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So I will ask again - is there anything that she could do or say that would make you reconsider ? And if not, why not ?

Gibraltar, very hard question that I don’t know the answer to. I don’t think there is unless she can do what faithfullman said:, inventing a time machine and go back and unfuck the OM.

Gibraltar, I’m a straight forward guy whatever is in my heart and mind is what you gonna get from me. At this time being less than a month from discovering her adultery that’s how I feel in my mind and heart. Yes some of the comments here affected my decision all of made some much sense specially a comment I think was from M1965, saying that if she is either a serial liar for lying to both me and the OM for 2 years or she really loves the OM and had me as plan B. This made me get up in the middle of the night several times thinking about it.

Gibraltar, believe me that divorcing my wife is by far the hardest shittiest most painful decision I ever considered. I loved that woman since I was an adult, I never been with any other woman in my life , I’m not sure if you realize how fucking scared I am.

You can set up your home how you want it, date who you want, experience some "firsts" again, heal your heart,

Chamomile, thanks for your support, your wisdom and knowledge I are gold thanks for being here thank you for sharing your wisdom with us.

Let me admit something, this forum opened my eyes to so many things and this is one of them. Pet of me is mad because we were each other only partners. She took that away from me I’m not her one and only I know for some that’s not a big deal but not for me it’s bothering me a lot , so while I’m inexperienced when it comes to dating women and I’m really scared of it but I now want to try and test the waters. Don’t get me wrong I’m not a saint, I have been attracted to other women and liked the way they look but never acted upon it. Always kept myself away from all temptations.

AH

Talking to her and telling her exactly how you are feeling was the right thing to do. You are a stand up guy. I respect everything about you.

she again said what she texted me yesterday That she didn't mean to shift the blame of her affair or give excuses, she said she offered me a blank sheet to write any demands and conditions because she doesn't know what it takes to make it right. I asked what made her think she was blameshifting, she said our daughter told her that I said that to her and "pastor" also told her that her choice of words and expressions were wrong

Like I said before she had no idea of how to write that apology non-apology letter. She should have gone to the Pastor before sending it. She has no idea what she is doing, her life is spinning out of control. She doesn't have SI to rip into her stupid thoughts. It usually takes much more time for a WS to get there head out of there ass.

then she said if divorce is what I want she won't fight me for anything and trusts that we would be fair to each other.

Again you are a good guy with a good heart but I hope you can save (fight for) your primary property and business, for you, your son and other families.

like I said before, this forum opened my eyes to many things and this is one of them. never thought about it till I read it here,she could have had other affairs just didn't get caught. thinking about it she was good at covering her tracks and if it wasn't for a private investigator she would have got away with it.

Are you going to ask if she has had other affairs?

I never been with any other woman in my life , I’m not sure if you realize how fucking scared I am.

This was my situation with my first wife each others firsts and only. I was so naive, never believed she would be cheating and didn't know until 30 years later it was a 5yr LTR. After finding out she was in love with POS I was so convinced I must suck in bed, so scared of women. It didn't take long before I realized plenty of women were interested. It wasn't long before the line got too long. The women were talking to each other. AH you are a catch.

You did not throw away three decades, she did.

R or D are not great options, they are the “less bad” ones.

I echo ChamomileTea sentiments... you will be fine. Infidelity happened to me a long time ago. I can tell you that you eventually heal and find happiness again... as long as you get a bit stubborn and you don’t let this define you.

Do you think you’ll eventually want to know the whole story? Was it only one affair or more? Or you’ll be ok just moving on?

Once you D, you part ways, so it doesn’t really matter....

Hi AH

You are handling things the right way. It never feels right. But being honest and straightforward and clear, as I have said before , is always the best approach.

And to be honest with you, even if someday you decide to try and R with her, I’d still advise you to follow the path you are on. You are showing the gravity of what she has done. I don’t like filing for D as a stunt, but I believe you honestly do believe that what she did ended your marriage as it was. It was a choice she made, and it is absolutely appropriate to take steps to legally end what her actions actually destroyed.

I also do want to state one thing though. And this is not to stop anything you are doing, as M1965 and others have made absolutely fair points and asked the right questions.

But I’ve said here often, that Wayward Spouses do not inherently have the skills to rebuild, repair and heal. To me it’s 99% a learned ability. No one ever thinks they will be in the position of being a cheater and have to do the right things to work to change and rebuild from what they did wrong. However it is their willingness to learn and understand and implement those things that to me measures their likelihood of someday finding forgiveness and perhaps a chance to rebuild.

Your wife is learning a harsh lesson. She thought she could control the dynamic. I’m hopeful she learns from this and becomes someone that truly does deserve another chance. It may not be as your wife, but as a person you care about I do hope she can show all of you in your and her family that she has it in herself to become a person who can be loved again by those she has hurt terribly.

While you may tell her there is no chance at reconciliation and also think to yourself there is not, along the way, if she figures out those things she truly is missing, life can take surprising turns down the road.

I’m not telling you to do anything different. Keep doing what you are doing. Take the steps you need to. But dont expect you know how this story will end. There are many possibilities and to me that’s a good thing.

Take care...

[This message edited by Stevesn at 9:44 PM, August 2nd (Sunday)]

AH.

Dude - the one and only thing is a separate horror that still kills me 4 years out. The gift that keeps on giving.

One of the guys in my HH group on AR was also a one and only. He always referred to it as the special. And always talks about how the special is gone. It’ll never be back. That’s one of those things that needs to be grieved. And grief sucks.

Stay strong brother. You sound like a real stand up guy.

JL

AH

I know you have not talked much with your wife but has she had any response to your question in your letter.

in her email she answered all the points I mentioned in my email except one subject she avoided, which is the OM had at least 3 other affairs.I was looking forward to see what she would think about that but she didn't write a word about it.

Part of me is mad because we were each other only partners. She took that away from me I’m not her one and only I know for some that’s not a big deal but not for me it’s bothering me a lot

This is a very BIG deal, may be the hardest to get through if R was in the picture. The total unfairness, something never to be fixed. My mind saw my first wife with POS together and what I saw was my inexperience to his experienced lifestyle used to please her.

This has been a topic of many threads, many couples were each others firsts and only.

Walloped is one thread

https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=566988&HL=38603

I think your wife mirrors MrsWalloped, I hope so, MrsWalloped fixed her stupid and dug deep into her whys. She posts often and is a great contributor to SI

Thumos may be another "one and only" he would need to let you know if that is true.

36yearsgone is another "one and only" his wife completely belittle his manhood to his face. Saying the AP was a "better man". The AP was a thug.

One year she "got it" and legally turned over all the marital property to him for a chance at R.

Good Night AH

Dream about fishing all night. Then set up fishing with your brother again soon.

Respectfully,

Organic2003

[This message edited by Organic2003 at 10:11 PM, August 2nd (Sunday)]

Yes, I'm also a one and only. You feel pretty stupid at first -- like what was all that for -- and makes you completely question your value system.

but then you realize you didn't betray your values, they did.

My WW tried to tell me I was sexually "immature" bc I couldn't understand her sex with AP was "meaningless" and bc I'd only ever been with one woman: her.

She also shouted at me "that's what adults do!" when I talked to her about how toxic and awful bringing the AP into sex in our home was.

By the way look closely at those two phrases "adults" and "immature" - My WW was projecting her own sexual immaturity as they so often are.

This is what people like me are really wanting you to look closely at filing for D, AH. We don't want to end up in painful limbo with a spouse who just isn't really trying that hard to get it.

[This message edited by Thumos at 10:46 PM, August 2nd (Sunday)]

That must have been a very hard talk. There has been so much crying and begging and promising and assuring you that it was all meaningless and swearing that she will be good if you “try me.”

What is strange is that I don’t see empathy for what you have had to go through. And have to go through every day and night. Yeah, I see the sorry talk and the talk about how she knows she fucked up and she knows you are hurt.

What I’m not seeing is any real understanding of her and your damage. It’s as if she is doing a paint by numbers show at remorse. I don’t see any clear eyed attempt at self reflection. Has she always been manipulative?

She wants you to tell her what to do. She wants you to fix everything. She’s fixed upon church as a solution? Has she never heard of professional therapy? Or is she too ashamed to start showing some initiative. Or is this some weird game she is playing so she can be the victim?

You know her best, I guess. Well perhaps not. If seems like she has taken up the role of powerless pawn. This seems so out of touch with the way she behaved for two years. So far you are not biting, and well you should not.

But really, is this the best she can do? It’s gotta be wearing on you.

...we were each other only partners. She took that away from me I’m not her one and only I know for some that’s not a big deal but not for me it’s bothering me a lot...

That's understandable. And you would think that the cheater would remember how special that is before they cheat. It's irreplaceable. But the vast majority of them think they won't get caught.

For what it's worth, I think you're making the right call. To some degree, most of us lose the "special", no matter how much sexual experience we've had. But when I walk the proverbial "mile in your shoes", I can't even look at my WS without thinking about the "first and only" factor and how she threw it away so thoughtlessly. Getting out there and making some new experiences for yourself won't replace what's been taken from you. But I think if it was me, I wouldn't be able to move on until I felt like informed choice was returned to me. It's not even about the sex, really. It's about becoming educated on ALL my options and then choosing to suit myself for a damned change.

As someone who agreed to R, I'm never going to have any "firsts" again. My WH did... at MY expense. But I'm in a place now where I can live with that. He wasn't my first or only, and I'm okay with him being my last. In order to get past my visceral disgust at him having actually touched the OWs , I had to deal with the reality of it. So when I pushed past the hurt, I had to remind myself that I'm not exactly a prim little pilgrim when it comes to sex. Walking in YOUR shoes though, you bet your ass I would be. Because in your shoes, I've saved it ALL up for just one person, and that person didn't appreciate it enough to do the same.

Anyway, keep pushing forward. At 44, a capable man of integrity is in high demand. And who knows, maybe by the time you do have "informed choice" your XWW might turn it around and be in the running. Anything can happen.

I hope she keeps her word and keeps the divorce civil and fair.

It’s better for the kids (and future grandkids).

AH.

Dude - the one and only thing is a separate horror that still kills me 4 years out. The gift that keeps on giving.

One of the guys in my HH group on AR was also a one and only. He always referred to it as the special. And always talks about how the special is gone. It’ll never be back. That’s one of those things that needs to be grieved. And grief sucks.

Stay strong brother. You sound like a real stand up guy.

JLarson, I just read your 4 ears recap story this morning, your story touched me so deep. I want to thank you very much for sharing your experience. like you I have some OCD behaviors and not easily satisfied in things related to work or household. I guess WWs need time to finally get the severity of the damage they caused , I saw that it took your wife 3 years.

you are right grief sucks and for a guy like me it sucks even more because I hate being down complaining and whining. I like to take care of things but for the first time I found myself not knowing what to do. I admit that I'm probably grieving the fact that I'm not her one and only any more more than I should, but I can't control the way how I feel.

Like I said before she had no idea of how to write that apology non-apology letter. She should have gone to the Pastor before sending it. She has no idea what she is doing, her life is spinning out of control. She doesn't have SI to rip into her stupid thoughts. It usually takes much more time for a WS to get there head out of there ass.

Organic2003, Thanks for your words you've been so supportive and encouraging. i agree with you she needs guidance, and even me as a BS was ignorant about so many things before I found SI.

Are you going to ask if she has had other affairs?

should I? at this moment I really don't feel like asking her although I'm curious to know.

I know you have not talked much with your wife but has she had any response to your question in your letter.

in her email she answered all the points I mentioned in my email except one subject she avoided, which is the OM had at least 3 other affairs.I was looking forward to see what she would think about that but she didn't write a word about it.

she never mention anything about that and i didn't bring it up either, maybe I should have, I really want to know what she really thinks about the POS multiple affairs and how he was " valuing the femininity" of all these women specially the the 21 year-old girl, I'm pretty sure he liked her femininity more.

R or D are not great options, they are the “less bad” ones.

ShutterHappy, you said it best, choosing divorce is such a bad shitty painful choice but R is like running into a concrete wall.

Do you think you’ll eventually want to know the whole story? Was it only one affair or more? Or you’ll be ok just moving on?

I'm curious to know all the details but at this moment I'm just not in the mood to ask anything so for now the answer is I'm Ok with what I know.

But I’ve said here often, that Wayward Spouses do not inherently have the skills to rebuild, repair and heal. To me it’s 99% a learned ability. No one ever thinks they will be in the position of being a cheater and have to do the right things to work to change and rebuild from what they did wrong. However it is their willingness to learn and understand and implement those things that to me measures their likelihood of someday finding forgiveness and perhaps a chance to rebuild.

Steven. you are a good friend, yes I see now that no WS automatically has the skills to rebuild just like us BS we don't have the skills to deal with the betrayal. we all need guidance. I know for sure I do.

Yes, I'm also a one and only. You feel pretty stupid at first -- like what was all that for -- and makes you completely question your value system.

but then you realize you didn't betray your values, they did.

Thumos, it seems like all of our stories are similar in many ways, and you are one of the guys here that helped make my decision easier.

That must have been a very hard talk. There has been so much crying and begging and promising and assuring you that it was all meaningless and swearing that she will be good if you “try me.”

Lonsadstory1952, just like you were there with us watching us, That's exactly how i would summarize it.

I hope she keeps her word and keeps the divorce civil and fair.

ramius, I hope that too, but I'm at a point where I really do not care anymore. for me it is more about loosing the memories, the life I had than any dollar. knowing what to expect legally help me a lot and I'm fortunate that my situation is not as bad as some of the BS stories I've seen. One of my close friends (who is here with us in SI and wants to remain anonymous) went trough this before after his ex-wife hooked up with an her high school crush. his divorce is still costing him lot of money with child support and alimony. for me, it would be a peace of cake comparing to his situation. i just do not want to drag it for 2 or 3 years,

Are you going to ask if she has had other affairs?

should I? at this moment I really don't feel like asking her although I'm curious to know.

Now would be the best time as she would be willing to do anything if she thinks it helps anyway to save her marriage

You will more than likely have second thoughts at different times and question if your doing the right thing or even at a much later date if you want to try dating her again

How can you if you don't know everything ?

If you don't do it now when she's at her weakest and most cornered you will never get another more opportune time

Timeline with polygraph to ascertain validity so a possible future decision can be based on knowledge

I'm very OCD and I'd need that in any case

[This message edited by UnderCover at 7:43 AM, August 3rd (Monday)]

The actual plan now, is , since she said she would do anything for a chance, I'm going to ask her to negotiate and agree on separation agreement should we divorce, in exchange of me promising to not file now and give her a chance till the end of September to proof to me she is worth a second chance. If she refuses or comes up with crazy demands I'm just gonna file based on Adultery and see what she would do.

When are you going to talk to her about the plan?

I know this may be difficult to believe, but you are doing well.

Continue to hang in there and be strong. Keep you eye on the prize, which is escaping from this hell that she put you in, with a little additional pain as possible.

Also, have you talked to POSOM’s wife lately?

Stay strong!!

should I? at this moment I really don't feel like asking her although I'm curious to know.

If she's ever going to be willing to answer all those questions, the best time to ask is NOW while she's in "guilty mode" and "letting Jesus take the steering wheel of her life", again that may not last long, and just like Now is the best time for the separation of assets, it's also the best time to ask her all of those questions, you said you're curious, this was part of your life and completely understandable that you want to know about it, you may even tell her that should you ever consider dating her again after the D is finalized that you need the truth now, after her huge betrayal she owes you that much and more.

Admitting to more betrayals would probably increase her guilt, the more guilty she feels the better for that separation of assets agreement.

I'm curious to know all the details but at this moment I'm just not in the mood to ask anything so for now the answer is I'm Ok with what I know.

I was only asking because it may be easier to get the information now rather than 2 years down the road, when D is complete.

Steven. you are a good friend, yes I see now that no WS automatically has the skills to rebuild just like us BS we don't have the skills to deal with the betrayal. we all need guidance. I know for sure I do.

Some posters are “freshly out” of infidelity and are still very angry.

The WW does nothing: it’s very bad.

The WW stumbles and tries to figure out what to do? It’s very bad, she doesn’t do it right.

The WW does everything perfectly? It’s very bad because she must have read it somewhere, it’s not genuine.

Why not point out the good and the bad?

The way I see it, it must be similar to when you sell a heating system: explain, the good parts, the bad parts of various systems and let the customer decide.

In the analysis of your WW letter, I and another poster pointed out the good and the bad and let you decide.

There’s a few common patterns for cheaters. If you read, say the “hostile” thread, the WW is the un remorseful WW who will gladly express how good the sex with the OM is, at the dinner table, in front of the kids. . You don’t have one of those (complete lack of empathy).

Your WW is either the type of cheater that let herself fall for a player (and now waking up to reality), or the type that is constantly seeking validation with everything that moves (the “serial” cheater). But she does try to fix her mess, even if she’s not really good at it. Whether she’s genuine or not, I do not know.

Having said that, I think that choosing D is a great “less bad” choice. I have never read any posters who regretted going the D route. I read plenty of posters regretting the R choice.

If I had cheated on my husband, and he sat me down,and calmly told me he was divorcing me,that the affair is something he couldn't get past, and he wouldn't trust me again, there is zero chance I would admit to other affairs. I mean, come on. One affair has led to divorce. Relieving my burden of guilt wouldn't be worth it. He might make the divorce harder, or tell my family, friends, and kids.

And I guarantee she doesn't believe you,that the OM had other affairs. I mean, after all, she broke it off with him, and he is still attempting contact. She's special. Either you are lying, or his wife is, but she knows him better than either of you. What they had was real,it was special. That's why there has been no response to all of that. Because she doesn't believe it.

[This message edited by HellFire at 8:52 AM, August 3rd (Monday)]

I’m all about reality.

Divorce or reconcile - both good (or at least the best worst solutions).

But this:

I’m going to ask her to negotiate and agree on separation agreement should we divorce,

If you decide to divorce in September and she gets a competent attorney, then that agreement won’t hold any more water than a fishing-net. They would argue that the contract was made under duress and demand a change in settlement.

People decide to divorce as friends all the time. Probably in 90% of all divorces. Yet probably less than 10% end as divorced friends. An “amicable divorce” is a lot like when the surgeons wear pink, blue and yellow gowns instead of hospital-greens before amputating your foot. It’s “nicer” but still not nice.

I am NOT telling you not to divorce. Get out of infidelity! Be it divorce or reconcile. Just be aware that BOTH require immense work, and BOTH are hard. Both offer their challenges, and both have their rewards.

A more realistic option might be to decide in your mind a date – say 1. October – and sit down by yourself and evaluate if you are making any progress. Both personally and in the relationship. Maybe even list down the most important factors troubling you now and then rathe then at that date on progress. At that point you can decide if D or R is your way out.

Then create a plan – both for you and your marriage – on what you plan on doing until October to reach your goals. Create some milestones both for you and your wife: By your date you want to see a-b-c happen, you want to have d-e-f in place… An MC might come into play here, but IMHO it’s probably still to early for that.

IMHO the worst outcome for you now would be the one many – even some offering you advice here – seem to have settled for. The outcome where you simply let time dull the pain without really finding solutions. The outcome where you claim that you will eventually divorce her and that everyone else should divorce their WW’s. Yet they still remain in their marriage, usually using their kids as their beard.

If you decide to wait with divorce, then at least have a purpose other than letting time help you numb the pain. Reconciliation is as good a purpose as any and has the side-benefit of allowing you to see if the marriage can be made the best in the world. That sort of marriage doesn’t “happen” – it becomes due to work. If nothing else, then if you try and see you aren’t making progress then you will be more content with a decision to divorce.

BTW – Reconciliation is a life-long process. At some point you reach a stage where the infidelity has less relevance, but even in an infidelity-free marriage a decision to R is a lot like deciding to be in good physical form. You can’t stop jogging once you reach your ideal weight and form but have to constantly work at maintaining it. Reconciling the marriage is a comparable task. It’s a heavy decision whether you are willing to do that work with the woman that caused you this pain.

I agree with other posters that if you want to know anything, from whether she has had other affairs, to what all she did with the other man, from how often and where she met up with him, what she said, what she did with him sexually and otherwise, what type of picture and videos did she share with him, etc. - now is the time.

Ask for the timeline, ask for immediate access everything she has electronically, her email, devices, etc. Tell her she has to give you her devices and access to you at that very moment you ask, or else she will delete the shit out of everything.

She might have deleted stuff already, but you may be able to find scraps or know if she did so, sadly a lot of us are pretty good at knowing how and where to find hidden cheater information. Also, cheaters who still have feelings for their co-cheater often can't delete everything because of sentimental reasons.

Interrogate her with any questions you have and don't tolerate any bullshit.

No pastors, no therapists involved, just her answering to you as a spouse should.

The reason I think this is important is it may help you deal with any mind-movies and that sort of long-term distress if you know what you are dealing with in terms of her betrayal.

Tell her that her answers will be subject to polygraph, checked against additional information from the other man's wife that she does not know about, and information you have found yourself that she does not know about.

***

Also, your resolve may be like steel at this moment, but you may have moments of later where you may want to give her chance, maybe you want to date her after the divorce etc. I could not deal with her as someone I need/want to trust without knowing as much of the truth as possible.

That's probably the best you can do.

***

How would I get her to agree?

I would dangle the carrot of *possible* reconciliation or halting the divorce - even if that is a lie.

It is a shitty thing to do, I don't feel she deserves your total honesty, you need to take care of yourself and the turmoil you will feel in the future.

***

The problem here is that it may weaken your resolve to even have that discussion with her.

But I am a firm believer in knowing what you are dealing with.

***

Or, if you are capable of it, just walk away from her and don't look back. That would probably be best, but most of us are not a character from a Clint Eastwood move.

Good luck.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 9:34 AM, August 3rd (Monday)]

My wife, is sending texts every morning and evening and every time she leaves the house, I really believe she is getting guidance from a site like this because she uses some words that I only read here. last night's message she talked about blame-shifting, she said that her email wan not meant to blame shift, and that her affair is her fault alone,

Makes me wonder if she doesn't have something installed on your computer or phone that sees what sites you go to and what you might type.