SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

From my own perspective, I've wasted way too much time and energy examining the "why", and finding commonalities, etc. I have better things to do. Just my $0.02 from someone who went down that rabbit hole way too many times.

Did you reach that perspective after filing for divorce?

Did you reach that perspective after filing for divorce?

Long before. I still haven't filed for divorce. Shit's complicated. Hoping to file early next year.

How you been, Loukas? Good to see you on here, man. I've always enjoyed your perspective.

All that, to say this. It wasn’t just lying that got you laid. Give women more credit than that and while you’re at it, give yourself more credit as well. The lies and deceit may play a role, but under that, is something authentic in your personality, good or bad. Without it, the deceit would quickly fade.

I certainly don't think it was my "real personality" that was getting me laid. The only thing that was real about me when at that stage in my life when dealing with woman were my looks. Those were "authentic" and certainly helped me at the time. But, I can tell you, there was a distinct point in my life (after winter break, freshman year in college) where yes, I threw a switch and went "full asshole". And the results were inarguable, I didn't change anything about my look, my body, or anything other than the lens which I approached women. I read books on it and internalized the messages, the lines, the techniques, and I put them into action. And it worked shockingly well, I went from having 2 partners to that point to, by the end of the year, ~12 months later, probably closer to 20.

Just thinking out loud here, but what are the chances that your wife was the typical woman you looked for in asshole mode? What are the chances that some of the behaviours from asshole mode carried over into the early stages of dating your wife? I’m not talking about the most obvious and deceitful manipulations, but the subtle nuances of actual personality required to make any deceit believable in the first place.

I didn't much have a "type", more so "available" and interested. I just pretty quickly fell hard for her, but, you're right, I was still in "asshole mode" when I met her and some of those behaviors totally carried over into the beginning of our relationship. But, I actually distinctly remember times in our early relationship when we'd have a discussion and I'd think "OK, this is the "right" (asshole) answer, but the real answer is this, and I'll tell her the real answer". And that's how I dropped the cloak, by slowly, more and more, giving the "real" vs the "right" answer to her questions and in our discussions.

If you think about it, what did you and her AP have in common?

Far, far too much. He just stayed in "asshole mode". I recognized some of the lines he used, seriously, from things I'd read years ago. I know he was playing the same role that I was when I met her. And, maybe there's something to that, she's attracted to "that guy", but, problem is, that guy isn't even a little bit sustainable. The way that whole "game" works is by scarcity mentality. A game that you cannot use when you're married, because, well, it's not like "OK, fine, you don't want to go out with me tonight, I'll go out with someone else". And the AP played that thread masterfully; my W is home, so I can only meet you in the parking lot, going to make it worth it?

But your right, and perhaps what you're trying to say, my wife is attracted to assholes. I'm not sure I have a leg on to argue against that, but, if true, that's honestly her problem. Am I willing to up the "edge", sure. But this is kind of like a WH who is really just attracted to sleeping with lots of women, it's hard to figure out how to incorporate that into the bounds of marriage. Part of marriage is removal of the "scarcity" for both spouses and also removal for sex anyone but your spouse.

Attraction is a fucked up thing, and it never seems to change all that much, for anyone.

That's both terrifying and seems true and reasonable.

But your right, and perhaps what you're trying to say, my wife is attracted to assholes. I'm not sure I have a leg on to argue against that, but, if true, that's honestly her problem.

That was exactly what I was trying to say, only hoping to hear it from you. If it were true, it doesn’t mean it’s just her problem, but are you interested in living with her problem? I’m not saying divorce, just keep an open mind as to who you might have married.

In the end, I would be very careful projecting your wife onto all other women and using her as anecdotal evidence of shitty ideologies. As you said, if your wife is possibly attracted to assholes, that is honestly her problem, and not a women problem.

Long before. I still haven't filed for divorce. Shit's complicated. Hoping to file early next year.

Cool, I never got stuck in the comparing phase, but the fucking why’s had me a for long time. I often wondered if it was divorce that helped get out of it, or just a moment I reached. Well, filed or not, your moving on, in the end, that’s all that really matters!

I’ve been pretty good. Slowly rebuilding my life. Taking it all a little slower this time around and enjoying the day to day. It’s kinda fucked up, but when I was married, my desires had me chasing my tail. After I walked away from it all, I’m just not as bothered anymore. I mean I still have desires and goals, but they don’t do the driving anymore.

I often wondered if it was divorce that helped get out of it, or just a moment I reached. Well, filed or not, your moving on, in the end, that’s all that really matters!

I'm actually really glad you asked the question. It got me thinking. Looking back, I stopped caring about the "why" pretty much around the same time I stopped caring about where the relationship was headed.

I’ve been pretty good. Slowly rebuilding my life. Taking it all a little slower this time around and enjoying the day to day. It’s kinda fucked up, but when I was married, my desires had me chasing my tail. After I walked away from it all, I’m just not as bothered anymore. I mean I still have desires and goals, but they don’t do the driving anymore.

This sounds an awful lot where I am treading right now, and I am starting to enjoy it. I feel a sense of relief. It honestly helps to hear that someone else has the same general outlook, so thank you. I'm just kind of concentrating on me and my kid right now. Glad to hear you are doing pretty good.

I was a violent, drunken "asshole" during my 20's. Burned through two marriages because of that.

Then I got married again in my mid-thirties after becoming a sober, kind, and safe kind of guy. What was my reward? Two A's. There may have been more that I know nothing about. The upcoming polygraph and Eye-Detect tests should reveal the truth.

The point? There is no point. Pick the wrong wife, one with no moral compass or self-control, and it won't matter whether you're an "asshole" or a nice guy. A broken wife will lead to a broken marriage.

I'm not even angry these days. Just aware of my inability to choose wisely when it comes to a mate.

Then I got married again in my mid-thirties after becoming a sober, kind, and safe kind of guy. What was my reward? Two A's.

I'm going to have to fight you a bit on this one, Mr. Kite. You did all this work, and you got YOU back. That was your reward. That has nothing to do with the hard cold fact that you were betrayed. You won the battle of sobriety, and I commend you for that.

Is your picker broken? Maybe. That's what I'm trying to analyze about myself as well. I seem to be attracted to women who have severe issues. Just know you're not alone in this thought process.

Morning Gents.

What was my reward?

I know it’s Friday (Happy Friday) and it may not be the best time for this, but this question caught my eye. Allow me to wax philosophical for a minute - feel free to skip if it’s not your bag.

I struggled with this question for a long time. Because I did everything “right” in life. No joke. Clean cut, no heavy drinking, drugs, smoking. Exercised and was slim. Studied hard, college, worked hard, studied more and went literally to one of the best graduate schools in the country. Married, kids, I was a good husband. Kind, sensitive, blah blah blah. I’m not saying any of this to brag about how wonderful I am, but to paint a picture. I lived my life under the guise of if only I did everything right and played by the “rules” then life would move along perfectly.

And what was my reward?

We can all play this game.

What I’ve come to realize is that no one get away unscathed in life. Look around you wherever you are or even just here on SI. Look how many stories there are of people struggling with issues outside of infidelity. We all have our rock to carry. And the interesting thing is that we tend to separate our issues or troubles into nice little buckets when in reality it’s all part of the package.

So what can we do? I’ve spent a lot of time appreciating the blessings I’ve had in my life and understanding that my situation is what it is, but if it wasn’t this it would be something else. What would I prefer to have instead? Sick kids God forbid? Drug or criminal issues in my family? Mental illness? So I’m dealing with this shit sandwich. That’s my thing now. When I was younger it was losing my Dad (I’m now older than he was when he passed and I’m still in my 40’s).

I don’t think I’m explaining myself very well, but what I’m trying to say is that it’s not about your reward or anything else like that. It’s all part of your life package. You became safe and sober for you. You became healthy for you. What your wife did is on your plate to deal with but it’s not a reflection on you. I echo what LosferWords said. Now you have to navigate through this mess and it sucks, but living right has its own rewards and you should proud of what you’ve done with your life in that regard.

There’s a reason my sig is what it is. Because we all have crap to deal with but we also have positives and blessings if we look for them and appreciate them. It doesn’t take away from the difficulties of dealing with this mess, but it doesn’t negate those good things either. There are plenty of rewards in life and finding those and building on those, I’ve found, has helped me better deal with the hard stuff life has thrown my way.

Sorry for the philosophy. Have a beer. It’s Friday.

You did all this work, and you got YOU back.

what I’m trying to say is that it’s not about your reward or anything else like that. It’s all part of your life package. You became safe and sober for you. You became healthy for you.

Understood. The marriage is part of my life, not all of it. Had I not kicked the addictions it would have ended my life at a young age.

I didn't put in all that work on myself in order to find the perfect wife. It was merely an observation that no matter what kind of man I became, it didn't seem to matter as long as my "picker" was broken.

When I was younger it was losing my Dad (I’m now older than he was when he passed and I’m still in my 40’s).

My dad passed away unexpectedly at age 43 a few weeks after I turned 22. Talked to him on a Saturday morning and he seemed fine. That night he was gone.

Loved ones die, friends die, pets die. It's the circle of life and no one escapes that reality. You deal with the grief and you move on.

But what seriously pisses me off is the unnecessary, selfish actions of others which add onto the expected grief and suffering of life, just because they feel like it.

RIO,

I may be hiding things from myself, that I can get behind and examine. But I am not intentionally lying to you or other members, and I don't think it's fair to say that

Well, hiding something from yourself is, unfortunately, lying.

And if you lie to yourself about something, you can't help lying to others about that thing, even though you intend to tell the truth.

There's no question in my mind about your intentions. I have no doubt that you intend to paint an accurate picture of yourself. I just see you differently from how you see yourself, and of course I think I'm right.

I urge you to really consider the external validation aspect of sex. Sure, the physical sensation is terrific, but so is the emotional satisfaction, and so is the external validation aspect of being desired by someone you want to desire you.

So consider it.... IDK ... I think I get much more enjoyment from sex believing it's more than a jolt of oxytocin.

Not many people would go for external validation if they had to experience physical pain to get it - but you know that. I know a reductio ad absurdum when I see one.

If you feel you get some good therapy from SI, I urge you to donate. That's how I justify donating.

Let the wound heal, bro. Your W's repressing her sexuality with you was all about her, not about you.

[This message edited by sisoon at 11:50 AM, October 11th (Friday)]

'Sup, fellas?

I wonder how Incarnate is doing. I don't know the geography of California very well and where the fires are currently raging compared to where Incarnate lives.

I also hope that all of our SI compatriots are safe from the fires. Lots of people aren't. Prayers for them.

Hey UandB.

Nice to see you. Hope all is well?

I'm doing fine, Steady. Thanks for wondering, that really means a lot to me.

The fires are far south of me. I live about 20 minutes from the ocean in far northern California. I'm about 2 hours south of Oregon. We've got the cool, wet, mild ocean marine climate here, so we're seldom in any real wildfire danger here, which is nice, but a few hours inland and it gets bad. Paradise (the town that burned last year) is about 4 hours inland, and Santa Rosa (the town that burned in 2017) is about the same south. Our little part of Cape Mendocino, though, is relatively safe.

Been keeping busy as I can. Refinished the top of my altar/chest over the last few days; disassembled it completely, sanded it all down, repaired as much damage as I could, reassembled and glued it, reinforced it, and put the first coat on it yesterday morning.

Gonna sand it ans add a second coat in a little bit... was waiting for the ex to get out of the house (she was supposed to take the kids to a movie today, and I was gonna use the time to get some work done), but I hear her dorking around in her room, and the movie starts in 8 minutes, and is in a town that is a 20 minute drive away, so i don't think that's gonna happen.

Oh well. I'll just spend the day avoiding her as usual.

I've got 18/19 chapters done on the revision of my book. Only one more to do. I should be able to hopefully finish it today, then I get to work on formatting it into ebook, paperback, and hardcover editions, writing a dedication (my first one that won't include my ex), and maybe a short Author's Note.

I have some commentary on the whole "broken picker" and wants/needs for sexuality in a a relationship, but my thoughts aren't very on-point right now. Maybe I'll respond later, maybe I'll just let it all slide at this point.

[This message edited by Incarnate at 12:32 PM, October 13th (Sunday)]

Howdy, Walloped. Yeah, everything's great. Just popped into the thread to say hi. I rarely log in anymore.

Good to see you out here, UaB! Sounds like life is treating you well?

Incarnate - good to hear from you as well. Is there any significance to the runes on that chest that intertwines with your current experience? Just curious. Either way, it is a beautiful piece of wood work. Really nice job!

I would like to hear your "broken picker" commentary, for one, because I think I broached that subject, and for two, because I feel like I have a "broken picker".

Walloped - It is always great to see you here. Your input has been valuable to me, even at times where I have just been kind of lurking here. Hope you are doing well!

Regarding "Asshole Mode" and it's use as a tool to close...

I have this friend at work who's mid 30s like me, 3 kids, just starting to enter into that weird stage where she's less attracted to her husband and men are making moves on her. She's got a great personality, not really my type physically but cute enough where her whole package as a person would clearly be a magnet to men mid 30s and up. It's humorous to see how monumentally not used to men's "game" she is.

For instance, she was at a work conference and some guy from a different department met her for the first time. Immediately he started with the playful negging. This apparently continued throughout the day as they crossed paths. Then at the end of it, he asked if she wanted to get a drink. She declined, calling that entire interaction a completely disaster. This guy was also married, also with multiple kids. After she told me she was flabbergasted by the whole thing, I had to open up the Men Hitting On Women 101 textbook and read her the introductory paragraph, the one that starts off with boys pulling girls' hair because they have a crush on them.

Anyway, she had no idea that Asshole Mode was a thing for picking up women until I told her, despite acknowledging that she recognizes little boys picking on her daughter is a sign that they like her. I guess she thinks that maturity means completely different behaviors instead of the same crap slightly tweaked for adult consumption

boys pulling girls' hair because they have a crush on them

Never been my M.O. Due to lack of self-esteem I only picked from those who picked me first. This greatly limited the pool of women to pick from. Rejection was never something I handled/or still handle well.

FOO issues can have long-term effects on a young boy once he grows to be a man. "You'll never amount to anything" is something I heard all too often while growing up. As an adult this morphed into "You're lucky anyone would marry you, so you'd better stay with her even if she screwed other guys."

Not feeling sorry for myself. Just saying that low self-esteem may negatively affect one's life decisions unless intensive IC happens over a long period of time.

All the other reasons I used to stay in this broken M for so long are merely excuses. The truth is that I never believed in myself enough to dump her and start over with someone else.

Dating women who approach first was also my M.O. I was a fat kid with bad acne and, not surprisingly, when my skin cleared and I lost weight, I didn't magically become this super confident guy. Of course after years of gaining confidence, this whole ordeal hits me and knocks me back down to square one. I feel completely incapable of gauging whether a woman is interested in me or not so I don't even bother escalating. Not a great mindset and I hope I eventually shake this crap.