on Monday, September 7th, 2020


Trigger warning: Violence, death and mental illness.

But it's not worn off yet. I don't know how to describe my feeling in this moment. I'm calm, but almost separate from myself, like I'm just watching stuff happen through my eyes, and just doing things automatically.

What I am about to say should be taken with a grain of salt - I am NOT a therapist and this is NOT a diagnosis.

But I speak from bitter, hard won experience her. Everything you are describing about your feeling is just screaming PTSD at me. I mean it, literally, jumps off the page at me.

My late husband was a Marine combat veteran. And the good ole USMC left him with the gift that keeps on giving. Sleepless nights, nightmares, flashbacks. I cannot count the number of times he woke us all up screaming at night. The only thing I have ever witnessed worse than that? Watching him die from metastatic cancer.

That feeling of detachment? Almost like observing yourself and your actions from a perch on your shoulder? Yup. He lost his best friend to an ambush. Mike bled out in his lap. And he said the next 6 months of his deployment was just like that.

That was not him killing those other soldiers. He was just watching. It was not him pulling bodies out of the barracks. He was just watching. Not killing boys of 15 or 16 being sent out as cannon fodder. He was just watching.

And it would have destroyed him had he not sought help and gotten help. And here is the awful icing on the cake - getting that help cost him his career. Welcome to the US military.

Now - something almost as awful has happened to you. You have been betrayed in the worst way possible - by the one person you thought would love and defend you to the end.

If you have the time - please give this a read. Therapists are recognizing, more and more these days, the mental and physical toll infidelity has on the betrayed partner. And to make things appear even more bleak (as if that is possible)?? The person who stabbed you in the back is the one who has to help heal your wounds should you reconcile.

Here is the article - full text is free.

'Post Affair Stress Disorder' - Ortman et al.

2005 - Journal of Psychosocial Nursing and Mental Health Services.

Abstract: After Donna* discovered her husband's affair with her best friend, she threw Jim out of the house and filed for divorce. She thought such decisive action would put closure to her painful experience and end the nightmare. She was wrong. She became obsessed with the betrayal and filled with rage. Nights were the worst time for her. She had frequent nightmares of her husband and lover in bed together. She was so tense and depressed she could not function at work. Crying spells often overtook her. Everything reminded her of what Jim had done to her and the children, and she relived the horror of discovering the affair. She admitted she was traumatized and told a friend, “Something inside me died, and I can't bring it back to life.”

It is the first result if you use Google Scholar to search for the title.

AI am so sorry that you find yourself here. But you will get sage advice from the veterans here. And well done so far.

But it is time for self care too. Don't neglect your body and your diet. And the exercise helps with the sleep issues as well.

My heart goes out to you - you deserve so much better

"Solid boundaries discourage trespassing." - Shirley Glass

posts: 176   ·   registered: May. 12th, 2020   ·   location: Las Tablas, Panama
id 8584286
Topic is Sleeping.
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