SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Tell me why. I can't think of a possible reason that doesn't trace back to a moral judgement. I am not saying they don't exist, I am genuinely saying, tell me why.

I can't. This isn't my particular issue. I've heard, throughout the thread though, lots of different reasons given though. Probably the one that would impact me the most would be the possibility of meeting/interacting with other men that my wife had these experiences with. I don't want to be privy to the "inside joke" about "how RIO's wife used to be". But there are a lot of other reasons too, including just not wanting to picture my wife in those situations at all, the research that shows the "pair bonding" problem, the comparisons that would be drawn between me and the 3 guys she had that one time back in college. Nothing at all to do with "it's wrong", I just don't want any of those thoughts in my head. In fact, "it's wrong" isn't even in my vocabulary, which perhaps is why analogy to bodybuilding/skydiving and lots of other things makes sense to me. I don't think any of those activities are "wrong", I just don't want to date people who do them.

People are free to do whatever the hell they want, obviously. I just personally am not going to put up with double standards or someone treating me like I am not their equal because we have different anatomy.

On this, we agree. But it has 0 to do with your anatomy, I wouldn't date men who did this either.

The reason I even tried to converse with you on it is you keep painting it as I will be missing out, I will be paying a price, if I decide a certain way.

It depends how you look at it. I give 0 fucks about this behavior, so you'd still get to date me, so.. Not missing out now, are ya!? :) But, paint it however you want, I know guys who the stuff we've discussed in here would be a "hard no". Now, without knowing that, if you were interested in them, disclosed this to them, and they walked away.. Call it what you like, to me, that would be "missing out" on a relationship with them. Now, SHOULD you want a relationship with them? That's a totally different question, you might actually be saving yourself a lot of heartache, but, still, you're options have been limited (as have mine, BTW, I've engaged in much of the behavior we've discussed here, and yes, I've disclosed it, and yes, I've been "Nexted" because of it. And that's all OK, I made my choices, you don't like them, so be it, I can't change them now. Might those women have "missed out"? Sure, in fact, I'm sure some wish they could go back and undo that "nexting" (as I certainly wished I could have done at d-day)). My issue is that we're acting as if my participating in orgys shouldn't matter, or if a girl who also participated in them could then NOT next me for my disclosure of it. Sure she could, it's her right to next me for any reason at all she wants to.

I am judgmental when my family refuses to recognize that my gay cousin has a partner he's so serious about that they bought a house together.

That's horrible. That would also make me judge someone very harshly. No, I wouldn't date a woman who'd done something like this in her past either, that behavior is just unacceptable to me.

What started me in on RIO is he said he would date promiscuous women but not marry them.

I do recall saying that, but not about myself personally, but that this is a rather prevalent attitude in men. Wrong? Sure, let's concede that point. Is it a "thing"? Or were the couple of guys over the years who expressed that to me the only ones who ever thought it? I think we all know the answer to that question, in fact, it's been a "thing" for all of recorded history. This isn't some new-age manosphere crapola flying at you, this is stuff that's been going as long as we have records. The most powerful men had 100 concubines and married virgins. It's a very common male preference, and yes, it's hypocritical, and yes, some of it is based in biology. You won't get me to disagree on any of that.

So what if its a moral judgement? How else do you arrive at morality if not judging certain actions/behaviors good and bad.

There is no "so what" to answer. Again, this is just me challenging RIO to give me an example that it wasn't. I personally just could not think of any case where it wouldn't be. And, I am just challenging him to think a little about whether his position on that could be sexist or gender related. I am not really picking on him, in fact I have had hundreds of pages of debates with RIO by this juncture, he just enjoys debating.

I do recall saying that, but not about myself personally, but that this is a rather prevalent attitude in men. Wrong? Sure, let's concede that point. Is it a "thing"? Or were the couple of guys over the years who expressed that to me the only ones who ever thought it? I think we all know the answer to that question, in fact, it's been a "thing" for all of recorded history. This isn't some new-age manosphere crapola flying at you, this is stuff that's been going as long as we have records. The most powerful men had 100 concubines and married virgins. It's a very common male preference, and yes, it's hypocritical, and yes, some of it is based in biology. You won't get me to disagree on any of that.

You could have saved us a lot of time here

Bottom text: "Is this thread still going on?"

I was dipping into some 90s stand up comedy sets the other night and almost as if serendipity, I came across a clip of Chris Rock talking about this very concept in his special Bring the Pain. The what I'd call "typical male perspective" that it captured 23 years ago is exactly the same as it is in here, today. Exactly the same. Of course it's a comedy bit so not to be taken that seriously, but what he says that's relevant to this discussion boils down to one statement:

"Men, never ask how many guys she's been with because no matter what that number is, it's always going to be too much *FOR YOU*."

I checked out a few pages back, but it's been very interesting watching a gender-divided debate with people rationalizing what at the end of the day are very visceral responses (to concepts, to communication methods, etc.) that can hardly be reprogrammed in us (us meaning those of us here, not necessarily "the human race")--whether it's nature or nurture (which, to me, are just two sides of the same coin since they feed into each other).

[This message edited by AbandonedGuy at 1:28 PM, December 5th (Thursday)]

There is no "so what" to answer. Again, this is just me challenging RIO to give me an example that it wasn't. I personally just could not think of any case where it wouldn't be. And, I am just challenging him to think a little about whether his position on that could be sexist or gender related. I am not really picking on him, in fact I have had hundreds of pages of debates with RIO by this juncture, he just enjoys debating.

I wasn't posting in defense of RIO. Although I mostly agree with him. I was just saying that I think a moral judgement is a perfectly fine reason. Even if he doesn't.

Murky -

Okay.

And, by now I am sure you know my position that it's fine if you feel that you are also a more conservative person. It makes sense to me that a conservative person would seek out another conservative person. I would expect someone who has those types of moral beliefs to give me a pass in a dating situation. I have had a lot of different experiences plus have committed adultery. I would feel that it's better that the person and I hashed that out and knew we were not compatible, do not share similar sensibilities. There is nothing wrong with a moral judgment especially if you are considering a committed relationship with someone. That's why I feel that I would disclose my information if they wanted to exchange that information. I like to know my partner's as well.

I only said I thought it was hypocritical if you are promiscuous, thinking that you are morally okay with casual sex, that you hold your partner responsible for carrying a separate set of morals/values. I didn't say it doesn't happen. And, I think most people have something hypocritical about them. So, I am not condemning you if you think it's fine to judge that. I can't even say I wouldn't find something too much in that category. I would probably pass on some sexual related matters, a few come to mind pretty quickly.

RIO, the problem with the "old ways" is that the incentives were powerful for women to lie about their experience.

Men wanted virgin brides. They also wanted sex on the side. Men did not relate to the fact that the sex on the side they wanted was devaluing to their sexual partners, women. Because it wasn't devaluing to men!

Somehow it does seem as though you look at the premarital sex you had as devaluing to the women. But not to yourself. Despite all of those acts requiring two people, one of which was a woman, and one was yourself.

Women sometimes lie about their sexual experience because it devalues them in the eyes of men. Men have no such problem. But as an intelligent man, I can't really look past the contradiction.

Now particular men are non promiscuous. Sometimes they marry women who were promiscuous and are now lying about it. That is a different matter.

Now particular men are non promiscuous. Sometimes they marry women who were promiscuous and are now lying about it. That is a different matter.

This is my wife and I. I am very non promiscuous, she is very promiscuous. I don't have any hangups or moral judgement regarding promiscuity, either male or female, it's just not for me. She absolutely minimized, and the full picture of her sexual history has been trickle truthed over the years and it has certainly caused some strain and tension at times.

Is your SO's sexual history any of your business?

WRT partner count, I think it is. Let's face it, std's aside, any concern about an SO's sexual history is really a concern about if their sexual history will propel them to cheat on you and ruin your life.

The logic is obvious. If your SO had great sex in the past with orgasm after orgasm, better sex than with you, they are eventually going to decide that they miss it, their needs are not being met, and even though you meet all of their other needs (financial, good parent, at least attempt to do 50% of the housework, etc.), you cannot meet this need and they will get it from someone else.

Just go and spend an hour on Reddit's SUBHUMAN sub, and you see it all over the place. "I love my SO to death, but they can't meet my needs so obviously my only choice is to cheat."

If your SO has a count of 5, then even if you aren't the best sex they've ever had, you can at least be assured that you are in the top 5. Since they married you, you can probably assume you're not #5, and being 2-4 will probably be good enough to keep them from cheating on you.

If your SO has a count of 50, then IMO, nine times out of ten, you're not even in the top 25 of sexual partners.

Why? Because when your SO has been with that many people, chances are pretty good that they have been with quite a few who are absolute masters at sex. They know and do everything and the orgasms are fast and furious. Your SO absolutely loved the sex with them, remembers how great it was, an absolute masterpiece, and yet would never have even considered marrying them.

Why? Because they are also masters at destroying lives. A real relationship with them would never work. In fact, sometimes it is the very fact that a real relationship would never work that makes the orgasms so fast and furious.

So your SO marries you instead. They promise at the alter that they're fine having 26th Best Sex of Their Life for the rest of their lives.

That's probably bullshit and that's why partner count matters. Most people would be willing to bet that they have a much better chance of not being cheated on if they are the 4th best sexual partner their SO has ever had than if they are the 26th.

I have to say Cheatstroke, this sounds very bleak. And, it makes sense, you have likely tracked down a lot of this information in light of having been cheated on.

I didn't have the kind of numbers that you are talking about, not by a long shot. I married my first boyfriend, then was divorced a few short years before I found my now husband. But, the numbers I do have ramped up a bit with some very short relationships and a few ONS in between marriages. I can tell you that for a lot of people, really great sex is cultivated by two people who are very interested in learning each other's bodies. I can say with a straight face, my H is the best partner I have ever had, and it has a lot to do with both of us really enjoy pleasing the other. I never met someone who was skilled in the way you are talking about, and I think for most women especially, we all kind of have our own combination of what works. We are less straightforward than men, and if you have mastered one woman, I really think most of the time you have only mastered one woman. Sure, there might be some skills that you can build on but this imaginary don juan, I don't believe he exists.

I know I am just one person, and I can't speak for all women, but that's the truth as I know it. I have talked to a lot of women about sex, I read a lot too, and I *think* I am in the majority.

People on the internet justifying why they cheat - their reasons for cheating aren't really any different than the reasons the waywards here cheated. They just don't know it. They haven't really done any work to figure out the problem is them and not their spouse. If they want to have great sex at home, they need to learn to communicate like an adult and express their needs and fantasies. If they are just truly incompatible with their spouse, then maybe they should do them both a favor and speak up about it. See if therapy/sexual therapy can help. And, if not give their spouse the dignity of a divorce. They are full of shit, I don't care who they are, there is always another answer.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:38 PM, December 5th (Thursday)]

I can tell you that for a lot of people, really great sex is cultivated by two people who are very interested in learning each other's bodies. I can say with a straight face, my H is the best partner I have ever had, and it has a lot to do with both of us really enjoy pleasing the other. I never met someone who was skilled in the way you are talking about, and I think for most women especially, we all kind of have our own combination of what works. We are less straightforward than men, and if you have mastered one woman, I really think most of the time you have only mastered one woman. Sure, there might be some skills that you can build on but this imaginary don juan, I don't believe he exists.

I know I am just one person, and I can't speak for all women, but that's the truth as I know it. I have talked to a lot of women about sex, I read a lot too, and I think I am in the majority.

I agree with hikingout. I've had a lot of sex with a lot of different people. The best has been with my WH because of the intimacy, the comfort, the knowledge of what each person enjoys... And after almost 10 years, we're still trying new things. The only difference is that post-A, his affair (and he had only had sex with two longterm girlfriends prior to me, I was by far the more promiscuous one) the intimacy and specialness is missing and I deal with mind movies now.

The futility of this debate stems from the fact that PEOPLE LIE. Period. Goes both ways, too. Goes for other circumstances, too. If someone has it in them to cheat, they've also got it in them to lie. I mean, you can't even have the former without the latter, right? Proselytizing ideologies which are inherently founded on someone's ability to obfuscate the truth or not is a fun intellectual exercise, but ultimately pointless.

And "the good ones" lie. Everybody lies. We can all do our best to be truthful with one another in an attempt to adhere to some moral code and soften our self image and obey the Golden Rule, but even then, if we're paying attention, we'll notice bullshit spilling out of our mouths when we want things to go our way. Some people rationalize away "white lies" as being "better" because "nobody gets hurt", but they're still lies. Some people rationalize away lies of omission because we did it to spare someone's feelings, but it's still a bunch of bullshit. It's all bullshit. If 60% of the human body is water, at least 50% of what remains has gotta be bullshit.

And I think we all fundamentally know, whether we're pro-low numbers or pro-who gives a shit about numbers, is it's always all about context. We (should) instinctively know that the number, even if it's the real number, and even if it's not a number but instead a "gang bang" or other such past action, is but a piece of the whole pie. In practice, what actually gets to us are the additional clues.

* "I've only been with 3 other people." Cool, that seems reasonable I guess, I don't have a measuring stick for this but I've got no problem with it.

* "You're the first person to give me the big O." That's interesting when it only takes 5-10 minutes to get you off, every time, but...yeah, sure.

* Maybe you were friends with them prior to dating and know of a time when they had drunk hookup sex with some college rando. You try to be fair in your head and play it off as dumb college kids doing dumb college things, but it sticks out as another clue to be cognizant of.

* Maybe you notice that they're extra touchy feely with people who aren't *you* whenever they're drunk. Certainly paints that college story in a new light and brings focus to it.

* Oh look, an inappropriate relationship with a coworker, that's not good. Why is this person texting or even calling them in the evening hours when they're working out in the next room? And why does this always happen when things aren't going well between us?

These are the actual stepping stones that lead us to make judgments on people. AND EVEN WHEN WE FOLLOW THAT THREAD, SOMETIMES WE STILL PUT UP WITH ALL OF IT! None of these things necessarily indicate a shitty partner by themselves, but they're all pieces of the puzzle. And we've got to keep in mind that people here who have been raked over the coals by our trusted loved ones may be a lot more sensitive to any one of these things, and we should all understand that completely.

duplicate

[This message edited by AbandonedGuy at 3:52 PM, December 5th (Thursday)]

I agree with hikingout. I've had a lot of sex with a lot of different people. The best has been with my WH because of the intimacy, the comfort, the knowledge of what each person enjoys..

I think the reason it might be different for some men is because the experience of sex is different for some men. All the things you said, intimacy, comfort, knowledge; undoubtedly true. But, in some ways, that's not the "formula" for great sex for me. Even to this day, some of the best sex I've ever had was ONS's, and it was generally a combination of a very attractive woman, a dangerous circumstance (public, for example), a "devil may care attitude" and a willingness to do everything together. And, speaking for myself, I project this into my wife's affair and have a difficult time not believing it was like this for her (whole different topic, don't want to go there).

Anyway, while those things do matter for great sex, they in no way ensure it. You meet a woman who's uniquely skilled in some ways, yeah, that's gonna be amazing. Incredibly attractive? Same thing. And I think that's where we wind up with a disconnect, at least me personally, because the things that lots of people (mostly women) say are the equation to great sex are just different than my own. And if sex is "skill based" and "anatomy based", well then, it's as the other poster said; difficult to believe after a certain number that I'm even in the top 10 anymore.

Maybe this is a big cause of the disconnect, IDK. But I can say I don't relate to "great sex" being a combination of intimacy, comfort and knowledge. Sure, that all helps, but there are factors, in fact, a ton of factors that are present in most affairs, that really enhance the sexual experience for me personally. New, dangerous, lots of "kinky acts"; all that stuff has a bigger bearing on "great" than the criteria that was given above, at least for me personally.

I have not read this long thread but will answer in regards to the initial post. I do think it is part of a couple's business if they ask. Lying is definitely not ok.

Some people are ok with a lot of sexual history, some aren't and some don't care.

I did not have a wild sexual past maybe 10 partners before I met STBX and one RA so yes I have cheated and would answer truthfully to any new partner that asked.

I guess it depends on each individual person.

If I were a man, I think I would probably have different parameters for good sex too (maybe).

Women are vulnerable in a way during sex that men are not.

Women are programmed in a lot of ways that can be inhibiting.

Women are more complex to get to climax.

We have hormonal changes just like the moon waxes and wanes.

We are more often going to factor in emotional connection status or other issues.

And, because we are so individual in how we climax, what we need for that, our partner really has to be tuned in to us, know us pretty well. Or we have to be very instructive (which is fine, but at some point, I need that partner to go onto autopilot so I can get lost?)

But, there are factors you mention here RIO, that I think a lot of women do enjoy...H and I like public adventures sometimes or needing to hurry up because we are late, or trying to fit it in when we know someone is supposed to be showing up soon, and I think that's always a factor in ramping up the intensity...when you add risk.

But, I do think the whole experience is just different for women. I wouldn't say skills are not needed, but your prior experience will only help you so much with a new woman for the most part. People have to have time to sync a bit and get into each other's styles. At least a lot of women do.

Tell me why. I can't think of a possible reason that doesn't trace back to a moral judgement. I am not saying they don't exist, I am genuinely saying, tell me why.

So what if its a moral judgement? How else do you arrive at morality if not judging certain actions/behaviors good and bad.

Nothing is wrong with moral judgments in general. We all need to have our morals and values system.

The problem comes when you don't actually hold the morals yourself and yet judge another in a harsher light for the same behavior.

If you yourself have played the field then your moral belief is that it is ok to play the field. If you then tell a woman that she has to be chaste to be with you then you are not simply placing a moral judgement. You are being a hypocrite.

Cheatstroke, that makes me sad to read. I don't have an insanely high number, but I have enough that I think I can answer this one honestly. I bet that's a hard thing for all of us, wondering if we were the best at whatever and so on. I think the reality is that we are probably the best at this one thing and not the best at these other 5 things. For example, I'm 46. I'm almost positive that I won't be the best-looking woman whomever I'm with next has ever been with because I'm sure he dated in his 20s. Most of us look better in our 20s. Gotta deal with that one. Thanks to experience, I might be the best at some acts, but I might not too.

Who the act was with matters more than who performed it better or looked better. The best kisser in my past was my XWH, but the idea of kissing him again repulses me, so does it matter? The best at sex was a gorgeous sociopath. He was incredibly skilled in bed. I wouldn't touch him again for anything. One of the experiences that I think back on the most was with someone inexperienced and fumbling. It was sweet and I cherish it.

I can say without hesitation that the best sex of my life and the sex I want all the time is the sex I have with the person I love when I'm in love. I don't sit and compare "damn, wish his penis was like so and so's and if only he could kiss like this other guy and damn he isn't as good at this as some other person was". I do not find that being comfortable with casual sex breaks a woman's ability to bond sexually and emotionally with a romantic partner. I am focused completely on the person I'm with when I'm in a relationship. I don't pine for men from my past. I've had some great sexual experiences and I am glad that I've had them, but the memories of them pale in comparison to being with someone I love.

Yes, I do understand the feeling of insecurity, though. I've felt it when I've seen ex's of men I've dated and thought "damn, she's hotter" or whatever. It happens. It's jealousy and ego that drives that to a large extent. That's not healthy, but totally normal. It is about 10,000 times harder when you've been the victim of infidelity. Of all the things that would have made R impossible for me, one of them was that he cheated with beautiful young women half my age. I would never ever have gotten past that in a million years. It is different with someone who hasn't cheated on us, I do hope. I guess I'll eventually find out. Most people in my age-range who have been single for a while have had a fair number of sex partners in their lives.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 4:43 PM, December 5th (Thursday)]

The logic is obvious. If your SO had great sex in the past with orgasm after orgasm, better sex than with you, they are eventually going to decide that they miss it, their needs are not being met, and even though you meet all of their other needs (financial, good parent, at least attempt to do 50% of the housework, etc.), you cannot meet this need and they will get it from someone else.

Just go and spend an hour on Reddit's SUBHUMAN sub, and you see it all over the place. "I love my SO to death, but they can't meet my needs so obviously my only choice is to cheat."

If your SO has a count of 5, then even if you aren't the best sex they've ever had, you can at least be assured that you are in the top 5. Since they married you, you can probably assume you're not #5, and being 2-4 will probably be good enough to keep them from cheating on you.

If your SO has a count of 50, then IMO, nine times out of ten, you're not even in the top 25 of sexual partners.

Why? Because when your SO has been with that many people, chances are pretty good that they have been with quite a few who are absolute masters at sex. They know and do everything and the orgasms are fast and furious. Your SO absolutely loved the sex with them, remembers how great it was, an absolute masterpiece, and yet would never have even considered marrying them.

Wow. Do you actually believe this? You make it sound like sexual ability is something you are given and you can't do anything about it. That's rather a dismal view on things.

First of all, one person's yuck is another person's yum, and I'm not even talking kinks. I'm talking about how they like to be touched (not even where!), and all the little intimate ways you learn a partner. Any time someone tells me they are a great lover, I immediately lose interest because that tells me they have some formulaic pattern of "moves" that worked for other people so now they will try those on me. I am not interested in the slightest because I think formulaic sex sucks.

Partners who take the time to actually communicate about sex, to talk about fantasies, and to learn how their partners want to be touched and where are the ones who will be the best lovers- and that doesn't even add in emotional intensity which makes an enormous difference.

I've probably had more sex partners than most of the people on this site. Sure, there have been a few truly outstanding technical partners, but both my husband and my boyfriend are top five of a very long list solely because they are trying to please ME, not drawing from some lame repertoire of what they think sex should be.

If you can't satisfy your partner sexually, it's probably not about them (barring extreme cases). It's likely that you aren't actually communicating about the sex you both want to have.

But I can say I don't relate to "great sex" being a combination of intimacy, comfort and knowledge. Sure, that all helps, but there are factors, in fact, a ton of factors that are present in most affairs, that really enhance the sexual experience for me personally. New, dangerous, lots of "kinky acts"; all that stuff has a bigger bearing on "great" than the criteria that was given above, at least for me personally.

I think it's funny that intimacy, comfort and knowledge can't also mean new, dangerous and kinky.

Are you picturing sex in a warm bed with pjs half off? Because for me, intimacy, comfort and knowledge doesn't exclude new, dangerous and/or kinky. It means that we know each other intimately enough to know what we like/don't like and are interested in trying/experimenting with, and comfortable enough to do some kinky stuff with no judgment. Butt stuff? Toys? Pegging? Sure, why not! That's not stuff I've ever done with a ONS though. And the threesomes/group activities I've engaged in? All with friends/people I was already familiar/comfortable with.