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Newest Member: Throwaway22

I Can Relate :
Spouses/Partners of Sex Addicts - 20

Topic is Sleeping.

DashboardMadonna ( member #71074) posted at 1:55 AM on Saturday, August 17th, 2019

Hi everyone...

I haven't been on in a few...I guess I got discouraged when my system ate my story... I still haven't mustered the energy and I almost feel it was a blessing because I feel that my thoughts are a bit incoherent to most... I just don't know how to "sum up" years of abuse... I need to learn bullet points and how to prioritize...

I also feel I betrayed myself, in that I broke down and slept with him... I guess my loneliness got the best of me. I am very starved of affection, thus the marriage.

It will be 2 years from DD, next month his behavior has gotten that much more appalling. He is extremely controlling and very immature.

I read everyones' posts...I agree, these fuckers are all the same.

I wish this thread was a board all it's own. I have a very hard time relating to the "typical" betrayed... while, I'm in no way down-playing their situations, some of the shit they say is completely ludicrous and insensitive...

I admit, I have a hard to time looking away, like a horrible trainwreck. I see a lot of them being very hypocritical and probably in denial of responsibility, in terms of their marriage.

Maybe it's me, but I just dont relate to most of them.

posts: 298   ·   registered: Jul. 23rd, 2019
id 8421909

DashboardMadonna ( member #71074) posted at 2:08 AM on Saturday, August 17th, 2019

I wanted to add-

I value everyone's story, here...

I put a lot of value in the story of someone's ability to get away and break free.

I wouldn't doubt that that majority of us want or plan to....myself, included. I am financially incapable and to say I feel trapped, is a vast understatement.

There is no redeeming the character I'm married to... he doesnt possess any redeeming qualities, that a husband should....he is extremely self absorbed and controlling.

posts: 298   ·   registered: Jul. 23rd, 2019
id 8421917

uddup ( member #15995) posted at 3:12 AM on Saturday, August 17th, 2019

@marji. Thanks for such a thoughtful post. For now it's the discussion with my WW. I'll have more context and data points to figure out next steps with the kids after that.

About telling your children have you considered telling them in a therapeutic setting-that is with the help and in the presence of a counselor? If you and your wife think that she is an addict or that he has additional mental issues such as bipolar disease then telling your children with the help of a counselor might be a help to you as well as them.

I did consider this and have an appointment on Wed with a therapist and will bring this concept up with her. I can trickle truth a little to the kids and reveal more if needed. I don't think I will have to tell the kids right away. Will depend on how well we can hold things together before dropping this sack of pooh in their laps.

Me: BS - 50
WW: 44 C1: 18 C2: 17

The next spring will be even more glorious for the winter that we endured together.

posts: 219   ·   registered: Aug. 30th, 2007   ·   location: Toronto - Canada
id 8421945

Lionne ( member #25560) posted at 4:19 AM on Saturday, August 17th, 2019

uddup, my kids were close to yours in age when the shit hit the fan. They actually knew more than I ever thought possible, as well as thinking worse things than reality. I think it's urgent to let them know some part of the story. Not only because addiction has a genetic component and because it truly is a family disease. Even if none of the particulars of her behavior is on the table, the underlying dysfunction is damaging.

For the record, our family is far healthier than it has been for a long time. There are no secrets, but neither have all the gory details been described. My husband's addiction was mostly porn, but RL crept in eventually. I felt it was important to warn them about the dangers of internet porn, the draw of mindless, anonymous interaction with virtual bodies and how it affects one's efforts to interact with humans. They also needed to know why I was a mess-I'm the fixer in the family.

It's a great idea to consult with an IC. But your wife should lead the disclosure.

Me-BS-65 in May<BR />HIM-SAFWH-68<BR />I just wanted a normal life.<BR />Normal trauma would have been appreciated.

posts: 8516   ·   registered: Sep. 18th, 2009   ·   location: In my head
id 8421969

Lionne ( member #25560) posted at 4:24 AM on Saturday, August 17th, 2019

I value everyone's story, here...

Amen. I particularly love that none of us judge others for staying or for leaving. I believe you people are utterly amazing, generous of spirit and compassionate. The decisions that we make are the ones which are right for us AT THE TIME, if you are anything like me, you are constantly evaluating the situation.

This is the ONLY place, and you guys are the only people (RL and Virtual) in the world where I can get support and affirmation.

Me-BS-65 in May<BR />HIM-SAFWH-68<BR />I just wanted a normal life.<BR />Normal trauma would have been appreciated.

posts: 8516   ·   registered: Sep. 18th, 2009   ·   location: In my head
id 8421973

DashboardMadonna ( member #71074) posted at 5:06 AM on Saturday, August 17th, 2019

Lord, give anyone strength in regards to having small children, when it comes to dealing with this shit.

The farther down, I've fallen into the rabbit hole, I have come to realize they really arent safe to be around children. Psychologists know this, but there is more money in Reconciling and "treating" these alleged addicts. It's because of this, that the court system sees it as nothing more than infidelity, in terms of custody battles.

There is no telling what they are capable of doing around their children, they literally get off on the taboo and they escalate it. The vast majority are victims of sexual abuse and are "acting out" with sick fantasies. There is nothing normal about perversion.

At minimal, they are viewing porn around their children, while doing God knows what. This could lead to inviting prostitutes name it...

I recently asked my son if he witnessed his father's behavior...not something I wanted to do, but felt I had to...I feared abuse..he said he walked into our bedroom and believes he caught my husband viewing porn, why getting off... thankfully our living situation made it hard (haha) for husband to bring hookers home...we were living with my mother, for whom I caregiver.

In my situation, I suspected him of cheating, for quite some time...I confronted and he ignored or blame shifted.

The night before DD, my husband went on some financial rage about Durritos being eaten...I now realize it was due to pussy-withdrawl syndrome...I ran out into the night crying and my adult son was the only one concerned....

He tried to talk me back into coming home. Upon returning, my husband was sound asleep, while my son stayed up. It was at that moment that I informed my son that I suspected his father was cheating.

The next morning, I had this hunch to go into his email and found the receipt to the phone payment...I clicked the link and lo and behold, the cookies for the password allowed me in. The very first phone number I googled, turned out to be a prostitute less than half my age...nothing but TT from became countless.

Anyone that knows me, knows that I am not computer savvy...I literally feel as though I was guided there.

I literally had no one to confide in and I called my son (he was at college) and informed him I was right and it was worse than I ever expected...

From that moment on, my son has picked me up from the floor a sobbing drunken mess....not my proudest moments. Thankfully, I have backed off some on that.

Sadly, I feel this has strained my relationship with my son, while his father blames me for telling my son what he has been up to... never taking responsibility for this.

I literally had another falling with my husband, the other night. We went out (HUGE MISTAKE ON MY PART) and my husband got angry at my confronting his mistreatment of me....he decided to walk into the house yelling, so that our son could hear...he knows this would hurt me....

The final blow...he is a trashy human being....a narcissist. These pieces of shit ruin the relationships with our children. There really isnt any "right way" to tell them.

Any way you look at it, our children will judge us...why did we pick them, why did we stay....they hear us cry and it hurts them... it's so heart wrenching and I hate my husband for it.

[This message edited by DashboardMadonna at 11:46 PM, August 16th (Friday)]

posts: 298   ·   registered: Jul. 23rd, 2019
id 8421986

DashboardMadonna ( member #71074) posted at 5:39 AM on Saturday, August 17th, 2019


I do relate to chronically questioning my decisions...

I need to get away... I truly believe he wants me to die... He has no problem with that being by my own hand, it would give him a platform to make it about himself.

posts: 298   ·   registered: Jul. 23rd, 2019
id 8421993

Booyah ( member #60124) posted at 11:55 AM on Saturday, August 17th, 2019

That breaks my heart to read dashboard.

That's a tough thing to know and to live every day like this.

posts: 1254   ·   registered: Aug. 11th, 2017
id 8422050

Lifeexploded ( member #51196) posted at 3:47 AM on Sunday, August 18th, 2019

Thats terrible Madonna. Sunce I gather your son is an adult, can you get out of the marriage?

My sawh is an alcoholic in addition to sa. In the last week, he has made two comments about wine, offering me the opportunity to have some. I choose to remain sober in solidarity, which is annoying. Anyway. The second time he mentioned it, I lightly made a snappy comment. Something along the lines of "do you think i havent noticed youve mentioned wine twice in the last week? I know what you are up to." And walked out of the room. Because, the last time he tried this was in 2015 and he later admitted he was doing it so he could start drinking again as well. Yesterday, we ended up having another of our "is this fixable, hes getting older, we arent having sex blah blah" conversations. A few interesting things happened but one was he brought up my comment. We had been in the kitchen at the time and our 13 year old son was also but I hadnt realized it. Sawh told me that I was being abusive and he doesnt want to teach our son that quietly taking abuse from your wife is not ok. What. Just what. He cant be serious.

Another bone of contention we have is that he previously agreed to give me all of his receipts to prove he isnt buying alcohol because he used to buy it while working, put in his lunch box and drink on his way home from work. He stopped turning in his receipts because "he isnt doing anything wrong and it made him feel like a little kid." He said that he would start showing them to me again if i agreed to hug him regularly and make him feel wanted. I said no, i dont need the receipts anymore and that i will not fake physical affection or allow any tpye of physical affection be used as a leveraging tool/bartering chip. He was literally speechless on that point.

We are at an impasse. He says he wants to fix it. But the poor thing doesnt know what to do. He needs for me to tell him what to do. This is going to take two people to fix he says. Well the thing is i have read much more than he has. I have watched more videos, listened to more podcasts. I dont think it is fixable, mostly because he is a child and incapable of "manning up". What should I say when he pulls this on me? Do i have a responsibilty toward him to do anything in particular? Other than my own self care and not killing him i mean. I can do those. I wish i had had a good comeback. I just said "you broke it. You figure out how to fix it." I dont think i should have to be the one to tell him what to do. He wants a check list. Its not that easy. He is still not able to express emotions, discuss them. Etc. Still sweeping all that under the rug. I need him to be open, honest, genuine, loving, caring, considerate, etc. Its like asking a fish to climb a tree.

Married for 19.5 years to a sex addict. Filed for divorce 4/15/2020. Freedom July 22, 2020!

posts: 435   ·   registered: Jan. 8th, 2016   ·   location: Texas
id 8422457

DashboardMadonna ( member #71074) posted at 5:39 AM on Sunday, August 18th, 2019

Lifeexploded, I totally relate. I see that you have young children and I am so humbled by this... I wish you so much better, love. Much strength to you. I have tears in my eyes, upon seeing this. God, you have no idea... I wish you so much better. I hope you have some sort of support system outside of this. I have so much empathy for a person that has small children going through this...its the only way I see my situation being worse. Please, no truly are an amazing person.-and with that, I really thank you for replying.

I really regret giving into sex with him. It's like sleeping with a serial killer.

That's the shit of it all, I can't break away, due to finances. I can't hold a job and alimony just wouldn't cut it. I plan on seeing a lawyer, but I won't get my hopes up. I literally have no one I can turn to.

This is where shit gets murky... my husband has his own issues with alcohol...upon the second time of kicking him out (more TT discovered) he decided to go out and party, followed by getting a DUI...He literally believes hes a rockstar. I wish I were joking.

He had his AA meetings, but he still drinks. I have my own issues with it, while I'm not trying to minimalize it, I literally took a spin six or seven years ago and started drinking heavily. Supposedly this was about the time my husband started fukcing hookers...go figure.

It only gets dark, from there. At this time (I struggle with suicidal depression) My suicidal thoughts were very bad, to the point of looking for a way out. I was on another round of antidepressants and they made things worse. I had been caregiving for my mother for over 15 years and I'll just say she isnt a nice person either.

I was literally bed ridden and my husband saw this and thought nothing of it...he would go out and party. It was pathetic. I suspected he was up to something, but I was so caught up in my mother's illness that I dont think I could have handled what he was up to.

Through those years he also informed me we haven't the money to find a place, without my having a job. I was always in between shit jobs, while caring for my mother...little did I know, it was the fact that his pussy fund would come to a hault.

About a month after moving out from there, is when things went down.

Like you, I feel as though I have another son. He blame shifts and still trys to control the finances. Hes a total narc. It's always something hes addicted, hookers, booze, video games, food....I'm sure I'm missing something. Hes a covert, so when he backs off one fix, he resorts to food. The further along, I go, the more I realize that meth may be a key player...he dabbled in speed, as a teen....and his mother was a speed freak.

The other night, when I confronted him, it was about how he informed me money is tight, while he turns around and plans on partying with his buddies. I confronted him calmly, he blew up in public, while accusing me of actually being irate or something to that effect. Blameshifted and tried to gaslight the shit out of me.

When I confronted him, he continued to yell...hes deteriorating... It was so out of context, that I believe it's part of the final discard...which tells me, he is still up to something...typical shit.

Just a monster of a human being... very sick.

[This message edited by DashboardMadonna at 2:08 AM, August 18th (Sunday)]

posts: 298   ·   registered: Jul. 23rd, 2019
id 8422498

whoami62 ( member #65972) posted at 4:41 PM on Sunday, August 18th, 2019

The last week has been hellish

Had a fight with SA husband , which began as a couple of triggers / reminders of his affair with a chat room porn cam whore

I am still not feeling safe and secure ..our couples therapist rides him really hard about trying to figure out what happened to him to make him a thing that often comes up is that he tells him that the next one is just around the corner and that scares this shit out of me...I don't believe that porn will be the issue , but rather a needy woman coming along IRL...

Spare the details but there was a trifecta that just made me erupt...

And if that wasn't enough , also experiencing a lot of employee issues that are putting a huge strain on us ,

Our dog is having major health issues that is putting her life in danger ( another long story )

And our D is on the verge of breaking up with her BF..they just relocated back home and are living with us...he made a major career decision and is going to have trouble finding another place to live and the worse part is , SHE is dealing with depression and not being very open to seeking professional help...some of her issues revolve around SAH affair

She told me yesterday that she resents her older sisters that don't know about the affair and SA

She resents her BF and others who she regards as having things easy because their parents are happy

She told me that she will never trust her dad again ,and that he completely got away with it

Life is just straight up pounding me right now

I feel like I am in a car driving 200 mph downhill and I have no brakes

posts: 568   ·   registered: Aug. 25th, 2018   ·   location: USA
id 8422598

marji ( member #49356) posted at 9:08 PM on Sunday, August 18th, 2019

whoamiI have probably mentioned this before, but a good SANON group can be an enormous help--for your daughter too. We have adult children of SAs in ours including a man, now in his thirties, who thinks it's the group rather than any therapist who helped him deal with all the feelings and issues raised by his father's betrayal. He's been attending for 10 years now.

And yes, I can't imagine your not feeling scared by hearing the therapist say "the next one is just around the corner." What in the world did he mean? The next temptation? the next betrayal? Do you think he said that to provoke your H into speaking more openly, to being more transparent?

But riding him hard "about trying to figure out about what happened to him to make him an SA" are you sure that's what the therapist said?

First of all it can take many, many months of a therapist working with a possible SA for the therapist and the client together to reach an SA conclusion--it's not just about behavior but also about almost constant fantasies, urges, thoughts, feelings. There are 20 question tests but the person would have to be answering completely honestly and the therapist would have to have full disclosure. The therapists my H went to said it's always ultimately a matter of self-diagnosis--there's no objective test as there might be for some physical ailments or diseases.

But maybe more importantly, there isn't necessarily a particular things that happened that "makes" any an SA--any more than a particular thing that happened that makes some one alcoholic or drug addicted. There maybe a family history or dynamic, ways of raising a child that might show a link between that history and what seems to be an extreme level of moral, ethical bankruptcy but not something that a betrayer can necessarily something to "figure out" like a math problem.

But again, about your daughter. Sounds as though she's having a perfectly normal reaction to what she has now been exposed to. And it is very disturbing. But the good thing is she is talking; she's sharing her concerns, her thoughts, her feelings with you--you have open lines of communication and that is extremely important and healthy. Also good is that your H is still going to the therapist--I remember you were concerned he would quit.

So as bad as things are there are positive things as well.

I am very very sorry about your dog, who. My dog was very ill for a year with serious kidney disease and she succumbed January 27--after helping me so very much with her humor and her beauty and her energy on August 27-four years ago. She was one of my life savers.

You are dealing with so much now, who. Really if you can find a good IRL group, SANON or another, even if by phone or Skype, it might be of great help. We all need a big support team.

posts: 2230   ·   registered: Aug. 28th, 2015   ·   location: NYC
id 8422751

DashboardMadonna ( member #71074) posted at 9:34 PM on Sunday, August 18th, 2019


Do you find going to the councilor helps?

Based on my experience, it made things worse. We had two. The first one he talked to on the phone about our son and the councilor victim shamed me upon the very first visit. The bitch literally "tsk tsked" me, upon telling her that I informed my adult son, from mere result of trauma. That was the end of that bitch.

The second one wasn't much husband lied to both the councilor and I about the entirety of what was up to.

This councilor tried to pull the same shit with me. We were two months from DD and I told her I felt my husband's resentment (hes a narc-how they justify their behavior) toward me. Her reply was that she felt resentment on both sides....Ummmm WTF?! He cheated on me with hookers, circling back toward his resentment of his family.... Peter pan syndrome... hello!? Of course I resent a POS human being. She refused to hear what I was saying.

Counciling was just bad- my husband went on about finances and the MC literally had us moving forward, like nothing happened. Talking about financial issues...literally my husbands way of manipulating the situation. Hes worried about money because of his hooker fund. It also deflected blame on me. Just a POS person.

This is where I circle back in saying MCs arent trained to deal with SA freaks... let alone narcs...its a low end education, in my eyes. I have found that most couples (regardless of the infidelity) find it made things worse. MC is also for Reconciling, most SAs arent Reconciling material...

There is money to be had here...I am positive she knew he was lying, shes seen it before, surely. What MCs should do is address the victims as just that "victims" and recommend us to a trauma specialist, to assure our safety. We should be addressed in a manor of recovery as abuse victims and shown how to move forward without them, for our own safety and the safety of our children.

I feel you about your daughter. Part of my moving forward depends on the security of my son. I dont want to up-root him until I know he has a secure place to go. Once I split the finances will be too.

My son also has issues with his relationship with his girlfriend...she has a lot of issues with her own insecurities and my son always feels as though hes being grilled about his motives.

posts: 298   ·   registered: Jul. 23rd, 2019
id 8422767

ashestophoenix ( member #48624) posted at 10:38 PM on Sunday, August 18th, 2019

Such painful stories. I am so sorry.

I have listened again to the Marnie Breecker podcasts, you tube video, and podcast with Omar Minwhalla. I strongly recommend listening to them. She gives real clarity to the different types of trauma we go through.

Prior to D-day, marriage counselors damaged me. They believed my husband's lies and not my truth. I'm in MC now, but my husband had to show significant progress on recovery and sobriety in order for me to go to MC with him. I would NEVER recommend seeing a CSAT together in early days after discovery. Our partners have to get their act together and grow up for the first time in their lives and manage their own sobriety and recovery.

What do we owe them? Nothing. We owe them nothing. They violated all of our vows and relationship agreements. We owe them nothing.

But we do owe ourselves. I really only began to heal when I finally detached from my husband and found my own trauma counselor. I had read enough to know I needed help with my trauma and PTSD. Finding the right counselor for me took several tries, but it was worth it.

The blaming. The anger. The lies. The whining. The entitlement. The heartless lack of caring and concern. The narcissistic self absorption. This is all abuse. All of it. It was crucial for me to realize that my husband was abusing me. When I finally used that as the lens to look at his behavior, I saw the abuse clearly. That made it so much easier to call it out and start learning about boundaries. I am much better than in the past.

We didn't cause the addiction. Nothing we do or not do will make them act our or get sober. That is 100% on them. This was so important for me to understand at a deep level. And it was liberating.

When they pull this crap ("help me fix this...we haven't had sex...when will you get over're abusing me'), we need to be able to say out loud, "What a bunch of BS. That's just abuse. Knock it off."

I have really detached from my husband. He has to earn time with me. He has to earn my caring for him.


[This message edited by ashestophoenix at 6:12 PM, August 18th (Sunday)]

Me: BS, 58
Him: WH, 72, sex/love/porn addict; intimacy anorexic; EA's and who knows what else
Married: 30+ years
D-days: multiple since 2013

posts: 454   ·   registered: Jul. 16th, 2015   ·   location: New England
id 8422814

DestroyedWife80 ( member #66005) posted at 2:30 AM on Monday, August 19th, 2019

Sorry if this is TMI...

I have high desire & always have. I used to chase WH looking for loving from him. Now, it happens sometimes, but I don't ask him for it like I used to.

So, bc I am not a cheating scum bag, I am left with myself to take care of business. I've found some fun toys & do what needs to be done.

However- I have now reached the point where I have to watch porn about hidden massage parlor cameras in order to climax.

Now- normally- just SEEING those places makes me feel sick to my stomach and is a trigger for sad/depressing feelings.

So why now do I seem to *like* these videos?!

One of the hardest things to do in life is letting go of what you thought was real.

Married 4/2018
D-Day #1- 8/2018
D-Day #2- 1/2019
DD#3 October 2019
Me: 38 BW, I am broken
Him: 47 WH, sex addict/sexting/escorts: lie & deny everything! Gasl

posts: 305   ·   registered: Aug. 28th, 2018
id 8422952

DashboardMadonna ( member #71074) posted at 6:36 PM on Monday, August 19th, 2019


I will check those podcasts out, thank you. I so agree with what you have said. Not of of these MCs addressed me as an abuse victim. The second MC saw us seperately and then, together, on alternating weeks.

I really do feel like that damaged me, as well. It affirmed this thought, that we, as women, are to just deal with it and that men are going to what they are going to do. Are we in the Victorian era? I am by no means some pseudofeminazi, but I do believe that we are to be treated with the same respect that men are...all this hunter gatherer bullshit, I see thrown around on other threads grosses me out. Women prowl just as men do, we dont faint with the vapors, while waiting for some man to bless us with his presence. There is so much societal conditioning and programming...hell, even psychology is to blame. Most of the crap they pumped down us, has been turned on its head and I love psychology.

I think a lot of knowledge comes from age and this situation has aged me so much. I am so much wiser than I was 12 years ago. Back then I just wanted someone to love me, I now realize it really does come from within. Doesnt hurt any less that I have never experienced that from both the parental (childhood) and marital front, but I feel better armed and have more foresight.

I have gathered great info from the "sisterhood of support" YouTube videos....I wish they would upload more. They are victims and believe in the trauma approach, as well.

[This message edited by DashboardMadonna at 12:49 PM, August 19th (Monday)]

posts: 298   ·   registered: Jul. 23rd, 2019
id 8423331

DashboardMadonna ( member #71074) posted at 6:47 PM on Monday, August 19th, 2019


I dont think what you describe as weird or TMI, it's a result of trauma. We are so devastated by this secret life, that it gives us this morbid curiosity. I believe it is a way for our minds to process why they chose that to us.

My husband loved his parlors, also. I had this sick obsession with looking up opinions of prostitutes. When I came down to it, I realized that the majority (even in interviews) lie because it would hurt business and their lives may be threatened for saying anything other than how they love the taste of cum.

I think there needs to be a safe place to speak of sexual thing and it's no secret that I cuss a lot. I realize that may seem over-the-top/crass, but it is how I speak in person. I believe in being nothing, but honest and I value facts. Maybe I sound like a narc, in saying this, but I am the friend I wish I had. I have never had a friend that was candid or honest with me.

The closest friend (we grew up in the same nieghborhood) is a lot like my mother, kind of prudish. When we were girls, she was more candid, than now, which I find very odd. I almost wonder if she believes I'm some deviant, myself and that I somehow brought this on myself.

When I am not sick in bed, with depression, you may catch me on a dancefloor. I almost thi k I am judged for that. I am a 43-year-old woman, I am not dead. My son is grown and I love music.

[This message edited by DashboardMadonna at 1:22 PM, August 19th (Monday)]

posts: 298   ·   registered: Jul. 23rd, 2019
id 8423344

marji ( member #49356) posted at 1:31 AM on Tuesday, August 20th, 2019

Marnie Breecher podcast with Dr. Omar Minwalla --wondering if anyone has listened to this and found it helpful?

posts: 2230   ·   registered: Aug. 28th, 2015   ·   location: NYC
id 8423639

ashestophoenix ( member #48624) posted at 3:00 AM on Tuesday, August 20th, 2019

Marji. Yes. Very helpful.


Me: BS, 58
Him: WH, 72, sex/love/porn addict; intimacy anorexic; EA's and who knows what else
Married: 30+ years
D-days: multiple since 2013

posts: 454   ·   registered: Jul. 16th, 2015   ·   location: New England
id 8423687

marji ( member #49356) posted at 4:22 AM on Tuesday, August 20th, 2019

Thank you ashes I will tune in tomorrow. Have been very triggered these past weeks by the Epstein stuff. It's horrifying to realize that my H and Epstein were essentially doing the same thing minus the rape and supposedly the underage status. But in a sense it was really the same since the women in the parlors are trafficked and if not actually minors certainly young and naive women from Eastern Europe and Asia who often have no idea what they've gotten into. It's exploitation of women who are financially and socially vulnerable. Maybe what my H did was even worse than what Epstein did since some of the women in the parlors may not be free to leave if the owners have their passports, if they are here without documentation, if they have no home. The girls at Epsteins were exploited and abused for sure but as far as anything I've read, they were not imprisoned, not made to work there day after day. It's all creepy.

Not sure how the podcasts can help in any way but will give it a try.

posts: 2230   ·   registered: Aug. 28th, 2015   ·   location: NYC
id 8423735
Topic is Sleeping.
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