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Betrayed Menz Thread-Part 33

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BrainFreeze posted 9/4/2018 11:56 AM

Just be ready for a shit-storm of "divorce the cheating bitch" replies.

No worries about that... you already did!

I don't really have any advice for you, but I know that I do frequently feel like a plan B.

When I get that way, I look at who she is now, how she treats me now... and I know (with my brain) that I am not plan B... but my heart still feels a twinge of it...

Notthevictem posted 9/4/2018 13:37 PM


sisoon posted 9/4/2018 14:41 PM

I think I know what you mean. There's a big difference between, 'Yes!' and 'OK.' But you can't get 'Yes!' unless the person can say, 'No,' too, and a people pleaser can't just give an honest, 'No.' And when she says, 'OK,' she probably builds up resentment.

IMO, the problem is people pleasing. Is she in IC to change that?

Yeah, this post may be pure projection.

[This message edited by sisoon at 2:42 PM, September 4th (Tuesday)]

wincing_at_light posted 9/4/2018 18:10 PM

Thanks for the responses. This isn't a SAHM situation - despite her not working I was/am the primary caregiver. The 50/50 asset split I can deal with mentally, but the thought of paying out 25% of my salary for 12 years (what the calculator says I'll need to do) just drives me up a frigging wall.

I'm in the category of folks who believe that the best option here is to tell your spouse you need to move to another state (call it space from the place of the affair or whatever), pick one that has no-fault/no alimony (like mine), do enough time to qualify as a citizen of that state...and then divorce.

(Not talking about child support here. In an ideal world, custody is split 50/50 and nobody gets CS. If your wife doesn't work, make that a requirement of R. Even if she doesn't earn as much as you do, every bit helps when it's munged into the calculator. But even in a non-ideal world, child support is my minimum obligation as a dad. That's a contract between me and them. It has nothing to do with my spouse, cheating or otherwise. But, I mean, always go for full custody. For fuck's sake, how does one sleep at night knowing their kids might be raised by someone who spreads like peanut butter for anybody with a handy compliment? That's not a life skill one earns a scouting badge in.)

I don't believe in fair play when it comes to divorcing duplicitous spouses. That's a "fool me once" scenario, but YMMV. You still have to be able to look at yourself in the mirror when it's all over.

For anyone still considering the possibility of reconciliation, of course, none of this is applicable.

This post constitutes my bi-annual login to let the old guys know that I'm still alive. Things are going well. Our youngest bio-son just moved into his first apartment while he's finishing up at college, and the kids we adopted still aren't fit for human consumption...but they're getting (a little) better every day -- especially since I've finally realized that our first daughter isn't completely psychotic 100% of the time due to years of neglect and abuse in her childhood...that's just what raising girls is like.

Notthevictem posted 9/4/2018 18:13 PM

I think I saw a WAL....

wincing_at_light posted 9/4/2018 18:33 PM

Oh, you saw me. And you liked all 10 inches of it.

We're men here. We can be honest.

Edit: 11 to 10. No need to exaggerate at my age.

[This message edited by wincing_at_light at 6:34 PM, September 4th (Tuesday)]

wincing_at_light posted 9/4/2018 18:52 PM

I see that HT hasn't been posting a shit ton lately.

Ima leave this here:

hatefulnow posted 9/5/2018 05:50 AM


Took your advice. It was great advice. It was fun an she seemed genuinely engaged. Nothing too crazy, but I guess making her plan things out and me not taking any responsibility for it was different for her...and me. Maybe it was novelty, but I do appreciate it.


Butforthegrace posted 9/5/2018 08:14 AM

Glad to be of service. Given your description, it struck me as possible that she is so focused on trying to see and respond to what you want that she wasn't feeling room to express what she wants. However, under the circumstances (she's still with you despite the divorce), it does appear that she in fact wants you. So the idea is to create room to allow her to show that. Let her relax a bit.

STBXH posted 9/6/2018 23:50 PM

OK guys...let's see who can unfuck this emotion for me...I'm talking to YOU Buttforthegrace, Oldtruck, Rideitout, TryingtocopeMD, BrainFreeze, Notthevictim, and Sisoon.. I have a TON of other heros here too, but if I didn't mention you, it's because I'm a couple cocktails into this night. I know if someone I respect responds and I didn't or forgot to mention them, then I shall deem myself an amoral asshole with no integrity whatsoever.

So, really simple. As many of you, I WANT TO MURDER THE FUCKING AP. [Disclosure: Dear law enforcement, if this asshat ends up dead, it wasn't me....but most likely another fucking BS...as I'm sure there are a few.]

I have an enormous sense of injustice about this whole thing that it keeps me up at night. He got away with it, his wife believed him not me, and they both filed a police report against me because they feared I would attack them. So my work and all my coworkers got to find out about my wife's A. He got away with it and there's nothing I can do about that.

Here's the real issue: As soon as I informed his OBS, he dropped my wife like she was nothing to her. He fed her all these lines (she was willing to believe them) but when the time came to come clean to his wife, he denied my WW. He was a wordsmith and she loved it. she risked EVERYTHING for shitty sex in the back of a van and he denied her. I'm fucking insulted by this. At least be a man and come clean. THEY FUCKING SAID "I LOVE YOU" TO EACH OTHER. He gave her guilt trips when she disclosed about us having sex, he got mad that she wanted to break it off, AND they had lots of sex. The least you could do is be a man and come clean. I got ZERO satifaction and that bothers me to no end.

I'm mad at the AP because he INSULTED my wife by denying her. He did not defend her honor. How stupid am I? This takes up realestate in my brain. It's not as bad as my pain from the actual A but it still irks me. I need to get to "IDGAF", but that seems like an impossibility.

Proceed with the wisdom boys...I'm listening.

Butforthegrace posted 9/7/2018 05:40 AM

I'm sorry, I don't have any wisdom to offer, though I'm grateful to be thought of as a hero by at least one anonymous person on the internet. A similar thing happened to Estirpe. Did you see his thread in General? But I think he may be in another country, where libel laws and such are different than here.

I watch a lot of soccer, and some NBA. In both contexts, we see over and over that the dirty player who commits the initial sneaky, dirty foul often gets away with it, while the injured player who commits a fully justified retaliatory foul gets caught and red carded or ejected. Bottom line, retaliators always get fucked, and not in a good way.

So, don't retaliate against POSOM. But I'm sure you're smart enough to know that.

And forget about his wife. She's pathetic and desperate.

DO make it very clear to your WW that this is part of the shit sandwich she served to you. This situation only exists because of what she chose to do with this man. 100% of the blame and responsibility should fall on her shoulders. "Thank you, honey, for bringing this man into our lives. Now, I have a false police report on my record, and everybody at my job knows our business. I'm so grateful I married you."

A week or so ago, on your anti-versary, you found out the depth of her character in terms of shouldering her burden and helping you heal. This is another piece of the same thing. If she were doing the work, you would be way less impacted by POSOM and his actions. Part of the reason you are so pissed is that POSOM is still present in your marriage, but that is only the case because your WW is still letting him be present there.

My friend, I would strongly suggest a hard 180 from your WW, including an actual separation. Possibly filing your D to get the ball rolling. She will either wake up, or not, but in the meantime you're living in purgatory.

As to POSOM, play the long game. Bide your time. He can't continue being a scumbag forever. Make sure as many people as possible know what a piece of shit he is and what he did with your wife, knowing she was a married woman. Make sure those same people know how pathetic his wife is for staying with him and defending him. Keep control of that message within your social sphere.

I would mention it is theoretically possible to get a DA interested in going after him for filing a false police report. That is a crime. However, my observation generally is that DA's, with limited resources, aren't too interested in pursuing those cases unless there was some other crime involved, or some kind of death or grievous injury. Also, it would only be a case if he made false factual statements (i.e. - "He accused me of having sex with his wife, but I have never had sex with his wife."), as opposed to merely statements about his worries (i.e. -- "He called my wife and spoke to her in a manner that she found threating, and I am afraid he might come after us.").

If you wanted to spend a few thousand bucks, you could hire a private lawyer and sue him for things like filing a false report, alienation of affection, intentional infliction of emotional distress, etc. It's very unlikely you would recover any meaningful money from this effort, but it would create a circumstance in which your WW could be subpoena'd to get on the witness stand and testify as to the dirty details of their sexual encounters, on the record, under oath. Some guys would hire that lawyer and file that case just for the opportunity to force the WW to do that. Just saying...

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 9:20 AM, September 7th (Friday)]

Butforthegrace posted 9/7/2018 08:46 AM

STBHX, may I offer you a parable?

I was born and raised in a small town. Classic middle America old-school ďMain StreetĒ type town. My grandfather started a small business in that small town, some time between WWI and WWII. Classic small town retail business. Brick building on Main Street with parapets and an engraved granite nameplate above the windows. Friendly clerks who knew every customerís name and credit was recorded on a dirty sheet of paper slipped under the old cash register. He had a business partner, who I will call Mr. Smith.

Mr. Smith was probably about 10 years younger than my grandfather. When my father was of age, he bought my grandfather out of the business and became partners with Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith and my father grew the business. They bought a warehouse. A fleet of trucks. More locations in other towns. Brought in more partners. Classic middle America hard working small business, nose to the grindstone, prudent with the money. We did well. Lots of people worked full careers and supported families from that business. Many young people, like me, held down summer and/or evening jobs there during high school.

Our family and the Smith family became close socially. Many weekend barbecues at the lake, water skiing, etc. Paterfamilias Smith retired about 10 years after my Grandfather. His son did not buy him out, but the extended families remained close friends.

My fatherís sister (my Aunt) inherited my grandparentsí home Ė just a couple of blocks from our home Ė when my grandparents passed. She lived in a big city several hundred miles away with her husband and family, but would spend holidays and summers in that house.

My Aunt has a daughter. Letís call her Holly. That makes Holly my cousin, although she is about 15 years my junior. Holly grew up in the big city. She is a naturally pretty girl, tall and lithe with an amazing rack and long blonde hair. Life can be easy, in certain ways, for pretty young women, especially if theyíre generous with the punani and not particularly discriminating about who they share it with. As the Eagles said: "City girls seem to find out early how to open doors with just a smile."

Holly was that kind of girl, a modern-day Hollygolightly neo-hippy: Burning Man, Rainbow Gathering, Coachella. Wherever a man would take her and pay her way. She enjoyed a steady stream of the finer things in life, plus adventurous travel, etc., thanks to an eager string of men. By the time she was 25 or so, she also had a couple of kids from random bio-dads who are not part of her life.

Holly eventually came to live semi-full time at the residence inherited by my Aunt from my Grandparents. She would remain there for a period of 6 months, or a year, or maybe 2 years. She didn't have to pay rent, insurance, or utilities (her mom owns the house free and clear and covers its expenses), so all she needed to cover was her food, clothing and transportation. She would flit about town, holding down part-time jobs at cafes or at the small university, taking occasional classes, but mostly luring in a string of men who would buy her whatever her heart desired. A fancy dog. A car. A trip to Puerto Rico. Some blow.

During her high school years growing up in the big city, Holly had fallen in with a crowd of neíer-do-wells, headed by a small-time thug. Letís call him The Artful Dodger. Artful mostly made his living on the street corner selling colitas and nose candy. He was not a distributor. He was an end-of-stream guy selling individual packets for chump change to people in the neighborhood. Low-life scum.

Holly was not a complete slacker. As noted, she was in fact an entrepreneur who traded her natural resources for the largesse that men would provide in exchange. After she settled into my grandparentsí home in my small town, Holly sensed another opportunity. Soon, neighbors (mostly older people Ė like most small middle American towns, my home town is shrinking and mostly older people are the ones left behind) began calling my father and reporting that, about once a month or so, Artful would show up at the residence, and for the next several days there would be a string of cars containing young people stopping out front. A young person would leave a car, enter the residence, spend several minutes, and then emerge, stuffing an item into his pocket.

One day, young Master Smith, grandson of Paterfamilias Smith, got wind of the retail opportunities at my grandparentsí residence and decided to head over there for a transaction. However, when he showed up, Artful recognized him as a young man of (a) monetary means, wallet stuffed with cash, and (b) small town naÔvetť. Artful decided that, rather than complete the normal transaction, he would pull out his steel and lighten young Master Smith of his wallet. Apparently, Master Smith protested, in response to which Artful popped a cap into Smithís head. They then wrapped the body in plastic and put it into the trunk of Artfulís car, all under the spying eyes of the old folks living next door and peering through cracks in the blinds. Artful didnít get very far before he was stopped and busted. Heís now doing time.

Which brings me to you, and to me. Young Master Smith was a friend of our families. Our two families had deep history together. Now, heís dead.

The POS who killed him was Artful, a small-time thug from a city. Human detritus. There might be one person, some strung-out girlfriend or maybe a customer in need of a fix, who misses him. Itís easy to hate Artful for killing my friend, and in fact I do hate him. And loathe him. But I hated and loathed him before he killed my friend. He is human scum. Bottom of the barrel. Could I devote energy to figuring out some sort of revenge plot on him? Sure, but what is that ever going to get me? He is utterly generic, a caricature of a human, a person with literally nothing to lose. It would be a waste of my time. If Artful hadnít killed my friend, he would have killed somebody. He is a cipher.

My cousin, on the other hand, she is the vector that brought Artful into my family, physically inside my familyís home, and figuratively within my familyís social circle. He was poison, but it was Holly who decided it was okay to bring that poison into our lives. None of the other bad stuff would have occurred if Holly didnít choose to treat the sanctity of our family as a toilet. Holly is a pathetic character. She has been largely banished by the family. Last I heard she was living in a yurt in a hippie commune somewhere in the northwest, kids dirty and hungry. Good riddance.

My cousin is your WW. She decided to bring poison into your family circle. That poison has now infected you. You want to hate the poison, but all it is doing is what poison does. What the fuck was she thinking, bringing that beaker in and spilling it around the family? How does she plan to clean it up? How does she plan to help you get healthy again? She needs to be giving you a concrete plan that responds to these questions.

ĎNuff said.

As to your WW, I think itís fair to get in her face with questions like:

Please explain the logic behind your decision that it was a good idea to bring this man into our marriage, a man who would file a false police report on me. Clearly you thought it was a good idea to fuck this man and otherwise make him a secret part of our family. What did you think I was going to get out of that decision?


Please explain what you plan to do to fix this. I want to see that plan in writing by morning.

Iím being only half way facetious. From your description, your WW is basically cowering in a corner doing nothing. She owns this and yet is simply ostriching, hoping it will somehow go away. If I were you, Iíd probably be feeling things like (a) memories of the love I had for the woman I thought I was married to, (b) pain due to the realization of the truth that the woman I thought I loved does not actually exist, and (c) pity for the shell of a woman cowering in front of me. For me, I donít think I could muster hate, because the face would still remind me of the faux love. But I would certain find her pathetic, and feel pity.

Pity is of course no basis for a relationship going forward. Which brings me to my final bit of advice. Tell her that if she wants a chance with you, she needs to make herself into a different person, one who isnít pathetic, one for whom you can feel something other than pity.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 10:31 AM, September 7th (Friday)]

sisoon posted 9/7/2018 10:50 AM

STBXH, What you describe is normal, I think. I also think you've got yourself into a Drama Triangle, in which you play Victim, Rescuer, and Persecutor alternately. The way to stop spinning is to figure out what you're feeling - mad, sad, glad, scared, or ashamed. Then nurture yourself out of the feeling with supportive self-talk.

In general I treat anger as a sign I want something about my life to be different.

Some of those things I can change, at least a bit. LLBean changed the credit card provider and I got caught for a non-payment, because I missed an email. I was furious at first, calmed down, called Bean's customer service, and they removed the charges.

Some things I can't change. My W cheated. I wish wish wish I could have headed that off. That's just not possible in this life.

So I have a choice between stuffing my anger or expressing it and letting it go. It's unfair - but it's much, much better for me to just let the anger go.

Once one makes the decision to let this type of anger go, there are loads of techniques for actually doing it.

Yeah, I know. Much easier said than done.


I think this is a great question:

Please explain what you plan to do to fix this. I want to see that plan in writing by morning.
If your W is afraid to act but is otherwise a potential candidate for R (i.e. will do the work once she gets past her fear), this might get her moving in the right direction.

[This message edited by sisoon at 11:02 AM, September 7th (Friday)]

STBXH posted 9/7/2018 12:20 PM

Butforthegrace and Sisoon

thank you both for taking the time...

From your description, your WW is basically cowering in a corner doing nothing. She owns this and yet is simply ostriching, hoping it will somehow go away. If I were you, Iíd probably be feeling things like (a) memories of the love I had for the woman I thought I was married to, (b) pain due to the realization of the truth that the woman I thought I loved does not actually exist, and (c) pity for the shell of a woman cowering in front of me. For me, I donít think I could muster hate, because the face would still remind me of the faux love. But I would certain find her pathetic, and feel pity.

I certainly feel this from her most days. I'm disconnected and angry. I really don't think I should be this fucking wrecked this far along. I know it's only been a year but for the life of me there's something I'm just not receiving to help me. I got more TT the other night. New revelations. Pretty upsetting and hurtful stuff. She says she blocked it out. I called bullshit. Now I'm back to square one in processing all the info to move forward. Polygraph is coming.

I also think you've got yourself into a Drama Triangle, in which you play Victim, Rescuer, and Persecutor alternately.

BINGO! I'm done with it. I'm exhausted. She was "woman" enough to sneak around and lie to go fuck someone else and now she seems like a cowering child most days. I talk until I turn blue. I don't know if she will ever be a candidate for R. I thought we were in R and I had both feet in for a few months. Now, I'm nowhere near it. Maybe that's normal too.

Thanks guys. It's been a very lonely time for me and having friends like you guys really helps me navigate life.

Butforthegrace posted 9/7/2018 12:33 PM

STBX: She brought poison into your family. Confront her with the question: what is your plan to clean the poison up?

BrainFreeze posted 9/7/2018 14:16 PM

STBXH - You do not want to see me in head to toe spandex. Seriously... nobody does. And Honestly I feel like a total newbie here...I have messed up so much stuff.... but I will take a shot at answering and I hope it helps... .

As for the POSOM.. From day 1, I focused my anger at my wife. When I found myself starting to drift off thinking about him... I would remind myself that he had nothing to do with this. (This is my opinion I know it's probably not a popular one.

He never told me that he wouldn't try to fuck my wife.

My wife on the other had.... I expected more from her.

So, when I started getting angry with him, I actually focused back on her. This situation is ALL on her.

I have read, that venting anger at the POSOM is a way for us to protect the love for our wives. That makes sense to me, but I didn't do that.

I am a little ashamed to tell you that I did beat the crap out of a heavy bag, multiple times, while thinking about my wife. I have never laid a hand on her... I have never harmed her in anger, not once... not ever... but that heavy bag felt good...

Pro tip: If you are going to use the heavy bag... buy the wrist wraps.. .it's probably a good idea to get the boxing gloves too. My pinky finger on my right hand is going to be full of arthritis when I get older. It's already shaped funny... and it's 100% from hitting that bag with bare fists for a couple of days... my left wrist is a little fucked up too... It felt sooo good to feel that pain though if you know what I mean... so seriously... wrist wraps and boxing gloves.

All that said... you are still getting trickle truth...that's not good... It took my wife about a year before she told me the truth about everything... here's the thing that's eating me now though... She says I have the truth... all of it.... and most of the time I believe her, but when I get dark.... I don't know if I should believe her any more. I think that is because I am remembering what she did in the past and applying it to the present... but when I am dark... the anger, the pain...it's real in the present. I try very hard to focus on who she is NOW...that helps me.

Now she says sheís remorseful and I suppose is working on herself and being a safe partner (this is a slow process for her as she is not a quick study).

What is she doing to help you? Do you believe that she is NC now? Is she really trying to R? Once my wife made the switch from fence sitting to me, the feeling in our M changed. Things weren't magical, still aren't... but I could see she was earnestly trying. She was screwing some things up, but her path/trajectory changed drastically and I could honestly feel that. That's why I didn't file for D Nov 2017. The change was real and it was quick. I wish I had paid attention in all those English and Writing classes I took in High School and College, I could probably paint you a better picture...

You say she isn't a quick study... Can you read a book together? Discuss it, share ideas about the book? Maybe you can help her to understand? (Do you want to help her understand?? NO is a perfectly good answer by the way... I am not judging if the answer is NO) My wife and I are currently re-reading "Not Just Friends". The one about helping your spouse heal from your affair is another one that is highly recommended.

Is your wife super emotional? Could you have calm conversations with her about a book? My wife had a really hard time reading because of all the references to "The Wayward Spouse", "The one who cheated" etc etc ... she took it very personally, she just couldn't bear to hear those words because she knew it was true about her... I had to explain to her that I was not trying to rub her nose in it, rather I was trying everything I could to save our family, and that I couldn't stay if things didn't change. That seemed to help calm down my wife... FYI - I never did rub her nose in it. Still don't.

I'll raise a beer with you! Prost!

Butforthegrace posted 9/7/2018 18:38 PM

Brainfreeze mentioned the most important point, which I forgot: the "Vitamin B". I'm off for a couple of pints with some mates very shortly, at a very good local tap room. STBXH, I'll silently toast your success with my first Saison.

StillGoing posted 9/8/2018 00:29 AM

I'm mad at the AP because he INSULTED my wife by denying her. He did not defend her honor. How stupid am I? This takes up realestate in my brain. It's not as bad as my pain from the actual A but it still irks me. I need to get to "IDGAF", but that seems like an impossibility.

heh, sounds like you love your wife despite the hell she put you through. Sounds like you value her as a human being and want to honor and protect her. Sounds like you're a stand up fucking guy, and that, brother, is a goddamn pain that will never go away.

I hope she realizes the gift she has here.

STBXH posted 9/8/2018 00:45 AM

Alright boys...you all have been heard. Thank you butfor, I fucking love your posts. Brainfreeze, Iíll take a Dos Costas Saison...make it two. And Stillgoing, honor can truly be a curse sometimes. Thank you man.

StillGoing posted 9/8/2018 00:58 AM

What's a butfor?

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