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It's been seven weeks since I stepped out on my wife, and had a ONS with another grad student. Three and a half weeks since I told her. A few days later, she confessed to a two year affair. Our daughter is one. I sent my wife to a mutual friend's place, where she has been since.

I feel ashamed of my affair, I feel ashamed that my wife had a two year affair, I feel ashamed that I doubted my daughters parentage enough to get a paternity test. I'm ashamed that I don't know what I want, while my wife says she wants to stay together. I'm ashamed that while she respects the boundaries I've been setting, I can't respect them. I'm ashamed that I broke my hand and didn't tell her. I feel ashamed that I yelled at her and called her horrible names when she found out and asked me if I was okay. In front of our daughter, and my parents no less.

I'm ashamed that when I invited her to come back to the apartment to see if I could even look at her without anger, that I initiated sex. I'm ashamed that I let her sleep in my arms, on our couch that night. I ashamed that it took her finding out I broke my hand, two weeks after the fact, for to even talk directly to her. I'm ashamed that the first time I saw her three weeks devolved into sex so rapidly. I feel shame that after asking her to not contact me over the weekend, including father's day, to let me process, that I called her and asked her to dinner at my parent's house. I'm ashamed that I hurt my wife, and also ashamed that I feel shame and guilt for that. I'm ashamed that we may have to do in-house separation, because I don't want the mother of my child going back the college diet so that we can swing two apartments.

When you fail the goals you set, repeatedly, do you ever like anything other than a failure? After my ONS, I'm not going to come out of this smelling like anything other than shit. Can I just escape a chunk of time without feeling like shit and being ashamed?

Get into IC immediately. Follow through on the paternity test if you have not already. You need to make an informed decision about it and decide if you want to challenge your legal status as dad if she's not yours before that window closes.

Check out the 180 in the healing library and follow it. It will get you some emotional space from your WW so that you can stop doing things impulsively that you regret. One day at a time. It will get better and it will get easier.

Why such shame? You believe in forgiveness don’t you ?

Get into IC immediately. Follow through on the paternity test if you have not already. You need to make an informed decision about it and decide if you want to challenge your legal status as dad if she's not yours before that window closes.

Check out the 180 in the healing library and follow it. It will get you some emotional space from your WW so that you can stop doing things impulsively that you regret. One day at a time. It will get better and it will get easier.

Already done on both counts. She is mine, but I still feel like shit that I doubted it.

I've been trying to do the 180 for weeks, I just apparently don't respect myself enough to do it. When my started writing letters, I couldn't stop myself from replying. It's just... Infuriating. My cheated on me for two years, sometimes in our own bed, introduced me to the guy, even tossed anal and oral like it was candy to 'em. Somehow, she still manages to have more respect for me than I do for myself, and I don't know if this new. Have also felt this shitty about myself? Or is just because my wife made feel inferior, in every way, to a terminally ill sack of shit?

Why such shame? You believe in forgiveness don’t you ?

Probably has something to with the fact that I don't regret my affair happening. I am horrified that I did it, and how much it hurt my wife. But it jolted her back to reality to at least give me a choice to see if I wanted to stay a woman who stepped out on me for 2/3 of our marriage. That's the fucked up part. My ONS was a good thing. Cheating should never be a good thing, unless you have cuck kink.

Forgiveness is a long way off, for either of us. We're both guilty parties, we shot each other, metaphorically. The only difference is that I shot her in shoulder while she shot me in the chest and collapsed a lung.

Just a thought, there's a thread on the "I can relate" forum for mad hatters- people who in their marriage have both cheated. Maybe if you read in there, you can find things to relate to?

One thing about shame that I'm trying to move forward from- shame is about me me ME and how I feel, not about how my spouse feels. It's basically a self-flagellation technique that allows me to stay self-centered and still feel like I'm doing "something" to show my remorse.

I realize this now, but having the strength to move forward out of this shame and into remorse behavior is the hard part.

Take it one step at a time, one day at a time.

Perhaps your wife is being so forgiving as she understands (as a WS herself) how she would like to be treated as she literally is in your shoes?

Great post, Migander.

Very true.

The other thing about shame is is compounds. We carry forward shame through our life if we don’t recognize it and heal it.

I have more thoughts I will share later, in a time crunch for now.

One thing about shame that I'm trying to move forward from- shame is about me me ME and how I feel, not about how my spouse feels. It's basically a self-flagellation technique that allows me to stay self-centered and still feel like I'm doing "something" to show my remorse.

I realize this now, but having the strength to move forward out of this shame and into remorse behavior is the hard part.

Take it one step at a time, one day at a time.

Perhaps your wife is being so forgiving as she understands (as a WS herself) how she would like to be treated as she literally is in your shoes?

Maybe. Let me just rephrase something.

I am bothered, angry even, that my wife seems to have respect for me to adhere to the boundaries I set with her. Boundaries that I can't even adhere to, like not fucking my wife until I know what I want. Or maintaining NC about everything except our daughter. That lasted about... Thirty hours, before I was calling and inviting her to father's day dinner at my parents'.

Somehow, by just doing as I ask of her, and doing what she can to prove to me that she wants to stay with me,

she manages to make me feel inferior. How is that fair? I can't blame her for it, because she is just doing what I ask of her. Is my only path to healing just to abdicate all responsibility for my own healing and trust her to do it? Because that is what it feels like. And right now, I don't want to rely on her. For anything. I fucking hate myself right now. When we were intimate on Friday night, she asked me multiple times, "Are you sure you want to do this?" She gave outs and I didn't take them. Any of them.

Hmmm. The complicated part of this is these are questions basically needing a betrayed spouse perspective. They put this in the wayward ((cheating party) forum because you also cheated.

The good news is there is no stop sign so some betrayed will likely respond to you. I know I have seen lots of posts like this one and this is a common way to feel.

I am a wayward but I will give this some sort of shot.

I understand there is a difference between a long term affair and a one night stand- but maybe back up the cart a bit. I am projecting a little because my husband didn’t cheat first or cheat back. But, in that I have taken time to understand my behavior, , I might understand it more than someone who has always been faithful. I have humility about my past behavior and would have to sit down and digest that a bit. I know it would still cause me great pain and I am not saying you should not have any or that it’s not overwhelming. But try and sort through what allowed you to cheat. What it was that was worth trading your integrity over. How much your wife factored into that decision.

Also what you are describing with the sex is so very common. It’s called hysterical bonding. Read up on it. It’s instinctual behavior.

You should not trust her for all your healing. You should both go to IC, both figure out your whys and how’s, and use those as a list of things to work on. You both have growth and healing to do before two whole people can repair a relationship (if that’s even what either of you decide to do). You sound young, there are lots of options to consider, and you don’t have to choose while you are in shock.

Cognitive dissonance is at play here on so many levels.You love your wife but it goes against what you believe about marriage and infidelity. So common, nothing to be feeling shameful of. You cheated, so there was some justification that also was the opposite of what you truly believe about marriage. As the wayward, I understand shame from that much better.

Slow down. Think about your actions and see if you can’t build on that experience as you go in to dissect her actions. I do not think either act of cheating absolves either person from consequences, of needing to rebuild and earn back trust. You both have rights to feel betrayed, and you both have a lot of work to do on yourselves, and eventually your marriage.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:35 PM, June 23rd (Tuesday)]

Adding my 2 cents as a "new" WS, it is all very confusing, and being stuck in in this painful limbo makes everything worse.

Take a breathe, and take the time to read articles which gives you insight into your life.

It will be easy to gloss over them all, in your frustration or impatience. Re-read, write, cry, but accept that this will be your state for a while.

So talk honestly to each other.

My BH says the biggest pain was not the actual A, but how I handled myself after (TT/ lies/ withdrawals etc). I had pushed everything too far post D-day.

So please be calm, and talk to each other honestly and be vulnerable. I suppose being mad hatters would also mean both of you are feeling similar things?

Is your wife still in an affair?

Also, she carried on a physical affair while going through an entire pregnancy? All that bonding time spent with you, going to dr appts, the sonogram, rubbing lotion on her belly, feeling the baby kick, dealing with cravings, the worry and excitement was done while she was fucking another man? Did she have unprotected sex during her A? If so, she had no issues exposing her (and your) child to STDs? Then she found the time to cheat while dealing with a newborn?

And you feel shame for a ONS that you confessed about Jesus dude, the two transgressions don’t even fucking compare on any level. I don’t know who I find more disgusting, your wife or her AP. Do you feel shame because you’re with her or because of what you did?

BW here. The comparison of EA/PA, ONS v LTA, limerance vs "just" sex, etc is always super hard. Personally (and not for one second to diminish or minimize the pain of any BS or MH) I find there to be a vast difference between a ONS and an LTA.

One thought that has remained consistent is that a BS to a LTA can't somehow understand/rationalize things like "that was the month -or even year - that my WS was off the rails" (and I sometimes wonder if that line of thinking would be healthy for a BS anyhow). Instead, I see the behavior as serious and significant lack of character and integrity. In another thread a BS posted that it's about looking at it as a weak or broken moment (or short period - like a ONS) vs who the WS is as a person and how they value the BS and the M. Given the very long length of my WH's LTA, coupled with the fact that he had to have a little extra cake on top of the LTA cake, the lens through which I view all of this is that he is profoundly broken as a person - at least when it comes to honesty and self awareness and - obviously - monogamy.

Is my only path to healing just to abdicate all responsibility for my own healing and trust her to do it

IMO, absolutely not. First, someone has already responded about hysterical bonding (called HB here on SI). It's normal, so try and stop beating yourself up about it. Second, I really do suggest you read up on relational betrayal trauma. It's a little tricky in that you are a MH, but I do think the LTA v ONS means there is additional work to be done on your WW's side of the street. I am a broken record on SI about the Marnie Breecker interviews on Duane Osterlind's "The Addicted Mind" podcast, but I think it's super helpful for a BS (or a MH) who is suffering from shame and feeling s/he lack self respect in the wake of dday. Breecker & Osterlind then created the "Helping Couples Heal" podcast, which I would also check out. In a nutshell, even tho you also had an A, you are still a BS (as is your WW) and from your posts, are likely having a common trauma response. Just knowing this helped me a lot bc I was beating myself up a LOT after dday (and I never cheated).

Each of us has our own path. Each of us arrives at the dday table with our own emotional baggage and personal histories that impact how we react to our WS's. I'm no therapist, but gotta say a part of me wonders if your comments about your WW appearing to have a better handle on this stems from the very things that allowed her to engage in her LTA.... starting with the ability to compartmentalize. You do not appear to have the capacity for large scale compartmentalization, given that you confessed to the ONS w/in a month of it happening. I'm assuming (and maybe incorrectly) that you were haunted by guilt. Yet, your WS had a PA for two years and did not confess until there was a sort of sick balance between you (ie that you cheated). This is the kind of stuff that causes me to think that dealing with a LTA is a special kind of hell and adds a lot of layers to the healing and recovery for both the BS and WS.

Now, of course you still need to dive into what prompted you to cheat. That doesn't go away. And your WW, despite her LTA, is a BS too.

Like you, I sucked at the 180. Others are able to emotionally detach w/o the full 180. I say do the best you can on this front. My tact - which some may see as silly - was I decided to stay in the M in order to try and focus on myself and my healing w/o also having to deal with all the pragmatic issues associated with D. However, I did make it very clear to my WH that once I felt able to walk again, I would file for D if he hadn't made some serious changes. At about 18 months, I had to ask my WH to move out in order to get detached enough to start to really focus on myself (he moved back in Jan bc I was supposed to be working out of town, then Covid hit).

You may -or may not -have some codependent tendencies. It can be re-traumatizing for a BS to be labeled CoD after dday, as their trauma reactions may be appear CoD due to the dday and not due to something w/in the BS before dday. Either way, reading about CoD may be helpful to a BS who is struggling with emotional detachment or the 180. I preferred "The New Codependence" to "Codependent No More", but would say either book is a relatively quick read and may be helpful (like a LOT of BSs, the A-related PTSD seriously impacted my ability to focus when reading, so I do what I can via audiobook).

Anyhow, this is getting long. I guess I'd say to try as you can to give yourself some compassion (Rick Hanson's "Resilience" is a great book on this front). As to the shame, I would highly recommend reading all you can from Brene Brown. She's got stuff on youtube too. I came across an audio of a multi part lecture of hers called "The Power of Vulnerability" and found it to be a great synthesis of her first 2-3 books. Brown is a shame researcher and I think anyone touched by infidelity would benefit from her work. Many here on SI are fan of Pema Chodron, has some great stuff about learning to live in uncertainty and meditation/mindfulness. I appreciate her, but have had some difficulty getting through her books - not sure if it's her style, the topic, or my focus struggles.

Have you/WW read "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair" ? I think the conventional wisdom on SI is that is a must-read first step. I'm told you can find a PDF of it online for free. It's a short read, and many are encouraged to re-read.

As for SI, I believe that a WS/MH can post in General. So, you may want to raise questions related to your status as a BS in the General forum (or reconciliation), and those related to your status as a WS here in Wayward.

I'm sorry you are here. Godspeed.

[This message edited by gmc94 at 4:09 PM, June 24th, 2020 (Wednesday)]

My BH says the biggest pain was not the actual A, but how I handled myself after (TT/ lies/ withdrawals etc). I had pushed everything too far post D-day.

So please be calm, and talk to each other honestly and be vulnerable. I suppose being mad hatters would also mean both of you are feeling similar things?

So, far no body has lied. At least, I haven't lied, and I haven't caught her in a lie.

My wife hasn't wanted to talk about my affair since she told of hers. Saying "One thing at a time." and "I already know that I want you.".

Is your wife still in an affair?

No, she ended it the day I confessed, and blocked her AP. When she came clean about hers, and I kicked her out, she gave her phone to our mutual friend, whose place she is staying at. The only time she has her phone is when she at work, and I am now checking our mobile account and her emails every other day. I may not know what I want, yet, but I will take the slightest misstep as a sign to divorce. In that case, she can take an apartment and I will sleep on the floor at my parents, or my brother's.

Also, she carried on a physical affair while going through an entire pregnancy? All that bonding time spent with you, going to dr appts, the sonogram, rubbing lotion on her belly, feeling the baby kick, dealing with cravings, the worry and excitement was done while she was fucking another man? Did she have unprotected sex during her A? If so, she had no issues exposing her (and your) child to STDs? Then she found the time to cheat while dealing with a newborn?

Yes. Yes. Other than oral? No. According to her, the affair did slow down after our daughter was born. Because, you know newborns. Fuck that morning is so foggy. I think that she said that while she was pregnant, she saw and had sex with her AP about once a week. Assuming that she didn't forget or twist any facts, she has seen her AP a grand total of about five time since our daughter was born. Combination of newborn and COVID-19.

Still though, finding time wouldn't have been difficult. My wife continued to go to work, until the day before she was due.

Her office allowed her telecommute, and she resumed working after three weeks. After a few months, she resumed limited fieldwork, no more than five hours (including driving time). Then COVID-19 hit and her companies field operation shut down. That field work was when she found the time.

To her credit, after she confessed, she pulled got her boss to reassign all of her field responsibilities.

And you feel shame for a ONS that you confessed about Jesus dude, the two transgressions don’t even fucking compare on any level. I don’t know who I find more disgusting, your wife or her AP. Do you feel shame because you’re with her or because of what you did?

I feel ashamed of both. I especially feel ashamed because she is able to respect the boundaries I set, while I can't even adhere to them. I am also ashamed because I had to ask my wife to rebuff any future attempts I make at intimacy until we have settled on reconciling or divorce. I don't want to, but I keeping initiating when I see her. First Friday, then I nearly chased her into the bathroom at my parent's house on Father's Day, before my brother cornered and proceeded to have an one sided conversation that ended in "an agreement" involving divorce. Not really sure what he was saying because I was busy trying to hide an erection and staring at the closed bathroom.

I'm afraid that by indulging the hysterical bonding, I'll just end up biasing myself into making a decision that I'll regret.

Hey there, fellow MH posting. I’m sorry you’re here. There’s a lot in your post, a metric fuckton. There’s a lot going on in the world right now, too. AND newly parenting. AND normal life stress. Are you in IC? I strongly encourage you to seek IC. I feel like IC was a godsend to me after our discovery, when it felt like nothing would ever help. IC did help. At the end of my first vomit counseling session, my IC said, you don’t really know who you are right now, do you? And she was right. I needed to put myself back together, and then maybe my marriage. I had known my husband for half of my life, since we were kids. I was pregnant. We were newlyweds. Who the hell were we? Who was I?? Reading did help. Meditating did help. It all took a long time and it’s still taking time. I won’t pretend that it’s easy or linear. I have started on a path and we’re all always on a path, regardless.

These are the things that have been specifically helpful to me in my recovery:

- IC and lots of reading

- 12 step recovery work to develop personal accountability and lock it down

- Keeping my eyes on my own paper (super freaking hard and we still get mini spirals of fingerpointing when we’re scraping the absolute bottom of the barrel emotionally, which we’re each learning how to avoid)

- Being gentle with my individual pain, being gentle with my husband’s pain, cultivating compassion and empathy. This is the most difficult task for me and in turn my husband. Triggers suck.

- No comparisons (scorekeeping). I don’t believe scorekeeping helps the hurt places inside of us that are reaching for light. Instead, I feel recovery is about a few key steps which are: getting out of crisis by identifying and processing the trauma/pain, identifying what one wants, asking for those things, and holding newly drawn or reinforced boundaries. IC helps me with those goals immeasurably.

Right now, I think you’re at the very first step which is the dumpster fire step. That step freaking sucks and I’m sorry you’re here. Recover. Rest. Get support through IC. Read. Try to exercise and eat healthy food. Try to do things that you love and that nurture the tender spots in your heart. Try to spend quality time with your daughter. Focus on immediate tasks like that, mindfulness. It’s extra tough right now with COVID, I know. My husband and I separated for around three months after discovery, which is maybe a very heavy handed way of saying that I think some rudimentary boundaries may be beneficial for you and your wife. We tried to just text, or just call, or only talk for a certain amount of time, or meet in neutral places. We went on lots of drives. Things are tougher with a newborn, so please get some help. I would say for now, get in IC, figure out healthy coping mechanisms, and figure out how to be kind to yourself. If you and your wife are serious about reconciliation, you can take time. Even if you’re not, I feel individual recovery comes first. We gave our separation six months and only used half of that time. I don’t think separating is a panacea. I mention it as a means of giving yourself breathing room and time to gain some kind of footing. You both are hurting and you both appear to struggle with self love and its extension, trust. Me too, and my husband.

My MH experience has been grappling with the supposed confirmation of my worst abandonment fears (aka the root of my whys) that were magnified after the trauma of discovery. I’m now learning how to examine those fears, soothe them, and put them down gently while forgiving my husband. This is not for everyone and I’m not suggesting it’s the right path for you. Just transparency so you know where I’m coming from. For me, figuring out my shit has left me with zero stones to throw at my husband. That’s not a shame statement. My husband’s choices were not my fault. My choices weren’t his fault. We both had work to do. We are both imperfect. A wise MH poster on here said that MH recovery is most successful when we come at it from a wayward perspective. That’s been my experience. That’s not to say that you don’t process the pain you’re feeling after your wife’s confession. It needs to be felt. A big part of my recovery has been learning how to not weaponize my feelings, but instead examine them, feel them, and admit the underlying fears. To each their own.

But first, for you: recover. Then you do your work, and your wife does hers. I think hikingout gave you some wonderful advice. Strength to you.

You haven't decided if you want to divorce, or attempt reconciliation.

Your wife appears to be,at the very least regretful. So she may be reconciliation material.

Here's the thing. You aren't even sorry you cheated. You don't regret it. So, as much as this will piss you off, YOU aren't reconciliation material. In order for a BS to attempt reconciliation with a WS, the WS has to be, at the very least, sorry they cheated. And you aren't.

I also think you need to let her come home asap. Kicking her and your baby out of the house will not reflect well on you, during a custody hearing. You can do an in house separation.

[This message edited by HellFire at 10:34 PM, June 24th (Wednesday)]

Hellfire is right. You act like you are the more wounded party. We can go into comparisons of deceit and betrayal afterwards.

We're both guilty parties, we shot each other, metaphorically. The only difference is that I shot her in shoulder while she shot me in the chest and collapsed a lung.

So you confessed a few days before you even knew about her affair. Did you consider your confession to be a shot in the shoulder then? You didn't think that would be a major chest would?

You somehow think that because her affair was more involved, your affair shouldn't hurt as much. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way in the real world.

Remorse? Are you kidding me. This guy felt like crap about a ONS and then finds out his wife had a LTA for most of their M - and the last 2 posters are giving him shit for being pissed off at her and not showing remorse?

Geez. These madhatter situations are a whole different level of messed up. I really wish a few MH's would pipe in to offer insight.

I rugswept my wife's EA that happened before my A. I still haven't really dealt with it as my PA was a lot worse than her EA.

He has a right to be pissed. Remorse, that happens later. Shame is the problem now. He feels shame for his WW's A. No that is on her.

[This message edited by MrCleanSlate at 7:50 AM, June 25th (Thursday)]

Here's the thing. You aren't even sorry you cheated. You don't regret it. So, as much as this will piss you off, YOU aren't reconciliation material. In order for a BS to attempt reconciliation with a WS, the WS has to be, at the very least, sorry they cheated. And you aren't.

I also think you need to let her come home asap. Kicking her and your baby out of the house will not reflect well on you, during a custody hearing. You can do an in house separation.

Here's the big reason I don't regret it. If I hadn't had my ONS, my wife would still be in affair. Did it seem like it was winding down from an outside perspective? Yes. As soon the pandemic died down sufficiently, could it have have sparked up? Yes. I'm glad that it didn't escalate to the point that she left me with our fourteen month daughter without notice. Or worse, take our daughter with her and left. I'm sorry that I cheated, but I don't regret. I am sorry that I put her in pain.

Our daughter didn't go with her, my wife may have our daughter right now, but that's because we have been rotating her between with the help of my parents. Nor did I kick my wife out of our apartment without her having a place to go. Since part of her affair was conducted in this apartment, I can't stay here. I'm moving into a new apartment on the first, and she'll rejoin me. We are doing an in-house separation because we can't afford two apartments.

You somehow think that because her affair was more involved, your affair shouldn't hurt as much. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way in the real world.

I know, I'm just not capable of complex thinking, or self analysis right now. The bean bag I've been sleeping on for three weeks is uncomfortable, my car is just as bad, and the only time I can sleep through the night is when I have my daughter. Otherwise I wake up every few hours, like clockwork, fucking dreams about her affair, about my ONS.

I know that my ONS has to be dealt with, but my wife wants to "focus on the affair that could end our marriage" first.

I rugswept my wife's EA that happened before my A. I still haven't really dealt with it as my PA was a lot worse than her EA.

I've been worried about this exact same scenario. I mean, how are you supposed to work on something like this out when both parties are the aggrieved, and offending parties? This isn't politics, you can't negotiate and just reduce the aggravations committed by each party.

the fact that I don't regret my affair happening

Can't have remorse if you aren't sorry it happened.

Shame is not the same as remorse.

Also, most ONS, unless they are with a stranger,have some form of build up prior. This wasn't a stranger.

Look,I didn't say his wife was an angel. What she did was disgusting. I have zero respect for any man who cheats on his pregnant wife. Same goes for a pregnant woman who cheats on her husband. The risk they put that unborn child in is high,and beyond reckless.

OP, I understand what you are saying. But you should still regret it,because you took a shit on your integrity. You cheated on yourself, and your wife. You betrayed your family. Regardless of her actions, you should regret what YOU did to yourself

[This message edited by HellFire at 9:01 AM, June 25th (Thursday)]

OP, you've been served an enormous shit sandwich. No doubt.

What are you doing to take care of yourself?